Twenty+ years ago there were a heck of alot more individual publishing houses than there are today. Perhaps Miss Snark would hazard a guess at the number of literary agents then and now.

Back then, an author had at least a rat's ass's chance of getting published without the assistance of an agent. I do not think that is the case now. The author/publisher relationship no longer exists, having been replaced by the author/agent relationship. So I see agents as a kind of "white knight" on behalf of authors, now.

The population has increased substantially, and so, presumably, has the number of potentially "great" authors. I know the net worth of the owners of the conglomerate publishing houses has increased, but has there been a proportionate increase in the quality and diversity (I don't mean race)of their offerings? I don't think so. I really don't. What has increased is the number of "copycat" titles on any given subject. And this is deemed progress!

Miss Snark, this is exactly what I was wondering: Is it possible for an agent to submit to Knopf, for instance, after a No from Random House Trade Paperbacks? The VP wrote me a gorgeous letter, but it was still a No. Would love to know if an agent can get around this, or is all of Random House now off the list?

I'm with an imprint that is tired of living off its back list and looking to move in a new direction. If you put my book next to the rest of the list, you would scratch your head and wonder what's it's doing there. But my book is the wave of the future for the imprint, which had replaced its whole staff with new personnel. The point is that Miss Snark, as always, is right again. You need to be in trenches on a daily basis to know what's going on and where to submit--as my agent did.

This is why you need an agent.

*Daring to correct Miss Snark* I think rather than Grand Central (formerly Warner), you might have intended to write Hachette Book Group USA (formerly TimeWarner Book Group). Grand Central Publishing is a division of Hachette Book Group USA.

*daring to admit a mistake*!

ya, you're right, and I was wrong.
But now it's right, and thanks!

This post just really illustrates why agents are so desperately needed! All those who insist on saying that anyone could be an agent, or that they shouldn't have to pay that 15% just because sending a manuscript couldn't be THAT hard...

Stuff. It. Up. Your. Gullet.

This sort of dance takes expertise. You wouldn't want just anyone representing you in court... why would you want just anyone representing you to publishers?

This is why you should be careful when selecting your agent. A bad agent is worse than none at all!

From my experience, the only way people in one imprint will know that you've been rejected by another imprint in a major house is if your query letter is so bad that they read it out loud to everybody at a slush lunch.

We get a lot of slush. Every imprint does. If it's rejected by one, chances are high that it was never even seen by any of the other imprints.

I've been playing around a bit with Critique Circle.

If the book is sci-fi, fantasy or horror, the writer can try www.critters.org.

The writer has to be willing to do critiques in exchange for receiving critiques.

Try absolutewrite.com's forums:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/
They have a forum called "Share Your Work". You have to be careful because anyone can critique you, but there are some good people on the board.

You could try Critique Circle:

http://www.critiquecircle.com/

Or find discussion boards for the type of writing that you do. Sometimes people on these boards will form critique groups or will know of some good ones.

I recommend both www.critiquecircle.com and the Share Your Work forum on the Absolute Write boards (www.absolutewrite.com/forums).

I have no idea what genre you write, but Charlotte Dillon runs a (free) Yahoo critique group for romance writers. I cut my teeth on that group, and it was a great experience. You might also try joining an organization like RWA (or whatever flavor for your genre) to find local or online chapters that provide critiquing over the Internet. HTH

If it's fantasy, science fiction or horror, the Online Writing Workshop is great:

http://sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com/

I've been with this online group for some time: http://www.dreaminginink.com/
I looked for some time before I decided on this one. You have to crit here, but I found that to be an excellent learning experience. They limit the number of members, so you might have to wait. You get a "free" submission in the beginning, and then you have to do 3 crits per submission.
It was there that I found a link to here, in fact.l

*cough* crapometer.blogspot.com *cough*

I joined www.critiquecircle.com and I have gotten invaluable feedback from everyone who has crted my novel chapter by chapter.

Dreaming In Ink Writers Workshop (http://www.dreaminginink.com). A free, purposely kept small group. Really cool place to hang out, crit, be critted, and learn.

'Course, I'm a bit biased about it. ;)

elektra, you beat me to the crapometer...

I've had luck with YouWriteOn

Other members can review you, and you have to earn "review credits" by reviewing others.

I can't quite tell from your post, but have you written more than one chapter? If not, I suggest you write the rest of your manuscript and stop worrying about whether the first chapter is good enough yet. I find so many people "polish their buttons" instead of plowing through that first draft. Don't lose your momentum! Read Bird by Bird by Anne Lamont or On Writing by Stephen King.

There's no end to the places to look: FMwriters, critters, and many, many more.

To the original poster: I'm swamped with two revisions of my own, but what the heck, I'll have a read of the chapter, if you wish. I believe clicking on my name on this post will eventually lead you to a "contact me" address somewhere.

Just this one, though, please.

+1 for the Crapometer.

I'm with writerious. I recommend Critique Circle.

I like Critique Circle and Critters personally. If you go anywhere else though - CHECK the fine print. There has to be protection in place for your submission otherwise you might run into theft and also lose other controls over your work. Posting online is often seen as the first electronic rights from what I hear so be careful and know where you stand before you post.

It appears that clicking on my name on Blogger.com (which I am coming to loath after many trials and tribulations of late) does not lead to a "contact me" address, therefore I guess I don't exist.

But wait, I do live on Google! Like we all do.

(Me, a firm believer in community and the small ways we can all pass it forward)

Everyone's tossed up some great suggestions.

One thing you need to ask yourself is, are you just looking for feedback on chapter one, or are you looking for a more permanent crit relationship?

long-term crit relationships are good if you're looking for feedback on a novel. The feedback focus on a single chapter is not the same as the focus on a full novel. Encluing, character development and plot arch aren't always judgeable in a single chapter.

wordver: less muju

Another advocate for Critique Cirlce. It's advice has been invaluble to me. But it is a bit of a commitment: In order to submit things to be critiqued, you have to critique at least two things first. And the more people you critique for, the more people will critique for you.

Toasted Cheese (www.toasted-cheese.com) has a great critique forum--and it's snark-themed too, as it's based on Lewis Carol's "The Hunting of the Snark" poem. (Disclaimer: the site is not connected to Miss Snark or her site, other than sharing a love for hunting out and eradicating snark.)

Thank you so much for all of your suggestions. My novel is an urban fantasy and I've completed the first draft, so I have plenty of work ahead of me. I know that the first chapter needs to be strong, and after reading it over 100 times, I feel like I've lost perspective on whether it's good or not. I would like to find a long-term crit relationship, right now I'm just getting my toes wet. Thank you for your generous offer Richard Lewis, I'll send it to you this week after I've read it over 10 more times. :)

I would second those who said the "Share Your Work" forum on absolute write.

I've gotten both great and lousy critiques at Forward Motion and Critique Circle (with the lousy ones being a sharp minority, thankfully).

Elektra's Crapometer is one place where I have yet to see anyone give bad advice. The quality of the critiques there is very high.

I would recommend Absolute Write, but don't just post there to get a critique. You might want to offer to critique a few things before asking for someone to crit yours...

Crapometer is a great place as well - you'll get some good feedback there as well.

Good luck!

Writer's Digest's newest Best 101 list is online now. You could look there under "communities."

The Internet Writer's Workshop has a critique list for Novels. Good people there. http://www.internetwritingworkshop.com/

urbis.com

In the Baen's Bar forum, their is a 'slush pile' subforum that, while not directly connected to their real slush pile, has had on occasion their real slush pile readers go on and critique submitted works, in an on-line critique\writers group format.

Only works for Sci-Fi\Fantasy, though. Funny thing, but a lot of the 'cool' things, like the better writing groups (critters, Baen), agents-to-avoid alerts (sfwa.org), etc., seem to revolve around the sci-fi\fantasy writing circles...

Forward Motion has several critique boards. http://www.fmwriters.com

"Only works for Sci-Fi \Fantasy, though. Funny thing, but a lot of the 'cool' things, like the better writing groups (critters, Baen), agents-to-avoid alerts ( sfwa .org), etc., seem to revolve around the sci-fi \fantasy writing circles..."

Here's a Clue:

Notice that the science fiction writers' org is SFWA, not Sci-FiWA. Calling science fiction sci-fi rather than sf, its proud and ancient moniker, is like calling young black women "nappy-headed ho's." Plenty of ignorant people do it, sure. Some morons even named a TV channel Sci Fi (right--and look at the crap they run cluelessly.) No excuse.

crapometer.blogspot.com

I have a podcast and am always looking for people to crit on it. I allow you to crit me to so it's not totally biased but I write urban fantasy so I know the genre you are working on.

Please feel free to submit something for review. An example of a crit is in Episode 2 and 3.
www.talechasing.com

Yo on critters. Especially the Turkey City Lexicon. That baby has been invaluable to me. I blitzkrieged the Gather contest with it. They were not amused.

http://www.critique.org/turkeycity.html

You can also send a chapter to www.IWillRead10Pages.com, as long as you are willing to have both the original and the critique posted. Email me for more info.

I suggest ForwardMotion as well. I'm one of the FM moderators, and what I suggest you do is become a member, give as well as expect critique and take part in the discussions.. That way you'll get a lot more out of it.

QUOTE:
The Internet Writer's Workshop has a critique list for Novels. Good people there. http://www.internetwritingworkshop.com/

Yes. I agree. I used to belong to the IWW Novels list and now belong to a couple other IWW groups instead. I think you'll get good feedback there.

www.thenextbigwriter.com
You can post as much or as little of your novel - also short stories and poetry - and as long as you are willing to crit ohter people's stuff, they'll critique yours. Mostly just amateurs like yourself, but generally a consensus builds.



Check out "Tony's Wee Girl"!
(shameless plug)

openchannel: That's totally me, right there! *raises hand in guilt*

You might also check out which specializes in science fiction and fantasy writing. You have to do 6 critiques of other works before you can submit, but people tend to be very honest in their reactions.

Precision Editing Group will do an evaluation on your first 30 pages for free. Or they'll do a content & line edit on the first 10 pages. Free also. www.PrecisionEditingGroup.com

I can't recommend Critique Circle enough. It's a fantastic site.

In the meantime, volunteer for your local literary magazine ... the submissions will make you cry (not to mention the query letters explaining how writing has helped the writer's mental issues) and maybe make you think twice about this whole 'reading slush for a living' thing.

