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[…] Whither Spidey and Raimi now? adminPosted in Hollywood  Powered by Max Banner Ads Whither Spidey and Raimi now? The Beat: The News Blog of Comics CultureJohn Malkovich’s Vulture will exist only in the cinema of the mind, along with the version of Jedi where Lando dies and the last reel of the Magnificant Amberson. ‘Spider-Man 4′: What A Tangled Web It Wove VH1More Spider-Man woes as stage musical is stalled Hollywood Media Corp.View All (301) Comments […]

Cute … the Daily Bugle set reduced to a graphitti-covered two-story building.

Maybe I’d be more welcoming to a reboot if the studio had not already begun interfering with Raimi on the third one so that at least Raimi could have finished a trilogy that he could be proud of. Instead, he’s stuck with having directed a crappy film to end his Spider-Man period, and he has been robbed of any attempt to fix that.

It doesn’t matter anyway. Superhero films are going to begin a pattern of failure at the box office very soon.

The Ultimate Revenge of the Fallen would be if Sam Raimi and Tobey McGuire (sp?) were courted by DC for a competing superhero movie, say the Flash, (or whatever) for release to coincide with Spiderman 4.

As far as the committee-enhanced story and direction of Spidey 4, I can only imagine the fun…

[…] The most important question regarding the imperiled future of the Spider-Man movie franchise: Will J. K. Simmons still play J. Jonah Jameson? I haven’t seen it addressed in any of the (admittedly few) dissections of the (extremely lame) let’s-not-continue-this-successful-franchise-by-talented-people-but-just-reboot-for-no-reason development so far, but Simmons so owned that role that I think it’s the most pressing question. Maybe J.J.J. will get his own rebooted spin-off franchise, like I hear Venom was rumored to be getting…? […]

What Sony/Marvel should do:
Replicate the model of Harry Potter. The character is the star, not the actors or the directors.
Assign one person as the Ultimate Editor, perhaps the Production Designer, or someone with similar power and responsibilities. This person supervises an overall story arc of at least three movies, as well as the story of each separate movie.
The story editor would use the Levitz ABC Paradigm to allow for serial storytelling and introducing new characters.
Directors are assigned one film. Films are shot back-to-back. Each director can use his/her vision and skill in shooting the story, but the story must be followed.
By changing directors, Sony avoids the Lord of the Rings problem, where the director must juggle production and promotion schedules. It also prevents an auteur aura encasing the series.
Actors are signed to multi-picture deals, but re-casting is allowed.
By concentrating on story and character while minimizing stars and budget, Sony makes more money and Marvel emphasizes licensing and publishing sales.

Are they going to recast the actors for every movie? It is one thing to draw a teenage Spidey for years, but the actors will age, so you can only get one or two movies set in high school with the same actors. Even with Hollywood’s 25 year old teenagers, it would be impossible to create much continuity with the same actors in a high school setting. They should probably plan for new actors for every movie. It might be interesting if they actually got a new 16 year old actor to play Peter Parker every couple of years.

The sad thing is, I bet there really are people who see the Lord of the Rings as having a problem because they somehow didn’t more easily allow for a 2006 Hobbit movie starring Rupert from Survivor as Beorn.

We’re getting Spidey Twilight. If they could jam Morbius and Werewolf-by-Night in there, they would.

More Theater of the Mind projects which will never be…

- Shirley Temple as Dorothy in “The Wizard of Oz”

- Tom Selleck as Indiana Jones in “Raiders of the Lost Ark”

- Nicholas Cage as Superman

- Christopher Walken as Han Solo in “Star Wars”

Anyone have any others?

I think the David Lynch “Return of the Jedi” should top that list (well, as number 2 possibly).

John Lasseter directing “Where the Wild Things Are” for Disney.

Lasseter and Brad Bird animating “The Spirit”.

Bob Clampett animating “John Carter of Mars”.

And the all-time winner? “Little Nemo in Slumberland”, which, according to Wikipdedia, involved George Lucas, Chuck Jones, Hayao Miyazaki, Chris Columbus, Moebius, John Canemaker…

Oh, wait… the movie that should be remade: Isaac Asimov’s I, Robot. Screenplay by Harlan Ellison, using the structure of Citizen Kane. (EAN: 9780446670623)

I like Torsten’s list of project that may have been rather than just alternate casting choices. Agree on Little Nemo but I bet we wouldn’t have liked it much better than Altman’s POPEYE.

tobey looks really cute in that picture

…Ronald Reagan as Rick in CASABLANCA…

We live in a world where fans choice is to have Spiderman in high school forever. It’s that crap that made me stop buying comics. I’ll keep my movie money to myself too if they they keep it up.

Cater to the emo-boy crowd as much as they want. That’s a crowd that changes their mind as much as the direction of the wind blowing. Or as much as Hollywood changing directions of presenting movies.

Look at how the past “blockbuster” movies have gone. They do good and get good praise, then BAM, that crowd talks about how the movie sucked. Even though just five minutes ago they liked it.

Yeah at this rate the only good entertainment would be getting an hour glass and watching time go by waiting until I don’t have to put up with Hollywood anymore. It sucks that nothing can stay on a solid path anymore. It always has to derail and then start back at teh train yard again.

Turn Off the Dark? Are they serious? What the hell does that even mean?

I hope this does come out soon!

In that article’s comment section, a Broadway goer views the source material: “Bad enough the movie business is now completely driven by comic book fantasies, science fiction and animation, has our culture become so insanely infantalized that it’s seeping into live theater–once the province of intelligent, or at least mature, adults?”

Wow, so Marvel wants unsold comics in order to give an unsellable variant? Great idea!

Hmm, at first I was like “WOW! That’s ballsy!” but then I started thinking, retailers have to rip the covers off of (at least) $150. worth of product they paid for - even if they only sold those copies in the $1.00 bins (still $50.) - in order to get ONE Deadpool (pause for effect there. DEADPOOL. Yes, he’s popular right now. but DEADPOOL) variant cover to Siege #3.

I’m really curious if this does what Marvel is hoping it does? Keep us posted! (And just in case, I’m going to go double board my possibly soon-to-be-rarer Doom Patrol #4 now. LOL)

Has Bill Jemas got his old job back?

As a joke aimed at DC, the gimmick makes some sense, but it doesn’t make business sense. How intelligent is it to take 50 potentially salable comics, make them unsalable, and pay (cost of mailing, time, etc.) to get one copy of a potentially salable comic? The stores which have that many unsold copies of the DC tie-ins will probably have unsold copies of the Marvel tie-ins and SIEGE, too.

SRS

That is brilliant!

Now, now marvel you don’t have to overcompensate cuz YOU are now part of a huge coporate conglomerate. We still think youre bad ass! (even after that lame attempt to trump up the ‘controversy’ surrounding nemesis. I’m not a dc moonie btw, I love marvel!)

Stupid question–does “stripped” mean cut or ripped off the front of the comic?

it refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripped_book

Stupid question–does “stripped” mean cut or ripped off the front of the comic?

=======

Back when comics were returnable they usually weren’t returned in full, but the top part of the cover (showing the title and issue number) would be torn off each copy, saving effort and return shipping. Hence the line they used to have in the indicia saying “this publication cannot be sold with any part of its cover missing.”

What a D-Bag move on Marvel’s part.

Classy guys, real classy.

Also, this:
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/517631/698617.jpg

What an absolute dick move by Marvel. This does NOTHING for the medium, other than promote more petty bullshit between the big two. Disgusting. I’m not shocked at all that Dick Johnson is a fan. He’s the biggest Marvel shill/sycophant/kiss ass of all.

Of course, if it fails, Marvel gets embarrassed. If it succeeds…think how rare those DC tie-ins will be, and how happy their owners will be.

It’s juvenile bullshit on so many levels, especially with the “rules” of their game. By bypassing Diamond or any third party, there’s no one to verify how many covers they receive. They’ll totally fabricate whatever “participation level” suits their hype objectives. In a word, “Goofy.”

never fails to amaze how the big two always uses the retailers to promote and market with very little effort on their part , but expect tons of effort on the retailers part. as far as the big two are concerned the only beeyotches around are the retailers as they try to use them against their rivals.

Wait, wait…lemme see if I have this right…Marvel will take returns of DC books, but they won’t do returns on their own books. Does this sound messed up to anyone else?

This just in: Marvel will turn around and resell these stripped covers for $3.99 a piece. No backup stories or extra pages included.

Every retailer takes a gamble when they order event books in quantity. A lot of times they end up sitting on them, feeling lucky to unload them at a loss in the 25, 50cent, dollar bins. I’m sure that some (not all) retailers would welcome the chance to trade in on some of these gambles that went south. I mean, what retailer doesn’t remember Sovereign Seven cluttering up their stock rooms, while other people shouted about what a hit it was, ignoring the fact that it was the retailer’s money that payed for them? Is it a “dick move by Marvel?” I don’t think so. I think that someone at Disney understands that retailers might warm to the idea, that a comic book company knows who’s really paying the bills. It’s a competitive strategy. Something seldom seen since Diamond became the only distributor that stores could get big two books from. Competition breeds creative thinking. Creative thinking is always a good thing. Your move DC.

Reeks of desperations

Okay… What are the ICV2 numbers for the strippable titles?

Smart (and possibly speculative) retailers ordered the books, then sold the rings (Midtown had them for sale online) for extra profit.

Then you turn around and wait for Siege to take off. It’s been out a week or two. If it’s big (the previous two events haven’t been), then send in the covers, collect signatures on the variant, slap it, and sell the variant for $100+ (to cover the wholesale cost of the DC covers).

Smart retailers ordered conservatively on the Ring comics. speculative retailers didn’t. So Marvel is rewarding the speculators, while punishing the more responsible retailers.

Hey… Marvel didn’t say anything about NEWSSTAND covers, which I don’t think are different than DM covers. A newsstand distributor employee could strip the covers, conspire with a comics shop, and
split the profits. These titles were published in November?, so they could already be sitting in warehouses, already returned from retailers..

A guttsier move, and it’s coming, would have a publisher offer Marvel’s plan to COLLECTORS. “Rip off the covers, mail to us, and get a special premium.” In other words, treat the covers as box tops.

Or have a scratch-off game on the cover. Did you win? Great! You didn’t? Too bad, it’s no longer mint…

Heh… what if retailers protested crappy titles by mailing in stripped covers of crap they can’t sell?

Yes! A new protest movement! Don’t like the comic you paid good money for? Tear off the cover and send it back to the publisher! Post the stripped comic to a central website. Maybe make something creative from the comic, like origami or papier mache! Keep track of which issues get “beheaded”.

A lot of “smart” retailers probably ordered the books, and told their customers that if you wanted the rings, you had to buy the books. It was a promotion after all.

@Chris Moonlight
There’s no move for DC to make, if this was Chess, Marvel already lost. DC already make their late / solicitation changed / creator changed titles returnable. Marvel are the ones playing catchup, and this tiny little attempt at a gambit doesn’t begin to cover it. You can’t embarrass a company that already shows more retailer / flexibility than you do.

Now if it were stripped copies of Final Crisis: Aftermath books, _then_ it would be funny…

Once again to the outside world, and other publishers outside comics, we look like nutjobs. What a waste of time and energy.

Smartest thing you’ve said all year, Jimmy. (14 days in…)

It’d be nice if Marvel just concentrated and put this sort of energy into getting their titles out on time instead of resorting to these type of stunts and cooking up yet another unattainable variant.

“You can’t embarrass a company that already shows more retailer / flexibility than you do.”

Normally I’d agree, but it’s a brand new day at Marv-ney. Plus, Marvel has the edge as far as product goes, which I think is what they’re really trying to tell people with this move, above all else. Their printing is nicer and their art and story telling approach is far more contemporary. From where I’m standing (and all due respect) DC is the one with a lot of catching up to do. If that’s not so, then why is the WB moving their people in? The game hasn’t even begun to change.

Doesn’t seem like a leadership strategy designed to grow the industry or help retailers. DC’s ring promo was fun, upbeat and fresh. This feels like just the opposite.

Todd said:

“Now if it were stripped copies of Final Crisis: Aftermath books, _then_ it would be funny…”

No. if Marvel said they’d accept returns for the nine Deadpool titles they intend to flood the market with in March, then it would be funny.