This might be helpful:

http://rejecter.blogspot.com/2007/
04/so-you-want-my-job-huh.html

(Without the line break, of course.)

The only downside is that the majority of places won't consider you for an internship because you aren't eligible to receive college credit in compensation. On the other hand, when you do find a non-paying internship, you won't have to pay anyone for the privileged of working for free.

Penguin books offers paid internships, so it's not limited to just students.

If the literary agent is worried about his reputation over this, the simple answer is: don't.

Speaking as a writer who's going to be researching agents when my book is finished, the opinion of a blogger whose proposal was rejected will mean absolutely zilch to me. They don't know you, they have no reputation, and the fact they're whining about a form rejection says more about them than it does about you.

Now, if I see authors you're representing bitching about you, that's a different kettle of spam.

Rejection is part of business. ... If you are too thin-skinned to take it, change professions.

Now that I've said that, let me observe that some form rejections are pretty thoughtless. I've been a bit spoiled by nice personal notes, but I've had my share of "form rejections." Some are neutral, not-for-us kinds of things. Some are just clueless and rude. Do what we writers must do: Have someone review your form letter.

Ask Miss Snark to post it here. We'll review it for you. We're experts. We see more types of rejetion letters than you do!

I'm not joking. Some people just don't understand that a form rejection can be as rude as a nasty personal letter. It's all in the tone and appearance.

I'd be happy to rate your form letter. ... So would dozens of others experts who haunt Miss Snark's blog. Even Bill E. Goat would review your form letter!

Best,

Sha'el of the Pixies,
Suzarian of Fairie,
Queen of Goats

While I've perused the Rejection Collection now and again, it gets dull after a while when you read several authors' long-winded rant and realize they're all ranting about form letters. Author responses to seriously unprofessional rejections are funny. Author responses to standard form letters that we've all seen many, many times before just aren't.

So if there are authors out there ranting about agents who sent form letters, those authors need a few lessons in how this industry works.

Not to mention thicker hides.

Authors who already know how the system works won't be the least bit affected by the rants of authors who don't. In fact, most experienced authors, published or not, will look at those rants and think, "Geez, get a clue."

To follow on bill, I'm thinking that if I see an agent whining about someone with no reputation whining about a form rejection, that does reflect badly on the agent.

Someone who is unprofessional enough to post things like that with their name attatched is probably too unprofessional to produce a truly professional piece of work that you would be likely to accept. I think it's a self-contained problem.

sha'el, I just got a couple of forms that fall into the category of thoughtlessly rude (one of them said something like "Agent So-and-So is currently looking for new clients, but only on work she feels is well-written and engaging").

Interesting, Elektra. Writers beg agents to give some indication of the writing. I've seen suggestions that agents have two or three different form letters for perceived quality of the submission: close, nice but not exceptional enough to catch my attention, wake up and smell the coffee - your writing stinks.

Now, in your case, the letters probably WERE rude (I know you're a professional writer). But what if they were the type of form feedback being clamored for? If this agent was really trying to be helpful. How would the recipient know?

P&E has nothing against form letters. In fact, we view those as necessary in an industry where agents and publishers alike sometimes have hundreds of query letters and submissions arrive weekly. In fact, we view personal letters as being more cruel. Some are much too vague in trying to convey a sympathetic no. Others mixed up information in sending a rejection so that it appeared the agent or publisher hadn't actually read anything. In fact, the best ones have been brief and conveyed only that the submission wouldn't be a good match for the agent.

It's better to let the writer join some critique groups if the writer wants feedback. Then the writer will be among other writers who are also readers. If other readers don't like what a writer has to offer, then maybe it's just not ready.

Um...I have trouble believing this person is really an agent. They sound more like a writer fishing to find out if agents have a hidden "blacklist" website out there.

Dear Anon. of the last sort:

I have no trouble seeing her as professional. We seldom realize what the true weight or effect of our written word is.

Elektra's naughty agent is of the rude sort, and probably intentionally so. But ... one never knows. They may be clueless and rude. Or just rude. Or just clueless. see?

I'm working my cute little pixie fingers to the bone trying to finish a (yes they WANT TO SEE IT! Yipee) journal article that summarizes a longer bit of research. So there's this sticky, puzzling aspect to Mr. I Am Almost God's life. I email a historian from MY-church-has-a-really-long-name for information. She, kind soul that she is, refers me to Wickedpedia. Umm this is on the far edge of clueless ... but nice. See?

(She followed that up with an apology and an invitation to speak at a conference later this year. She's a nice person. She isn't mean. We all do clueless things. see?)

I was serious when I said our mystery agent should post her form letter. What better way to see how people are reacting to it?

It is important for her to know that. Why? Well, I've gotten "write something else for us" letters. They fall into two piles: 1. your letter is so nasty, the only thing I'd ever write for you is a funeral notice; 2. Humm, how nice. When I'm finished with my nutzoid 19th Century prophet, I just might....

My reaction is to what's printed in an email or form letter or personal not, not to a voice from which one can measure tone and intent.

She should post it. We're meanies, but we will tell her. Well, some of us are meanies. I'm ALWAYS nice. ALWAYS.

Last anon, the writer is a lit agent or at least someone with an email address from an agency I know.

So do agents have some sort of hidden blacklist site? I'm curious.

Miss Snark: Thank you for the clarification. I suppose the agent must be relatively new, then, and thus hasn't yet developed the alligator-hide-in-lieu-of-skin s/he needs. (That will come, I'm sure; prolonged exposure to nitwits speeds the growth of such.)

H.R.H. Sha'el: You're quite right that the diversity of reactions people have to a given piece of writing can shock the person who wrote it. Probably that's all that was happening in the case of this agent. :-)

A hidden black list site? How interesting. ... I don't think so, but they do gossip.

Be nice to agents, even if you think they're lily-livered (what is that anyway?) pusillanimous, frog-eating, Absinthe imbibing, goat-haters. ... Because they gossip.

Don't you? Booksellers and historians do. Goat-herds do. Agents do too. They sit around tables in dimly-lit bistros and tell stories about slush piles, query letters and rude authors.

And NEVER spill a latte' on an agent. That's very bad form.

It's odd that a literary agent would ask Miss Snark what she should do rather than ask, I don't know, someone at her/his own agency, but I suppose that is another matter.

I don't at all condone spouting off publicly about how horible rejection is and how it absolutely can hurt you at times. But I can see why others would.

For fun, I think the agent in question should write a quick query letter, for any type of project, and send it out to twenty-five agents/editors and see the responses she/he gets.

Only then will this agent understand the frustration level: a seven month wait for a photocopied, coffee-spilled on, form rejection letter from someone who has scribbled your name at the top, and mispelled it at that.

It simply breeds frustration. To want to make a website listing all these writers as "clients from hell" might not be helpful.

Instead, possibly the agent could remember that for HER agency, she can get things done quicker/better/nicer, even for rejection, and take satisfaction that she is honorable and respectful of writers, when, sorry, a lot of people in this business are not.

BTW, I'm not a bitter, unpublished writer, either. I have a great agent and a YA novel coming out this summer. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that at times, this business has broken my heart.

I think this agent is divinely sneaky. And efficient.

She's getting the message out to a whole lot of would-be writers at once (and who else reads Miss Snark's blog?) that people who take form rejections to mean anything other than 'no thanks' are way WAY too tied up with themselves.

Sneaky, and snarky.

I hope that next time I say something really ummm ummm not as bright and scintillating as it should be, that I'm thought of as brilliant too.

I think she was hurt by what she read about herself. I think she didn't intend to upset anyone beyond saying, "no." And I think she felt put upon and abused by the unintended responses to her form letter.

We can't control the reactions of others, and neither do we need to slap back.

She has my profoundest Pixie sympathies. I still want to see the form letter.

Sorry to weigh in late here, but the whole wananbes ranting foolishly about rejection letters thing has been rather famously covered by a well known Tor editor: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html

Agent:

Don't sweat it. Writers make themselves look like morons, not you.

Smart writers vent to one another and our friends (who care) when we get a rejection. All it really means is our feelings were hurt. Those of us who can get over it and keep writing might eventually succeed.

Those of us who give up after multiple rejections... just leave more room for the persistent (and, of course, talented) to get accepted.

In any case, YOU don't look bad unless you snipe back. But sure, put those writers on your own little List of Horrors. Share it with friends or fellow agents, if you want. If those horrors wrote a great novel, though, wouldn't you change your mind?

The absolute best response to a rejection letter is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU4S2BIqoHY

If the agent can't take rejection, then get out of the business. She can hand it out, but can't take it herself. That's pretty funny! So I guess writers have to take it because they are the ones who slaved over their books for years--they are the ones with the talent and the creativity--but agents who spend ten minutes on the book are allowed to comment on it but writers can't comment back. Huh!!! Did she even think twice about asking such a rediculous question.

Oh, dear! ;-)

Doesn't that just say it all.

And what a motto that is!

I should have mentioned that this comes from:
http://101reasonstostopwriting.blogspot.com/2007/05/your-may-demotivator.html

I didn't realize it was going to be posted, or I would have been more careful in my email!

Oh, that is amusing.

It's also funny in the headslap fashion, as in *headslap* "why did I think of that!"

Oh dear.

Perhaps this should be the new cover for every how-to book/magazine, and appear on all writers' websites.

I can't think of a better way to get the message across....

Too funny!

Oh, I have to add that picture to my blog...

Well, paper is cheap.

HAHAHA

I love it.

Course, that person might have faired better to send in the actual manuscript instead of receipts.

That is so mean, so nasty. So delightfully funny!
You are a scamp! If I wanted to send you gin, where would I?

I've just spent a long day reading a screenplay slush pile and I needed a laugh. It was a bitter one, but hearty.

LOL! Well, that certainly gets the point across, doesn't it?

A picture DOES say 1000 words, after all.

The writer's mistake was obvious: they sent the bribe via credit card instead of cash

(this post makes a lot more sense if you hone in on the VISA receipts in the picture...)

I'd never thought of this. I could save my prospective agents time and run it through the shredder before I send it.

(this post makes a lot more sense if you hone in on the VISA receipts in the picture...)

home, for the love of dog! home in.

Painful!

Least we forget the importance of Guidelines, Oh Dear! Indeed!!!!

very funny

I think I am going to a dark lonely place and cry....

That was my New Age, Web 2.0, Blogosphere Novel! I recognize it because I wrote in on the back of my credit card receipts and sent the cover letter on blue (ocean scented) stationary.
I guess I will not be getting a response - I think that I see my SASE in there. Probably had 39 cent stamp on it anyway.

ocean scented?
like...fish?
or low tide?

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

No wonder Killer Yapp wanted to sign you up.

From dictionary.com:

Phrasal Verb(s):
hone in

To move or advance toward a target or goal: The missiles honed in on the military installation.
To direct one's attention; focus: The lawyer honed in on the gist of the plaintiff's testimony.

Fish - that way you had to read it right away. I figured that you would not want that to sit in your slushpile. Next time I'll try steakbone scented paper despite the fact that I suggest people avoid eating steak.

Ha ha ha! It looks like I turned into "otterb"!

-Bitter

I then decided to write it up anyway and send a bound copy - to show her I can get published. Here is what I got back.

For some reason that reminds me of the trick test a teacher gave me in high school, where #1 was to read all the directions before writing and #30 was to leave the paper blank.

The number of people who need this poster is a sad thing to contemplate... funny, but sad.

how delightfully one-sided

Thank you, Miss Snark, for linking to this.

Do ya think that deadline is for real?

I can assure you that deadline is UTTERLY for real, though I've been told that there is also a Sunday, May 12th in 2013, so if you remember to submit a funny one then, I just might send you something.

And, my dear Miss Snark, consider yourself blog-tagged. I know you're not a team player, but I think it would be interesting to see you do a post
within the guidelines
without letting your identity show.

The deadline is Sunday, May 12th. The next time May 12th is on a Sunday in in 2013, so there's plenty of time to compose your essays!

I already sent mine. Which probably disqualifies me.

I was meaning to do something about that contest...

Hey, I'm gonna get in on this contest. I think I'll send something in next week. Or maybe the week after that. Or -- ah, hell, I think I'll go start my tax return now...

Typo! Typo! It's fixed on the blog - it's 12 noon EST May 13th (Sunday). Yikes! If you guys weren't procrastinating until the last minute you could just send it in now you know. ;)

Here I was thinking I had 6 years to get it right! Now I've less than 24 hours. That is harsh!!!

Hey, is the Fourth Estate trying to poach on the hallowed anarchic grounds of the Fifth? Though, since the Fifth Estate *is* a periodical, perhaps one could make a case for a shared claim.

When you're querying agents and other professionals in publishing, writing background and pub credits really do make a difference and at the very least you are treated with a certain amount of respect...but only when the actual agent handles the query personally.

If you get an intern you may as well have been a ditch-digger all your life because previously published works, no matter how extensive, mean nothing to them. But don't be discouraged by this, and you have to realize it really is all about the project at hand and not what you've done in the past.

So let me get this straight.

An author who could spend half an hour on google instead pays $400 to a guy who knows less than my cat (a sweet animal, but she's not particularly intelligent even for a cat) to call agents and annoy them in order to narrow the agent querying process? When said author could query every agent in the known universe for far less than $400?

Perhaps I misunderstood, as I am wont to do. But if not, this is just so incredibly stupid and scammy I can't even get my mind around it.

Sounds like the guy knows how to find loads of people who will pay good money for a ration of hope, even if it is hope of the false variety.

This is so funny. I always research the agents I am going to query. And the other week I came across this guy's site for the very first time.

I was sure that there was nothing more in his reports than what is in agents websites.

I searched his list for a couple of well known agents I knew of - and there were nothing on them. I smelt a rat - and there was one.

But if I was a new writer - it could have been so easy to get sucked by this man.

Why pay to get info on 6-8 agents when some research of your own can give you many more candidates for far less money. This has scam written all over it. If you are desperate for advice, buy "Writer's Market" for $50 and get over 1000 pages of agent information. Hmmm, what is the better deal here?

The Agent Research & Evaluation blog claims that "agents, even the best ones, are probably placing something like 20% of what they take on."

What I love about it is that even if this guy actually produces six to eight agents who could, in theory, be "perfect" for your project, that's only six to eight agents. Most of us aren't lucky enough to land an agent after sending out fewer than 10 queries. Or, you know. Fewer than 4 dozen.

I'm an agent at a big agency, and this guy is rude, insulting, and deeply uninformed. He's belligerent to both assistants and the few full agents he actually gets on the phone with. And for $20 a month, you can join Publishers Marketplace and get your hands on all the info he's regurgitating. He's a total asshole and this is a total scam.

Oh my god, is this like hiring an agent... to find an agent?!

I think I just heard a small implosion in the space-time continuum.

Anyone who insists in their professional correspondence that their stuff is 'absolutely legitimate' doth protest too much. I don't see the head of Curtis Brown going around banging on about how legitimate they are, do you?

the blog at agentresearch has comments turned off so even if you want to take issue with something they say, you can't.

Interesting.

How is what this guy is doing different from agentquery.com and a writer's own research?

Weird that he is still even in business.

Sadly, I'm guessing the people who probably fall for his scam are the elderly who don't know how to use the Internet and are terrified/unwilling to learn. For people with no knowledge of the Internet, I imagine embarking on agent research is much more difficult and intimidating.

...unless people find this guy via his website, and they think this dude is actually personally referring them as clients to the agents and therefore giving them a better shot. Ugh. Either way, it makes my head feel like a cracked coconut. Recommend an agent who can sell writing like THAT, AR&E!

Tell him in no uncertain terms that he is a bottomfeeder and you are standing by with tartar sauce and a nice Chianti.

($400.00 buys a lot of wine [or Bombay Sapphire] and condiments.)

For $20 you can access Publishers Marketplace for a month, and search all the deals yourself. For free you can google agents, check their web sites, check out agentquery.com, verlakay.com (children's and YA), and absolute write.

Betcha I know more than he does--and I don't even have an agent (yet).

Agentresearch offers the added "service" of a critique of your query letter for ONLY $100!

can you belive these people?

A reputable online class costs a lot less, and you get information from decent people, not scam artistis.

"I recently had a very enlightening conversation with a valued colleague who said she'd rather look at excellent work outside her normal interest area than not-excellent work for the categories she's sold previously."

I've often told aspiring writers to find agents who have sold books within their genre or category, assuming that these agents would have connections with appropriate editors. Was this nitwit advice?

Active agents in Canada? I thought we didn't have literary agents in Canada (or that they were pretty rare). Or maybe the book editor I was talking to was pulling my leg?

I heard this guy speak at a conference I attended three years ago--the data in his handouts was really old (many of the writers on his list had moved on from the agent he had them listed with) and he was pretty obnoxious and full of himself. It was weird, because I knew someone who'd used him a few years before that who thought he was great, and I was sitting there going "what the....?"

Not to worry, youngling.

Readers can read books faster than we can write 'em.

Write well and you will sell.

And the next time you fling a bloody awful book across the room and declare "I can do better than THAT!" siddown and prove it.

Worked pretty well for me.

New authors are published all the time; I know of a few over on the Absolute Write forum, so it can be done (and, yes, they met with rejection at first, too).

What it takes is dedication, perseverance, and the ability to tell a story in an entertaining way (among other things ;-)).

Good luck.

~JerseyGirl

Ha! The online writers community is way smaller than the writers community as a whole. It's just a wee little subset.

Miss Snark,

I am going to have to agree and disagree to your answer too this email.

Here is what I would have answered:

"Is there room on the shelves for more books?"
There's always room for more books.

"Do I really have a chance at landing an agent and a publishing deal?"
Not with an attitude like that. If you are questioning your ability then there are 2 things you can do. Practice and get better so you don't have to ask this question or quit.

"Does anyone?"
With the right attitude, practice and persistence then yes.

If only one person in every thirty thousand bought your book, you would be considered a success.
the math:
There are 300 million people in the USA. divide by 10,000 books and you get 30,000 people.
That's better odds than the lottery.

It is easy to be overwhelmed. Educate yourself first. The link http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2007/05/victoria-strauss-learning-ropes.html is a great place to start.

If you're writing only to get published, you'll likely quit in frustration.

If you're writing because you love the craft, and you'd continue to write whether you get published or not, you stand a chance.

Educate yourself about the industry, yes. But first and foremost, concentrate on your craft.

I'm a slush pile success. It can happen, and it's not even that uncommon. But by the time I landed an agent and a book deal, I'd put 10 years into my writing.

What I know for sure: If I lose my publishing career tomorrow, I'll still be tapping at the keyboard.

That's better odds than the lottery.

Just about everything has better odds than the lottery.

Twenty years ago when I was still in college and began querying agents and submitting short stories to editors I found much of the same advice being given then that new writers are seeing now. It's always been an uphill struggle for writers. The only differernce now is the internet and the fact that we don't have to visit the post office as often. And, getting help and advice through blogs like this one makes life better for new writers, too, because it's free.

But there have always been "would-be authors" who are "querying and getting rejected" and there probably always will be. You have to persist, and sometimes bite your tongue, but the more you write the better you get.

Hey, just because all the other writer wannabes suck doesn't mean you do.

Yeah. I got some room on my shelves for more books, soon as I move the philodendren.

Watcha got?

Hey, I'm working on my third revision of my query letter. Guess what happens if, once I finalize it and send it out to my next batch of agents, it doesn't get any bites?

I'll start work on the fourth version.

Just look at the Deals emails from Publishers Marketplace. There are a handful of debut fiction writers in nearly every email.

Did someone say LOTTERY?

I was going to comment but everybody pretty much said what I was going to say except for this.
I write because I must right. My primary motivation is for me to express myself and only secondarily for readers to read my words and hear my story.
Being published is an added bonus. If I did not have an agent or if my book was not sold I would still be writing.
I still AM writing.

Just read Miss Snark for a while and you'll see a pattern:

"Write well."

"Just write well."

"Stop obsessing, new writer, and write well."

"There's no secret, grasshopper, just write well."

"Don't worry, just wr-- WHAT? YOU HAD A FUCKING AVATAR OF YOURSELF IN YOUR LETTERHEAD?? ARE YOU CRAZY? I TOSS THOSE QUERIES RIGHT AWAY! WHAT KIND OF HIGH-MAINTENANCE EGOTISTIC FUCKTARD ARE YOU???-- Now, where was I? Oh yes, write well. Lord knows why you writers just can't get that simple message through your head."

Miss Snark: Mistress of the one-word response that speaks volumes.

I think what you're experiencing now is that "cripes" moment when you cross from the realm of the clueless to the world of the educated aspiring author.