Personally, I think this is Marvel attempting to be subversive, but for me it comes across as tawdry and squalid, and another nail in the coffin that is being constructed, by themselves, for DC and Marvel.

Is this from direct source, or maybe a hoax?

As a comic fan one of the worst scenes I could see is a comic stripped-out of its cover. I know the concerned Blackest Night tie-ins will bring more in the one dollar pin. I think it would have been wiser for Marvel to come-up with more interesting ideas and more creative projects (similar to what DC planned for 2010) instead of this move which only reflects hate and envy.

I just love seeing all the trumped-up ‘outrage’ by fanboys and numerous DC apologists over this stunt. Because Marvel’s marketing department just punk’d you, guys. The fact that nearly every DC-centric message board and blog is now talking about Marvel instead, after nearly a week a ‘big DC announcements’? The value of an ambush promotion like that is PRICELESS.

Hey, so the Disney era changes nothing so far. Good to know.

I agree that on the surface, it is a brilliant PR move for Marvel, in that it trumps Dc announcements and insinuates that DC comics are unsalable and worthless.

BUT, comics is a small industry, and mostly caters now to fans who purchase their thin little $4 comic books from direct market stores. SO, first, Marvel is insulting the retailer, who sells comics from BOTH companies, and who needs to do all this stripping work.

AND this all harkens back to the bad old days when comics as a whole were considered down market shipping ballast for distribution companies; periodicals intended to fill quiet hours on Charlton presses. Published by cigar smoking megalomaniacs and sold to slow and semi-illiterate juvenile delinquents.

Cover stripping? Man. Old school, wasteful and disrespectful.

Dear Zodcplmpex (I think the name says it all),

Clever calling me Dick Johnson (like I haven’t heard that before). As a former VP of DC Comics - yes I do like an admire Marvel and I admire DC. The reason I said this was brilliant is because it’s funny and in the end harmless. And it did what it was meant to do - attract attention to Marvel and their comics. And really how many retailers are going to go to the trouble of doing this? In the end is it really worth it?

This would be the move of a desperate or envious company if that company hadn’t captured almost half the market in December.

Am I wrong in thinking this is a win for retailers - if they bought the right amount of books, then they don’t participate. If they bought too many (either by overestimating the appeal of the ring trinkets or because of DC’s minimum order requirement), they can convert merchandise that is unlikely to sell into something that might.

As for the aesthetics of tearing the covers off books, the retailers should be allowed to do what they want with books they purchased (in the same way I am allowed to poorly store the ones I bought). But if it bothers you, then organize a movement to buy all the surplus issues - retails would make even more money and you would be putting your money towards the preservation cause. Win-Win.

ok..had overnight to think about this…

now, if retailers have over ordered these books and they arent selling them…and they can trade them in for a book they can make money on maybe…well..is that such a bad thing? think about it…

because marvel is offering this using dc books for the idea it comes off a bit different, but the idea is the same.

but that said, what if each company did this with their own books?

It’s not a bad idea if you take the idea to tour won company. maybe I am wrong?

guys?

“BUT, comics is a small industry, and mostly caters now to fans who purchase their thin little $4 comic books from direct market stores. SO, first, Marvel is insulting the retailer, who sells comics from BOTH companies, and who needs to do all this stripping work.”

Guess again, fanboy. Cover stripping is a widely-accepted practice in the publishing industry. Why would retailers feel insulted when someone is actually offering to take DEAD STOCK off of their hands in a trade?

And the idea of ‘comics being such a small industry’ is a joke, considering how many comic creators these days are mostly writing pilots for bigger media (TV, movies) with their comic book work. Some folks need to get out in the sunshine once in a while.

If I was a retailer, I would just have any customers interested in this variant buy the equivalent amount of DC books to the variant, and then just give them the variant minus shipping and handling charges once it comes in. Then, they have guaranteed money for items already not-returnable and bought, and aren’t inevitably stuck with a variant that won’t be worth anything a year from now anyhow. And then my Blackest Night copies all go up in value too.

KET, hilarious to have you label me as a fanboy. Nothing could be further.
And as far as the comic industry being small, well, put it this way, I never have to wait in line at the comic shop to buy a comic. The store is usually empty of customers even on Wednesdays.

However, yes, I have seen the local newsstand employees stripping covers off their magazines and dumping the remaining magazine into the recycling bin. They do it right at the main cash register.

But with the retail price of a non returnable comic at $4US, 50 covers are retail valued at $200. Are times so tough that retailers will toss out 50 recent back issue comics and mail away the strips for one comic variant?

I just think it’s the wrong message and can backfire when the retailers go the next logical step, and start to question whether they can send overstocked Marvel comics back to Marvel each month for credit, stripped or not stripped.

Wow I think the most amazing thing to come out of this whole thing is that people still use fanboy as something of an insult.

There are a lot of things that could go on here, and some of them are kind of funny.

If there truly is a bad taste in the mouth of many store owners over the number of issues they needed to order to get the rings, than this is a great PR move by Marvel to say “We are on your side and want to work with you.”

It’s also possible that many people will see this as a “d*ck move” by “evil Disney empire”.

One funny thing that might happen is further speculation. Someone above noted that some retailers were being speculative and looking to sell the rings, expecting them to be of very high value. Now there is an idea floating out there that Blackest Night tie ins may be getting destroyed en-mass. As someone who was reading/collecting books back during the comics bubble of the late 80s/early 90’s, I can just imagine the people out there that are thinking about this. I promise you that right now there are people that think this will increase the value of the tie ins by making them rare, which could actually drive the sales up for the Blackest Night issues.

So is it a possible win/win for Marvel. Are they scoring a PR win by showing they are on the side of the retailer? Are they “helping out” the retailer by generating demand for the competitors product? Are they just trying to drum up demand for their own Deadpool product?

Is Marvel an evil genius….?

Prob not, it’s prob just a d*ck move.

Here’s some ancient history - back in 1994-1995 Malibu Comics ran a similar program called Glutbusters. For a certain number of copies (I think it was 100, but I could be wrong) of Valiant, Dark Horse, Image titles that a retailer sent in (at their expense), the retailer would get 1 Ultraverse hologram comic in return (sent at Malibu’s expense). Malibu was overwhelmed - each retailer who participated sent in between 300-400 comics and thousands of comics came into the office. I’m sure many saw it as a dick move at the time, but the retailers who participated got a kick out of it and the hologram comics did have brief (oh so brief) value. The returned comics were driven down to San Diego where they were donated to the California prison system which was the only large scale organization that would accept them, and only if any adults only or “inappropriate” titles had been culled. I know, it’s prison, go figure.

[…] (via Publisher’s Weekly) […]

@Blacaucasian

That’s genius.

I don’t think normal fans would go for it but I am sure their are enough speculators still out there that would buy 50 books to get one rare comic, that comic shops can turn that off

Marvel have had their shorts in a knot about Blackest Night ever since it started. I am not sure why though. Why is this event any different from Identity Crisis, Final Crisis or any of the other books that end in Crisis that DC has been putting out for the last 5 years?

The sport equivalent of this would be the ice hockey where a team that is leading 9 - 0 late in the third period sends their goons out on the ice when the other team scores to make it 9 - 1. Marvel leads DC in pretty much every category. Why are they acting like douches about Blackest Night.

I just want to know who these people are that are buying super-expensive sketch variant covers…

A gimmick to get a gimmick? Everyone who participates gets what they deserve. Marvel, promote your underselling books that need the push: X-Factor, Spiderwoman and Incredible Hercules. Well, maybe Siege needs a push from what I’m reading in the reviews. If DC is reading, I’ve got a few Bendis books I wouldn’t mind destroying. I AM XORN!

@Blacaucasian

I’ll just echo Sequential Minded: Brilliant!

[…] From the moment Marvel sent out its DC tweeking press release late on Wednesday afternoon, Siege-for-Lanterns Topic A at BarCon and in private chatter. […]

I find Black Canary’s lack of underpants…disturbing. Also, the raised seam thing is, like, seau last decade?

Also also, will someone please burn that Huntress outfit in an imaginary fire.

I’ve been playing catch-up on Gail’s last run recently, though. Top. Notch. OOOOOOH, that Spy-Smasher. OOOOHH, she’s a bad’n.

Love that Spidey cover. I’ve noticed that the Iron Man in these books is wearing a retro little clanker that’s closer to the Red ‘n’ Yeller he used to wear before the sauce took him. Ditto the chibi Super Hero Squad version. The new suit Fraction et al have been talking about is likewise more of a skin-tight costume than anything since the Sean Chen era.

I wonder if that isn’t…and forgive me for statin’ the bleedin’ obvious, here…I wonder if that isn’t because somebody, somewhere, thinks that kids will find such a thing easier to draw than, say, Bryan Hitch’s Ultimate mecha.

Or is that just silly?

//\Oo/\

That Spidey cover is a lot of fun… come to think of it, the Marvel Adventures books typically have really great covers.

Matthew and Alex, I agree that the Spidey cover is nice. Good contrast between foreground and background, and excellent figure and colour. Easy to “read” the image.

Why would anybody taunt me with the idea of a Wes Anderson superhero film when it will never ever happen? Now I keep thinking about it and giggling incessently. *sigh* At least I can dream.

That Birds of Prey image seems to have a real Buffy vibe to it.

Likewise, Lightning Lad seems to be putting out an Anakin Skywalker vibe.

As for that MA Spider-Man cover, it is nice but where are all the people looking up in wide-eyed wonder? Everybody looks like it’s just another day at Midtown High… Maybe that’s the irony I’m missing. Back in my day, flying superheroes were always regarded with slack-jawed wonder by stunned pedestrians.

So glad they’ve decided to do Human Target by abandoning the core concept behind the Human Target? Just fantastic. ::rolls eyes::

In a non-sarcastic but equally frustrated tone:

Geez, Pretty much all the Milligan Vertigo stuff is highly cinematic and the first mini especially could be lifted as is and converted to a great teleplay. I don’t have high hopes for this.

BTW, we get it two days earlier in Canada.

Lightning Lad looks a like the long lost mascot of the San Diego Chargers. Just saying…..

I’ll give the dissenting opinion and say “Thank God Wes Anderson won’t be directing a Spidey movie.”

‘Easy to “read” the image.’

As long as you aren’t at all curious where the bottom half of his left leg is.

“I’ll give the dissenting opinion and say “Thank God Wes Anderson won’t be directing a Spidey movie.” ”

Oh, for sure it would be a terrible choice. But I still would love to see the result.

Love the blurb for the MARVEL ADVENTURES book:

…just like the comics from when you were a kid!

At last, they’re being honest about who the true target market is.

I hope the stories for LSH are better than the “new” costume designs. Yuck. They look like the worst of the 70’s to me. Lightning Lad’s costume is extra gay.

I hope the stories for LSH are better than the “new” costume designs. Yuck. They look like the worst of the 70’s to me. Lightning Lad’s costume is extra gay. And not in the nothing-wrong-with-that homosexual way. And before I get a lot of flak, I’m gay. And I want nothing to do with that costume.

And DC keeps trotting out series that maybe were fresh ideas back in…1982. Why in the world are they launching two LSH series, considering that Levitz hasn’t really been much of writing powerhouse presence in decades? It’s not like they really NEED two series, unless this is DiDio’s new gimmick for hogging more shelf space (”Two series for nearly EVERY superteam franchise that used to sell! It’s a can’t miss idea!”). Talk about watering down the concepts even further…

= Why in the world are they launching two LSH series, considering that Levitz hasn’t really been much of writing powerhouse presence in decades?

Comic industry version of the gold watch?

@LN: Damn you, now I can’t UNSEE it!

The difficulty I have with Marvel’s Siege reprint policy is that Marvel is under the misguided assumption that today’s comic books are a collectible commodity, instead of just a another disposable form of entertainment.( like magazines, novels, music, TV, and movies )
I love reading comic books, but I don’t buy them with the intent to resell them. If I really want to keep the story, I’ll invest in a trade or a hardcover. Viva la internet! Give me digital comics any day!

>>And DC keeps trotting out series that maybe were fresh ideas back in…1982. Why in the world are they launching two LSH series, considering that Levitz hasn’t really been much of writing powerhouse presence in decades?>>>

Ummm… soooo unlike Marvel trotting out yet another Wolverine title, or Spidey title, or better yet classics from the 70s like MS. MARVEL. Or DC pulling out the fresh ideas of… the Justice Society of America! How many “fresh” ideas do you actually see in the DCU or MU??