It's like you've been jogging along in solitude, expecting the finish line is right around the corner. And then you turn that corner and see that you've been straggling along behind the Boston Marathon - and not only are there 24 miles left to run, but there are thousands of people ahead of you, running toward the same goal. And some of them have been running for years. It can freak you out. It can make you feel like the whole thing is hopeless.

It isn't.

There may not be any shortcuts, but you CAN move to the head of the pack and get published. Just keep taking steps in the right direction.

Having just landed an agent through querying two weeks ago I can share with you my secret.

Work hard and work harder.

You must learn your craft - and write the best book you can. Be persistant. You will get rejections but don't see them as negative. Learn from them and move on.

Avoid the pretty writing and just tell a good story.

You'll be surprised just how far that will take you.

Congratulations, Tracey!

And to the OP: I feel your pain. It's a long road, but we'll get there.

You just can't quit. I told my mother I thought I would stop sending queries out for my novel after 100 of them.

When I told her I landed my agent after I had queried about 150 of the, she asked, "I thought you were going to quit at 100."

I said, "Had I done that, I wouldn't have an agent now, would I?"

Not that I'm a published novelist yet, but I also live by these two mantras/quotes. The first, by Cindy Proctor-King: It takes Talent, Persistence and Timing to make it in this biz.

The other: Henry Ford said: If you think you can do a thing, or think you CAN'T do a thing, you're right.

Keep at it new person! And believe in your work. Hang out here and in other writing online lounges and you'll learn a ton! (and meet great people cyberly and sometimes in real life)

Take heart, have hope, listen to Miss Snark, and maybe a little "original" Dylan:

In my craft or sullen art
Exercised in the still night
When only the moon rages
And the lovers lie abed
With all their griefs in their arms,
I labor by singing light
Not for ambition or bread
Or the strut and trade of charms
On the ivory stages
But for the common wages
Of their most secret heart.

Not for the proud man apart
From the raging moon I write
On these spindrift pages
Nor for the towering dead
With their nightingales and psalms
But for the lovers, their arms
Round the griefs of the ages,
Who pay no praise or wages
Nor heed my craft or art. --Dylan Thomas

The world needs MORE good writers!

I think the publishing industry would be in better shape if they only published quality. There is an amazing volume of garbage on the shelves at your local big box or chain bookstore.

If you want to learn about GOOD writing, get to an independent bookstore as quickly as possible.

Don't forget to use your library card to checkout books Miss Snark says to read. :-)

Above all, keep writing.

Shawn - you owe me a new keyboard. :-)

I just love Miss Snark's one-word answers. So powerful and to-the-point. And so true.

I hate it when my posts seem to be flushed down the great blogger toilet. The world is so cruel!

Hey, It's okay to stress and worry. It's part of the great writer's though process. Besides, it fill the time while you're waiting for your rejection letter.

There's a chance if you do your homework. If not you pretend to win the Gather.com contest. Yur relatives still think you're wonderful.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976972430

Every possible writing violation is present and accounted for. Telling; infodumping; adverbiosis; saidisms and no trace of a story present.

Oh, well, attribute all the misspellings in my previous post to being too tired and over medicated. I can spel sumtimes

Read my mind! After honing my query letter to a razor-sharp point, to whit I can now sing it to a showtunes beat, I finally sent it out to half a dozen agents last week. Only to realize that they'll have to add postage to the SASEs, something I thought Miss Snark would roundly denounce. Thank you for setting my mind at rest. Until I think of the next thing to obsess about...

Wow. The post office is celebrating my birthday with a postage increase. Grrr. :D

Another way to deal with this is for authors to put their own address as the return address on the SASE. That way, if there is not enough postage, the envelope will come back to your local post office where they will hold it for you until you pay the shortfall.

On the flip side, I've got a short story out with a SASE that I sent in January. The estimated response time passed two weeks ago, but I figure I'll be justified in sending them an e-mail if I haven't received a response by Monday,

Actually, really smart queriers are going to know that stocking up on "forever" stamps is a losing proposition unless they do so immediately before the next rate increase. Inflation moves faster than the post office.

There was a post on this over at The Rejecter's blog recently. One commenter, named "the mailman," (4th down) seemed to know what he was talking about when he explained the reasons for it.

http://rejecter.blogspot.com/2007/05/postage-alert.html

Okay, I hate to admit this. Especially given Miss Snark's feelings for the good 'ol US Postal Service, but I am one the the few the proud, the disgruntled ... A Postal Worker.

Fret not fellow queriers. If an agents drops your SASE into the mail and it is a few pennies short of full postage (the same can be said about most of us postal workers by the way) it will still get delivered as postage due. You will get a nice little envelope telling you how much money your kindly postal carrier had to spend out of his own pocket to ensure your form rejection letters arrival at its proper destination. Because we all know nothing good ever comes in the mail.

Actaully that's not true, I got a lovely little rejection letter just this week that smelled of lilac petals, vanilla, and just a hint of hope.

Not true, that nothing good ever comes in the mail--I got a request for a partial in my SASE. Unfortunately, I was never able to contact the agent when I got another offer of representation--no response to two phone calls, a fax, and an email to the agency site. Oh well!

I got smart and bought two booklets of "Forever" stamps yesterday. Now all I need are query letters to attach them to... and, of course, a finished novel (sigh).

THat's motivation to hit the slush pile. With the amount of queries you get, those two-centers will add up!

Didn't you guys have a postage increase earlier this year already? I'm just waiting for the first postage decrease, but of course those never happen.

Molly said: Actually, really smart queriers are going to know that stocking up on "forever" stamps is a losing proposition unless they do so immediately before the next rate increase.

I just checked usps.com and the forever stamps are currently going for $0.41, so it looks like that saving-two-cents window has just closed!

*wonders*

Since all my queries have my address on both the "to" and "from" sections ... will they get returned anyway even if they don't have correct postage?

:P

Also, it's good to note that the Breast Cancer stamps have *always* been forever stamps. I buy these on general principles (B.C. unfortunately runs in my family) but it's good to know that you never have to add 2 cent stamps with them. Plus you're helping a great cause!!

I sent out several queries in early April...I new about the postal rate increase, asked my local USPS branch for the 'forever' stamp. And guess what they told me?

"Oh, that's not coming out until May."

Argh!

I was hoping most SASEs would get back to me, but I'm still waiting on a few. I hope other agents are as kind as you are, Miss Snark, and add those penny stamps.

Fie on the post office!

No offense to the author, but, man, when you say 'Golf novel' I hope there's more to it than a novel about golf, because gaw that's boring. I hope there's at least some guns or kissing involved. Those type of things can really spice up a golf game and they might work in a novel, too.

Problem is, I'll be attempting to sell a golf novel...

But what's it about? Is it a murder mystery? Using golf as a metaphor for life or something else (in that case, my best guess would be it's literary fiction)?

Do you see what I'm getting at, author? It's not a "golf novel"; such a thing doesn't exist as a genre or a shelf where a bookseller can place it, as Miss Snark says.

Look at the different elements that make up your story. Look at the examples Miss Snark gave you and look for clues as to what it is.

Whatever you decide to do, please don't send it out to agents or publishers touting it as a golf novel, 'kay? :-)

~JerseyGirl

Particularly enjoying a mid-afternoon giggle at the Snarky answer on this one, because over here in England 'Well Oiled' means very, very drunk.

"well oiled" is one of my favorite multiple meaning phrases

There is a highly developed sports genre in the realm of movies, so I disagree with those who say that this "golf novel" must really be a murder mystery or a romance or something.

But it is true that there isn't a developed sports genre at all in the realm of novels, let alone a micro-niche like golf novels. When you're dealing with a situation like this, you have to fit your novel somewhere, and you'll probably end up choosing from the two big grab-bags of fiction: literary or commercial.

The best option is probably to label it as commercial fiction, unless it has strong elements of some other recognized genre. If you run around calling it a "golf novel" or even a "sports novel" you'll just make trouble for yourself.

As to seeking agents, seek those who work with commercial fiction. If you want to narrow it down, you might seek out sports-related books that are similar to yours and see who agented them, but that wouldn't be a requirement.

Yeah, but make sure you widely query only those agents that rep your type of book. Don't query a nonfic agent if you write fic.

So, narrow it down to the agents who rep what you write, then query them ALL. Query smarter, not harder.

Same with publishers. Nothing makes me reach for the cluegun faster than an author who can't read the directions/submission guidelines. Like when you say 'no children's books', and there are ten freaking children's books in the pile.

Makes my hair smoke. (not quite bad enough to set it on fire.)

If it's the one I've been seeing on Publisher's Marketplace, you should be pitching it to agents who take mysteries that are similar. By similar, I mean a type of mystery that introduces the reader to niche in society or an occupation that they've never experienced before. You should be looking at the agents who have represented--this is just off the top of my head--needlework mysteries, ice skating mysteries, cooking mysteries, forensic paint mysteries, auction mysteries, cruise ship mysteries ... There's plenty out there, and it's fairly easy to research.

But also make sure your story really does work right and fits in with the genre. Sometimes the problem isn't with who should take it but with the story itself.

And I swear, Google makes it really hard with these word verifications. I swear I'm typing it in right, but it's still taking me three tries.

Please also take a look at Dan Jenkins, who's written several funny golf novels. Slim and None begins: "It had to be the first bare navel on the Masters veranda." I defy you to pick up that book and stop reading after the first sentence.

Another Jenkins book begins: "Say hello to your light-running money-whipped steer-job three-jack give-up artist. This is pretty good. Man talking to himself. But it's me, all right. Your no-heart Mother Goose who blowed about $80,000 in the last round of the Hawaiian Open today."

Jenkins wrote Semi-Tough about thirty years ago, and it's still the best book about pro football.

MS: "Agents can't be like long lost cousins of lottery winners coming out of the woodwork suddenly when there's money to be had."

Why not?

Dear anonymous,
They don't have to be if you read your contract and understand it. What do we say about contracts - read and understand before signing?

There's that word LOTTERY again...

If I think my agent has not sent to every publisher I think she should, I email her and ask about it, and ask if she'll contact them.

She does.

If you rejections are getting a consistent comment, by all means revise! Use Novel #2 to land a new agent, then tell him/her about #1 (once you've revised) and see if they want to do something with it. Good luck!

i liked #1 the best.

Wow, I made Miss Snark LAUGH?? That's almost better than WINNING. :D

#5 :)

#22
A finalist? Wow. Thanks, Miss Snark!

I like 65, but they're all funny.

I love it! Awesome! The prize winner is brilliant!