Speaking of fresh ideas, here’s one: Putting a writer on the LOSH that has respect, knowledge of, and passion for the characters. (And yes, I know someone will mention Shooter, but please… space prevents me from listing the galaxy-full of differences between these two men.) A writer that will… WAIT FOR IT…

Write THE LEGION OF SUPER HEROES!!!!! Not this faux-Legion crapola we’ve seen that has polluted the planet since… well, since Levitz left the last time. Supergirl and the LOSH?? The young hip happenin’ LOSH with the crappy cool hip characters?? PLEASEEEE!!!!

And the BEST NEWS: the REAL SUPERBOY!! None of this Conner Kent crapola… PLEASE just go away CK! Supergirl and the Legion? NO!! This will be the actual SUPERBOY and the LOSH!! AMAZING!!!!!

“Ummm… soooo unlike Marvel trotting out yet another Wolverine title, or Spidey title, or better yet classics from the 70s like MS. MARVEL. Or DC pulling out the fresh ideas of… the Justice Society of America! How many “fresh” ideas do you actually see in the DCU or MU??”

Why are you bothering to make a mindless comparison…Marvel is still selling product. When was the last time the LSH sold anything? Oh, that’s right..it was when Levitz was writing….back in 1982. Deja vu.

Here’s an idea for you…how about addressing the original question, for a change? Too hard for ya?

Levitz isn’t getting any younger, and he hasn’t been doing much writing at all lately to suggest that all of a sudden, LSH is going to sell so gangbusters that DC will need two titles to support it.

“Speaking of fresh ideas, here’s one: Putting a writer on the LOSH that has respect, knowledge of, and passion for the characters. (And yes, I know someone will mention Shooter…”

…and Waid and Abnett and Lanning and Giffen and the Bierbaums and Johns, and…am I forgetting anyone else still alive?

So dude, unclench and realize that Levitz isn’t the only one who can write this franchise effectively. And hardly enough people are going to be all that excited about Silver Age Superboy co-mingling with the team again, because he was ALWAYS BORING back then. But hey, go ahead and miss the point entirely all over again; I won’t be listening.

i like how the star of Human Target makes me feel so much smarter than he he.

is.

If I was still buying pamphlets I’d probably get excited about Paul Levitz writing the Legion again, I followed the book pretty solidly up until Abnett and Lanning took it over. Got to agree though, I can’t see it selling like hotcakes.

On a slight aside though, I wonder what DC and Marvel look for in terms of the lifespan of a new book. If a book hits 3 years and 36 issues is that considered good now? I can’t see anything new that’s being published currently ever hitting 600 issues, most I’d be suprised to see make 60 with the law of dimishing returns. Anybody any idea?

“I lead off the new run by destroying the homeworld of one of the characters.” I thought this was already a pretty tired cliche, particularly in the Legion (although the various reboots have given them more chances). If you’ve got a planet that has been developed at all, there are more story possibilities in retaining it than in blowing it up. Every planet is not Krypton. Every superhero is not Superman.

I just wish they would grow Saturn Girl’s hair back.

The way she looks, they should change her name to Saturn Boy.

“I lead off the new run by destroying the homeworld of one of the characters.”

…Gee, you think Paul has seen the last STAR TREK movie?

Oh, and getting a classic writer to revisit the LSH worked out great the last time, when it was Jim Shooter. If by great i mean undercut, overedited and pushed out to make room for the next flavor-of-the-month writer.

>>>Why are you bothering to make a mindless comparison…Marvel is still selling product. When was the last time the LSH sold anything? Oh, that’s right..it was when Levitz was writing….back in 1982. Deja vu. Here’s an idea for you…how about addressing the original question, for a change? Too hard for ya?>>

Well, for you kitty, I’ll try and go REAL SLOW to give you a chance to follow. Try and pay attention now… turn the Eminem off and concentrate. “Mindless comparison”? How is that mindless? The original post talked about the LACK OF IMAGINATION involved in bringing back the LOSH again… haven’t we tried that etcetc. THE POINT: (remember, concentrate really hard lil’ fella) is that bashing bringing back the Legion is just ridiculous when you’re dealing with companies that bring out title after title featuring, for instance (as I said) Wolverine, X-Men etc. AND… bashing bringing back the Legion, a classic by any measure, vs. the genius of bringing back MS. MARVEL (for instance) is also inane.

I guess what put the urine in your wheaties was that I picked on your precious Marvel comics. Your zombie mentality is showing. I guess you didn’t notice I faulted DC also… you just saw Marvel and started to pout and dash off a few (attempted) insults.

So… I WAS ADDRESSING THE ORIGINAL QUESTION ALL ALONG, if you were paying attention… or, is that “TOO HARD FOR YA?” (and wow, you stung with that scathing remark, you scamp!)

So what if Levitz isn’t getting younger. What does that have to do with anything? You think he can’t write anymore because he’s past 50? Fine. You stick to fine writers like Rob Liefeld or Jim Shooter.

“… and Waid and Abnett and Lanning and Giffen and the Bierbaums and Johns…” Again, YOU miss the point. Several of the writers you mention did not meet the criteria I mentioned. Sorry. Some are fine writers, but absolutely destroyed the real Legion. Giffen - Love him. Giffen on the Legion WITHOUT Levitz… not so much. Tom and Mary… again ok, but not on the same level as Levitz on the Legion.

Geoff Johns… ? I agree he meets the criteria for anything I’ve seen him touch. I guess I left him out because there’s no way in hell he’d be writing the Legion anytime soon. LOVED the miniseries. I wish he could write more, but hey, he’s only human.

I’m unclenched just fine, thanks. DUDE, I’d suggest you stick to something you know about before running off at the mouth.

As for Superboy (”silver age”… huh? He’s not just a silver age character, but I don’t guess you’d know that. You’re probably a rappin’ Conner Kent fan), he is an integral part of the Legion history. Boring? Your opinion, and like they say, everybody’s got one. Your opinion that I “missed the point” is so ignorant that I”d suggest you keep yours to yourself, but I suppose that never stops you.

And you may not comment, but I KNOW YOU’LL BE LISTENING.

I feel some sense of calm before the storm. Just a feeling.

Who knew Hibbs even had Marvel comics in his store? :>

Maybe if he mailed all those damaged comics in he could get a free Seige #3 variant.

I think this a classy move both on Marvel’s part and on Brian’s. No matter what previous history that there might have been, the move by a publisher to help out a retailer, far above and beyond whatever might be called for in any business transaction is A+ in my book. Marvel deserves the props for doing what they did and Brian is a class act for letting people know what they did for him. Good on both of ‘em!

Putting out the rings is really no different than asking retailers to buy extra copies of books (extra copies they will never sell) in order to get variant covers.

The ring promotion has been a great success with customers. Grown men and women going crazy over a set of cheap, plastic toy rings is just redonkulous.

Brevoort pretending to be all “We’re saving the retailers from their own stupidity” is indeed a return to the Jem@$$ era.

I liked Brian Hibbs line from his column:

“Finally, I kind of resent that we have situations like “Captain America: Reborn” being spoiled by its shipping late, where I think retailers have a legitimate right in asking for returns, and were rebuffed. Or things like the “Giant-Sized Hulk” fiasco where a book solicited as a softcover, instead shipped as more expensive premiere hardcover, which they also refused to take returns on.

And yet they’ll take DC books back from us now.”

I don’t have much to add because I both love it and hate it for reasons that everyone has expressed, but I will say this: that Hitler meme just does not get old.

Hmm… what….? Rings… stripped books…?

Did I miss something of interest here…?

I didn’t think so. Hey, everyone… I just picked up “Lola: A Ghost Story”, a great-looking book by J. Torres Elbert Or, from Oni Press!

Heh… DC could really slap Marvel in the face by:
1) shipping everything when and how DC said they would,
2) take returns for everything they got wrong, and
3) rubbing Marvel’s face in the wet spot and yelling “Bad Dog!” whenever Marvel fails to correct their mistakes by accepting Marvel’s returns for DC credit, making a nice big display at NYCC or CCI of those returns, and then donating those books to libraries and schools for a nice tax deduction and PR.

Hmm… what….? Rings… stripped books…?

Did I miss something of interest here…?

This coming from the man who was so disappointed by DC’s Genesis crossover mini that he mailed them back to DC’s top three execs in standard business envelopes?

“Beltway”? So this cottage industry is equivalent to Washington DC now?

As usual, Marvel’s marketing department gets the last laugh, and all the whiners get is bupkiss.

“We heard from a number of retailers who got stuck with books chasing rings and decided to do something. We’re not making any money on the deal, but we are helping our retailer partners during a tough economic time. Making sure that our retailers can keep the doors open if they tied up a lot of cash on inventory they can’t move. We’re doing this because we’re in the business of selling content rather than Cracker Jack prizes. And we need retailers to be able to keep the lights on and afford to order next month’s books. [Marvel won’t be accepting trade-ins for unsold Dark Reign and The List books] because there, what we were selling and what the retailers were buying were the books. But DC can if they want to! Retailers ordered those books for the content–that’s part of the job, knowing your clientele. I think smart retailers know how to gauge the interests of their clientele most of the time and order appropriately.”

You know i’ve read alot of bs on the internet over the years but this statement right there has to top the list. The idea that retailers got stuck with these books is laughable, all of these ring issues sold very well so well that most of them have second printings blowing this myth that overoders left shops with inventory that they can’t move.

Secondly, I had no idea that a couple of cool plastic rings would have grown executives so butthurt over at Marvel that they would get their little mickey mouse panties in a bunch and come out with a bitch move like this.

The fact is that Marvel just showed their hand instead of hyping up their big event which is going to take over the charts in the next few month, they instead chose to go at DC’s huge event proving that Marvel can’t take getting their ass beat on the top of the sales charts even when they are still selling more product overall.

Simply put DC isn’t the one who’s event Captain America Reborn flopped and is losing tons of readers issue to issue, they are not the ones who flopped with this Dark Reign non-sense that people cant’ wait to end. No they are the one’s who are doing events right and not only giving people a good book but with the ring promotion giving lesser books a boost in sales, I really hope that DC returns the favor so they can expose just how badly the current Marvel gimmicks and crap storylines have failed with even their most devoted zombies.

“This coming from the man who was so disappointed by DC’s Genesis crossover mini that he mailed them back to DC’s top three execs in standard business envelopes?”

No, that was a man at least 10 years younger than me, who was foolish enough to buy that kind of crap whenever it was put it front of him. I’m not sure whether to be flattered or concerned that his little protest way back then made such an impression on anyone.

“Defacing any comic is difficult for most of us, and the psychological damage of tearing apart stacks and stacks of Blackest Night tie-ins might have deep psychological repercussions for retailers.”

On the other hand, it might do them good. Perhaps Free Comic Book Day should be replaced with Destroy-A-Comic Day, with competitions for the most fun and inventive ways to do it.

“Defacing any comic is difficult for most of us, and the psychological damage of tearing apart stacks and stacks of Blackest Night tie-ins might have deep psychological repercussions for retailers.”

That’s one of the most ridiculous sentences I’ve ever read on this blog. As retailers, we have to destroy comics every other week or so when we do damage and overage returns. I’ve never hesitated to strip a cover off of anything. Honestly, I think it’s fun to tear into the things.

It’s just comics. It’s just product.

the great thing about a mass-produced product is that if something happens to one, you can just get another.

“It’s just comics. It’s just product.”

And this mentality is why non-Marvel or DC comics struggle to survive.

“And this mentality is why non-Marvel or DC comics struggle to survive.”

That has nothing to do with this argument or the point Adam was making, Mario. His point is that retailers are required to destroy product on a weekly basis, so acting like it is sacrilegious is silly.

As a small comics publisher and a retailer, I think that you are off on this. Plus, on a side note, destroying small press comics is something that we are almost never asked to do. I don’t mean to snap at your point, but Adam and I are both retailers who work at an incredibly indie friendly store. We carry tons of small press books and do whatever we can to help cartoonists trying to break in.

Smart retailers don’t have a dog in this fight.
We took pre-orders for the tie-ins and tied the sales to the rings for free.
All pieces accounted for, sold and 100% of our customers are happy.