Of course after I sent mine, I realized I messed up the middle line--5 syllables (duh!).

Thanks for putting me up there in spite of that flub!

Miss Snark picks the best.
Her taste for words "mwa" divine.
Happy day, Mr. P.


I knew there would be ramifications for thinking of a chummy chance grave rainbow haiku. Nevertheless, it was fun.

Ah, poor Basho must be rolling in his grave. :)

By the standards of haiku, number 37 comes closest.

Chums of Chance balloon
into inverted rainbows
Pynchon's gravity

There is the (obscure) seasonal reference to summer (rainbows) and a turn between lines 2 and 3 with the 3rd line moderating the meaning of lines 1 and 2.

For an excellent journal of modern english language haiku (and other eastern forms), see www.worldhaikureview.org.

/end poetic critique mode.

Enjoyed reading these, Miss Snark. Kudos to the clever submitters.

And congrats to all the honorees.

I'm endlessly delighted to have made you laugh. :)

#65 thanks for the chuckle!

Can't believe I was granted the ‘boldest statement of the obvious’ by Anonymous #4, and that I made Miss Snark’s list of finalists. I’m flattered and tickled pink.

Thanks!
-Bitter
(#2)

Wow! What a surprise to be a finalist amongst this talented group! Thank you, Miss Snark, for the contest and the recognition.

And thank you to ljcohen, for saying such nice things.

#27

So much talent!
Bravo!

I kind of still don't get some of them.

Seventy Haikus...
Thoughts permanently stuck in
syllabic pattern.

Congratulations
to all participants and
winners. This was fun.

They were all good and well done to all and sundry mentioned and to the winner, seems a reasonable choice.

Just out of curiosity were you inundated with entries or did the format put people off?

But what's the prize????

Heck, isn't that what we watch all the games shows for -- to see those "fabulous prizes?"

Congrats, winner!!!

Thanks, Miss Snark, and to all the poetic Snarklings. As for me:

when I finish Proust
maybe then at last I’ll start
Gravity’s Rainbow.

Congrats to everyone who made it through :)
Next time, I'll watch my spelling of "Yapp" (two Ps!)

-----
Listing on billows
Antwerp's hulk drowns inken knights
Chums of chance for sharks
-----

I'm a big fan of #65. Hilarious.

That's, that's, that's ten submissions per minute, and you retained the right NOT to publish them all?
Remind me to never, ever, look at your slush pile!

Thanks for the fun ;)

Oh, my goodness, how weird - I was going to do one with the same idea as #67 but couldn't finish it in time. Glad somebody could!
#51

hahaha... 70 haikus for 70 years

I wanted to compete too. But I lost track of the time. Here is what I got:

Born to march
To rainbows we march, to faith
To oblivion

...

Sent one with dot and
One no dot in killer yapp
Oops. Made it through twice.

There's definitely something to be said for the good ole American haiku. Tasty, satisfying, and yet I always have room for more. I liked the ones with puns the best.

I hope this cyber wave of goodwill soon reaches its intended target with all pixels and digits intact.
His big book, my little world, rocket.

Boldest statement of the obvious:
#2

Most upsetting statement of co-dependency:
#4

Most prosodic "Look! I've read Pynchon!" show-off:
#6

Most internally-logical pinchin' pun:
#21

Most unintentionally orgasmic:
#30

Most unintelligibly true to Japanese form:
#34

Best concise precis of Gravity's Rainbow:
#36

Most ink-covered passport:
#38

Biggest throat-lump:
#41

Experiential memesis nominee:
#44

Ironic sour grapes nominee:
#48

Miss Snark stutter-button nominee:
#53 & #56

Well-intended misappropriation award:
#62

Miss Snark stutter-button award:
#57 & #66

Experiential memesis award:
#65

most highfalutin language award:
anonymous above :)

I was going to make some kind of reference to Pynchon being so close to Pinchot, but I was pretty doubtful anybody would remember the actor who played Balki on Perfect Strangers 20 years ago.

Whoa, My head spinneth
Reading Chummy Pynchon 'Ku's.
Bad week to stop meds.

--This works only if you say Whoa really, really fast, so it comes out quickly as just one syllable.

Also, note the abbreviated word for the plural form of haiku-- I know the second apostrophe should not be there, but it's like one of those I dos where it looks like dos instead of do's, or if you're saying he got straight As and it looks like straight as instead of the letter A.

See, isn't it obvious just by reading what I'm posting that I should not have stopped my meds?!?

Did I miss what the big prize is?

#1 has an enjoyable vulgar charm.

#21/26 best use the words.

#20 and #34 are nicely poetic.

#12's kinda cute.

#23 , 47: good reference to other Pynchon work.

#53 is my second-favorite (like the anti-war refs).

#62 is my personal favorite, though is "Inspired by recent events in Kansas" a cheat?

#65 is by me (thanks, Cory & anonymous--I think. [bows modestly]).

Two of the DQed ones are really good, as is rei's.

Marcus T - doan be redeec-o-loas!

Congratulations to everyone! I loved reading them all.

I was on the road at the appointed time - but here's mine:

----
Miss Snark, you give us
Ten syllables already
Only seven left
----

Don't know this Pynchon
Chums of Chance? Poker buddies?
Haiku. God bless you.

Wow. Having read all the entries, I can easily say that mine (#11) sucks compared to the rest. Well played, all of you.

Snarktests are the best
put your writing to the test
will gin bribe the judge?

arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh. /me curses, gnashes, and curses some more.

All it took was two hours for me to forget to pay attention.

V for visceral
writing that moves mind and soul
the nose job killed me

I liked 9 and 17 - they even obey the real rules of haiku pretty well (references to the seasons/weather properly included).

Number one has a certain ring to it.

But what do we win? I really need a new piano.

And yes, I am a nitwit, and will gladly take a shot from the cluegun to protect my fellow nitwits. It is 8pm Eastern, right? This Greenwich mean time thing has me frightened that I will email you at the wrong time, and miss out on my chance to win that new piano.

Stolen from an awesome t-shirt:

Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator

Hooray new Snarktest!

(Note: Sorry if this was submitted multiple times. Blogger obviously doesn't find this as funny as I)

Greenwich Mean Time is what folks in the military call Zulu time... but it's been 10 years since I was in the Navy, and Zulu time confused the hell out of me back then, too....

It does say Eastern time in the post, marcus t.

I look forward to reading the entries, but this is a contest in which I will not be participating. I had a writing teacher once who really really tried to help me learn how to write poetry, but we decided my soul isn't deep enough. Or something. So no haikus for this fish.

good luck, y'all!

I love haiku.

On the forum for my husband's online comic, Errant Story, we once had a discussion thread which was almost entirely in haiku. There were over 100 posts about the characters, plot, and fan conversations, and most of the posts contained more than one haiku. Sadly, most of them also contained references that were not work-safe because at the time the forum participants were terribly fond of acting like deviants, so I cannot link the thread.

I will post an excerpt from a discussion of spoilers, though:

Fan: Imp-Chan being mean
She has the inside info
Does not spill the beans

Me: Any shared answers
Ruin the discovery
For everyone else.

Another bit of t-shirt wisdom, from the pen of Lester Smith:

Counting syllables
Mentioning cherry blossoms
This is not haiku

Just saying....

and I won't be near internet at 8 PM EST.
Rats. I was told that Haikus traditionally had something to do with nature.

Central Park squirrels
Will plot the overthrow of
Rabbitania.

Does Killer Yapp's e-mail address include a dot between his first and last name? Is Miss Snark's own e-mail address still acting up?

MS writes...

Miss Snark reserves the right to not post all the entries (finally getting smart!).

Don't frett. The Proctologist is not entering.

Haste yee back ;-)

Hey Anonymous
Forget the silly t-shirt
Post link for cute guy

Cheers,

Properly, a haiku should be a single moment, and the 5-7-5 structure translates awkwardly to English-- it's a count of Japanese on, not English syllables. A haiku is also a seasonal poem (in that it must contain a key word that identifies the season-- if it's not tied to a season, it's a different poem, possibly a senryu)

No seasons indoors.
Here at my word processor
I write just senryu

Seeing as -

Pynchon
Gravity
Rainbow
Chums of Chance

- have already taken up 10 of the total 17 syllables in a haiku, I think I'll just watch with a cup of tea.

To further what Anon #2 said:

Americans often focus on one aspect of Haiku, and one aspect alone: 5, 7, 5. It just shows our poor understanding of the artform.

1) 5, 7, 5 isn't the only stanza for haiku.

2) That was originally 5, 7, 5 in *Japanese*. Japanese syllables are shorter than English syllables, so it's an even tighter restriction. For example, in English, we words like "crimps" that are a single syllable. In Japanese, the closest you could get to pronouncing that would be something like "ku-ri-mu-pu-su". Their syllables are typically either a single vowel or consonant-vowel. Picture Japanese names for examples of this -- Hirohito (Hi-ro-hi-to). Yamamoto (Ya-ma-mo-to). Etc.

3) The key aspect of haiku is often omitted: references to nature. You're trying to capture a perfect aspect of the natural world in a tiny number of syllables.

My favorite haiku is one Nick Virgilio wrote about his brother, who died during the Vietnam war:

Lily
Out of the water
Out of itself



Many haiku purists consider even this to be improper, because it's forcing a metaphor onto the scene. The "perfect" haiku is supposedly one that comes to the observer instantly, already in perfection of form. However, Virgilio's haiku reportedly pleased the emperor, and that's a good enough authority for my tastes ;)

Checking Miss Snark late
I can't believe I missed it!
Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn.

HAH! Well, I look forward to seeing if mine gets posted. I'm confused though by the email to use... www[dot]gmail[dot]com ????

Damn. Now I can't leave work until 5:01 pm. You're a cruel woman Snark! One of your best qualities!

NEVERMIND!

It was a DAH! moment. I got it:

miss.snark[at]gmail[dot]com

Whatever the prize
Makes no difference to me
Contest I have missed

I couldn't write a haiku to save my life, but I'm looking forward to reading them all.

Er...it's not 8 PM Eastern yet, guys. You haven't missed it.

- Wonderer, who might be able to write a poem of 5, 7, 5 but greatly doubts her ability to write a true haiku

It's 5 P.M. in
Eastern Standard Time zone, folks.
You haven't missed it yet!

Heather, proving why she is NOT a poet!

If we are feeling particularly clever, can we submit more than one?