BTW, all of the profits from incentive variants sold through the month of January at Green Brain Comics will be donated to benefit the survivors of the Haitian earthquake.

How exaggerated does a remark have to be in order to be recognized as sarcasm? Apparently more so than Heidi’s comment about stripping covers. Sheesh!

That video was great!

You know, this whole Marvel accepting DC returns is really all about Joe Quesada getting his Mickey Mouse panties in a knot because Green Lantern — GREEN LANTERN — is beating the shit out of Marvel titles that once dominated the top ten sales charts.

Seriously, both X-Men and Spider-Man were the hot buzz books for years and years before Joe Quesada took over. Now, X-Men has become a caricature and Spider-Man still retains the godawful stink from the single worst Spider-Man story ever told in the entire history of the character — the Joe Quesada OMD — a story that created a stink so bad, the stenc still lingers two years after the fact.

For those who can’t really see — here it is: Marvel’s been beaten, slammed by the Hal Jordan Green Lantern — a character who many clamed was old, stale, outdated and irrelevant for years.

If the outdated and irrelevant Hal Jordan Green Lantern can give Marvel’s Spider-Man and X-Men a slap in the face hard enough to get Marvel Execs all up in a tizzy, what then does that say about the quality of Marvel Comics?

Yeah, Joe’s panties are in a knot. Next time though, he may want to try quietly using Summer’s Eve. We can still smell him coming a mile away but at least if he douched in private, he’d make less of a public spectacle of himself and the company he helms.

Pretty sure I wouldn’t have enjoyed it. Pretty sure, yup.

Malkovitch as the Vulture woulda been great. I’d have paid ten bucks to hear him say “I splash the focking pot if I want!”

You know what? That WAS pretty awful. Way to go, Raimi. I’m actually siding with Sony on this one and thinking it would be much better with Black Cat.

He… he KILLS the Vulture…?

Jeez Louise, I’m kind of glad this won’t see the light of day.

Yeah, that movie would have totally blown chunks. What I don’t understand is that the longest-running movie franchise (James Bond) has been going for like 50 years with something like 25 films. Bond’s name is NEVER in the title, and (save for the last one) are never “continued” from the last film, and never have a number in the title.

What is wrong with this paradigm? It obviously has worked for Bond how come no one understands that it can also work for a comicbook hero with essentially the same longevity.

Come on! I understand the need to “tweak” existing material so that it will translate from the illustrated page to the silver screen, but is it really necessary to stray so far from the path of what has gone before?

Pick a Spidey epic, trim the fat and (unnecessary) comic continuity, and just tell a friggin story. Seriously, how hard can that be?

And not for nothing, not only would Vulture have been a wicked-cool villain, but Malkovich (an Oscar-level actor) would have been incredible in the role.

All of which is our loss as fans.

If that was indeed the storyline, my deepest thanks to the Sony execs for pushing the Emergency Stop Production button. The last thing we needed to see is Anne Hathaway decked out in Vulture gear all pissed off at Spidey for killing her father, let alone Peter getting rid of his superpowers without even getting it on with Lois Lane underneath silky silver sheets in the Fortress of Solitude.

I usually don’t like watching superheroes murder old people in 3-D. But I’m just old fashioned like that.

I don’t think the Bond analogy works well. Bond is a relativelly generic hero; the Bond girls are there more for their looks than for their acting abilities. Bond’s attraction to a woman lasts no longer than Captain Kirk’s attraction to a woman in Star Trek: TOS. The stars of a Bond movie are the villain and the special effects (up through the Brosnan movies, at least). Fans of a comic book character need to connect more to the star of the movie.

The plot doesn’t seem so bad within the context of a comic book series; a reader knows that something will happen to convince Parker to put on the costume again. For general viewers, though.unless the dramatic impact was tremendous, the ending would have been depressing, terrible, or both. The ending would have killed merchandise sales, too.

SRS

Doesn’t say in the script synopsis that Spider-Man murders Vulture. Difference between murder and killing someone.

Hasbro makes lame-@$$ed toys made in China, possibly contaminated with lead or cadmium, and THEY get to have a say in how a movie is written?

They really need to return Spidey to it’s 1960’s roots. Do it as a period piece, Mad Man style. Set it in the 60’s. Have Betty Brant as the first girl friend…have him fight the Chameleon and the Tinkerer. Show him actually sewing the costume and making the web shooters using bits of metal and brass from his childhood train set and the web fluid using a $10.00 chemistry set in his bed room while Aunt May is calling him for supper….old school…that is the way to go.

Too bad, because if there’s one thing the Spider-Man movies have lacked, it’s somber explorations of What It Means To Be A Hero involving people walking away from other people in slow motion.

@Alan Coil

If the vulture dies accidently in a battle with Spider-Man, that’s the plot to the first one, only this time Pete is sleeping with Harry. Depending on the director, I welcome a change, I’m just concerned about audience confusion.

Point. Collins.

“Basically, after seeing AVATAR, Raimi wanted to bringing more state-of-the-art SFX…”

Huh? What’s wrong with the current CGI. It’s not like we’re going from miniature models on strings to computer generated images. CGI has been looking really good lately. Avatar, is just a better version of what we already have. Why hold a movie off for that?

AWESOME comments! I laughed out loud numerous times (Matt, Charles, Jesse, Sean).

Even if Spider-Man didn’t actually murder the Vulture, that would make at least four villains in four movies that died after facing Spidey (Goblin #1 and 2, Doc Ock, Vulture - did Venom die?). It would be strange to have a movie universe where Peter tries to make up for his uncle’s death by becoming a super-hero and “accidentally” killing every villain he fights. If this was indeed the plot Raime had apparently ran out of tricks, as movie #4 sounds like a combination of bits and pieces from the previous three.

Oops, my last comment was accidentally cut off.

I meant to continue; just focus on the story and cgi will take care of itself. Holding out for SFX gimmicks is rarely a good idea. It may have worked for Avatar, but that’s a once-in-a-decade event type of film. How photorealstic does a preexisting New York need to be?

Too bad, because if there’s one thing the Spider-Man movies have lacked, it’s somber explorations of What It Means To Be A Hero involving people walking away from other people in slow motion.

Heroism that make other people feel uncomfortable, guilty, ashamed, angry, etc., is great in the context of a single story, but the SPIDER-MAN series is supposed to be a franchise. The budget for SPIDER-MAN 3 was $258,000,000, and since the international market is important — the international revenue was higher than domestic revenue for all three films, about $118 million higher for SPIDER-MAN 3 — the movie has to appeal to people who might know very little about the character. An ending that leaves viewers feeling disappointed, upset, depressed, angry or any combination of those emotions makes it unlikely that they would be eager to see the next Spider-Man movie — and the screenwriter would have to come up with a way of having him resume his crime-fighting career that didn’t seem forced or artificial.

Remember the ending to STAR TREK II? People didn’t think they would actually leave Spock dead; as it turned out, they didn’t. Leaving him dead might have been justifiable artistically, but doing so would have left a hole in the series that would have been impossible to fill. The franchise likely would have been doomed.

A story that might be wonderful within the context of a series, where readers know about the character, can be terrible in a movie that has to appeal to the general, uninformed public.

SRS

Good points, Synsidar. It also ties into why a lot of people think Spider-Man 2 was the best of the three movies. In addition to having a great villian played by Alfred Molina and a plot that went beyond the origin story, the ending was surprisingly a happy one.

Spidey is beloved by the people of New York, Mary Jane knows his secret identity, and she even breaks up her own wedding just to be with Peter Parker. At the time, I remember one review saying, “Wait a minute. Is it possible that the hero actually gets the girl?!?!” Angst has been a huge component of superhero movies since Superman, where Clark Kent pines for a woman that cannot be his. But Spider-Man actually ending up in a happy relationship? Revolutionary!

“did Venom die?”

Peter threw a Pumpkin Bomb at the symbiote, which had separated from Eddie Brock and been trapped in a cage with no roof. Eddie leapt in to try and reuinte with/save it, and was caught in the blast. They both died (c.f. the Unity Festival scene with Confusingly Jonah-Looking Man and Confusingly Professor X-Looking Man*). So, yeah. Peter Parker is a big murderer, ET FRICKIN’ CETERA.

Honestly, this Vulture story sounds like it would have made Spider-Man 3 look like Spider-Man 2. We’re all well out of it.

//\Oo/\\
(* - seriously: one of the other board members looked like one of Alex Ross’ models from Kingdom Come! An Easter Egg too far!)

In movie # 3, Peter didn’t count on Brock being so devoted to - brainwashed by? - the symbiote as to be willing to take a bullet with and for it. Unintended consequence of an act of self-defence.

This proposal for # 4, though…iffy idea there.

[…] I’ve got mixed feelings about this news.  I’d already detailed some of the earlier squabbling between Sony and Raimi and my concerns that the franchise was headed for cinematical disaster.  While I blamed Sony initially, now that there’s more details leaking out about the take Raimi wanted to do with the film, it’s starting to look like taking the series away from Raimi wasn’t such a bad call after all.  The plot (if you want to call it that) sounded like a bad rehash of the 2nd Spider-Man movie, and it would have in all likelihood been worse than Spider-Man 3 was. […]

I don’t believe this explanation or plot synopsis for one second. Avatar-envy? A piecemeal plot cobbled together from the first two movies? I’m sure if anything, this crap was invented by the Sony execs themselves as a way to let the door hit Raimi on his way out. He certainly has his own flaws as a director, but I’ve seen his personal movies (Drag Me to Hell), and I will never believe that he was having technology envy.

I’m no longer the age where I should get to vote on imaginary big box office pictures, but I would have been happy to see this movie (at home, months later) were it good, and will be happy to see a reboot (at home, months later) if it’s good enough to push past my level of automatic disinterest on seeing a familiar story again.

Lots of fine movies sound dumb in synopsis form.

I think the most interesting thing about this in terms of the comics is that the comics have no ending or even late second/third act — none I take seriously, anyway. I can argue one in the original run of comics, but it depends on closure with Mary Jane that the structure or the original movie makes impossible. So it would have been interesting to see someone do a couple of films that provided an ending to the Spider-Man story, in the same way it would have been interesting if this new James Bond stuff had been focused on ending that story rather than re-telling it.

“Friend!”
“Iron Man Friend!”
“Special Iron Man Friend!”
“Friend!”

Sorry, been watching The Inbetweeners again.

Didn’t I see this back to back thing at the end of the Woverine movie?

~

Coat

I was told at my job interview at the Disney XD network for a TV Research Associate (sorry I didn’t get the gig, sigh) that all the new Marvel animation series such as Iron Man: Armored Adventures and Wolverine & The X-Men are losing their licenses to run on the Nicktoons network and are headed straight to the XD network.

~

Coat

(Spell) check please!

Lady Gaga would be perfect for the role. But really, we need John Lasseter to get involved with Marvel! Frozone needs his own book, set in the ’70’s with some Gil Kane/Johnny Romita Sr. inspired cityscapes.

I want MAR-ney [Dis-VEL?] to hire Harlan Ellison for that NC-17 reboot of “Howard the Duck”… and I hear he does a spot-on Mickey for a cameo!

Marvel West Coast. It’s gonna happen.

Is Kylie too old to play Dazzler?

That’s who I thought she was supposed to be when I reading some of the recent Fraction issues of UXM.

haha, re: Dazzler: HSM!!!

“Note: It is possible that Marvel’s acquisition by Disney may have some impact on this project.”

As might, Dubai World’s recent plans to restructure the repayment of 26 billion dollars worth of debt, which managed to rock global financial markets last week (although that seems to have settled down a bit in the days since then.)

(Tangentially related, yesterday’s NPR’s “Planet Money” podcast discussed Dubai, interviewing a Canadian woman who’s worked in Dubai for a few years. It’s an interesting–and different from the usual–view of the place…)

I’d heard the total debt figure quoted as $60 billion. Wonder if the 26 is a subset of that.

I think that’s it exactly. this article talks about Dubai World having $60 billion in debt and that seems to indicate that this recent debt restructuring plan addresses $26 billion of that amount.

Thanks for the clarification, Ali.

As for Disney, I’d suspect there might be a buyout clause for use of the characters, assuming that Marveland is still in progress at this point. But when you’re talking about this much money, things get wacky and the rules change.