Gravity's Rainbow
Is so hard to read, I barfed
Bananas for days.

We pixies don't Haiku. We don't Kung Fu either.

We sing a lot, play with goats ... and are so busy writing a biography of a really obscure twit ... umm I mean 19th Century "prophet" that we won't learn how either.

I'm 'bout done with it though. And now the really hard part sits on my computer screen: Reducing this mass of words to 7-10K for a journal article, which if it passes a tough peer review will see the light of day next year sometime, maybe. I hope. … Though today I'd feed it all to Bill E. Goat and tell all those nice people waiting on me to forget it.

But I'll read your High Koos. ... You write. I read!

So ... Bill E. wants to know ... When do we have a best novel by a Goat contest?

May we submit more than one haiku?

Not elegible.
So:

Gravity of years,
And a pot of gold waiting
Beneath the rainbow.

panicked and flustered
unable to tell the time
nitwits fail the test

quick, before the window opens/closes:
Happy Birthday to you
They say it's your birthday
Happy Birthday to you,DearT.R.
Happy Birthday to you!!!
(sound of more than one hand clapping?)

Nooooo! Email bounce! I fired mine off to [email protected]. Two Ps in Yapp!

Oh, how dumb could I be? I resent it, but it's probably too late :(

Miss Snark, if you're reading, mine was the "Listing on billows" one... but I know that rules are rules, and that sometimes a one-letter typo can mean you miss out :(

watch it - it's to kileryapp, not miss.snark! muscle memory? nitwittery? Lucy pulling the football? Augh!

Couldn't get through in time so am posting here:

If you ask the wrong question,
Answers don't matter
To Thomas Pynchon

8:01 p.m.
issued No. 29
lot of syllables!

Arg! Was so annoyed, I reversed my first and second lines.

You can't really have a good poem without the word "Nantucket".

"panicked and flustered
unable to tell the time
nitwits fail the test"

What do I know of Haikus? Absolutely nothing but this made me chuckle....

The haikus purists are funny too. So many have been so serious about spreading knowledge of the "proper" haikus but it made me learn something new today....

Haiku is not just
the Japanese poetry.
The meaning expands.

In other words, the western meaning of the term Haiku has long since gone beyond the original Japanese meaning and associated guidelines. The loosest definition as taught in schools for the last decade or more is that of the 5-7-5 syllables, with occasional reference made to the traditional focus on nature and the seasons.

We all know that the English language is a bit of a bully... the original meaning and cultural impact of haiku as a form never stood a chance once removed from the tone and inflection native to the Japanese language. There's a degree of reverence and respect built into that language and culture which is just not as present in English.

(Also, Japanese makes a LOT more sense. Their sentences are made from building blocks, and while there are complicated rules about how to stack them, at least the edges are fairly regular. English is more like a jigsaw puzzle cut by a madman.)

Gravity's Rainbow was one that I struggled though. However, I loved Vineland as well as Mason & Dixon.

Happy Birthday Mr. Pynchon, master of the long sentence, poetic prose, characters with inner lives, souls a wry sense of humor, satyr and creator of at least one character who knew when to wear a dress.

Some feel that an attempt to recreate the 5-7-5 structure using stresses as opposed to syllables may produce an English haiku closer to the Japanese.

Up here, an excess of rodents is called Rodentation. Like, "My brother is suffering from rodentation in his house, to such an extent that he loaded the place with cats and fled for New York."

TRAPPED, like rodentia on a foundering schooner!

I'm curious about your opinion on the French presidential elections.

All of my French friends (both of them anyway), voted for Sarkozy. They weren't voting as much FOR him as AGAINST her, saying she was so brainless it was scary. Now, that could be a segue into American politics....

But I otherwise have no comments on rodents or their habits.

Cheers,

Well said, takoda.

Clearly Miss Snark is unhappy that a pig didn't win the French election. You know... the kind of pig that is more equal than other pigs.

This is an odd coincidence--I'm going today for a rat (our pet store finally carries female ones, yay!).

We have pet rats and they are actually lovely little creatures. (Contrary to popular opinion)

They are *not* the same rats you see skulking around dumpsters in Chinatown.

Ours are named Ghost and Nikko.

:)

My all time favorite line from Sex and the City. Carrie is staying at a rustic cabin with her boyfriend and is terrified by a squirrel.
Clueless boyfriend: But, it's only a squirrel!
Carrie: A squirrel is just a rat with a better wardrobe.

But I really want to name my rats Miss Snark and Killer Yapp! I think it'd also be a great name for a band -- Miss Snark and the Killer Yapps.

I think rats make great pets, too. You'd be surprised how many people wrinkle their noses in disgust when I tell them, though. Fools, all of 'em! :D

It's the tails--people can't get past the tails. Nevermind that they're the most intelligent pets I've ever owned, not to mention loving and sweet (never had a rat bite me, whereas hamsters...), when people see the tail they start freaking out.

I think you're right. Most people seem squeamish about the tails.

I've never been bitten by rats, either. Even when they were so nervous that they left little presents in my hand. I think they make good pets for little children, especially, since they're much easier to take care of than dogs. Parents don't need to help out as much. Teaches responsibility and all that. And they're really quite lovable. :D My friend's eight-year-old brother has two (although one just died *sad face*) and he's risen to the occasion.

And hamsters are nasty little creatures.

Have a look at THIS, Ms. Snark:

http://tinyurl.com/37l2n4

I'm still trying to imagine how I'll feel when (if) I ever receive an acceptance from an agent and have to start worrying about a contract. Of course, this means I'll have to finish my novel, perfect it, revise it, rewrite it, re-perfect it, and figure out how to write a query without sounding like a nitwit.

Whoa. We are a weird bunch, aren't we? I couldn't imagine making such demands... "never say or do anything to damage the book"? HUH??

Everything would be so much easier if we all (writers, editors, agents) remembered we're dealing with real live human beings, no matter how impersonal this business gets. Oy. :-)

"Another wanted to include a provision that if he was unavailable for 30 days, I could sign contracts for him. I explained I could not do that, and would not do it. I think he thought I was irresponsible shirker, but it doesn't matter-he's toast."

Oh, my god. Don't just walk; run away screaming.

Watch out for a clause in a contract that states you have to remain "their client" for a year before being able to part ways (fire them). If things go wrong, you're stuck for a year with someone that isn't working for you or your work.

Good agents don't worry about such constrainments. THEY don't want to represent you if you're unhappy with them.

Many thanks for this post. When you said authors were a pain in the ass (P.I.T.A., as in something you might buy at Jack 'N The Box) I wondered if I was a PITA for signing the contracts and delivering the MSS. It now appears the bar has been raised a lot higher than that. Whew! Thank goodness.

Another one wanted to include something in the contract that the agent would never say or do anything to damage the book.

I was once asked to sign a clause somewhat like this in a book contract.

There must be some industry, somewhere, for which this is standard. (But book publishing isn't it, and I didn't sign.)

"Watch out for a clause in a contract that states you have to remain "their client" for a year before being able to part ways (fire them). If things go wrong, you're stuck for a year with someone that isn't working for you or your work."

-----------------------

I am represented by a very legitimate agency that has this clause, which most of the lit mavens advise against. Not only does it have this clause but another stating that the contract renews for two more years at the end of the first--unless either party opts out.

I did not run from this. I consulted my non-literay lawyer significant other who said--contrary to the advice of the lit types--that this will mean they can't drop you on a whim.

I now have a contract with a major imprint. It came more than a year after I signed the contract. My agent kept plugging away during times when it seemed like I might never get a deal. I wonder if he would have dropped me if there was the recommended 30-day and your out clause in our contract.

Before I signed this contract, I did ask about the one-year clause. My agent-to-be said they want their clients to be happy and would never force someone to stick around against his will. That was good enough for me. Why would they want to force an unhappy client to remain tied to them? I wonder if someone else could document cases where authors were held against there will. Sometimes you have to make decisions on the basis of trust.

In my case, it worked out.

If you are offered a contract with this clause from a respected agency with documented sales to the big publishers, you should think long and hard about "running" on the basis of this clause alone.

You know, I don't think I've ever realized before that once a book is sold via an agent, that book earns both that agent and the author royalties from now until it stops selling. It's a lifelong contract. What happens after the author or the agent dies? Heaven forbid, of course.

Neil Gamain has a link on his web page concerning ESTATE PLANNING! Go read it.

I like that. I mean, I always knew that an agent would handle submission and at a basic level vetting ideas as to their potential. But handling a measure of accounting too is just dreamy. One less thing for me to have to worry about.

Owie. Henry Holt didn't think much of agents.

John Hawkins Associates (www.jhalit.com) has an account of its precursor, the Paul Reynolds agency, which begins as follows:

In 1893 Paul Reynolds was told by his parents that he could not hang around Harvard any longer but had to get down to New York and earn a living. He did that first by helping friends such as William James from Harvard place their work for publication, then by accepting a few other writers who heard about his services. In short order he established the first literary agency in this country.

A P Watt claims to be the longest-established literary agency in the world (founded 1875), so the Brits got there first.

ROFL.

You go, Killer Yapp.

Tell Monsieur Yapp that if he ever decides to depose the French President and take over the country, my girls will be happy to serve as his bodyguards.

Poodles everywhere are relieved.


Woof! Sarko une caniche? Dans ses rêves!

That made my day !
(doesn't take much, does it!)

My mind almost read, "Snarko's Message."

Speaking of squirrels, apparently they're organized around here. We have to watch our backs when we walk the streets. They stare.

Of course he wouldn't be a Poodle! Any Poodle can tell you that they are of German origin (Pudel) and not French at all!

Oh, Ms. Snark, now i REALLY like you....
anna

Sacre bleu!

Poodles of the world, unite and take over.

Good for KY! Poodles get enough of a bad rap without this type of reference. You can't even point a finger at mine before 9 am unless you're willing to lose it.

As KY knows full well, a Hungarian isn't French.

OK, I give up.

Why is he a squirrel?

I mean, I admit he's got some horrifying ideas, like how the French should actually work for a living and Muslim women shouldn't be treated like chattel, but can he really be called a squirrel just because he's not a French poodle?

Sorry, but I care too much about KY to not tell it straight. It's the haircut that ruins it for poodles. Don't believe me? Imagine George Clooney with a mullet, an Afro, or Don King hair.

Embrace your nappiness, KY. Respect yourself.