Wow, did anyone read this article from that site?

http://disneyandmore.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-disney-will-never-build-theme-park.html

Eye opening. I find the debt law portion of this article extremely ironic, given what’s now happening to Dubai, debt-wise. Perhaps they should all imprison themselves…. Ah, but that would never happen. (Dubai, personally, scares the crap out of me. I would never visit.)

How can you not love the idea of a theme park built on slave labor?

That article should be required reading for anyone who’s even heard of Dubai. Thanks for the link.

Advanced reading on the subject: EVIL PARADISES, which covers Dubai, Shanghai and more. From a decidedly Marxist perspective, though I think most of the material was written before the top of the bubble, so the gloating may be at a minimum.

As I’ve said from the beginning….everything in Dubai is full of fail!!! This is ridiculous that they are stull planning this!

You CANNOT, repeat C-A-N-N-O-T rescue nor create a country based on multibillion dollar tourism projects!

But we’re not going to be here in 2012.

Didn’t anybody see the movie? We have to open it in 2011!

~

Coat

I wonder what the Carl Ichan (spelling?) and Ron Perlman (spelling?) rides will be like?

that’s an expensive stick!

What about the Avengers movie?

~

Coat

It’s so hard to put a price tag on a man’s efforts. Well, okay, how about $20.4 million.

he’s definitely getting the short end of the stick, large payment notwithstanding.

I’m surprised he’s out so quickly, I mean, he was only there a couple of years anyways! O.o

Marvel… tread lightly. Both comics are enjoyable reads, offering accessible stories for young and old. Spider-Man does have an ongoing storyline, but it is uncomplicated and easy to follow.

IF Marvel can keep the qualities which already exist while expanding the line, then I will be happy.

Might the second Marvel FCBD title be a revamped MA tie-in?

I really really hope they don’t screw around with this too much. The books don’t need to be revamped because they just did that. They just need new #1 issues so people feel like they have a better entry point and they need to market the relaunch aggresively.

They need to keep the great artists they have on covers (Skottie Young is knocking his Spider-Man covers out of the park, ditto for Niko Hendrikson and Chris Samnee on MA: Super-Heroes). They could possibly ramp up the interior art as well. Instead of letting it be a try-out for up-and-coming artists (most of whom, don’t get me wrong, are very good, especially Matteo Lolli and Ig Guera), bring in guest artists that are big names at Marvel to draw people who might not otherwise read the MA books. Hopefully they’ll realize how good they are and stick around.

Honestly, I wonder if the best idea might not be to just due a big 64 page monthly MA anthology book, with Spider-Man as the constant regular feature and rotating stars in the other stories. That would be able to cover a large canvas and might even help entice big names to illustrate stories, since there is less of a long-term commitment. And they could occasionally, as a special thing, devote the entire 64 pages to one big story.

I don’t know what will work best, but Marvel just needs to not ditch the MA line. Kids will read comics, they just need to be good and they need to be sold where kids can get them.

It’s a shame that DC doesn’t really have a current line of books for older kids. Tiny Titans and Super Friends are great, as are the Cartoon Network books, but why can’t they also have something similar to MA for kids who want something closer to the excellent animated shows, and without all the screwing and dismemberment? Or hell, why can’t they have a line like that for me?

Agreed. I’m not sure why the books need a revamp (unless the sales have been so low that they can’t financially do it. It’s never been clear to me where these sold.) But my 7 year old son and I have read Spiderman and Avengers since the beginning. I used to read them and now that he’s older I find him re-reading issues again and again. The books have been consistently funny and interesting and done in one (and he loved the Mini Marvels back-ups too, until they stopped.) Let’s hope they have agood plan and keep the good stuff they have going.

>>They just need new #1 issues so people feel like they have a better entry point and they need to market the relaunch aggresively.

Agreed on the aggressive marketing - the books already do really well in my shop, but we go out of our way to have a notable all-ages section and I don’t know that most shops do that. Retailers need to know they can really cultivate a family market. It’s very viable.

As for relaunching with a new #1…do the kids these are targeted at really care? My experience has been that they just gravitate to favorite characters or properties and issue numbers are all but meaningless to them. Which is pretty much how it should be if the plan is for these stories to remain fairly self-contained.

“As for relaunching with a new #1…do the kids these are targeted at really care? My experience has been that they just gravitate to favorite characters or properties and issue numbers are all but meaningless to them. Which is pretty much how it should be if the plan is for these stories to remain fairly self-contained.”

I agree that most kids don’t care about numbering (though I was way into getting first issues as a kid, myself). However, since they don’t care, but the older readers (even older kids) tend to, I think it makes sense to both relaunch with new first issues to capture anyone who would be captured by such a thing and market the books properly so that anyone can get them, regardless of whether or not they care about numbering.

I thought I heard the book was going to be relaunched as “Disney /Marvel Adventures- paving the way for The Beat to resume her “Adventure On” duties.

I will live to see the day for my all time requested team up issue of Dr. Christopher Syn and Spider-man play out.

~

Coat

Cary Coatney - I’d LOVE to see a team up of Dr. Christopher Syn and Spider-Man! Yeah! I loved that Dr. Syn film, The Scarecrow of Romney Marsh. And in high school, I managed to actually track down a couple of the old Dr. Syn novels by Russell Thorndyke.

That’s to bad, my stores sell the digests quite a bit.

Yup, if Disney crossed over their characters with the ones they purchased from Marvel and made those their kids comics, then we wouldn’t see the Marvel Adventures so far at the bottom of sales ranking.

Where’s my “additional reporting by” credit on this article?

Here’s a novel idea, why don’t Marvel return to their pre Quesada policy and make all of their MU superhero books suitable for all ages without talking down to the readers. In other words, the current stories minus the cussing (words like bitch,bastard,ass,and goddamn would be forbidden),the on panel gory and bloody violence,and strongly implied sexual innuendos (subtle sexual innuendos would be OK). Of course, that would make to much sense and upset those elitist creators and fans who insist that Marvel (and DC) superhero comics need to be “mature” and appeal to their own adult tastes.

Saying that all comics should be all-ages is as silly as suggesting Marvel and DC make all their title to be Mature Audiences Only, why alienate a group of fans when you can have a variety of books that appeal to every kind of reader?

“Saying that all comics should be all-ages is as silly as suggesting Marvel and DC make all their title to be Mature Audiences Only, why alienate a group of fans when you can have a variety of books that appeal to every kind of reader? ”

_________________________________

Know one here is saying that ALL comics should be for all ages. However, (and speaking ONLY for myself) I think that ALL Marvel and DC INTERCONNECTED MU and DCU superhero comics should be suitable for all ages without talking down to the readers. To have variety of comics that are part of the SAME INTERCONNECTED CONTINUITY/UNIVERSE be aimed at different age groups is not only silly, but pretty damn stupid. It’s like throwing a childrens birthday party,a teenage house party,and a swingers sex party in the same single family house at the same time.

“To have variety of comics that are part of the SAME INTERCONNECTED CONTINUITY/UNIVERSE be aimed at different age groups is not only silly, but pretty damn stupid. It’s like throwing a childrens birthday party,a teenage house party,and a swingers sex party in the same single family house at the same time.”

That analogy only works if the comics for all those various groups were printed in the same anthology magazine (ie: a house). A universe is not a house.

— Rob

PS: Sure, Marvel is the House of Ideas, but that’s Marvel Comics, Inc., not Earth-616.

A look at some recent issues indicates that Marvel, using its current system, would not produce interesting comics, using an “All ages” approach. For example, MARVEL DIVAS had a “Parental Advisory” rating. The only reason for that rating that I could see was the breast cancer subject matter. NEW AVENGERS, SIEGE: THE CABAL, DARK AVENGERS, Ms. MARVEL, DOCTOR VOODOO — they all have the T+ rating, despite not having offensive material. Slott’s MIGHTY AVENGERS has an A rating.

If MARVEL DIVAS had a “Parental Advisory” rating because of breast cancer, what rating would Englehart’s classic WEST COAST AVENGERS storylines, which had Hank Pym contemplating suicide and Mockingbird letting the Phantom Rider fall to his death (his ghost later haunted her) because he’d raped (implied) her while using mind control have had? Those are among the best storylines Marvel has ever done, but they would have never seen print under an “All Ages” approach.

The hero vs. villain conflicts are just too predictable to be interesting over an extended period of time. The character-oriented subplots are where excellent writers shine, and having characters react intensely or explosively can require material that’s not suitable for kids.

SRS

I don’t have a problem with the All Ages books, it’s just that they are surely not getting into the hands they are made for because of limited DIAMOND DISTRUBUTION, not that they exist.

Shouldn’t Marvel/Disney be powerful enough now to make some real changes to comic book market?

“That analogy only works if the comics for all those various groups were printed in the same anthology magazine (ie: a house). A universe is not a house.

— Rob

PS: Sure, Marvel is the House of Ideas, but that’s Marvel Comics, Inc.,”

___________________________________

But the characters from those various comics of crossover with and/or guest star in each others comics or are featured in major crossover mini series together. So my analogy does work. How much sense does it make to have an all ages X-Men book with Wolverine as a member, but have a Wolverine solo book with a PARENTAL ADVISORY warning or have Moon Knight guest star in an all ages Spider-Man book, but have the ongoing MK book with a PARENTAL ADVISORY? So a little kid who likes either Wolverine or MK can’t read their solo books because they are not old enough. That’s bad business IMO.

“A look at some recent issues indicates that Marvel, using its current system, would not produce interesting comics, using an “All ages” approach. For example, MARVEL DIVAS had a “Parental Advisory” rating. The only reason for that rating that I could see was the breast cancer subject matter. NEW AVENGERS, SIEGE: THE CABAL, DARK AVENGERS, Ms. MARVEL, DOCTOR VOODOO — they all have the T+ rating, despite not having offensive material. Slott’s MIGHTY AVENGERS has an A rating.

If MARVEL DIVAS had a “Parental Advisory” rating because of breast cancer, what rating would Englehart’s classic WEST COAST AVENGERS storylines, which had Hank Pym contemplating suicide and Mockingbird letting the Phantom Rider fall to his death (his ghost later haunted her) because he’d raped (implied) her while using mind control have had? Those are among the best storylines Marvel has ever done, but they would have never seen print under an “All Ages” approach.

The hero vs. villain conflicts are just too predictable to be interesting over an extended period of time. The character-oriented subplots are where excellent writers shine, and having characters react intensely or explosively can require material that’s not suitable for kids.

SRS ”

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Ah, you hit on a key problem with the CURRENT Marvel editorial and publishing regimes current rating system. Many (NOT ALL) of the current editors and creators running Marvel (and DC) either have forgotten or never understood or knew about the art of writing and drawing books in “layers”. They think that an “all ages” book has to either (a) talk down to the readers (b) be campy or goofy (c) stray away from all manner of mature subject matter (d) be light hearted and not dark (e) can’t contain multiple ongoing subplots and (f) can’t show people getting killed on panel (much less use the words “kill” or “murder” in an all ages book). They seem to either have forgotten or didn’t know that before Quesada became EIC, MOST interconnected MU comics were ALL AGES CODE APPROVED comics, that often delt with mature subject matter in a tasteful and all ages manner without talking down to the readers.

Yeah! As we all know ratings are perfect because the film industry has eliminated the ability of underage persons to watch rated R films. Stupid Marvel and their rating system which completely prevents kids from reading a lot of their current mainstream product.

“Yeah! As we all know ratings are perfect because the film industry has eliminated the ability of underage persons to watch rated R films. Stupid Marvel and their rating system which completely prevents kids from reading a lot of their current mainstream product. ”

________________________________

I see you’re trying real hard to miss my point.

“I see you’re trying real hard to miss my point.”

No. We just think your point is patently ridiculous, Wraith.

— Rob

“No. We just think your point is patently ridiculous, Wraith.

— Rob ”

________________________________

What is so ridiculous about my point? What is it about making all INTERCONNECTED MU and DCU superhero comics more appropriate for all ages that offends you so much? Do you feel embarrassed to be reading a comic that doesn’t contain any profanity,on panel full depictions of gory and bloody violence,or strongly implied sexual situations?

No. We just think your point is patently ridiculous, Wraith.

Wraith did make useful points about material in the past having adult material, yet being accessible to younger readers. A skilled writer can write at two levels within one story. It’s easy to generalize that a writer should be free to write to the age level that he feels is appropriate, even if the result is a MAX series, a lot harder to prove that doing a superhero story as a MAX series is the only, or even best, way to do it. Tossing in four-letter words, nudity, and gore doesn’t automatically make a story more “mature.”

SRS

Does anyone know how and how well these sell outside the direct market? Because the sales figures I see aren’t good enough for the line to continue.

Cormorant Says:

“As for relaunching with a new #1…do the kids these are targeted at really care?”

Probably not. In simpler times, I was buying comics (or, more accuraetly, my parents were buying them for me) off the convenience store rack, and I didn’t really know much about issue numbers. I think around age seven or eight is when I began to realize that Marvel didn’t just publish a whole bunch of Spider-Man titles, but they were different — Marvel Tales, Peter Parker, etc.

The renumbering is probably lost on kids … and might be confusing to the parents who purchase them for kids. It got pretty confusing for me, which might be another reason I don’t follow comics much anymore. Just how many Number 1 issues has Super-Girl had over the past five years?

I think it’s a good idea to have a Marvel Adventures line, a mainline Marvel Universe, and a MAX line. Apparently, so does Marvel. Marvel Adventures is aimed at all ages. Mainline DCU is aimed at a teen level, and MAX is made specifically for adults. Marvel Adventures to get them in the door, Marvel Universe to give them what they want, and MAX to let them cut loose. Where’s the problem?

Most Marvel Universe titles are fine for teens and up, and that’s a good place to be. A lot of Marvel books could benefit from the firm hand of an editor, but making huge changes to dialog and art could alter the whole tone of the book and not for the better.

Where’s the problem?

I think that ALL Marvel and DC INTERCONNECTED MU and DCU superhero comics should be suitable for all ages without talking down to the readers.

The Parental Advisory rating for MARVEL DIVAS seemed silly. Breast cancer shouldn’t be a sensitive subject for kids.

If Marvel’s rating system is based only on superficial impressions of content, images, and dialogue, and not on content as a whole, then it’s pretty much useless. It would be better to have the MAX line for adults, to promote the Marvel Adventures line as material for children, and to not rate the mainstream MU titles. Given the readership of the MU titles, I can’t see how the ratings impact buying decisions anyway.

SRS

“Most Marvel Universe titles are fine for teens and up, and that’s a good place to be. A lot of Marvel books could benefit from the firm hand of an editor, but making huge changes to dialog and art could alter the whole tone of the book and not for the better. ”

The thing is, before Quesada became EIC, most MU titles (with the occasional mini series,graphic novel,or magazine series being the exception) were fine for people of all ages because they were able to speak and appeal to readers of all ages on various different levels.

And if the current T+ and PARENTAL ADVISORY MU titles switched back to their pre-Quesada level of all ages content, the changes to the art and dialogue (a) wouldn’t be all that huge and (b) wouldn’t alter the whole tone of the books.

Synsidar Says: 12/25/09 at 5:05 pm Where’s the problem? On 12/24, Wraith posted: I think that ALL Marvel and DC INTERCONNECTED MU and DCU superhero comics should be suitable for all ages without talking down to the readers. "I share the sentiment. " I don't. "If Marvel’s rating system is based only on superficial impressions of content, images, and dialogue, and not on content as a whole, then it’s pretty much useless." It is useless except for the sole reason for its existence. To keep an outside body from imposing a ratings system upon them. Same reason the MPAA exists. Most MPAA rulings are stupid too. You can say FUCK in a PG-13 film and you guys are complaining about what's acceptible in the comics?! "It would be better to have the MAX line for adults, to promote the Marvel Adventures line as material for children, and to not rate the mainstream MU titles." Bad idea. Already said why. "Given the readership of the MU titles, I can’t see how the ratings impact buying decisions anyway." They probably don't except to ward off parents who might consider buying a T+ book for a 7 year old. Wraith Says: 12/25/09 at 8:26 pm "The thing is, before Quesada became EIC, most MU titles were fine for people of all ages because they were able to speak and appeal to readers of all ages on various different levels." 1. You have it out for Quesada, and judging by your comments on the sales threads, this is a possibility. or 2. The two things are unrelated as the ratings system was just starting to be utilized and navigated around. Before Quesada, Marvel was in the tank and nobody wanted to work there. Lots of people forget that little technicality. Also, before Quesada when comics were so kid-friendly, Wolverine called Sabertooth a kike. Now that's good, all-ages fun! The only way to make the change you're talking about is to listen to Robert Kirkman, but there's no way that's gonna happen. Marvel's go-to guy is a gritty crime-fiction writer whose Marvel superhero work is terrible in comparison even though it tries real hard to be as good as Sam and Twitch but never comes close (Bendis, for those still wondering.) In addition to that, Americans are too puritanical. There's no need for the entire mainline tier to be all ages when there's an imprint exactly for that. I do think that a mainline book should NEVER reach the Parental Advisory level and the ones that currently do are typically just the very violent ones like Wolverine and Deadpool. Even after taking that into account, I doubt there's anything in those books that wouldn't make it into that Wolverine movie due to objectionable content. "And if the current T+ and PARENTAL ADVISORY MU titles switched back to their pre-Quesada level of all ages content, the changes to the art and dialogue (a) wouldn’t be all that huge and (b) wouldn’t alter the whole tone of the books." Then why change it? There's already a line of comics for all-ages content. Plus, if Marvel dared to have a gay character in an all-ages mainline book, that's just asking for trouble because a lot of people find that sort of thing to be indoctrination and inappropriate for their impressionable youths. I don't mean gay sex or even a little bit of kissing. I'm talking about something as simple as having a same-sex married couple on the team in addition to Scott and Jean. (yes, I know she's dead and then not dead... and then dead again) It's smarter to leave things the way they are, but your attitude seems to suggest "if it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is."

Quitter, you’re arguing that the industry as a whole should be regulated for the benefit of stupid people — that they need to be warned to avoid what they can’t handle. The Comics Code, with its seal of approval, was better at that than Marvel’s ratings system is. If you’re going to argue for a ratings system, you have to explain how to make it work in terms of rating abstract content — remember MARVEL DIVAS? I doubt that you can.

I am aware that the current decompressed, dialogue-only approach to writing practically eliminates writing on two levels — one might call it a WYSIWYG approach to writing — but that only demonstrates how simplistic and childish the final product is.

SRS

“1. You have it out for Quesada, and judging by your comments on the sales threads, this is a possibility. or 2. The two things are unrelated as the ratings system was just starting to be utilized and navigated around.

Before Quesada, Marvel was in the tank and nobody wanted to work there. Lots of people forget that little technicality. Also, before Quesada when comics were so kid-friendly, Wolverine called Sabertooth a kike. Now that’s good, all-ages fun!

The only way to make the change you’re talking about is to listen to Robert Kirkman, but there’s no way that’s gonna happen. Marvel’s go-to guy is a gritty crime-fiction writer whose Marvel superhero work is terrible in comparison even though it tries real hard to be as good as Sam and Twitch but never comes close (Bendis, for those still wondering.) In addition to that, Americans are too puritanical. There’s no need for the entire mainline tier to be all ages when there’s an imprint exactly for that. I do think that a mainline book should NEVER reach the Parental Advisory level and the ones that currently do are typically just the very violent ones like Wolverine and Deadpool. Even after taking that into account, I doubt there’s anything in those books that wouldn’t make it into that Wolverine movie due to objectionable content.

“And if the current T+ and PARENTAL ADVISORY MU titles switched back to their pre-Quesada level of all ages content, the changes to the art and dialogue (a) wouldn’t be all that huge and (b) wouldn’t alter the whole tone of the books.”

Then why change it? There’s already a line of comics for all-ages content. Plus, if Marvel dared to have a gay character in an all-ages mainline book, that’s just asking for trouble because a lot of people find that sort of thing to be indoctrination and inappropriate for their impressionable youths. I don’t mean gay sex or even a little bit of kissing. I’m talking about something as simple as having a same-sex married couple on the team in addition to Scott and Jean. (yes, I know she’s dead and then not dead… and then dead again) It’s smarter to leave things the way they are, but your attitude seems to suggest “if it ain’t broke, fix it ’til it is.” ”

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1. My problems with Quesada SOLELY have to do with many of the (IMO) bad/stupid decisions that he has made at Marvel as EIC. This includes the content of the books in regards to what is or isn’t appropriate for kids/all ages and what books or characters get certain ratings.

2. Marvel (the COMIC BOOK DIVISION) was NOT in the tank before Quesada. IIRC, the comic book division was the only part of the company making money and was still the #1 comic book publisher in terms of market share and the top selling books. And except for the fall out with Waid and Lobdell, there were a lot of creators who wanted to (and did) work for Marvel. They might not have been the creators that YOU might have liked or wanted to see on the books, but they were still pretty damn good creators (IMO). As for Wolverine calling Sabretooth a “kike”, that was a typing error. Nothing more, nothing less.

3. What was Kirkman’s suggestion? Could you please post a link to his suggestion?

4. Marvel had gay characters in their comics when they were still suitable for all ages and carried the Comics Code. Nothstar,Hector (the member of the Pantheon from PAD’s INCREDIBLE HULK run),that heroic lesbian sword swinging member of the Wild Pack (from the SILVER SABLE AND THE WILD PACK ongoing series),Karma (who came out of the closet in a subtle manner in an issue of X-FORCE),and Justice/Marvel Boy’s father (who was revealed to be gay in an issue of NEW WARRIORS) are gay characters that were around when most Marvel comics were still suitable for all ages. And there was very little or no outrage from “Puritanical Americans” about these gay characters. Even when Northstar’s coming out issue o

“Quitter, you’re arguing that the industry as a whole should be regulated for the benefit of stupid people”

yes, and politicians. Everything is regulated for the benefit of stupid people. If it isn’t, stupid people hurt themselves and then sue companies and get lots of money because it’s not illegal to be stupid and companies are not doing a good job of regulating themselves if someone can misuse their product and cause harm to themselves. It’s a sad fact, but it’s still the way the world works.

“The Comics Code, with its seal of approval, was better at that than Marvel’s ratings system is.”

No it wasn’t. Nobody understood the Comics Code and most people didn’t even know if the comics they bought were Code Approved because the stupid box was so tiny and moved around the cover so often. A rating system is a more efficient way of imparting information, and useless as it may be it still makes the lawmakers feel a little better about not stepping in and instituting their own system. It implies effort on the part of those producing the content to keep harmful content away from the impressionable ones and let parents know with but a glance who should be reading what. A tiny Comics Code box if it’s even there couldn’t do that. Even a Code Approved book could contain material that a parent wouldn’t want their child of a certain age to read, and there’s no way to know that unless the read it first. At least a rating system is a more detailed guideline with an already established understanding in the mainstream thanks to the MPAA. I know they’re not exactly the same, but since people are already familiar with how the MPAA works, it would be easier for them to understand how a comic book rating system works. Also, the rating system has allowed Marvel and DC comics to catch up with the rest of the entertainment field whereas before it was firmly grounded in the children’s entertainment field with having to live up to Comics Code regulations or drop the approval and scar children for life.

Rating systems are stupid, but they make people feel better. Comics Code was stupid, and it did nothing for anyone.

“If you’re going to argue for a ratings system, you have to explain how to make it work in terms of rating abstract content — remember MARVEL DIVAS? I doubt that you can.”

No, I don’t. Nor does a rating system have to abide by your guidelines for those ratings. It’s self-regulation. Marvel can rate a book however they want. If you don’t understand or approve of why a book was rated a certain way, then it’s best to leave it alone or ask Marvel directly. If their answer still doesn’t meet your approval, then your only choice is to get on with your life because it’s not your rating system and you don’t get sued if there’s a problem with it. I CAN explain it in terms of abstract content…it’s their rating system and they can do what they want. In the case of Marvel Divas, you thought it was rated too high for your taste, saying “For example, MARVEL DIVAS had a “Parental Advisory” rating. The only reason for that rating that I could see was the breast cancer subject matter.” I’m saying Marvel can rate it however they want and if they felt that the content of that book needed a higher rating, then so be it. If it was rated too low, then I could understand the outrage and the questioning of the rating system, but that’s not the case here. Marvel’s rating system and self-regulation is there to protect their company as much as it is to impart information to their consumers as much as it is to keep the government at bay. If you want to argue against it, you’ll need something more than “the Comics Code was better.”