But yanno. Professionalism and talking rationally to the people who can help solve the problem make more sense to me then running off at the mouth or blogging about your dissatisfaction.
"Please" , "thank you" and "Can we figure this out together?" go farther (I think).
I've heard the squeaky wheel gets grease but yanno sometimes they just replace the wheel...

Miss S, you are the rockinest. Thanks.

Trust me, Orion. I've tried. When a company responds to your requests for clarifcation by telling you "everybody knows" what it means, and refusing to actually answer you, there is no "talking rationally".

I wouldn't have asked the question if I thought there was a way to fix things without going public. (Not to mention I feel a responsibility to let other new authors know to be careful with this particular publisher.)

Never.
It'll come back and bite you in the ass.

Rather, assume the role as the diplomat, try to work things out or express your displeasure in a calm, professional way. You might even want a calm, articulate friend to accompany you to state your thoughts if you don't think you can hold it together.

If an agreement has not been reached and there is a contractual obligation that has not been met, you can decide whether or not you want to pursue legal action.

However, usually multiple letters written on your letterhead sent to all the players is usually enough to get things rolling. Letter are easy to send. Printing 20 is as easy as printing 1. Just make sure the tone of the letter is calm, points out the issues and your displeasure. But do not make threats of legal action unless you have the means to follow through. Lawsuits are no fun. They cost lots of money, and in the end, you might lose.

Real trash talk is only allowed when you are discussing publishers and/or agents who are actually scams. Publish America, vanity operations, fee-charging agents who never sell books, and so forth. Make totally sure that these operations are scams before complaining, though.

Not only do such entities deserve every bit of trash talking they receive, but the real publishing industry doesn't consider scam operations as part of itself, so that no legitimate publisher would get put off by you complaining loudly about a scam. They might think you were stupid for getting involved in a scam, but they won't think that you're a vindictive complainer. They'll know that your complaints were fully justified.

In fact, you are doing a service to the real publishing industry by distributing warnings about a scam.

If you're complaining about a legitimate publisher or agent, it is best to bring up your concerns directly with them and see if they can get solved at that level. If not, then some complaining is allowed, as long as it is polite and names specific, provable acts that happened to you. General sweeping statements are hard tp prove and are quite likely to make you look bad instead.

Be especially careful about complaining about slowness. The entire industry moves at a glacial speed, and it is thought that smart authors understand that.

The bigger question to me is what good you intend to do by airing your grievances. How will it change things for the better if more people know about your problems with them?

It's hard to remember one specific example about the time someone praised a publisher for something, but whenever someone trashes one you never forget it. It just doesn't look good.

I entered a business deal that collapsed and cost me lots of money - $$,$$$.$$ - that range of money.

When I speak of the man (who is dead) I merely say he committed fraud and the deal went bad. That is all I say. He signed my name to contracts, represented the company as solvent when it wasn't, then left me with the bankruptcy.

That's as emotional as I, you, me or anyone should get. State the facts and nothing else. You shouldn't say anything but the truth and leave it at that.

Most times I merely say "I had a bad business deal AND nothing else. It might be emotnionally satisfying to say more, but why? Would that change anything, I think not.

I'd rather behave like an adult than a child.

Andrew, there are times when an aspiring writer has asked me about my publishers (I'm not the original Anon. by the way), and I've desperately wanted to warn them that they're getting in with a nest of nasty wasps if they submit to a couple of small presses I've dealt with. More than one author has had the same problem I have--missing royalties, claims of massive returns that somehow outnumber the books printed, refusal to honor contracts...but audits cost a lot of money and are beyond most of our means.

So when you see a bright-eyed new writer saying, "Oh, they must be wonderful," you want to say "submit at your own peril"...because a lot of heartache has happened with at least two of these small presses (legit, but not very ethical apparently).

helLO. This is what your AGENT is for... sorting out disputes and grievances. If you don't have an agent you shouldn't have made a publishing deal. V dangerous. If you had a good publishing deal, you would have got an agent on the back of that.

use good judgement. make sure you go through at least three rounds of query/discussion of the problem (or allow at least three reasonable intervals for response time, if the publisher in question isn't answering your communications) before you take the matter outside. think like yourself, think like a publisher, and think like a lawyer before you climb out on a limb with word one.

you folks who advocate unconditional silence--consider this. the last time i aired laundry of this sort, the publisher in question turned out to owe literal millions of dollars to various parties ranging from dozens of freelancers to printers to corporate licensors, service providers, and other entities. they'd been robbing peter to pay paul (and spinning yarns to peter) as necessary--and deliberately--for some time.

shortly after their, umm...business model saw scrutiny, they filed for bankruptcy. they retained their BMWs. but months later, their freelancers wound up footing multi-hundred-dollar fedex bills...for the account the company had never paid.

being a freelancer is kind of like being a human being. someone who's policy includes abusing you is likely to extend the privilege to others.

don't leap to conclusions or actions. but don't be afraid to speak out on behalf of yourself and others, when that's appropriate.

good networking runs a lot of ways.

on an even more practical level--biting your tongue and biding your time may reduce your odds of actually getting paid, as per agreement. if you are going to have to wind up taking legal action, figure that out as soon as you can. sometimes assets run out before the lines do, if you know what i mean.

Anonymous -- please know I was referring to legitimate enterprises. When all else fails and you have no agent representing you or are dealing with a scam as others have said...well I agree -- all bets are off.

helLO (this form of greeting is one of my biggest pet peeves, as it is both rude and obnoxious, but anyway...) Writers with small presses and epublishers rarely have agents, which means that they have to fend for themselves (with the help of the wonderful Snark, of course).

helLO. This is what your AGENT is for... sorting out disputes and grievances. If you don't have an agent you shouldn't have made a publishing deal. V dangerous. If you had a good publishing deal, you would have got an agent on the back of that.

What you wrote is incorrect.

I know many authors who have contracts with publishers such as Midnight Ink, Poisoned Pen Press and Harlequin--but they don't have agents.

In many cases, agents aren't interested in dealing with these reputable publishers because the advance is small. It's not an issue of a "good deal" or "bad deal."

Anon (helLO. This is what your AGENT is for):

(I'm Anon #3) My first contracts, I had no agent--small press doesn't attract agents. And my agent I have now can't really go in and muck with things since she wasn't an agent on record when the contracts were signed. The contracts weren't bad. The publisher is the one who refused to abide by them, and agent or not, an author has to be able to afford an audit in order to check out a company's books. That runs in the thousands.

The truly annoying thing is when agencies have spelling/grammatical errors on their form rejects. It just adds insult to injury.

I think it is seductive to look for mistakes and rationalize that it is somehow important.
The thing is the sales not the website.

I see the error in "Apperances". But I have stared and stared at "Query Guidelines" and "Recent Work", and just can't find the spelling errors. Am I crazy? Am I blind? Help!

I did mention a mistake in an agency's submission form. They wrote me a lovely rejection note inviting me to resubmit. But they didn't fix the mistake. I'm starting to believe it's a trap to weed out nit-picky authors with pedantic tendencies.
I will not fall into that trap again, thanks to you, Miss Snark.

Sincerely,
Nit-picky, pedantic author with paranoiac tendencies.
;-)

I live in a fairly large city, and I've had the opportunity to read court filings submitted by the best and the brightest, not to mention the most expensive, attorneys practicing in this area. Shockingly, they are almost always riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors. These are the same attorneys who consistantly get the guy with the bloody knife in one hand and the smoking gun in the other, off scott free.

Make of that what you will.

Is the whole starting sentences with verbs thing an attempt to avoid the the first person pronoun? If so, stop it. Stop it right now.

'Cause, yanno, when you start a sentence with a verb, the subject is understood to be 'you,' and you ain't talking about me writing a novel, are you, author?

First Anon - "Recent Work" should be plural. "Query Guidelines" is fine, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Anon, there's no mistake in "Query Guidelines" or "Recent Work." The writer was just using those as examples of the area on the website where the offending "Apperances" appeared (or appered).

Before I flipped out over lack of attention to detail, I'd consider the number of errors. One is probably just a typo that made it through (although I always wonder when I see a prominent one: don't people ever look at their own sites?).

Two or three would be more of a gray area, but I'd look to see whether they're balanced out by really good things (e.g., content that makes me think this person would be great to work with).

Four or more: that's a trend, and it doesn't bode well. I'd skip down to the next entry on my list at that point.

Thanks, anonymous #1. I too stared at those "errors" and even came here to the comments section to see if someone else had the same problem. I guess we're BOTH crazy and blind.

"Work" vs. "works": good point. As long as we're tweaking, "Recently sold works" or "Recently published works" would be even better. This isn't the sort of glaring error that would be a deal-breaker for me, though.

Well, this makes me feel a bit better that there are agents who have mistakes out there too. I sent off a query to an agent last week who has a very common first name that has several common spellings. I swore I checked her name, but nooo...I misspelled it, one letter wrong. Aargh. I feel like the nitwit of the century--and I only hope she's understanding and forgiving!

My take? If an agency is so careless with their OWN website (not a personal weblog as in the case here, but a professional website), then just think of how your work will be treated. If they can't market themselves properly, how can you expect them to market your work with care? Go somewhere else.

And for what it's worth, I've written copy for several corporate websites including text so simple as a sidebar. I bled over every pixel.

Um, this is really anal. Especially the example of "Recent Work". Get over it.

Things like this can be very difficult to overlook. I'm currently looking at a local university's New Media Major (basically, building websites and multimedia stuff) and I was shocked and dismayed when I discovered that the only way to get more information about the program is to download a PDF. An ugly PDF at that. The fact that no one in the program at all could throw together a decent website about the major scares the crap out of me but I'm still thinking about applying.

Even P&E contains errors, aside from those in quotes which belong to the contributors. However, P&E also has several hundred pages so it's inevitable that a few will get through even when the programmer is a good speller.

You have to remember that the agency does not design or maintain their website...someone else does. And, even if they submitted the wording to the designer, and it was all 100% perfect, there can still be mistakes when that wording is pasted into the final site.

The mistake was really very minor...a missing 'e' in 'appearances.' I could see how someone might not even notice it with a cursory glance. OR, and I've had this happen in my own experience, they did notice, informed their designer or host or whatever, and it never got changed.

I would be much more concerned if the agency misspelled their own names or names of their authors. Or had a multitude of very bad spelling all over the place.

Okay, here's what I think Miss Snark would say in a polite frame of mind - like, say, immediately after seeing Oceans 13:

Write a great query with a fantastic hook that captures the flavor and essence of your book, and send it to the proper agents that might want to represent it.