Rating systems are flawed, but they’re better than censorship. That’s practically what the Comics Code was and wou

"2. Marvel (the COMIC BOOK DIVISION) was NOT in the tank before Quesada." Then we recall things differently. December '99: "MARKET SHARES Share of Overall Final Order Dollars DC 40.88% Marvel 17.58% Share of Overall Preordered Units DC 32.73% Marvel 30.71% Items in Top 300 DC 94 Marvel 55 Dollar Share of Top 300 Comics & Top 25 TPBs DC 38.81% Marvel 27.73% Joe Quesada becomes editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics in 2000 January '02:Share of Overall Final Order Dollars Marvel 32.97% DC 30.30% Share of Overall Preordered Units (Publishers Only) DC 39.08% Marvel 37.54% Share of Overall Preordered Dollars (Publishers Only) Marvel 36.88% DC 29.84% Dollar Share of Top 300 Comics & Top 100 TPBs Marvel 40.99% DC 33.99%" Looks like progress to me because they were in the tank creatively and behind DC monetarily pre-Quesada. "there were a lot of creators who wanted to (and did) work for Marvel." Not the ones whose names were selling comics, apparently. "As for Wolverine calling Sabretooth a “kike”, that was a typing error." So they say, but it did happen. "3. What was Kirkman’s suggestion? Could you please post a link to his suggestion?" Marvel and DC should cater to the kids and Image and others should write for the adults. Look up "Kirkman mission statement" on CBR and you might find it. "4. Marvel had gay characters in their comics when they were still suitable for all ages and carried the Comics Code." Right, this was back when nobody in the mainstream gave a crap about comics. There's a lot of attention on comics now, and fringe groups are looking for any excuse to go after people these days. If it's not a problem, then marry Cyclops and Iceman in the Marvel Adventures (read: all-ages)books and see what happens. I wasn't saying they didn't exist back then, but nobody cared enough to pay attention. Do it now and Fox News devotes a whole week to it. "Even when Northstar’s coming out issue of ALPHA FIGHT made mainstream news media, the story quickly died down with little or no negative reaction towards Marvel. " Because that went along the lines of "hi, i'm gay and now let's go be normal and beat up the bad peoples and forget I said it." At least the homosexual characters now get to act like it and express themselves accordingly (see Runaways.) But if you want all-ages content, you won't get more than "hi, i'm a homosexual" and character will now be referred to as "the gay one" or that fact will just be ignored completely. And it just goes to prove that the only one from back then I remembered was Northstar and I bought and read all of those comics you listed EXCEPT Alpha Flight. All-ages isn't the answer, but Marvel should re-evaluate what they put out there on a regular basis.

“2. Marvel (the COMIC BOOK DIVISION) was NOT in the tank before Quesada.” Then we recall things differently. December ‘99: “MARKET SHARES Share of Overall Final Order Dollars DC 40.88% Marvel 17.58% Share of Overall Preordered Units DC 32.73% Marvel 30.71% Items in Top 300 DC 94 Marvel 55 Dollar Share of Top 300 Comics & Top 25 TPBs DC 38.81% Marvel 27.73% Joe Quesada becomes editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics in 2000 January ‘02:Share of Overall Final Order Dollars Marvel 32.97% DC 30.30% Share of Overall Preordered Units (Publishers Only) DC 39.08% Marvel 37.54% Share of Overall Preordered Dollars (Publishers Only) Marvel 36.88% DC 29.84% Dollar Share of Top 300 Comics & Top 100 TPBs Marvel 40.99% DC 33.99%” Looks like progress to me because they were in the tank creatively and behind DC monetarily pre-Quesada. “there were a lot of creators who wanted to (and did) work for Marvel.” Not the ones whose names were selling comics, apparently. “As for Wolverine calling Sabretooth a “kike”, that was a typing error.” So they say, but it did happen. “3. What was Kirkman’s suggestion? Could you please post a link to his suggestion?” Marvel and DC should cater to the kids and Image and others should write for the adults. Look up “Kirkman mission statement” on CBR and you might find it. “4. Marvel had gay characters in their comics when they were still suitable for all ages and carried the Comics Code.” Right, this was back when nobody in the mainstream gave a crap about comics. There’s a lot of attention on comics now, and fringe groups are looking for any excuse to go after people these days. If it’s not a problem, then marry Cyclops and Iceman in the Marvel Adventures (read: all-ages)books and see what happens. I wasn’t saying they didn’t exist back then, but nobody cared enough to pay attention. Do it now and Fox News devotes a whole week to it. “Even when Northstar’s coming out issue of ALPHA FIGHT made mainstream news media, the story quickly died down with little or no negative reaction towards Marvel. ” Because that went along the lines of “hi, i’m gay and now let’s go be normal and beat up the bad peoples and forget I said it.” At least the homosexual characters now get to act like it and express themselves accordingly (see Runaways.) But if you want all-ages content, you won’t get more than “hi, i’m a homosexual” and character will now be referred to as “the gay one” or that fact will just be ignored completely. And it just goes to prove that the only one from back then I remembered was Northstar and I bought and read all of those comics you listed EXCEPT Alpha Flight. All-ages isn’t the answer, but Marvel should re-evaluate what they put out there on a regular basis. ____________________________________________ 1. Picking one month out of the year in order to prove your point, does not make your claim truthful. IIRC (and I could be wrong), the reason DC beat Marvel in that month was because DC put out more books then Marvel during that time. 2. Millar,Morrison,PAD,Busiek,Waid,Perez,Pacheco,Davis,Larocca,Chen, Ellis,and Romita jr are all "popular" creators who worked for Marvel shortly before Quesada became EIC. Those creators names alone might not have sold books, but that was during a time when it was all about the song and not about the singer. It could be argue, based on current sales, that today's current "popular" creators aren't able to sell books with their names alone. 3. The attitude the mainstream media had towards comics back in those days, is the same as they have these days.

This analysis of Marvel’s business practices prior to, during, and after bankruptcy implicitly gives some credit to Quesada for the turnaround:

On the revenue side, they mended relationships with the industry’s top talent, many of whom had left Marvel during the bankruptcy or before because of artistic reasons, to improve the quality of their product so that sales would increase again.

4. Segment the market into children readers and adult readers and cater unique titles to each segment.

Were Marvel to publish titles for only two segments, adults and children, there would be no need for ratings. The ’80s approach worked, in terns of sophisticated content; publishing for adults would also work. What doesn’t work is aiming content at the imagined teenage readership, when the actual readership is older.

SRS

“1. Picking one month out of the year in order to prove your point, does not make your claim truthful. IIRC (and I could be wrong), the reason DC beat Marvel in that month was because DC put out more books then Marvel during that time.”

It proves we remember things differently. Quesada took over in 2000. I picked the month immediately preceeding 2000 and the next month I could find which gave Quesada enough time to make changes to see if it affected the sales numbers. Looking back at my source (comichron.com), DC (red) is above Marvel (yellow) from end of 98-end of 01. After 01, Marvel is above DC until present with a few exceptions and close calls. The facts don’t lie.

“Millar,Morrison,PAD,Busiek,Waid,Perez,Pacheco,Davis,Larocca,Chen, Ellis,and Romita jr are all “popular” creators who worked for Marvel shortly before Quesada became EIC. ”

I said nobody wanted to work there. Somebody had to work there if they wanted to make money in comics, and since DC was full up, they had to go somewhere. Doesn’t mean they were happy doing it, and it doesn’t mean nobody was working there. Also, it is a generalization, but there was a lot of talk about it at the time and the reason Quesada was made EIC was because the Marvel Knights creators enjoyed the work environment he and Palmiotti created, and several of the people you listed were working on Marvel Knights books during those years in the tank and Marvel Knights may be the only reason they were working for Marvel at all. Also, I didn’t mean that their names alone were selling the books. I meant that it looked as if the names on the books that were selling (namely DC books) weren’t employed by Marvel. Several probably worked for both because the rent doesn’t pay itself.

“3. The attitude the mainstream media had towards comics back in those days, is the same as they have these days. ”

Here we disagree again. Creative team changes don’t hit the evening news, but it doesn’t take much for the 24-hour news cycle to grab onto something and make it a big deal now. They’re looking to fill time, and comics can be just as interesting as politics if the subject matter fits. It took Superman dying for anyone to really pay attention even though I believe Alpha Flight 106 was published before that and received minimal attention… compare that to today with Dead Cap and Obamania, and it’s not even close.

“Most of the credit for the improved financial results goes to improved business practices and personnel choices, though.”

wouldn’t they have resulted from Quesada making those decisions or someone else doing so on his recommendation? I don’t want to give him sole credit, but Wraith isn’t giving him any.

“Were Marvel to publish titles for only two segments, adults and children, there would be no need for ratings.”

or paychecks because hardly anyone would be buying them.

“What doesn’t work is aiming content at the imagined teenage readership, when the actual readership is older.”

Seems to be working fine, actually. There is no “imagined teenage readership.” There is the actual teenaged readership which reads the comics that interest them and are allowed to buy. There’s the adult readership which reads the comics that interest them. And then there’s the youth readership which reads the comics that are appropriate for their age group. If you cut out the teen or mid-range level, then you are only able to have adults who still want to read adult comics and kids who probably have a small interest in reading already. There has to be a transitional period that interests people too old for kids comics and too young for adult comics, and whoa, look at that, most of Marvel and DC’s output is directed at that audience. This is not a coincidence. The average age of a mainline Marvel or DC reader may be unusually

“1. Picking one month out of the year in order to prove your point, does not make your claim truthful. IIRC (and I could be wrong), the reason DC beat Marvel in that month was because DC put out more books then Marvel during that time.”

It proves we remember things differently. Quesada took over in 2000. I picked the month immediately preceeding 2000 and the next month I could find which gave Quesada enough time to make changes to see if it affected the sales numbers. Looking back at my source (comichron.com), DC (red) is above Marvel (yellow) from end of 98-end of 01. After 01, Marvel is above DC until present with a few exceptions and close calls. The facts don’t lie.

“Millar,Morrison,PAD,Busiek,Waid,Perez,Pacheco,Davis,Larocca,Chen, Ellis,and Romita jr are all “popular” creators who worked for Marvel shortly before Quesada became EIC. ”

I said nobody wanted to work there. Somebody had to work there if they wanted to make money in comics, and since DC was full up, they had to go somewhere. Doesn’t mean they were happy doing it, and it doesn’t mean nobody was working there. Also, it is a generalization, but there was a lot of talk about it at the time and the reason Quesada was made EIC was because the Marvel Knights creators enjoyed the work environment he and Palmiotti created, and several of the people you listed were working on Marvel Knights books during those years in the tank and Marvel Knights may be the only reason they were working for Marvel at all. Also, I didn’t mean that their names alone were selling the books. I meant that it looked as if the names on the books that were selling (namely DC books) weren’t employed by Marvel. Several probably worked for both because the rent doesn’t pay itself.

“3. The attitude the mainstream media had towards comics back in those days, is the same as they have these days. ”

Here we disagree again. Creative team changes don’t hit the evening news, but it doesn’t take much for the 24-hour news cycle to grab onto something and make it a big deal now. They’re looking to fill time, and comics can be just as interesting as politics if the subject matter fits. It took Superman dying for anyone to really pay attention even though I believe Alpha Flight 106 was published before that and received minimal attention… compare that to today with Dead Cap and Obamania, and it’s not even close.

“Most of the credit for the improved financial results goes to improved business practices and personnel choices, though.”

wouldn’t they have resulted from Quesada making those decisions or someone else doing so on his recommendation? I don’t want to give him sole credit, but Wraith isn’t giving him any.

___________________________________________

1. No, it proves that you are twisting the facts to prove your point. Like I said in my previous post, DC dominated Marvel back in December of 1999 because DC put out about 40 more titles then Marvel in that month. And yet, Marvel still had 39 titles in the top 100 vs DC having 37 titles in the top 100. Marvel also dominated the top 10 in that month. And they did it all without using gimmicks like a NO OVER PRINT POLICY,variant covers,and crossovers. Now to be fair, in 2002 Marvel had 50 titles in the top 100 vs DC’s 39 titles. I should also point out that DC was putting out 20 LESS titles in Jan 2002 then they were in Dec 1999 (94 in 1999 vs 74 in 2002) and that Marvel had their NO OVER PRINT POLICY and variant cover gimmicks in full affect in 2002.

2. I think it’s ridiculous to claim that no one wanted to work for Marvel under the previous editorial regime based on the (I assume) comments made by a few creators who had problems with the previous regime. And NONE of the creators I listed were working on any MK books during that time. And if the RUMOR is to be believed, the only reason Quesada got the EIC job is because no one else working at Marvel wanted it.

3. Actually, we are not disagreeing about the level of i

Oi gevalt, anyone but me who posts in this thread is now Officially a Holiday Loser.

“1. No, it proves that you are twisting the facts to prove your point.”

Nope. Sales don’t lie. I didn’t twist any facts. I even went back to the source and took a span of 3 years where DC was consistently beating Marvel to prove the point even more, but apparently facts are not good enough to prove anything.

“2. I think it’s ridiculous to claim that no one wanted to work for Marvel under the previous editorial regime based on the (I assume) comments made by a few creators who had problems with the previous regime. And NONE of the creators I listed were working on any MK books during that time. And if the RUMOR is to be believed, the only reason Quesada got the EIC job is because no one else working at Marvel wanted it.”

You’re clearly just anti-Quesada. I admitted that it was a generalization and it’s also an exaggeration. People do those sorts of things sometime. People were not happy with Marvel from the top down, and the only ones anybody was happy with were Joe Quesada and Jimmy Palmiotti. That’s probably why he got the job.

Fantastic Four: 1234 by Grant Morrison
Marvel Boy by Grant Morrison
Millar worked on Ultimate books and then transitioned to Marvel Knights books
Kurt Busiek was on Avengers and mostly getting what he wanted out of that deal and working with George Perez, so okay, he might have been happy.
Warren Ellis wasn’t really doing much for Marvel pre-Quesada, and later came back to Marvel because he had heard good things about what it was like to work there again under Quesada.

People were generally not interested in working for Marvel or buying what Marvel was selling. I’m not making it up. The facts needed a little bit of checking, and I knew some of the people you listed had worked on Marvel Knights books but the only one who did so before Quesada became EIC was Grant Morrison so that at least proves you wrong that “NONE” of them did so. Marvel Boy may have been released after Quesada was made EIC (as I don’t have exact dates), but it was clearly in the works before he was promoted.

“3. Actually, we are not disagreeing about the level of interest from the mainstream media in comics.”

No, we’re in disagreement about it because you think it’s the same as it always was. Yes, they generally ignore comics, but now they’re likely to make a big deal out of nothing to fill time that didn’t need filling back in the 90’s. All it takes is one irate conservative to send Fox News on a witchhunt. But maybe you have a different idea of mainstream media than I do.

“4. Quesada has little or no say on the business decisions at Marvel. So no, no one above him does anything based on his recommendation. ”

and you know this because you work there and are above him?

My question is more about what exactly falls under “business practices and personnel decisions?” The hiring of editors, artists, writers, etc would clearly fall under Quesada and fit under personnel decisions unless that’s not the personnel being referenced. Since it wasn’t your quote, I obviously wasn’t asking you, but thanks for making another effort to slam Quesada.

“Nope. Sales don’t lie. I didn’t twist any facts. I even went back to the source and took a span of 3 years where DC was consistently beating Marvel to prove the point even more, but apparently facts are not good enough to prove anything.

You’re clearly just anti-Quesada. I admitted that it was a generalization and it’s also an exaggeration. People do those sorts of things sometime. People were not happy with Marvel from the top down, and the only ones anybody was happy with were Joe Quesada and Jimmy Palmiotti. That’s probably why he got the job.

Fantastic Four: 1234 by Grant Morrison
Marvel Boy by Grant Morrison
Millar worked on Ultimate books and then transitioned to Marvel Knights books
Kurt Busiek was on Avengers and mostly getting what he wanted out of that deal and working with George Perez, so okay, he might have been happy.
Warren Ellis wasn’t really doing much for Marvel pre-Quesada, and later came back to Marvel because he had heard good things about what it was like to work there again under Quesada.

People were generally not interested in working for Marvel or buying what Marvel was selling. I’m not making it up. The facts needed a little bit of checking, and I knew some of the people you listed had worked on Marvel Knights books but the only one who did so before Quesada became EIC was Grant Morrison so that at least proves you wrong that “NONE” of them did so. Marvel Boy may have been released after Quesada was made EIC (as I don’t have exact dates), but it was clearly in the works before he was promoted.

No, we’re in disagreement about it because you think it’s the same as it always was. Yes, they generally ignore comics, but now they’re likely to make a big deal out of nothing to fill time that didn’t need filling back in the 90’s. All it takes is one irate conservative to send Fox News on a witchhunt. But maybe you have a different idea of mainstream media than I do.

and you know this because you work there and are above him?

My question is more about what exactly falls under “business practices and personnel decisions?” The hiring of editors, artists, writers, etc would clearly fall under Quesada and fit under personnel decisions unless that’s not the personnel being referenced. Since it wasn’t your quote, I obviously wasn’t asking you, but thanks for making another effort to slam Quesada.”

_________________________________________

1. You’re right, sales don’t lie. And based on the sales data from the site you got your info from, Marvel books regularly on average outsold DC books, without the help of gimmicks. Again, the only reason DC had a higher market and dollar share then Marvel, is because they had put out more product then Marvel during that time.

2. My only problem with Quesada is that he is (IMO) a crappy EIC. And if I really was as anti Quesada as you claim I am, I wouldn’t defend his decision to end the Spidey/MJ marriage (although I think that the way he ended the marriage was pretty damn stupid).

IIRC, Morrison’s FF:1234 came out shortly after Quesada became EIC, but I could be wrong. Also, both Morrison and Millar co-wrote the SKRULL KILL KREW for Marvel a few years before Quesada became EIC. And Millar also wrote that X-Men one shot that showed how the comic books in the MU portrayed the X-Men (some of those ideas from that one shot were even later used in his ULTIMATE X-MEN run).

Pre-Quesada, Ellis wrote DOOM 2099,a 2099 one shot,RUINS,DRUID, HELLSTORM,EXCALIBUR,SATANA (which never saw publication due to the mature subject matter of the book),and the COUNTER X books (X-MAN, X-FORCE,and GENERATION X).

3. When Spidey got married in the 80’s, it got mainstream media attention. When Robin died in the 80’s, it got mainstream media attention. When Northstar came out of the closet in the 90’s, it got mainstream media attention. When Superman died in the 90’s, it got mainstream medi

“1. You’re right, sales don’t lie. And based on the sales data from the site you got your info from, Marvel books regularly on average outsold DC books, without the help of gimmicks. Again, the only reason DC had a higher market and dollar share then Marvel, is because they had put out more product then Marvel during that time. ”

and Marvel is on top right now despite getting blown away by Blackest Night. Attempt to justify your point of view however you want. Marvel was at a standstill creatively and was riding a sinking ship before Quesada turned the company around. They were second to DC.

November 2009: Items in Top 300

Marvel
98

DC
82

So Marvel is on top now because they put out more stuff? How simplistic. I suppose if I start up a publishing company and publish more comics than Marvel and DC I’ll win too. Good to know that quantity wins out.

“My only problem with Quesada is that he is (IMO) a crappy EIC.”

And my problem with your problem is that he isn’t a crappy EIC.

“IIRC, Morrison’s FF:1234 came out shortly after Quesada became EIC, but I could be wrong. ”

“Morrison and Millar co-wrote the SKRULL KILL KREW for Marvel a few years before Quesada became EIC”

Yes, lots of people have written things for Marvel before Quesada became EIC. When you’re talking years, it’s irrelevant, and depending on what you mean by “shortly”, the book could have been done before Quesada became EIC and published after.

“Pre-Quesada, Ellis wrote DOOM 2099,a 2099 one shot,RUINS,DRUID, HELLSTORM,EXCALIBUR,SATANA (which never saw publication due to the mature subject matter of the book),and the COUNTER X books (X-MAN, X-FORCE,and GENERATION X).”

Which supports what I said. and again, all of this was either written or done before Quesada became EIC and Ellis had already severed ties to Marvel before that happened and before Quesada changed things for the better. Don’t take my word for it, okay, ask Warren Ellis.

3. I disagree, so give it a rest.

“4. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the EIC has no say in the business decisions of the company.”

anyone with an ounce of common sense knows better than to answer a question that wasn’t directed toward them. As I said, it depends on what is called “business decisions”, and you don’t need to be a prick about things you know nothing about since it wasn’t your damn quote. You are in no position to say what Joe Quesada has or does not have a say in no matter what you think you know about his job title, and neither do I. That’s why I asked the question of the person who could potentially have some REAL information to impart. So take your snobbery elsewhere.

whew, this is some debate. can’t really comment on the sales of marvel and dc comics from ten years ago, ’cause really - who cares. marvel was going through so much crap in those days (between take overs by billionaires and going public and in house fighting) that just pointing to sales alone as the only factor of how healthy they were as a company at the time doesn’t look at the company’s problems as a whole. as for nobody wanting to work at marvel in those days before joeQ, i remember hearing all that and for some of the writers mentioned above it’s probably true and for others probably not. most of these guys are freelancers and like most freelancers in any industry, they take any job that comes their way, if they like who they work for or not. as for joeQ, i’ll admit, i’m not a big fan of his. i felt that he would let some of the writers have too much freedom in their writing without enough editorial control over what they were doing, but we could endlessly debate that. as far as joeQ and marvel’s business decisions, i’ve read interviews( don’t ask me where i read them, i don’t remember, but i’m sure you can find then without too much trouble) with him saying that he has no say in what marvel’s video dept. does or what their toy dept. does, but i’m sure all these departments work together to help bring about product and i would guess that joeQ has major pull in his dept. ( the comics division of marvel ), how much pull that is, i have no idea. as for the media, both quitter and wraith are correct. the media does give about the same amount of attention to a comic book “event” as it always has, but it’s also true that at anytime someone in the media could get a bug up their ass about a overly violent or sexual depiction in the latest issue of “thunderbolts” and make a major stink about it. to my knowledge this hasn’t happened, and if it happens at fox…, considering those folks bitch about almost everything under the sun and is quickly forgotten ’cause we are talking about a twenty four hour news cycle here, i doubt them bitching about a comic book will garner much notice (tho’ i do seem to remember a few years back the “700 club” complaining about comic books once).as for the comics, you can write about any subject that can be read by both kids and adults if it’s done in a certain way. it’s funny when marvel in the 60’s started getting attention, they were writing stories that appealed to kids on one level and collage students on another. there were even adults at the time that got a kick out of the books. so here we are many years later and for some reason we can’t (or refuse ) to recapture the magic of those comics. i say that we can (hope i don’t a call from the white house using that phrase). i understand that there are those that don’t want to go back, but remember, this is (was) primarily a childrens medium, for the young and the young at heart. do all comics have to be aimed at kids, of course not. or all super hero books aimed at kids, again, of course not. just as an all ages book does not have to be something just for kids. ’cause lets face it, we’ve been reading all ages books since the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, and beyond and most of us here are life long fans. what could really be killing the comic book industry is the fact that the majority of books are four bucks a pop. but thats a rant for another day.

a-w-e-s-o-m-e

I love it!!!

Designed Only for Karoling

Between Comic Book Tattoo and simply uttering the phrase, “Hello, Modok,” Tori’s really worked on her comic geek cred the last couple of years (long-time friendship with Neil Gaiman not withstanding). Her appearance makes about as much sense as Elvis Costello on Colbert’s Christmas Special, though you’d think they would have at least plugged her (rather good) holiday album.

If they ever did a bio pic of Tori Amos - I’m sure Alyson Hannigan could fill the role perfectly.

~

Coat

What the?!?!???…. O.O

When did Marvel.com decide to become Space Ghost: Coast to Coast? O.o

Haha, Deadpool’s list was funny!

Kickin’ the year off right, I see.

Man, I needs to get me the Spidey Workout Plan. Forget expanding market share, Marvel would be rolling in the dough if they printed that.

I think you’re getting worked up over nothing- there’s nary a spidey sense of a bulge in sight.

~

Coat

the guy wears a costume so tight you can see his whole ribcage!

It’s only right for his manly bulges to be there unless he has Ken-esque proportions!

At least it’s a man doing it this time.