Determine those agents by elimination - anyone who represents neither SciFi, Fantasy, nor Romance is out. Anyone *reputable* who represents all three of those is way in. Interpolate accordingly.

Query, rinse, repeat.

In the meantime, write something else, then repeat with that.

Queryest abnormalest agentsest. *grinest*

thou shouldest goest back into the humorous chaos from whencest thy camest.

seriously, is this real? I thinkest Miss Snark is pulling our leg.

I suppose there is serious advice that could be given here, but I don't think I'm the best person to doest that.

ps, cluest doesn't work because clue is a noun. just fyi.

Hoo boy, do I know the answer to this one, as my novel is a comedic sci-fi thriller romance wrapped in a mystery. Heh, that was fun to say.

You're right, your book is all those things. Lucky you! Whichever genre best fits the agent you're about to query, use that one in the query letter. Ta dah! Be sensible: if they don't handle fantasy, don't try to pretend there's no fantasy in your book. The elves give it away every time. :0)

PS Miss Snark, I got my first request for a full this week! Thank you for all your snarky advice.

Have you not been paying attention to this blog and Miss Snark’s excellent advice? I believe this has been addressed.

If you think your novel is fabulous and you have checked and double checked it for typos and grammar, written an incredible query letter and synopsis, and researched agents who represent novels in the range of your genres, send the queries. If it’s good, you’ll hear from them. If not you and your friends can continue to enjoy your writing in the privacy of your own homes.

Victoria Strauss just wrote an excellent piece called “Learning the Ropes” on the Writers Beware blog. Go there and do your research!
http://www.accrispin.blogspot.com/

Yeah, what twill said.

I'm writing a YA novel that takes place on a space station orbiting Earth. Some might call it science fiction, but really, I don't think qualifies. The most important things are that you (we) write well, represent our work well in queries, and send our queries to the apporpriate people. Oh yeah, and that we include SASEs so that we can keep our noses above the nitwittery waters.

Wow, an opportunity to play Miss Snark for an evening. Don't own any stilettos, but at least I'm not barefoot. No poodle with a tam either. Will have to make do with a cat in a hat. Bacardi instead of gin. No photo of George Clooney. Maybe a TV Guide with Hugh Laurie on the cover will do.

From the writer's letter, it sounds as though he INTENDED to write a cross genre novel, not that he is so unfocussed the book just wanders around like Moses in the desert.

I'm a little uneasy about that "others seem to enjoy reading my work" comment. That doesn't sound like a hard critique by other writers. It sounds more like "my mother and my best friend said it was great." If that's the case, the writer needs to find a critique group he trusts.

It also sounds as though the writer has not yet tried submitting a manuscript to agents or editors. As Miss Snark says, good writing trumps all. If I'd already put the book through the mill with other writers, I'd be inclined to query widely and see what kind of professional feedback the manuscript gets. Include four or five pages of the book with each query letter so the agent actually sees a sample of your writing and doesn't just turn it down on the basis of all the genres.

If the feedback is a stack of form rejections, I'd go back and read the second paragraph of this comment again.

If, however, the agents offer friendly advice, saying, "I like this, but have NO IDEA where I would market it," there are other alternatives.

The writer might do well to seek an e-publisher, or this might be one of the few times when the writer should consider self-publishing.

I mention e-publishers because they are often more flexible than traditional print publishers about what they will accept.

In addition, I'm convinced there are three times when self-publishing makes sense:
(1) When the writer just wants a book for family and friends and has no commercial aspirations; (2) When the writer is strongly connected to a niche market that is guaranteed to want the book; and (3) When the writer is trying to sell a manuscript that New York just doesn't know what to do with.

As examples of #3, I'm thinking of two women who were writing erotic romances back in the late '90s when no publisher would touch them because they didn't know what to do with such graphic language.

Tina Engler founded Ellora's Cave in order to sell her erotic novels. M.J. Rose, who had extensive marketing experience self-published "Lip Service" on the Internet and set about marketing it herself. The book was selected as a Literary Guild/Doubleday choice, the first e-book and the first self-published book to receive such treatment.

However, I would not hare off to self-publish without first getting some solid feedback from writers I trusted and/or agents and e-publishers. There are enough bad self-published books on the market already.

Good luck whatever you do.

So, having reread my earlier and now-deleted comment, I seem to have come off as meaner than I intended. Sorry. It's finals week and I haven't slept much and "cluest" kinda sent me over the edge. "Clue" is a noun. Don't do that.

All these other lovely Snarklings have given excellent, non-mean advice, so I'm just going to leave them to it and try to get this paper finished by tomorrow at 8am. Good luck with your humorous chaos.

I too write science fiction humour. However, my books were pitched as SF, sold as SF, and then printed and marketed as SF. Humour never came into it, except in the accompanying blurbs.

It's hard enough hitting one target. If you set up a whole row of them you're just making life difficult for yourself.

Tell them it's SF. The query letter, synopsis and first few pages should take care of the rest.

(There's another catch with mentioning humour: if you say it's a screamingly funny book and your prospective agent doesn't even crack a smile, you lose.)

Write well. Query widely.

If the romance is central, call it paranormal romance. If not, call it science fiction. And then let the agent decide which publisher is most likely to buy it, and the publisher decide what genre to market it as.

Science fiction. All the rest of it can be conveyed in the hook.

If none of the normal agents and editors will read your genre/sub-genre tome, then send it to the abnormal agents and editors. There are more of them, anyway.

What Simon said.
The humour and the romance are a plus. Let them discover it for themselves.

oh.my.

1. Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction.

2. Science fantasy (not at all the same thing as fantasy) is a subgenre of science fiction.

3. Romantic subplots are common in science fiction.

4. Humor, if not precisely common, is not unusual in science fiction.

In other words, what you write is...science fiction. Query agents who represent...science fiction.

In your query, that's all the genre description needed. Title is a NN,000 word science fiction novel. If you absolutely must, you can use the words "humor" and "space opera" later in the body of your query, but ideally, those qualities should be apparent without explicitly saying so.

I write and sell novels that have been variously tagged with the words fantasy, science fiction, humor, romance, and cyberpunk. My publisher Ace (Penguin) calls them fantasy, which is what I tend to call them as well, but they do partake of the others and it has even been suggested that I started my own sub-genre of cyber-fantasy. Pick the dominant thread, or whatever you're most comfortable calling your work and send to agents who represent that kind of work. If the book is good it will find a home.

I second all of the excellent advice above, especially the suggestion to find a good critique group before you submit.

To expand on what melodyo said: Don't mention all of those genres in the same query letter. Pick one genre (depending on agent) and let your hook convey the rest through your description of character, plot, and setting.

Write your hook in the same voice as the novel, if you can. IMHO, this is especially important for humour. (That doesn't mean you should write your hook in first person. Just make sure that the agent won't expect a dead-serious novel from your tone.)

Look through the Snarkives for the various Crapometers. They'll teach you a lot about what to do and what not to do in a query letter.

Read widely in your genre to find out who is currently writing stuff like yours, what they are writing, and who their agents and publishers are.

Best of luck!

Imagine you're walking into a bookstore. You're just a customer, looking for something to read. Which direction would you walk if you were looking for a humor-sci-fantasy-romance? If you can imagine a bookstore customer doing that, then market it as such.

If you can't imagine a bookstore customer doing that, there's probably a good reason. (genre) fans go to the (genre) section looking for (genre) books. People won't buy a book if the story doesn't give them a good reason to.

Maybe it would be best to take a few years away from the genre-mashup and develop your career. Prove that you can write a damn good fantasy novel. Or prove that you can write a damn good romance novel. Then, once bookstore customers have grown accustomed to your name, then they'll be interested in seeing what you can do when you mix it up.

I've asked a similar question, and I've always been told to first query agents that handle all the genres (if such exist) and then to query agents that handle some of the genres.

However, rewrite each particular query to make it sound as if your multi-genre book is mostly of the genre(s) that that particular agent handles.

The worst they can do is reject you. When you've got a multi-genre book, there's only so much you can do to try to adhere to agent genre guidlines. After you've made an honest attempt to partially adhere, just stop obsessing. Let the rejection process do its work.

[word verification for the day is yeqch]

No idea what Miss Snark would say. To me this looks like a case of "Show don't tell."

Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett are the only sci-fi writers to have reached a mainstream audience of millions, because they were very very very very funny. So any agent who found the next Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett in the slush pile would be very very very very happy. But it would NEVER do to say "I'm the next Douglas Adams" or "I'm the next Terry Pratchett" because anyone can say that, and most of the people who do are very very very very unfunny.

If you are very very very very funny, agents whose preferred genres bear a family resemblance to one of those you mention will be very very very happy to hear from you. So I'd pick a handful and write a very very very very funny query letter AND synopsis and fire 'em off. If the agent reads and laughs OUT LOUD, this will not go unnoticed. If the agent rushes out of his/her office to read out favorite passages to colleagues, who all roar with laughter, this will not go unnoticed.

This does not work if the submission is unfunny.

I am not a number! yeqch! qffmdht!

Find some authors whose style/content is similar to yours.
Find out who their agents are.
Ta da!

And if you cannot find anyone that comes close to yours, you are in trouble.

Other author wannabes, don't make it so hard on yourselves. Science Fiction can be sold, but is not red hot right now. Sci fi/romance/space opera/comedy is really not something editors are begging for.

I would first like to say that everyone else has given damn good advice, and probably know more than I do.

I'm not sure what "getting lost in my own stories" means, but if it means that you're enthusiastic about your stuff, great. Keep that up.

I think there are a couple of things you could do about your problem:

1- pick the element that you think is the most prominent. Then join a writers group and have people you don't know tell them what they think it is (without you telling them what you think it is).

2- query agents who represent one or two of the generes listed and change your pitch to match that genere.

I think that many books, regardless of the genere, have elements of humor and romance. So, I would say sci-fi's your best bet, unless the romance drives the plot. And remember that any agent you might work with could change the genere to fit a pitch they are making.

And, no matter what you do, remember that twisting your words to sound Shakespearian (sp?) is never cute/funny. If I do say so myself, it sounds rather nitwitish.

Visit Bookseller Chick's blog for Sunday to read Marta Acosta's essay on genre-bending.

http://booksellerchick.blogspot.com

Douglas Adams

I mean, he did get published, somehow -- with the same title and how many different stories (the title being of course, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe).