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I share your pain. The thrill from current T.V. is gone…Maybe I’ll just rewatch the Wire from the beginning and sigh nostalgically….

Oh look, Wallace…I liked Wallace… and Dee and Bodie… Omar, my friend…

Emily

Sing it. Never have I cared so much about anything on television. A friend sent me these to cheer me up, and they’re pretty funny. Also, I’ve been reading books by all the show’s writers, most recently Lush Life by Richard Price.

Eeek: Omar!!!

Yeah, I’m definitely going to go back and watch all five seasons back to back. Cannot wait.

Sara Ryan: Yuppers. I also found these suggestions of what to read now that The Wire is gone—waaaahh!!—most excellent. I’m currently on a Denise Mina run (she’s BRILLIANT) and will then be reading Clockers and Sacred Games. I’m looking forward to also checking out Pelecanos and Lehane. And I can claim it’s all research because the novel I’m writing seems to want to be a crime novel.

Is it possible that I’m the only person on earth who has never seen a single episode of The Wire?

Oh, well. I guess I’ll have to catch this show on DVD.

Sadly, Coe, lots and lots of people have never seen it. Was on HBO and didn’t rate very well. Watching it on DVD is the best way. It’s too agonising to watch it one episode a week.

Pelecanos and Lehanes are awesome. You probably won’t be disappointed by their work.

I haven’t seen it either. Mostly because I don’t get the HBO channel.

But I saw an episode of Ace of Cakes where they made a cake for a party The Wire had. That’s the closest I’ve been to watching it.

I hate it when they cut off my favorite shows!! That’s why I am kind of giving up on anything but soap operas. Those never end.

Eek got me a bumper sticker for my birthday that says “What Would Omar Do?” The most memorable scene in T.V. history has got to be Omar going out in his silk bathrobe to buy Honey Nut Cheerios for his boyfriend.

Props to Prop Joe, too. R.I.P.

Network, not netword.

See, my feeling is that now that The Wire is over, it’s finally safe to watch it on DVD. I’m tired of falling in love with shows and having them cancelled, especially shows with long, complex story arcs. Thus, I have resolved not to watch a series unless it has concluded, not because the stupid netword decided to cancel, but because the story is complete.

There are rumors that David Simon may be talked into a 6th season of The Wire that focuses on the influx of Latinos into the drug market in Baltimore. Keep your fingers crossed.

The other series he’s working on now deals with the music scene in New Orleans. That sounds promising, too. He tends to use the same actors over and over, so we’ll most likely see some of our old favorites in different roles. I can see Omar with a sax.

I did not like in the heights.

at all.

curious to hear what you think.

we will discuss!

The only musical I’ve ever seen was Annie. And I helped out backstage so I am very jaded when it comes to Annie.

Cecil: I’ll let you know when I see it. Won’t be till May, but.

I haven’t commented on your blog before, but I have been reading for a while and I just wanted to say that I am seeing In the Heights tomorrow night. I’ll let you know what I think!

PS I loved Magic or Madness! I need to read the next two in the series, but I don’t think my library has it and I am broke

So, Justine, I shouldn’t regale you with stories of my childhood in amateur musical theatre? *grin*

Anything Goes is one of my favourite old-school musicals, highly recommended if you can find a good production (and handwave the Chinese subplot as a product of its time).

But I loooove the, ahem, non-traditional musicals as well. For example, there’s a jazz version of The Mikado that has pretty much spoiled me for any Gilbert & Sullivan not set in a nightclub in the 1920s. And I loved Jerry Springer: The Opera in London, magnificently wrong as it was. I haven’t seen the movie, but the iOTA version of Hedwig in Sydney was mind-blowingly awesome.

Do not, under any circumstances, see Li’l Abner.

I would love to see wicked or spring awakening. Those would be my top suggestions.

A Chorus Line! It’s a wonderful, classic show, and I loved the current Broadway revival, which I saw last spring.

I like the music from Wicked, but I was less impressed with it on stage (hated the ending). Conversely, I liked Spamalot much more on stage than I do on disc.

And definitely any Cole Porter! I’d adore to see Kiss Me Kate, Anything Goes, or Fifty Million Frenchmen (which is lesser known but has some great songs).

I hate that you hate Andrew Lloyd Webber. I’ve been hating Andrew Lloyd Webber for most of my life and was hoping to get into a nasty argument with someone over it. I really really hate him. Oh and Sondheim too. Yuck. Everybody raves about Spring Awakening, but I didn’t like it. The music was just mediocre indie-folk-rock and the story was even lamer than a musical should be. I think you’re going to have to wait for my musical about sentient software programs to come out.

i very much enjoyed the producers.

and i’m dying to see spamalot!

Hereandnow: There was an extremely short run version of Jerry Springer on here in NYC with Harvey Keitel as Springer. Apparently it was brilliant. I only heard about it after the run was finished. Grrr.

LBS: It’s just as well I don’t have children. I would be horrible. “No, I can’t come see you in your school play. You’re all hideous amateurs. Leave mummy alone so she can finish her martini.”

Lauren: Well, I hate that you hate Andrew Lloyd Webber more than you hate that I hate Andrew Lloyd Webber. So nyer!

i feel so dreadful and sad! i like several of the shows not to be named in this here blog, so i will not mention them. i am not a big fan of sondhiem either, but some of that stuff i can deal with. i even like the musical version of “aladin” even though i am not supposed to because it is unfair in places to people of my ethnicity. (but only if jafar is properly evil. if jafar is improperly evil, it has no zing.)

i also love high school and college productions! i love a show where the lead is not the hunky hero but a skinny kid with glasses who can SING! and i like the no money part of it. i saw a “big musical” (not going to name it because i am not like that) where the lead was sexy and handsome and sang and made is so freaking obvious that he was bored and jaded. he basically walked through the part, only really shining on his solo pieces. i got my $$$ back btw. he left the production shortly thereafter. when you get into the school productions, you have people who want to be there and are there for the heck of it because it is fun.

i do like professional shows too, though and i am dying to see Spamalot when it tours again. I loved the Sweeney Todd movie, but if you can see it as the original on stage, you really should!

A Chorus Line, definitely. So energizing and wonderful. I’m also a fan of a lot of the others that have been mentioned - classic R&H, etc. Personally I also love Oliver! and Annie. The soundtrack of The Music Man is in my top 5 of musicals, but I’m not in love with the book. I’d rather just listen to the record.

I agree with your comment on Andrew L W. (and it makes me think of the Crowded House song “Chocolate Cake”). But I loved Les Miz! It’s been years since I saw it, but I remember much sobbing on my part. Maybe I was PMSing.

p.s. LOVE Godspell! But then, I grew up in a seventies hippie Christian household, so we were all about it. Still, when I listen to the CD now (both the original cast recording and the movie version), I think the songs are, on the whole, pretty amazing.

Ysa: I totally take your point that amateur productions can be good at the pro ones can be dreadful. Indeed, I stopped going to theatre all together for many years on account of having seen some really dreadful professional productions. Nothing is worse than bad theatre. Actors who just work through their parts are evil and wrong.

On the whole, though, I’ve seen more good pro theatre than good amateur.

Sara Z: Godspell is the only movie I have ever walked out of. It was So. Very. Bad.

the godspell play is 8 million times better than the movie. the movie just sucks.

im still rooting for equus tho.

Emily: I suspected as much. The South Pacific movie is also horrible.

Equus makes me nervous.

Why is Bernstein being neglected. Just to mention 3 ground breaking musicals. There is the early celebration of NYC: On the Town, which did become a fab movie. West Side Story just shifted the whole ground of musicals (I don’t think Hair could have been done without its precedent). And my favourite, Candide (which we all saw at Belvior), a much underrated spoof.

I did mention Hair which gave us Marcia Hines.

Did you not see this sentence above where I wrote, “And I’m convinced that getting to see good productions of Anything Goes and West Side Story would make my life complete.”?

Didn’t mention On the Town precisely because the movie is so good. I know I saw Candide but I don’t remember it at all.

Ok, I agree with many of the recs already made, but I’ll make a few others:

Ok, less cerebral or…impressive, than Chicago, Wicked or Rent, and not nearly the classic of Chorus Line, but I am huge fan of The Lion King and Mama Mia.

Mama Mia is just good Abba-liscious fun. Kind of like the “beach read” of musicals.

The Lion King has fabulous music and incredible Julie Taymor costumes and direction.

If you were only going to see one or two, I’d definitely go to Rent and then Chorus Line or Chicago. But if you really are going to see more, especially if you do the half-price tickets booth thing, consider giving Mama Mia and Lion King a chance…

Emily

Ah, yes! WSS: Melbourne 1960; Telaviv 1961.

If it’s ever revived, see Big River, which is Huckleberry Finn set to music. The songs — by the late country music star Roger Miller — aren’t your typical Broadway caterwauling. They comprise a kind of tour through the many flavors of early American folk music.

I’m also with the ALW haytaz, with one exception. See the next professional production of Evita you come across. Awesome stuff. The character “Che” is a great charismatic trickster figure. Even the song “Don’t Cry for Me blah blah,” which I kinda detest, is really affecting in context. The Madonna movie is way, way, waaaay weak in comparison.

Side note: Only ever walked out of two movies — Eraserhead and Urban Cowboy. And both involved irritating music! Hmmm.

RENT is awsomes if you can see it you should. Wicked and Spamalot are also really good.

P.S. Rock on for the Hedwig love!!

If you find a production of West Side Story going on…well, definitely go and see it, but also let me know where it is going on so I can kill one of the orchestra’s violinists and steal his/her seat. My own orchestra just finished working on this, and it has the single best score of any musical I’ve been exposed to. A Leonard Bernstein score makes just about anything worth seeing.

As per previous recommendations, Wicked is wonderfully fantastic and at the top of my list; Spamalot is hysterically funny; and a lot of the “classics” like Chicago, Chorus Line, Rent, and the Cole Porter works are deservingly popular.

P.S. As I do not live in NY, I have no idea if this is going on anywhere, but…if Fiddler on the Roof is being put on anywhere, see it. It’s delightful and funny and moving and the movie version is my favorite movie of all time.

P.P.S. I have never met a musician who likes Webber. I believe there is a good reason for that.

To whoever mentioned Fiddler on the Roof - definitely. I think Tevye has got to be one of the greatest characters ever written. The whole thing is one of the most touchingly human musicals I’ve seen.

I love Rent, Hairspray, and Avenue Q.

most people here have already mentioned the good ones like avenue q and hairspray (which is TONS better than the recent movie), but i do know that “cry-baby,” based on the 1990 john waters film, is coming to broadway later this month. i’ve heard a couple of songs and they’re pretty fun and quirky.
*as a side note: the songs were written by david javerbaum, who was a writer on the daily show with jon stewart (so that should be exciting to see, or hear)

Although about 98789 other people have said this, you absolutely have to see Wicked. I didn’t like the Wizard of Oz until I read the book, and I like the musical a lot better than the book.
I finally saw it last weekend, we took a trip to Chicago just for that reason and it was AMAZING! As in, almost-in-tears Amazing. I’d already been addicted to the OBC soundtrack, and the Chicago singers were just as good! I was surprised.

The DVD of Working absolutely sucked, but my high school drama club (including me) is performing it. And it is way better than the movie because, well, we make it more interesting. If you are in the “chorus”, like me, you’re not just an extra, but you have a backstory, even if the audience doesn’t realize it. I may be a restaurant patron, but the backstory is that I am with a group of my sorority friends in that scene.

We have about six guys and they have to be more than one male lead while we have 20-something girls. It’s basically the atmosphere that makes the musical. Working is a bunch of monologues and solos, but everyone can have fun.

(I hope that made sense)

can i recommend anything by soundheim?
if you love musicals, or don’t care for them - he has turned the whole genre inside out 7 times over. makes lovers out of haters & lovers even more mad for musical theatre! he is a serious antidote for phantom & les miz.
especially enjoyable for writers - the man elevates musicals to a whole other sphere! sunday in the park is crazy genious. into the woods is clever & fun!

i am also lover of classics (like south pacific & gigi) but another new interesting pushing-the-envelope musical that was up a few years ago was caroline or change. written by the tony kushner who wrote angels in america.

seriously? you hate Phantom of the Opera?? …that makes me sad. i loved it. oh well i guess. different people like different things. i’ve also seen Mamma Mia. i love that one too. and am hoping to go see Rent once it comes to my little city in May. i’ve kinda become obsessed with brodway musicals latly. i’ve seen 2 so far this year.

How can one man have so much talent?

Got to be a winner in there - go Nick

I love the David Stratton one. A lovely portrait.

Wow. These are awesome, Justine. I love both these portraits. Thank you for sharing. I’ll definitely be following Nick’s work.

I love the Shaun Tan one. Mostly because of the little creature in the guy’s arms.

I remember when all he did was fan art! Yay, Nick!

Go Nick GO!
and, I love Shaun Tan’s creatures.
After reading ‘the Arrival’ I really really wanted one…
It pained me that they only came in paper form.
.

[…] Thanks to Justine Larbalestier who posted about this on her blog. […]

I like the second and last ones the best.

Sweet pictures!!

Love it! the one on the right (Yasmine? can’t quite read the name) is so bad ass, I envy her.

You are, I have no doubt, aware of the ongoing zombie theme on Megatokyo.

Innocent Bystander #1: Zombie Hunter Librarians? I just don’t get it…

Informed Bystander #1: Makes perfect sense to me. Libraries are where the brains hang out. Librarians are our first line of defense from the Zombie Apocalypse!

Could this be the next Buffy? Sexy zombie-slayer high school librarian with chic glasses in a battle to save the world…

Indeed, someone needs to write the novel/manga to go with it.

Someone? (wink wink, nudge nudge)

I could never, ever, ever get bored of looking at that.

woo hoo!

Well, now i know what i want to do when i grow up.

That is made of awesome! (Random High is also cool. More, please.)

Madison Hartup is a mad good artist as well as writer- her fanfic rocks… Thanks Justine for the link!

Hollis: I can’t wait to read Madison’s Zombie Hunter Librarian manga!

There’s much worse. Hoe about that song?

Hahah!!

Uh-uh, did you see what Daniel Day-Lewis’s wife was wearing? GIANT FAUX JEWEL DAISY! WITH BOWS!

anon: the song from Enchanted was HIDEOUS. But the other song was just fine.

Lili-chan: Hahah?

Gwenda: Noes! I have not seen that dress. Want to see it! Tilda Swinton is FUNNY. But her dress was a mistake. What have people got against two matched sleeves? Love her hair, but.

All I’ve seen of the Oscars tonight was that song “Falling Slowly” from Once. My mom called me down to watch it since I love it so much. (:

I love that song too and it’s not even the best song from Once (which I also loved). If it doesn’t win it will be OUTRAGEOUS.

Ooh, I’m so happy it won! My mom ran up here to tell me! Yay!
I have yet to see the movie, but we’re getting it soon. My mom bought the soundtrack, though, and we listen to it all the time. I also really like all the music from Juno. (I bought that CD. It was like a soundtrack-buying extravaganza.) So I Juno gets an award, since it’s up for four.

Yay!! A good song won and oscar. Must be the first time EVER!

Just be warned that Once is deeply boring for about the first twenty minutes. Seriously, I almost switched off. But then it takes off.

no oscars for me this year. alas, in germany it doesn’t start until 2 am!! but since i saw a grand total of (around) three new movies in 2007 i guess it doesn’t matter much. (that’s what having a baby will do to you…)

if you subtract the gigantic ruffle, it’s not so bad.

i slept through the first half hour and then copped out on the last half of the oscars. oh well. i’ve seen about 0.5 movies this year.

There are worse dresses out there, I’m sure; I’m still not a fan of this one. The color’s good for her, and I like the idea of the dress in theory, but it needs to lose about half of the stuff going on for me to like it in actuality.

I think it’s a step up from last year:
http://fabsugar.com/150969

What was with all the one-shoulder dresses? At least half the dresses had had one sleeve savagely destroyed. Why?

Laura: Indeed. That was bad.

i’m a bit sad that i’m not even excited it was oscar night yesterday. i have put only appr. 2 minutes into an (unsuccessful) search for a dresses-overview. and this on a day that sucked pretty badly and when i wanted to get away from it very much.

gone is the movie-love of yesteryear.

oh ok, i’m going to try to find the dresses and johnny depp for a bit more then.

oh dear. ann hathaway’s dress was indeed a bit of a mistake. and the one gwenda mentioned too (you’re not a christmas present, darling).

loved cate blanchett, vanessa paradis and nicole kidman, though.

not watching the oscars, but I did look up anne hathaway’s dress.
ugh!

I didn’t mind Anne’s dress as much as many others (great colour on her; plus, she’s lovely). I’m with Justine (what the beep was up with all that one-shoulderitis?), but even more than that, how many birds were plucked bald for all the ridiculous feathered ruffs? Give me one shoulder over a feathered ruff any day.

the one-shoulder dress thing is just awful. but not quite as awful as last year’s craze for rocks-on-frocks. (although cate blanchett was suffering from a bit of that this year).

i didn’t really notice A. H.’s dress, she has such a pretty face i spent most of the time she was on being envious. i agree, all the enchanted songs wer horrible and ellen page should hav won best actress.

I’m so with you on the one-shoulder dresses. It’s as if all the designers got together and said, “what can we do to make really attractive people look hideous this year?” Although I almost liked Tilda Swinton’s one-shoulder number because it was so incredibly weird.

all of this is pure genius on toast. I was only confused by the part in which you said snakes on a plane was bad. I assume this is a joke.

also, you did not mention that zombies make everything good and should be in all books. aside from that, perfection. this post should be read aloud, to me, every morning at sunrise. can we hook that up?

Thank you!

I took a break from not writing my novel out of sheer frustration because i knew how much rewriting it would need - and this was the first thing that I saw on my friends list.

it’s been a very inspiring pep-talk - and i’m sure it will come in even more useful when i actually finish the first draft bit…

“Don’t worry: Despair is an integral part of the rewriting process.” i keep forgetting, and then having to rediscover this. I think I’ll have it tattooed to my wrist - with proper attribution, of course. happy new year!

Got here from Elizabeth Bear’s LJ site and just have to say, wow. Totally something I’ll be bookmarking and taking back out when I get to revisions on my YA. Thanks for sharing!!

Hi, another reader via Bear’s blog. I loved this post, thanks for taking the time to share. I have a novel that’s going to need some serious rewriting - this really helps cuz I had no idea how to even *start*.

Cheers!

This is an excellent post, dearie — bravo. The only thing I’d add is something I spend a lot of time doing, which is refining how things happen (as opposed to just what happens) to make sure it’s in the most interesting way. This mostly falls under structure, thought most of the time it doesn’t involve rearranging or moving events, so much as reimagining them better. But it’s a bit more than line editing because often it requires completely ditching and rewriting sections from scratch.

oooh, brilliant! thank you thank you for this brilliantly motivating & helpful essay.

i think i am going to needlepoint the bit about despair being an integral part of the experience, so i can hang it over my desk and keep it in mind and not fall into the trap of thinking it is my own deep lameness that brings the despair about.

onwards to the structural rethinking!

found that neither obvious nor boring, and especially not un-helpful. (Additional compliments here have been deleted upon revision — too redundant.)

another visitor thanks to Elizabeth bear…just had to say thanks. I have just deep-sixed 28000 words of my MG since draft 5 died in the middle. I’m starting again, since the structural problems are so deep-seated that it’s way better to start fresh with my old draft as reference and inspiration. your post is soooo timely. I must bookmark you, and will look for your novels for sure! thanks!

[…] How to rewrite (via Bear) 10:48 am comment […]

Voice inside my head #1: “Maybe you should finish the first draft of your novel before you start thinking about rewriting.”

Voice inside my head #2: “You think? She’s not even halfway done with the smallest novel ever!”

Voice inside my head #1: “Yeah, but it’s pretty good. We don’t want negative six weeks of progress from writing too fast, do we?”

Voice of me: “Will you just shut up? I’m trying to figure out a plot here.”

And of course “uni***n” is not on the list of Words To Look Up And Annihilate From The MS because it would never be there in the first place.

I’ve rewritten lots of MSs and it’s never been easy. There are frequently tears, and avowals that I will never do this again. But you make me want to drag something out and rewrite it, which is a bad thing because I’m on deadline to deliver a first draft. (Although like you, my first drafts make my editors weep with relief because they’re so clean… which leaves me wondering what kind of messes other authors turn in.)

Your praise of Scrivener also has me thinking ever-more-seriously about an iMac. Rewrites on the iMac! Maybe they will be more fun!

i finished my first novel just over a month ago. i’m very aware of the need to fix structural before line-editing, and the need to have other eyes tell me what the heck is wrong with my story first. thus i’ve done some initial editing (cut first scene, reworked a chapter, fixed some stupid glaring mistakes) then put it forth for feedback. but despite being in an online writing community and having an offline writing group, no one seems to have the time to read my novel. should i move ahead to line-edits when i myself cannot see the flaws in structure (which I’m sure are hiding there somewhere)? or should i find a third writing group, or continue waiting?

Thank you. That was very informative and helpful. Being dyslexic, I am hyper-focused (often necessarily so) on the sentence level rewrites. I rarely take the time to rework the structure. I usually just say it is broken and move on to the next project. Since one of my New Year’s resolutions is to submit something for publication, somewhere. I think I am going to have to shake the dust of one of my broken stories and try a structural rewrite.

I came from Elizabeth Bear’s site, too, and will definitely be coming back! I never blog in any useful sort of manner, so I’m always envious of those of you who do. Plus, I obviously need you.
This parting line is what really got me:
‘It ain’t easy, but it beats shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.’
Yeah…I suppose it does, but I just turned in revisions to my editor last night (hours before my deadline), and by about 10PM I may have been ready to trade for a ticket on an ill-fated ocean voyage.
Still, I didn’t read it until this morning, so that line did put my last week in the fiery pits of hell into perspective. Thanks.

Thanks everyone! I’m dead pleased it seems useful.

Mary: but despite being in an online writing community and having an offline writing group, no one seems to have the time to read my novel. should i move ahead to line-edits when i myself cannot see the flaws in structure (which I’m sure are hiding there somewhere)? or should i find a third writing group, or continue waiting?

That’s tricky and always a problem. Critiquing someone’s ms. is a huge commitment. I talk about some of what’s involved here. That’s why writers’ groups can be helpful: people are committed to reading each other’s work. It can be hard though, for example, if you’re the only novelist in a group of short story writers.

Basically, I’d say yes to all your questions. I’d keep looking for a group where people were actually going to read your work. (Assuming, of course, that you’re pulling your weight and critiquing theirs.) I’d keep contributing to the groups I’m in hoping they’d finally reciprocate. I’d also contine working on my ms. on my own.

But if you really feel like you’re getting no where with it then it might be time to let it rest and start a new novel. You can always return to it later.

Owldaughter: But you make me want to drag something out and rewrite it, which is a bad thing because I’m on deadline to deliver a first draft.

Oh noes! I am enabling procrastination!

fawesome!!!

Do I have to finish something first?

[…] Rewriting 3 01 2008 There is a most excellent piece on rewriting at Justine Larbelestier’s blog. […]

[…] finally, Justine Larbelestier tells you how to rewrite. It’s a long post, but there are some very simplistic, practical […]

Wow — thanks, awesome post, well-thought out and tons to ponder. this is definitely worth re-reading many times over.

Oh, and what maureen said about the zombies. When in doubt, undead.

arghh me too! my characters are always rolling their eyes, shaking their heads, opening and closing their mouths or brushing lint from their heavily bedazzled pantsuits … but how beautiful is it when dialogue just speaks for itself?
I’ve never thought of keeping a list of overused words - so simple but so useful - thanks justine and happy new year to you and scott!

Now can you tell me how to write the first draft?!?

i’ve been critiquing a lot during winter break, and i was trying to figure out how to put into words some of the stuff that was bugging me, so this post is awesome! furthermore, i think you just summed up my entire theories of rhetoric and composition class, and then some (minus the aristotelian theories–i never did really figure those out :P). and i do all that stuff with my own writing too. writing is hard. *sigh* but i’m finding that critting other people’s stuff has been infinitely helpful in working on my own stories, especially when i see all the things they’re doing right, b/c then i figure out what i can do to make my own story right.

Wow, Justine, a really great post. I see a lot of this stuff going on as I read manuscripts with markings by divers hands (including mine). I’m right now in the middle of the proofs of a 900-page meganovel by one of my favorite writers, who has done major rewriting. It’s fascinating to see how he’s added or taken out details, compressed whole paragraphs to a single sentence, moved around chunks of text in time, etc.

One thing I’ve observed time and time again in every sort of fiction: It works best if there are not too many character names to remember. All the fiction that has worked well for me has severely limited the number of characters’ names. This doesn’t necessarily mean the number of characters; just those with names. Nor are the ones with names necessarily the most important ones. A family saga told in first person might include “my mother,” “my brother,” etc., while the butler, a relatively minor player, might actually be given a name. The main character might have long conversations with a security guard, say, and reveal a lot of his deeper thoughts to such a seemingly neutral observer, without learning the guy’s name. A reader is going to remember “the security guard with the big mustache” much better than “Joe Morgan” when he shows up again 150 pages later.

In a long saga, like The Lord of the Rings or One Hundred Years of Solitude, you’re going to have to have a bunch of names, but keeping the names the reader has to remember to a minimum always seems to strengthen a book. How many spear carriers in your story have names when they don’t really need to be named?

exactly what i needed to hear right now. this was very helpful advice. i’m a beginning rewriter, and i’ve been struggling a lot with a project i’m working on. i find constructive criticism very helpful, and i’d secretly love a ten-page-single-spaced letter of commentary on my writing.

unfortunately, my only critique partner (an excellent editor who gives me terrific feedback) is also an ex-boyfriend. this means that i send him something to look over, he gives me good advice, i revise before going to bed, and then have horribly vivid dreams in which “advice from ex about love scene” and “imaging love scene in action” become one.

clearly, i need to ask more people to look at my writing.

[…] I talked about revision in my last post, and the next Elizabeth Bear’s blog directed me to a post by Justine Larbalestier on how to rewrite. Nice […]

[…] even if it’s for the good of your work. So Justine Larbalestier has written a fantastic piece about how to rewrite. She gives some great, practical examples, including how even Snakes on a Plane could have been a […]

Write something of pure genius. Set it down . . . . come back much later (several cooling days, at least) and hellooooo discover you’ve written complete crap. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Good stuff though. Writers groups are funny: are they good enough to critique you? I mean, really. It’s fine if you like budweiser AND sam adams. You just need to know there are differences . . .

Are they just being mean? Are they tough enough to give good honest criticism (if kumbayah breaks out, ain’t enough learnin’ going on) and are you tough enough to take the good criticism and discard the crap criticism?

And there are few perfect bits of writing: just those good enough that you overlook the flaws while reading and that afterward you feel they aren’t outweighed by the good stuff.

[…] I came across this wonderful essay by author Justine Larbalestier about rewriting fiction.  I think I may print it out for my […]

NoteTab (freeware) has a text analysis function that provides statistics on word frequency. There’s probably other software that does it too.

i said that bass-ackward: it’s that the good bits aren’t overshadowed by any perceived flaws . . .

I don’t think I could ever be as nitpicky about words, like the nod/eyes/shrug example.

How much of that would your editor comment on and how much of that is just personal preference?

First time visitor, referred throuhg John Scalzi’s Whatever blog.

Great post, lots of good stuff. I do some of what you noted already, but you’ve given a lot of food for thought here.

A couple of comments:
“Time saved by writing the first draft fast: negative six weeks.”
Ah, but. I often blitz through sections of first drafts, if the story is flowing well and I’m willing my fingers to keep up with my imagination. You’re right, it takes me longer to fix, but that’s often the most inspired writing.

And:
“I saw a tree. I touched the tree. I could tell from touching it that it was a good tree. I felt the tree speaking to me but I could not tell what it was saying. I was hurt by the tree when it exploded because I touched it. I was angry at the tree.”

If only Hemingway had a chance to read you’re advice about this. It would have saved me a lot of tedium in high school English class.

[…] Larbalestier says all sorts of really intelligent things about rewriting on her blog: There are two basic kinds of rewriting: structural and sentence level. […]

Just yesterday I ran across the concept of using exclusion dictionaries in Word. Here you are with a great list to prime the pump.

Thanks for all the rest too–the despair part is especially motivating.

[…] of Interest (November 27th 2007 through January 3rd 2008) How to rewriteA detailed post on rewriting, and how to do it.Tags: Justine Larbalestier, Writing, howto, […]

Thank you for this - I’m new to writing fiction and have needed sage advice. Seems I’ve found lots of it here

I had a very good writing teacher in high school who managed to get some very important concepts across even though he was “merely” teaching creative writing to a bunch of students who were probably going to forget it all anyway. the first thing he taught us was that if you do not know the definition of a word— the exact definition— you should look it up. He then taught us exercises such as stripping out all of the adverbs in your writing and seeing if you can still get the emotion across, or writing down the first word of every sentence to see if you have a pattern going. (Since this was high school, “The” turned up for most of them.)

those sorts of exercises have stood me well in the years since. Strangely enough, they mostly helped me with my nonfiction college essays, particularly the philosophy papers. But of course they are best applied to fiction— try a few tricks such as those or the ones listed in the main post.

Which plugin are you using for the footnotes? Spiffy!

[…] How to Rewrite How to Write a Novel First Novel Advances Too Young to Publish Being Dumped […]

thank you - I have some ideas on how to rewrite (and have acted on said ideas) but I found some really useful points I’ll have to keep in mind in what you wrote. Such as the list of words to look out for one - one of my characters irritates me by always being puzzled or puzzling things out…

One question on rewriting, about _when_ you rewrite. I’ve read things which say you shouldn’t mix writing and rewriting. Write it all first, then rewrite it. I can understand that ‘creative’ and ‘analytical’ hats can be conflicting and that sometimes one has to just write crap first before improving upon it (which is difficult if you’re thinking critically), but I generally find I bounce back and forth between rewriting previous sections and writing more. Is this such a terrible thing to do?

@soni: I believe the plugin is called wp-footnotes

btw, most people (including me) don’t protect the directory listing on their blogs, so when curious about someone’s plugins, just try adding
/wp-content/plugins/
to the blog home URL.

Anyway, great post, Justin, much appreciated!

another arrival (belatedly) from elizabeth bear’s blog, and also jay lake’s since i was reminded of this by a thread there…

your point about working too hard on the good sentences only to find they don’t belong in the story is very definitely something i need to take note of. i have a terrible tendency to do this, and end up keeping all sorts of earlier drafts because i think they have some lovely but inapplicable bits in them. and i never actually go through and keep or make use of any of these “pearls”. how much better to only craft them when i really, really need to!

i heart you justine!

this is pure gold and i’m going to circulate the link to everybody i know involved in writing/publishing, link it via our website… etc.

thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

you are welcome.

and so are siamese cats. just so you know.

Herenya: I’d say that it doesn’t matter if you do all of your rewriting at the end or during the process of writing as long as the rewriting doesn’t kill your forward momentum. I wrote a lot in high school (and have saved most of it as a hedge against hubris— it’s pretty mediocre stuff.) The short stories came out pretty well but the longer work never got anywhere because I’d barely get past the second chapter before rethinking the first, so they’d stop before I got anywhere with them.

In college I spent several years doing improv, and the training actually helped with my momentum. “The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on.” Every scene went from beginning to end without a pause and you often discovered things in the course of a scene that you never would have if you had the opportunity to go back and fix things. A first draft is much like improv; most scenes need to go forward and be completed. Only a few games feature “repeats” of the action where things can be improved.

Minor rewrites don’t kill your momentum. Major rewrites are sometimes necessary— if you’ve painted yourself into a corner, but going back can get you out, it’s good. And if you can rewrite and still complete, don’t sweat it.

Most of us, though, will have to save rewriting for the end lest we run out of steam before the project is complete.

[…] Justine Larbalestier » How to rewrite Very few people learn to rewrite alone. There are two basic kinds of rewriting: structural and sentence level. Most beginner writers get caught up in sentence level changes. The result is lots of shifting around of deck chairs while the Titanic sinks. (tags: writing rewriting editing reference) […]

@Stoyan

Thanks! Great hack!

Makes me wonder if I should be protecting those directories, though…

*creeping paranoia*

When I read your list of overused words you like to cut out, it reminded me somehow of a JG Ballard story called ‘the index’* - and here’s a story of a robot coming to life. perhaps.

eyes glance…good.
had head - just.
look! mouth! (open, close).
nod.
raise eyebrow (raise, lift)
really seem!
shrug, sigh… slowly smile. so still…
stood suddenly!
then… very…
walk!!

*(”we have only the index, the book itself no longer exists. From this remnant, arranged according only to arbitrariness of the alphabet, one can still discern the outlines of the story of a man who, like his biography, has been expunged from history.” - http://elab.eserver.org/hfl0093.html )

[…] No Comments Australian fantasy novelist Justine Larbalestier has a funny and extremely practical essay on her blog about rewriting. She explains the difference between structural and sentence-level […]

This is wonderful. It makes me want to go out and buy an editor to sit at my right hand, and a reader to sit on my left as I draft and redraft until I’m blue in the face and can no longer see the wood for the trees.
I am on a writers forum, but the critiques are so banal it makes me wonder what I’m doing there. I try to be honest on other people’s work so why can’t they show me the respect to be honest on mine? Sure, it’s great to know the good bits, but I struggle with strucure and no-one bothers with that. They would much rather tell me, eg, I’ve missed the apostrophe from I’m, or the comma before an -ing word.
Thank you for some great tips DIY tips. I will now get back to work

[…] craft, editing, favorite blogs, the internet   Justine Larbalestier has a great article on how to rewrite. Go read […]

Awesome information. I like how you mention how rewriting frequently involves large changes, like reordering entire chapters or excising huge chunks of text. This is the most important type of rewriting in terms of how it ultimately affects the readers’ perceptions, but too many inexperienced writers skip straight over it and jump directly to sentence-level rewriting (I will admit I succumb to this temptation as well).

[…] been up, but we’ve just found it: an excellent entry on Justine Larbalestier’s blog on re-writing. She gives some fantastic advice, great examples, and tips to help you through that tricky first […]

oh noes! violence against paperclips! ’tis a terrible thing. here, have a kitty to bring down the stress: http://tinyurl.com/2lr5e8

um….may i tentatively suggest that, post-deadline, you test-run OpenOffice? I haven’t used it much, but i hear it’s awesome and that it’s compatible with the evil MicWord.

hahahahahahaha! at the video. that is hilarious. perhaps you could change the paper clip to the cat? it won’t really improve the situation, but i find that a cat asking me if i’m writing a letter is far less aggravating than a moronic little paperclip, for some reason….

clippy = evil. Jim Hines turned one of my covers into an anti-clippy LOL (http://jimhines.livejournal.com/327414.html) that you might appreciate at the moment. He did at great personal cost too–turning clippy back on and then not being able to get rid of the damn thing without manually editing his registry file.

If I don’t yell “I hate (explicative) microsoft” at least once a week, I don’t think I’m working hard enough.

Maybe you need more RAM? Or more waking hours in the day - computer troubles are legendary for only happening in times of stress.

Or - you know how they say if you just think about exercising for 20 minutes, it’s as good as actually exercising, maybe if you just think about lying in the sunshine for 20 minutes (there has to be some music you can use to evoke sunny thoughts) you will actually get some vitamin d.

I send my novel off last night, and I can now vouch for the fact that if you just keep turning up and hacking at the thing, you eventually get to the end.

Write like the cyclone (but not tracy)!

I would hate to be an author. I much prefer reading, appreciating, adoring and loving the final product. but I gotta agree that microsoft really does go Korazy when you are stressed. Does it sense the impending doom?!

I am so sorry Word is being hateful and horrible to you. If it makes you feel better, I HATE it too, and frequently am forced to swear at in in all languages that I speak and a few that I have made up just for such occasions. The Sweetheart tells me “that is why Mac is better” and then I am forced to yell back “as soon as you convince my entire workplace to switch to Mac i would be happy to be all Macified!” Yes, I know that there is conversion software out there, but if getting windows to behave is a constant struggle for dominance, why would i complicate things further?

I saw on Libba Bray’s blog that you are also having nasty flu aside from homicidal thoughts about that stupid paperclip! I hope you feel better soon!

I am buying a damn mac as soon as possible.

MS is just … *screams*

Have you looked at Open Office? (ducks, as the breeze from a mistimed punch parts his hair)

oh, I am glad to see someone who rants at Word the way I do. I write in Wordperfect and only resort to the evil Word when I must attach a document for the rest of the writing world. And Mr. Clippy? A sadist. Commiserations.

i have a hard copy of this anger-management lolcat stuck next to my work computer for similar instances of word rage.

I’d be interested in a blog entry of the tools you use and how. Cory Doctorow writes in some form of XML, which must be horrid yet Word hates large docs so do you have one doc per chapter or something?

Open Office is a good Word-alike but no idea what it like for large docs either. Scrivener looks good but complicated and just how good is the export to Word feature?

As a non-author/writer I find it fascinating to read how different authors approach their craft and what tools they use (and how).

i love macs, but they aren’t that much better with word-prossesing. i still haved to use word on it, and it crashes only when something is due tomorrow. i know that feeling.

what happened to my commet??!?!?!?!?

all i said was that you could switch off Mr. clippy *evil laugh*

Try q10 from http://www.baraa.com/q10/

Word sucks. very much so, especially for large docs. I hope you’re backing up very very often because, well. Word sucks.

I use wordperfect for my personal writing and it handles large docs effortlessly. Haven’t had a crash since moving to their x3 version. But I use Word at work, my girlfriend and her hubby use word Mac for their professional writing and it ain’t any prettier on that side of the fence.

Might I suggest, if you feel like you need to stick with word, you look into the latest version? It is hell on learning curve (so don’t even think about it now … is that a deadline I see before me?) because they’ve changed just about every thing about it, but the file format is much better, smaller, and more manageable for the computer (less choking on big files) and once you get used to it the new layout is pretty good. I do not know, however, if it is any better with long docs. Cause, you know. Word sucks.

NO SPOILERS!!!! You can’t see the caps, but they’re there. After I got Hp7, I went wireless for the whole weekend. It was scary that a) I could actually do it and b) I had this idea that if I would log on, that I would be attacked by not normal popups…but Harry Potter spoiler popups!! It was horrible! Good thing I got through okay. And…even if people ask me for spoilers, I hate spoiling things for people. I think my own hatred of having things spoiled prevents me from being a spoiler myself. I have a friend who doesn’t mind having things spoiled for him. He’s the kind of person who actually reads last pages/chapters before he reads the rest of the book. It’s weird.

I have a sliding scale of spoiler tolerance. I don’t want spoilers if the book or movie is one I particularly care about — particularly for books. I will usually even avoid reading detailed reviews for books I plan to read, because I want the experience of reading to be mine, not colored by the perceptions of others or by knowing what will happen next.

Movies and television are more fluid for me. One movie I wish I hadn’t been spoiled for was Serenity — one of my friends let a specific fact slip, and the experience of watching would have been much more visceral if I hadn’t known.

On the flip side, I don’t care if I’m spoiled for Doctor Who these days. I watch it, but the recent seasons haven’t done as much for me as that first new season did. So now I want to know before I watch whether it’s going to be worth it!

I don’t think I have a general attitude to spoilers. I recently read a long review Col Toibin of Ian McEwan’s short book, *On Chesil Beach*. The book may have been as much as a tenth of the book’s length and managed to reveal every plot point and most of the other interesting things. Yet when I read the book a month or so later, mysteriously enough, it hadn’t been spoiled for me in the slightest. It may be, of course, that it’s the kind of books that can be read many times, and I was getting my second-reading pleasures without having had the first-reading ones. I’ll never know, of course.

i hate spoilers. when i was watching farscape, i looked it up on netflix to see if i could order one of the seasons, and the tiny little blurb had a major effing spoiler in it. i almost died.

i only read jacket copy (or whatever it’s called) if i’ve never heard about the book before or i’m just browsing. i sequestered myself while reading harry potter to ensure i didn’t hear anything. i avoid reviews too, not just b/c of spoilers but b/c i too don’t want my own opinion of the book influenced by what the reviewer thought.

it’s part of my enjoyment of the book/movie/show, being surprised by what happens.

Do you think (especially in the case of novels) that there’s kind of a ‘lost art’ of reviewing? I seem to remember reviews were supposed to tell you about the work, and either entice you to read it or tell you it wasn’t worth your time - but without revealing the plot. I never read them anymore as they always seem to be ‘then this happens, then this happens…’ - and then (sadly for the writer) I don’t need to buy the book.

I’m like you, too. I can’t stand anything that resembles a spoiler. i’ve mastered the art of skimming reviews without really reading them, so that I can get a hint of an idea if it might be a book that I’ll want to read, without learning too much about it. with Harry Potter, I didn’t tell anyone if I even liked it or not (I mean, you know, until everyone i knew had read it anyway). I want to get lost in the story, and be wowed and surprised and immersed, and spoilers kill that. I also love predicting what I think will happen, and i can’t do that if I’ve had hints.

The less I know about a work, especially a movie, the better. All I really want to know is the general sort of film (drama, comedy, adventure, horror) I’m seeing. This is difficult with today’s trailers, especially with comedies, which tend to give away half the best lines.

With books I’m a little more tolerant, though I certainly don’t want to know whodunit or what the secret of the alien race is.

Spoilers, ugh. And my worst encounter was my own stupid fault — right before I ripped open my season 1 veronica mars dvd, I decided I might as well watch a season 3 episode, just to make sure the show was worth it. ten minutes into the episode, there it was, a single line that revealed the season 1 murderer. And don’t even get me started on how hard it is to hide from Battlestar Galactica spoilers, especially when prominent actresses, ahem, start popping up on sucky new heavily promoted shows. It’s a hard world out there for those of us behind the times…

i was visiting my brother once and one of his housemates asked if she could borrow a certain movie from him. i said, “oh, i’ve been wanting to see that! maybe we (meaning my brother and i) could watch it after you.”

when she brought the movie back (just a few hours later!!) she said, “oh, the end, when he died, i was just so sad.”

i was agog as two gogs. (sorry, georgia nicolson reference.) just a few hours before she heard me say i hadn’t seen the movie!! i sort of did a goldfish face and then sputtered, “why did you tell me that??!”

she couldn’t understand why i was so upset.

to sum it up:

i despise spoilers.

I hate spoilers only when I’ve worked really hard to avoid them. For example, I didn’t know who died in HP6 up until about a week before HP7 came out (which is when I was reading HP6). Because I’d gone so so so long without knowing, I didn’t want it spoiled. But if I’d known before, then I wouldn’t have cared because then the reading would have been more about the journey.

“I want my first experience of any narrative—be it book, manga, graphic novel, TV show, movie, play, whatever, to be untrammelled by knowing stuff about it.”

You hit it spot on. I like that sense of discovery when entering a story. I know not every story is supposed to be full of twists and/or surprises, but when the experience is new and fresh - well, that’s just a whole ‘nother level of enjoyment, for me.

There are some times that I don’t mind spoilers, usually if I don’t care that much about the book/movie, but at the same time I *love* when I get a new book by a trusted author, and can thus just read it without having to know *anything* about it.
Movies, alas, are much harder to do that with, thanks to trailers and teasers all over the place. Bad as it may have been otherwise, the action movie Mr. and Mrs. Smith, for example, had a wonderfully set up ‘twist’ to the plot that was completely explained by the trailers, and when I watched it, I kept thinking how cool it would have been to watch that movie with no idea what was going to happen next.

It’s worse when someone gives you ‘fake’ spoilers and I have friends cruel enough to do it. One time I had a friend say, ‘omg, it is all about the pink elephant, it is awesome!’ and there was a pink elephant and I spent the entire movie trying to anticipate how it came into the final resolution - turned out the pink elephant only had a cameo role…

i generally don’t mind spoilers too bad, as long as they’re sort of general. i will read reviews and jacket flaps, but not for sequels like HP7 or ect. i read spoilers on heroeswiki beforehand, but they tend to be more fun hints, such as *this character* meets up with *this character* or *so and so* goes on a quest. that i find more fun food for speculation.

one spoiler that i think was horrible was the Lost season three finale. i didn’t hear about the internet leakage until after i saw it, but i felt horrible for people who did. that was the sort of thing where one tiny line revealed the whole surprise ending and would make watching it no fun at all.

like when i wanted to read city of ember, i looked it up on the internet library catalouge, and the little blurb review completely ruined the mystery premise, which really made reading it no fun at all.

when a sequel i don’t want being spoiled comes out, i avoid the computer and delete all my bookmarks, like i did for extras (which was excellent! and also the sort of confusion-twisting that a small spoiler could have ruined) when i knew i wouldn’t get a copy for a few days.

i went on a media strike the whole time i read hp7. sure it only took me two days to read it but still…
i lothe spoilers. i think its unfair to everyone to spoil something for them. its much better to find out for yourself. although cedar’s points are very good.

I hate spoilers when the book or movie is very plot-driven and dependent on surprises. I would not have wanted to hear spoilers for “the sixth sense” or “the others,” which owed a lot to the surprise twist endings. literary and character-driven fiction doesn’t seem as spoiler-sensitive. i know anna karenina dies, for example, but still plan on reading it someday, for the reasons cedarlibrarian says–it’s the journey, the “how,” not the “what.” either way, if a story is any good, I can become so caught up in it that I forget the spoiler and the events still surprise me.

On the pro-spoiler side, i love talking about books and movies and hate having to censor my conversation indefinitely. i’m nice about it, though, if someone specifically warns me by saying “oh i still plan on reading that,” I won’t say anything. But in general my new rule of thumb is, if it’s been out on DVD or in paperback for at least a year, it’s fair game for discussion.

I find in general spoilers for movies to be far less offensive to me than ones for books — thankfully so, as I know precious few literary people irl. Movies (in general) are effortless, so to have a grandeur moment stolen near the end hardly invalidates the experience since you were merely sitting like a lug ‘being’ entertained the whole time. I had on the radio (of all places) the big twist in the film “what lies beneath” the very afternoon it opened! I don’t think I would’ve walked away with any more of an experience had it been a total shocker to me.

Books, conversely, are a labor of love and devotion. Delicately crafted paragraphs are woven in merely to carry you soundly through the plot so that the revelation _is_ the very experience itself, not a fleeting moment of film. At Disneyland three-or-so years ago a look-at-me-im-trying-to-stand-out teen wore the infamous “Dumbledore dies on page xyz” t-shirt in the line for the haunted mansion. wow, the drama that ensued was borderline insanity! You’d think it said something like “kids, your parents will eat you tonight whilst you sleep.”

Spoilers are just plain rude. If you are going to put them in, at least place them behind a cut with a big ole warning. Quite frankly they cost writers money. I have not bought books when they have been spoiled for me and I am sure I am not alone. If I really like a series, would I keep reading it? Yeah, I would be ticked off but I would keep reading. A spoiler wouldn’t have stopped me from finishing Harry Potter; same is true of your Magic series. But if it was a new, or new to me, writer, I wouldn’t be so inclined. Everything has its time and place, and I sure some people want and look for spoilers, just be respectful of those who don’t be giving fair warning.

I don’t like having spoilers around because while it is all about the journey, there is the first journey of discovery, the second journey of re-discovery, the third, fourth, and fifth journeys where you travel along a familiar path, and so on til the path becomes an old friend.

The journey fundamentally alters if I’m given a road map first. anticipation sharpens literary senses and I look for clues I would otherwise never have noticed. I’m not as lulled by the word pictures the author is creating because I know they’re building towards something. I don’t get to experience it all brand new.

Now I can re-read books, and often do, but I really really do love that first journey, when it was brand new and unfolding before me.

I still wonder how my first viewing of Citizen Kane would have differed if I hadn’t learned (from a Peanuts cartoon!) the identity of Rosebud before I had a chance to see the movie.

janet: I never had a chance to have Citizen Kane spoiled. My dad dragged me to see it when I was four. and right now I wish I had capital letters to explain why you don’t take a four year old to see citizen kane. i have a real hate-on for that movie and it’s all because of too early exposure.

haha why did you watch that?
what gave the urge to whatch that horribal movie did you know that all the songs sound the same the sound the same in the second one too not that i watched the second one i herd it in the background from another room

i also saw those things in a funny store befor haha

and i watch the first one and i regret it

Hey…I didn’t think high school musical was THAT bad. The second one is cheesier than the first…but they’re still not that bad.

Libba is so cool on so many levels.

It’s REALLY REALLY REALLY unfair that you’ve gotten to read TSFT!! I wanna read it so bad.

Your unicorns fill me with ENVY! So does all the fun I just know you guys had.

ah, the good vs. evil uni***ns. brought to you by the same wonderful people who created the avenging uni***n and the avenging narwhal. and possibly the jesus and librarian action figures. hehehehehehehe.

i have not watched high school musical 1 or 2. no plans to do so, either. the soundtrack snippets on itunes kinda turned me off, to be honest. those kids sound way too happy.

can we have a “the sweet far thing” club???

Meanwhile, i am so jealous of your unicorns…!

oh, and i forgot–go phoenix!! so glad they won game 4. it was kinda hard to cheer for them since they swept the stars, but i still like ‘em better than detroit. can’t say that there’s any actual basis for this decision, but eh, they’re in the western conference at least.

High school musical is the worst movie-turned-marketing-scheme ever!!! and that’s all it is anymore. we had to watch it at school last year. it was supposed to be a reward, but i found it to be punishment. it *must* be a really rich school. Why did you watch it though? Why would anyone subject themselves to such torture?
As for the u*******, those are fabulous! where did you find them?

[…] <via Justine Larbalestier> […]

I love those unicorns - what an awesome present! They’re like my little pony, but *even more evil*. Well played, Libba Bray.

I bought High School Musical on a whim - it was super-cheap in JB hi-fi one day plus a lot of my friends love it - and I wish I hadn’t, because it now just sits on my shelf mocking me. Although the basketball number is quite good. I dunno. You’re right about the lack of conflict, and even the music doesn’t do much for me. It’s treble-y and empty, like fairy floss. I’m not averse to fluffy entertainment, but I was raised on cole porter and sondheim and giant slabs of the broadway canon, so hsm doesn’t sound right to me. Just my two cents.

I saw the first High School Musical and nearly vomited. (This is coming from someone who is a huge fan of musicals and loves them all, no matter how bad.) I only watched it because a bunch of my friends were talking about how amazing it was, so I wanted to see what the hype was all about. WOW, was that ever a waste of my time!

I was stunned when I heard they made a sequel. I haven’t seen it yet, and I never plan to.

BUT I AM SO JEALOUS OF YOUR UNICORNS!!! AHHH!!! (For your information, the latter was all in caps.)

Oh, hsm! It’s so silly. The second one has a little more conflict than the first, but it’s worse. If you can imagine. I liked the first one. Kinda. I’m a huge disney fan (and I’m from orlando, florida! represent!), so it’s almost as if it’s required of me to love their stuff unconditionally. but i don’t love it unconditionally.

some of it’s sweet. i like a few of the characters. i like the message. unlike grease where the woman is expected to sacrifice for the man, high school musical suggests that both people in a relationship should step out of their comfort zone for each other. gabriella was trying to change her image to begin with (for herself) and troy was trying to find his way into independence from his father. which i like.

i also like the message about status quo (the song which discusses it is completely debunked by the end of the movie, except perhaps for sharpay and her brother). Okay, I’ve spent too long analyzing.

I’m sure all the kids watch for zac and vanessa, but i love musicals. i love disney. and i love my sister (who forced me to watch it after much resistance). i ended up liking it for what it was worth. which isn’t too much, but it was enough to assure me that disney can send the right message every once in a while. they just need to tone down the fake and step up the real. that would be my real criticism of kids tv shows… lack of realism. lots of sitcoms and cartoons. lots of fluff. i love that ya lit is deeper than that. it makes me really happy.

okay, i’m done now. thanks for listening!

bex

the thing that really bothered me is that high school musical wasn’t about, well, you know. A high school musical. They should have called it auditions for a high school musical.

also, i’d never seen auditions like that in my life — with all those costumes and microphones and planned choreography that had nothing to do with the actual musical?

I, too, adore musicals. Even bad ones. That’s why the lack of music and dance numbers was so disappointing to me. I did like the basketball number though.

Diana: Exactly. I thought it was going to be like a Judy Garland/Mickey Rooney movie from the thirties and it would wind up with them putting on the show. But there was no show!

There was enough plot for a half hour episode of a TV show—not a whole movie.

Our chorus teacher forced us to watch it and then perform ‘Breaking Free’ in one of our concerts. Let’s just say that during the concert people were laughing uncontrollably, some of the chorus and some of the audience and me.

I didn’t like it because the message was so forced and that it was utterly predictable, but y’know, that’s just me.

Hmmm… I want a Destructicorn.

I thought it was going to be like a Judy Garland/Mickey Rooney movie from the thirties and it would wind up with them putting on the show. But there was no show!

i had this exact same reaction - ‘WTF, it’s over? where’s the other half of the movie?!’

Awww, love you, Justine. xo

But what up with the asterisks in unicorn? does something happen if we type the whole word? is it like The Ring and i’m going to get a creepy phone call and die if i put the cor in the middle of unicorn? Just wondering.

I’m still shell-shocked from Hsm. It was like that scene from a clockwork orange where malcolm mcdowell’s eyes are forcibly propped open and he is made to watch the horror.

Ha! Keep those unicorns in their box. Someday they’ll be worth a *fortune*!

Haha, a year ago a co-worker got me the “Freedom vs. Commie” battling unicorn set as a joke.

OMG! I sooo need to get one for my friend. She loves uni***ns. It’s kinda creepy actually…her room almost looks like that one scene from *Dodgeball*

I’m just starting writing a new series. Each book is self-contained but there is a part of the story that continues. In my plans it’s a 7 book series. But in my contract it’s 4 books right now. I’m already obsessing about what to do if the series isn’t popular enough to go all the way to 7. Do I somehow cram it all into the 4th.

Oh wait, maybe I better finish writing the 1st one.

Thanks for passing along the article.

I’ve always been of the cynical (and completely uninformed by any actual knowledge) opinion that publishers often purposefully obscure series information–especially in mysteries.

The thought process would be that the fans of the series are capable of finding the next volume, but that casual browsers might be turned off by series packaging–either because they don’t want to start a series, or because the book isn’t the first one, or whatever. In other words, you trade gained sales from “fooled” casual browsers for lost sales from non-diehard fans.

In some cases this could be excused–when the books are actually a series of books that can stand alone rather than a serial spread over several volumes.

Me, I’m just glad that the Internets mean that I can easily find the publication order of any series, and can order the first book of any series with just a click. I’m old enough to remember when the “store only has a later volume, I’m not sure which one, and I can never find volume 1″ thing was a real problem… you know, back in the day.

Arthur: It’s scary, isn’t it? It makes me nervous about writing a series even though I really want to. Good luck!

Chris: That was the argument given for not labelling the hardcover of Magic or Madness as the first of a trilogy. I still don’t buy it. Fortunately, all the other editions—soft and hard—are labelled as being part of a trilogy.

I think that for a lot of readers seeing that a book is part of a series gives them much joy. I get to read many of these? Yay!

Seeing Dianne Day’s comment in the linked article makes me sad. Not because she’s wrong–she isn’t–but because I really liked her stuff and have wondered if she got onto the midlist death spiral.

Sigh.

I love this comment - “Actually, let’s leave Dan Brown out of this for the moment; the jury’s still out on where his career is going.”

I always think of Dan Brown’s career as similar to Harper Lee’s.

>>So, what do you do for work?
–I wrote a book.
>>one book?
–it was a pretty popular book…

Chris: Yeah, there were some very depressing comments in that thread . . .

Patrick: Except that Brown had a bunch of books before Da Vinci Code.

Harper and Margaret Mitchell are the quintessential one-book wonders.

I know. 3 books that were all better than da vinci code, but that is beside point.

More along the lines of his ‘career’, well it doesn’t need to go anywhere at this point. DVC is his career.

Anything he, or Rowling for that matter, does is pretty much guaranteed to be less popular than the previous book(s). That won’t change their career though.

I’m a horrible book buyer, I tend to only go for the books that are series because they have the arc plot, but then I have my favorite really fawesome authors like MJ and John Green who may not have series but really good publishers because they get better publicity. I surf the internet alot and then ask my local librarians to order those books for me. I think that it’s really sad that those authors like Brown and Rowling peak so early and that know matter how wonderful their following series or novel they just can’t get enough publicity because although it is a wonderful book, it’s not what their readers wanted.
Justine: If love fantasy I think you’ll love Heroes because it leaves you hanging like a really fool fantasy series, like Skin Hunger. And if you haven’t you should totally watch Pan’s Labyrinth!

Yes, poor rowling. I say that all the time.

Why? she’s made over a billion. She need not ever lift a finger in her life again. More like poor Brown.

With mysteries, there’s a pretty good argument for not worrying too much about series order: any given book in the series focuses on one mystery which is solved at the end of the book. You may get minor spoilers having to do with changes in the main characters’ life (e.g. VI Warshawski has a new boyfriend or is on the outs with her friend Lottie because of something that happened in a previous book), but these are usually not a big deal. There are exceptions: you really have to read Strong Poison, Have His Carcase, and Gaudy Night in order — but if you don’t, it won’t interfere with your enjoyment of the mystery aspect of the book. And it doesn’t matter one whit whether you read Gaudy Night or The Nine Taylors first. (In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, these are all Dorothy Sayers mysteries.)

The thing is, most non-mystery series fiction doesn’t follow this model; instead, they’re either one long story told in installments (e.g. Justine’s trilogy or the Midnighters books), or they’re more of a serial format, with multiple ongoing storylines that come in and out of focus (most recent series television, and a lot of 19th century fiction that was originally published in serial form in the newspapers, e.g. Trollope).

These are all completely different types of fiction, and fans relate to them in rather different ways — among other things, whether they want/need to read the books in order. But publishers may not be clear on the nuances of marketing these different types of series fiction, though you’d think they would understand the difference, that being, you know, their job.

I hope I got all my tags right. Justine, you should have a “preview comment” function.

Whew, got all the tags right!

I wrote one long story told in installments (e.g. Justine’s trilogy or the Midnighters books), and it occurs to me belatedly that a good analogy for this would be a three-act play. It just doesn’t work to see the last act first. Unless it’s that Pinter play that goes backward in time.

My SF series suffered from what Huang talks about. When my third book was coming out, the second book (which made the Nebula preliminary ballot a week later) went into publishing limbo — O/S Indefinately (”out of stock”). Months later it was remaindered.

The series didn’t do well after that. Go figure.

It wasn’t the only SF series to suffer a second book out-of-print while the author was still writing fate, either. Wen Spenser’s second book in her Ukiah series was remaindered in the middle of her series.

All I have to say is: WTF?

Vis a vis labeling: I think in YA the labels actually work in a series’ favor; teens on the whole are generally less snobby about reading “genre” and much more into the collectibility aspect of making their way through all of the books in a series.
(She says with her ex-editor’s cap on)…

I disagree about the whole less snobby about genres thing. At least when I apply it to myself. Certain series, yes, I totally want to collect, but romance series that focus solely on the romance aspect irk me. And even though I know it’s snobby of me, I always think less of people who love those dimestore paperback novels, even if I know the author is actually a pretty good writer. I am a horrible person. But if it’s got zombies and vampires I’m totally there, so I definitely shouldn’t judge.

ahahahaha, i used to have an obsession with making everything i wrote into a trilogy or series. it wasn’t enough that i am utterly incapable of writing a short story (every time i try, without fail, at least one person says that it sounds like part of a longer piece. agh!). nope, i had to make things into multi-book behemoths. but then i got serious about revising and the whole series thing went flying out the window.

when reading, i tend to be wary of series. not sure why. i love love love trilogies, but anything longer and i start to get a bit skeptical. with the exception of rachel caine. i think this might be some stupid subconscious idea that series books are for kids, b/c the only series books i know anything about are things like boxcar children, animorphs, and the babysitters club. especially with boxcar, the books got incredibly weird and way different from the original books, plus the kids never aged, which was weird. i found out later that starting with #20 (and there are about 100 in the series, i think. for all i know, they might still be churning out new ones), all the boxcar books were ghostwritten, and they got “updated” for the current generation. so in book one, people were still driving horse-drawn carts, and in book #8483949, it’s all cars and computers and cell phones. which made even my ten-year-old brain go “wtf?”

TV Series with the Best Arcs: Firefly, Farscape, and Alias. Just so you know, but you probably do already. Sadly, every last one of these is cancelled. Ugh.

TV Series with the Most Frustrating and Confusing Story Arcs: Lost, hands down. Sheez. I still don’t know why I keep watching it. Must be addictive. Or they’re sending subliminal messages. Yes, that must be it.

Personally, I think that the producers or writers sell their souls to get such good ratings or fans or whatever. Why else would something as random as *Lost* be so popular?

seriously. like, where are the disappearing polar bears? and what the hell is that intelligent murderous black smoke? and what’s with the ghost dude? nobody knows. i suspect the show’s writers don’t know either. i didn’t even watch the first season, so i really have no idea what’s going on, yet i’ve watched it for two years. my friends and i have a running joke about the title. it doesn’t describe the show, it describes the show’s viewers.

I have it on Mely’s word that Emma 5 is out in NY! I am jealous, as that usually means that it will take another month to get into brick stores here. Amazon it is for me!

I should probably add something intelligent about series, except all I can think of is “me too!”

Except fat adult fantasy series. I hate them on principle. But I want to love them, really!

Yeah, I’m about to go on a little Emma 5 hunting expedition . . .

There are some really good big fat adult fantasy series. I loved the first Robin Hobb one. Also the Living Ships one.

On a personal level, I’m utterly unmoved by the never-ending series; as a bookseller I say bring ‘em on! They’re the definitely the meat and potatoes of the genre bookselling trade (plus the soup, salad, and occasionally the dessert course).

For example, there are 48 books on our new release shelf (mass market section) at the moment. 36 of them are from a series. That’s 75%. Some are interconnected books which can be read individually (like Terry Pratchett), but most are installations in an ongoing adventure (think Robert Jordan).

Neither of those two examples actually have a new book at the moment, and neither will be going out of print any time soon. But if you’re a Jordan-type writer and the first in your series goes out of print, the rest of your series is dead in the water. If you’re a Pratchett-type writer, you may survive.

so cute!

Alice has a book called “Baby Beluga,” based on a song by Raffi. Here name for the book is “Baby Doodah” which, of course, we find amazingly cute.

that reminds me of this one time we went on a boat trip somewhere inland, and passed a whole pod of whales swimming in sync not far from us. they weren’t close enough for us to see them in much detail, which would have been nice, but in retrospect i think it was even cooler to watch them together from far off.

oh to be on a train with you guys!

Thank you for posting about it. I’ve been thinking of you all this past day!

xo

whales and klingons! a delightful start to the day!

I used to use trains all the time, travelling betwixt N. Oregon and SoCal. Now the only time I use trains is when I go to visit the pater’s ‘rents. But back when I was 6, I was enthralled with how fast the trees flew by, or beautiful the mountains were just as the sun rose or set. Now, all I see is naked people in their pools. Not good for my brain.

Justine, it sounds like you had a good time, is MJ gonna post? And thank you for the Aya clarification, and for spelling my name correctly this time.

I love whales! They’re so gorgeous! When we were in Mexico, we saw some dolphins; but the whales were up north, so I was a little sad.

Now, I’m gonna go read Patrick’s blog.

klingons!! bloodwine!! ahahahahahhaha. ha.

“Someone’s at the door?” American Gothic? How did you miss that? I never watched it, yet I knew all about it because the TV commercials wouldn’t stop. Evah.

I usually say “The Wire”, but you know about that already.

Filling out my top three is Cracker (the British one, obv.) and The Sandbaggers.

I never really got into American Gothic… found it a bit too religious-y… and TV shows where the central character is a kid tend to annoy me after a while:-)

I always find it hard to recommend shows (particularly) series to other people, since tastes and expectations vary so much — as does the quality of stories within a series, often.

Still, it seems cowardly not to play at all ,so two I haven’t seen mentioned on this blog before: Dark Angel — mixed quality sometimes and terminates abruptly when it was canned, but entertaining — and Spooks (BBC), particularly the earlier seasons.

Oh boy, I loved that show. They didn’t air the last four episodes in the US until after it was cancelled and the Sci-Fi Channel picked it up. I should really get those DVDs.

You may have just spoiled a major plot point in the series, but whatever–it’s been around for years.

Have you seen Wild Palms? You might like that too.

We just watched on DVD the BBC series Wild West with Dawn French (the west is Cornwall). It’s very odd but very very good. Will have to check out American Gothic - thanks! we don’t watch any tv because I’m allergic to commercials and the news and reality tv. So we watch everything on dvd and rely on recommendations.
I second chris’s recommendation of cracker - that’s quite odd too, but character development is brilliant.

Try Supernatural.

Not season is currently airing anywhere at the moment (they’re filming), but Season 1 is out on DVD and Season 2 will be soon (September 11th USA, October 8th Australia ).

It’s awesome

I watched it when it first came out, and I was so happy when it was finally released on DVD. Flawed, certainly, but the good parts are so very good. Definitely the best supernatural TV show ever created by a former teen heartthrob (Shaun Cassidy), too.

QUOTE: Definitely the best supernatural TV show ever created by a former teen heartthrob (Shaun Cassidy), too.

Huh?
Supernatural was created by Eric Kripke…

Edwina: American Gothic was created by Shaun Cassidy which is what Tim was referring to.

OMG, I freaking LOVED this show while it was on for a nanosecond. And that it was made by Shaun Cassidy? Bliss. Of course, I’m like the Anti-Nielsens, so if I like a show, it’s pretty much doomed.

american gothic - what fun! creepy, mysterious, and cheesy (but in a good way). i am also very partial to the adventures of briscoe county jr. starring bruce campbell, plus john astin as the friendly neighborhood crazy inventor.

Looks like I need to find some American Gothic…

*runs*

i could cry when i think about how much i miss that show. ‘buck with a b’!

I dunno. After a while I got tired of the “Sheriff Lucas offers Caleb a shiny new Corvette but Merlyn convinces Caleb it’s the better part of wisdom to keep his beat-up old bicycle” plot.

Well, really, if she was anything like Jane Austen, she wouldn’t have to BECOME Jane, would she? The film would be called “Being Jane”. Duh!

Look on the bright side, at least she’s not playing William Shakespeare’s wife… that would just be confusing…

She’s done wonderfully at preserving her looks since she became a widow (I wonder if she’s ever going to write an autobiography, and explain why William left her the second best bed.)

(shudder)

what an awful film.

no story. no historical accuracy. and worst of all - no sexual tension. it was like spitting on jane’s grave and then jumping up and down on it yelling ‘ner ner, we destroyed your legacy! harr’.

I’m a sucker for James MacAvoy. So I don’t care.

And I think the way they did up Anne in this movie she looks like the chick who played Fanny in the MP adaptation. And that was the one (movie) that was supposed to have incorporated all that “autobiographical” stuff.

I like to pretend that the whole thing just never happened.

Hey Justine, i just discovered yor blog, I love your writing, and I read on your bio section that you and your husband like to come to Argentina, I live in Buenos Aires, so next time you´re planning a visit please let me know.

All the best

Agreed. That’s not to say I won’t rent it and watch it while eating a giant bowl of ice cream, cooing over the dresses and complaining about Ms. Hathaway’s utter un-Janeness

reminds me of this post by shannon hale:

http://oinks.squeetus.com/2007/06/our-chum-jane.html

Agustina: I’d love to go back to Buenos Aires—I love it!—but sadly there’s no chance of that for several years. Worse luck.

Hwalk: What a lovely post. Thanks for pointing it out. Quite a co-incidence too. I just started reading Shannon Hale for the first time and have been blown away. Princess Academy wasn’t anything like I was expecting. What a wonderful writer she is!

So Justine, who would you pick to play Jane?
Anon

i love the princess bride! my friends have never heard of it. a mangosteen is a fruit? is that like a mango? is it a mango and we americans just shorten it?

speaking of movies, have you ever seen lilo and stitch? its so cute. lilo loves elvis. lots of elvis stuff in that movie. (okay so its a disney cartoon but who cant love a little elvis loving girl who adopts and alien thinkin its a dog?)

*thinking sorry. can’t spell

Bring It On is SO #1. Anyone who says anything else is BANANAS! XX, LC

i guess i really should watch bring it on someday. see what all the hype’s about.

justine, i think you’d better make “mangosteen” a topic in the sidebar…

I love bring it on. bring it on all or nothing is good too. i like watching people tumbling(flipping) and stunting(holding people up in the air) and basket tosses(throwing people in the air) are awesome!

I

heart

bring it on

I will be buying a copy for my daughters and telling them it’s a movie about feminism.

i LOVE all the movies in the “bring it on” “series.” they are my guilty pleasure. If they are on TV, i must watch. my husband thinks it’s funny. The princess bride is another one. It is one of the best movies ever created, for children and adults.

I LOVE Bring It On!!! I agree with it being one of the best movies of all time. It fascinates me every time I watch it…I wish i could be that…cheerleader-y.

I am all over bring it on.
but I do like unicorns.
your title choice won, by the way

do you want to write next week?

thank you, you gave me my wish!

Hah, finally! Aside from my wife and I, you are the only other person I’ve ever known to say zombies are the best monster… Some people just don’t get it Especially those ‘pire-fiends, they won’t listen to reason! Brains are better than blood; it’s higher in essential vitamins and minerals.

There is so much about this post that is just wrong. Except for the cricket, princess bride and hellsing bits. They sound accurate. Clearly the heat and deadlines are getting to your judgement. I mean, really.. bring it on?! That’s your pick? *sigh*

@dess: Mangosteens are not mangos. They’re both fruits, but the naming is just a coincidence. Mangosteens have a slightly more tart taste, although both are quite sweet. Mangosteens are a bit smaller and much darker (purple, almost) in color when ripe. Mmm… now I want a mangosteen or a mango.

huh. i’ve never heard of/seen a mangosteen before. thank you!

wow was mangosteen hyperlinked before? if so, sorry. do you eat the purple part or the white part, or are both eatable?

Bring it on was a great movie directed by a buffoon. All the pacing was off and the occasionally brilliant one-liners were outlined in bold and delivered with exactly the wrong deliberateness. That said, it must be applauded for doing what so few teen movies based in generic white California do–addressing race and class openly. Also it has finally made the point that cheerleading is NOT regressive and sexist. Cheerleading has nothing to do with girls supporting boys. It’s about gymnastics, dancing, wearing short skirts, screaming, and show biz. Oh, and plot necessities aside, the Toros routine was better than the Clovers.

Cricket?? Too organized and slow. you actually mean aussie rules, don’t you? i’m a flippin’ american and i know that! oh, and love your site!

Please forgive me, blog overlord. I truly did not mean to offend. Please be my friend again?

Blog overlord doesn’t have any friends.

But I’m dead pleased you like my blog!

I’ll agree with most of your premise: the cliches and formulaic constructs are annoying. Haven’t seen sunshine, but your description sounds something like I might have expected.

I wonder if you’re viewing the past through rose-coloured glasses a bit, though. There were plenty of truly crap movies in the 80’s and 90’s, too. Only the good ones have survived in our memories and DVD collections.

There’s been a few movies in the past few years I’ve enjoyed a lot. Thinking about it, though, they fall into two categories: Chinese films done well (not all them) and some romantic comedies that I’ve enjoyed with friends and talked about a lot afterwards. The first group might be because I’m not up on the typical Chinese cliches, though, so some of my favourites might suck if you were Chinese. And my friends will be the first to point out that my sense of humour is pretty weird, so the second category could be dubious, too.

i’m so with you. i’ve just picked my 13 films for the Melbourne Film Festival, and i’m feeling guilty for thinking that i’d rather stay home with a bottle of wine and the next episode of studio 60 on the sunset strip.

i think tv is actually better suited to novelists. because you can’t really get to know a character in 120 minutes. but you can in 24 42 minute episodes. there’s much more depth of character*, more time for things to develop and simmer. Sexual tension works sooo much better in tv. i think it’s one of the reasons why there’s never been a really perfect jane austen film made. you just don’t have time to squeeze everything in.

* i’m only talking about the good ones, here.

The Simpsons movie surprised me with how good it was. Maybe not the kind of film to hug close to your heart, but really, really funny and sharp and smart.

But yeah, tv has gotten amazingly good.

Pixar can bite me. I think the rash of animated kids movies with Smurfette syndrome is nothing short of a crisis. Little girls and boys are watching this crap, which basically teaches them that males are the norm and girls are rare, specialized versions of males with skirts on. Pixar and Disney should be boycotted until their development goons get out and notice that half the population is female.

As for the suckiness of movies, I overdosed on them about 7 years ago and only rarely dabble nowadays. I think they blow in part because creative decisions are made by executive types who think they can ensure financial success by following certain packaging formulas, i.e., if you put Actor X in a movie featuring Plot Twist B with sexy Co-star Y, you’ll net Z at the box office. The truth, however, is that box office success is never predictable and the bulk of a film’s earnings come from ancillary markets (like foreign rights and DVD) which are even less predictable than box office. Remember Office Space? Box office disaster, DVD blockbuster. The film industry has become virtually encrusted with self-appointed “winner-pickers” who crowd their names into the producer credits then claim responsibility for every success while dodging the blame for every failure. Add to this the fact that directors (despite their “auteur” status) are increasingly the least experienced people on set and you end up with a formulaic piece of star-packaging slapped together by amateurs. But what do I know. I retired from this miserable business seven years ago.

Definitely not alone. My netflix queue is unapologetically movie-free. Movies can be good (or at least people will tell you they’re good) for lots of reasons, but TV is *only* good when the writing is good. Which I guess is why screenwriters are persona non grata on movie sets but in the land of TV, the writer (I’m looking at you, Joss) is king.

I watch sunshine on the plane. I didn’t like it. I suspect that watching it on a small screen bouncing up and down occasionally probably isn’t the best format to see this film. As you say, my biggest problem was that I didn’t care if they lived or died or if the world was saved or not.

If you’d asked about Mummies, I’d be able to help. Zombies? I got nothing.

I’m a big fan of Dellamorte Dellamore (aka Cemetery Man).

Yeah, I’ve got nothing for ya in the way of Zombies. Vampires? Oh heck yes, I could go on forever. Zombies? Sorry, can’t help ya.

I’ve always loved the cult classic, Return of the Living Dead. It’s a dark comedy all about zombies. Classic. there are some great lines in it and it takes a bit of a different approach to the biology of the zombie. Good stuff. The ending is a bit trite, but it would be great for your zombie intake.

Ummm, I think it is called Night of The Living Dead 2, not the first one, because for some reason this second one is the first one, amd the first one is the sequel, it’s really odd! The movie is a little Betelgeuse-esque, but totally worth it! I loved it at least. I LOVE YOU JUSTINE!

There’s Joe R. Lansdale’s DEAD IN THE WEST, which is a zombie western with ancient Native American magic. Full of Joe’s dry Texan humor and lots of blood and gore. It may be hard to find as a purchase, but you should be able to get it through the libraries (and I will send you my copy for reading if you are interested and can’t find it elsewhere).

Lovecraft’s HERBERT WEST REANIMATOR (and the RE-ANIMATOR movie; don’t bother past the first one) are both entertaining. I enjoyed the movie more, but that’s only because sometimes Lovecraft’s prose just gets so…dense…some times.

Josh Howard has a whole series of graphic novels/comics called DEAD @ 17 which deal with a young girl who died at 17 (duh). I haven’t read them, so I don’t know what the story is like. The art is quite captivating, although it tends towards the male-drawing-women-so-they-have-too-small-waists-and unrealistic-body-shapes syndrome.

The KUROSAGI CORPSE DELIVERY SERVICE manga by eiji otsuka often has zombie scenes/story lines. It’s really well-written. It’s certain adult-oriented, though (not that you’ll be offended).

THE RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD (and its numerous sequels) are silly fun. I got into the first one because it features an all-punk music soundtrack. The movies are not Romero quality, but they are shut-your-brain-off fun.

THE SERPENT AND THE RAINBOW is a movie based on the book of the same name. The book is supposed to be a true account of zombies in Haiti. The movie is a Wes Craven flick, so it’s a little more fantastic than the book, but still good.

There’s a whole bunch of zombie movies from Lucio Fulci (Italian horror) which I’ve not seen, but are supposed to be SHOCKING!

I think I’ll stop. I clearly know more about zombies than I thought.

Shameless plug alert: since you’re open to the non-brain-eating zombie, perhaps you’d like to read my story “Dead Nude Girls” at Strange Horizons:

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2007/20070212/dead-f.shtml

I didn’t do much research besides “how to cure a zombie” google-style searches, or I would be happy to show you my work.

i will probably be smacked for this because it is kinda (okay, very) cheesy, but the first “resident evil” movie. sorry, i’m very taken with the zombie!dogs. they amused me.

maybe the “zombie survival guide”? i haven’t read it, but i’ve heard it’s good.

David Wellington’s zombie novels are pretty cool. Monster Island, Monster Nation, and Monster Planet. The first one’s my favorite. They were published by the late lamented Thunder’s Mouth, but are also available free online:

http://www.brokentype.com/davidwellington/

He’s not a YA writer but Brian Keene wrote a zombie trilogy. No, not a trilogy just 2 books “The Rising” and it’s follow up “City of the Dead” I read them. they were pretty good.

plus a book about man eating earthworms if that is your thing.

When you develop your final list would you post it? i’d love to read more zombie books.

There is a new movie you might want to check out, called Fido, about what happens after the great zombie war when the undead lost. Looks very funny and interesting, my favorite combination ;).

amazing zombie book (there are vampires also): charlie huston’s “already dead.” you’ve got to read that one, you’ll love it, also it’s got a lot of east village settings…

also coincidentally just this morning the guy who sells books on broadway near where i live gave me a novel called “zombies of the gene pool” by sharyn mccrumb, he says it’s excellent but i cannot promise you they are actual rather than metaphorical/allusive zombies! will let you know.

Wow! Thanks everyone. Most excellent recs. Yay! I can’t wait to get cracking.

Gwenda: you’re gunna have to give me more. Is that a movie? A book? A lemon cake? What?

Jessiegirl: Sure, I’ll post the entire list when done.

Jenny Davidson: zombies of the gene pool is indeed a wonderful book. She’s hilarious. No real zombies, but.

Justine, for everything you’d want to know about zombie films up until about 2002 all you have to do is go and read my article “Nights of the Celluloid Dead”:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/zombies//essay/one.shtml

I haven’t updated this to incorporate the current zombie renaissance, but there’s a list (with errors and a few recent omissions) here:

http://www.roberthood.net/obsesses/zombies2004.htm

My personal top ten essentials up to 2000 or so would be:

1. Romero’s Living Dead trilogy (plus “Land of the Dead”)
2. I Walked With A Zombie
3. White Zombie
4. Fulci’s Zombie series (especially Zombie Flesh Eaters) [original WS uncut versions only)
5. Evil Dead 1 (and 2)
6. Re-Animator
7. Jackson’s Braindead [uncut only]
8. Return of the Living Dead
9. Plague of the Zombies
10. The Serpent and the Rainbow

To which, from recent times, I’d add “Shaun of the Dead”, of course.

Other recent titles I’d suggest (to get a taste of those who take a different slant on the genre) would be “The Homecoming” episode of Masters of Horror, “Zombie Honeymoon”, the Japanese films “Versus”, “Junk” and “Wild Zero” (especially the latter), “Feeding the Masses”, “Les Revenants” [”They Came Back”] and of course the “Resident Evil” films. Maybe the Aussie film “The Undead”. There are probably others that I can think of right now. Other suggestions from people who have posted to your blog are good, too.

Many of the films I suggest here are reviewed on my website. Check them out here:

http://www.roberthood.net/reviews/index.html

I hope this helps.

Rob

and there’s a chapter on zombies in marina warner’s “phantasmagoria,” could check the bibliography there too.

I am very fond of Tim Powers’s pirate zombie novel On Stranger Tides, myself, although YMMV.

Rob’s list is pretty much the essential list, my only reservation being the LAND OF THE DEAD, which didn’t work for me except for some great “eyeball kicks”. The only thing I’d add to his list is the great Night Stalker (warning: original 1974 series with Darren McGavin only!)series 1, episode 2 “Zombie”.

In terms of fiction, I think Lucius Shepard’s GREEN EYES is supposed to be the touchstone novel, but I haven’t read it. I thoroughly recommend Richard Matheson’s I AM LEGEND which is not a true zombie novel, but a sort of sui generis zombie/vampire story that is actually an extremely accomplished suspense thriller, and ended up being a major influence on George Romero. The novel is also 100x better than any of the films based on it (LAST MAN ON EARTH and THE OMEGA MAN). There is a forthcoming re-remake, but has all the hallmarks of Hollywood dreck (Will Smith, Michael Bay, script revised by Akiva Goldsman, open studio policy to push script closer to OMEGA MAN than the original novel).

The zombie, though, is much more of a movie creature than a literary one.

seriously, how do I miss an open call to post about zombie knowledge? ack! i feel like i’ve spent the past year trying to get my paws on as much zombie as i can (movies, books, stories, etc etc). i’ll have to cull it all together and post a list!

ah zombies… how i love thee… earlier this year i think i counted like 6 zombie-ish films coming out this year alone. yay zombie resurrection!

Six? I’m sure there’s more than that. I counted 87 from 2004 to 2006! Check out this (very ragged) list.

http://www.roberthood.net/obsesses/zombies2004.htm

And it doesn’t include some films that have crawled out of their graves since I last updated that list mid-2006.

Please tell me you’ve seen Peter Jackson’s NZ production “Dead Alive”. It’s my 2nd favorite Peter Jackson movie (behind The Frighteners…ghosts, not zombies). It’s a horrorcult zombie classic.

There’s also a recent one called _Undead_, an Aussie production. Tries a little too hard to be campy at times, but I love B-horror, especially when zombies are involved! It’s hard to make a truly BAD zombie movie…though I did see Return of the Living Dead Part 2 last night on TV…it was trying pretty hard!

I 2nd Peter Jackson’s ‘Dead Alive’ - it is also known as ‘Braindead’ if you are having trouble finding it. Gotta love a movie that involves Sumatran rat monkeys, a 40-something virgin that still lives with his overprotective mother, custard, NZ accents and zombie death scenes involving lawnmowers and blenders…

I have a moldering, stinky list for you.

1. Return of the Living Dead: Directed by the screenwriter of Alien and Dark Star. Gooey, unique zombies. Self-cremation. People afflicted with Rigor Mortis while they’re still alive. One of the best horror-comedies ever IMHO.

2. Night Life: Teenage mortician’s apprentice tormented by bullies after they die in a car crash. With John Astin of the Addam’s family. Hard to find but I have a DVDr (just say the word).

3. Zombie (Zombie 2 in Europe): Unofficial Euro “sequel” to Dawn… Kind of dumb but with great atmosphere. Voodoo. Shark vs. Zombie. Squirm inducing close-up violence to eye.

4. White Zombie: Early “poverty row” Lugosi Zombie pick. Very atmospheric. Has a great scene with zombies milling sugar and the zombies keep falling in.

5. Night of the Comet: 80s era End of the world rip-off of Dawn. More Mutants than zombies but hold up really well.

6. Night of the Creeps: Retro feeling zombies-on-Campus pic with space slugs jumping in mouths.

7. Slither: More space slugs. Quirky and well-written with guy from Firefly/Buffy

8. Carnival of Souls: Not a zombie per se but after-life mystery with creepiest pasty dead guy I have ever seen.

Other media: Brian Keene’s zombie novels are guilty pleasures, Leisure just put one out this month. Also tack down the WWZ audio-book if you can. Full dramatic production with great voice talent and sound design.

Night of the Living Dead was the first VHS tape I ever owned. I have seen it probably 30-40 times

That’s lovely. And the perfect place to wear it for maximum appreciation, too.

!!!!!!!! Dude, I can’t stop laughing. I want one.

okay, that’s what brings a smile to my face. high-larious.

Ha, that’s funny. I must admit I didn’t know what a mary sue was. But I checked Wikipedia and it’s even funnier. Okay, I didn’t know what a mary sue is, but anyone who hasn’t read Harry Potter is way worse!

love it!

Too funny!!

It reminds me a shirt I saw in a bookshop once that said “Fictional Character” on it. I still regret not getting it–if I ever see it again…

~Mary

Hi Jim. Photos i received. Thanks

What a great tee shirt!!

please let us know if this shirt is available for order! google was entirely unhelpful.

Until July 1, you can place orders for the shirt here!

http://praetorianguard.livejournal.com/261148.html

Wonderful. Just wonderful. Go Rutgers!

Go, Coach Yow, go. Represent!

they air less than 50% of the women’s basketball here, on local tv. but i really need my sports fix once the nba finals are over, so i may just go to a game, if they’re cheap and someone will come with me. i don’t know much about the silver stars yet, but i imagine i’ll get to know them soon enough.

yay for rutgers!!

Cheryl: Indeed.

Richard: North Carolina. Of course.

Rebecca: You can get very cheap tickets to the women’s game. And the good seats are way way way cheaper than for the men’s. You should totally go to some games. They’re wonderful!

The Silver Stars have been playing well this season. They now have Becky Hammon who was the New York Liberty’s star. Her being traded was a huge shock. Our loss; your gain. She’s a wonderful shooting guard. You’ll love watching her play. You also have tough veteran Vickie Johnson who’s also ex-Liberty.

the liberty/mercury game made me cry also - but not for the same reasons it made you cry!

and, yes, timmsy is a goddess. she’s also very nice. she had her 3 1/2 year old daughter with her, who is gorgeous and rather sassy. so i got to meet the kid as well. very cool.

Amy: It was an awesome game though. Could have gone either way right up till the end. You don’t begrudge us our 4 game winning streak, do you? We haven’t had one of those in ages. And we’re doing it without our beloved Becky.

justine: no, it’s about time the liberty had that kind of start to the season - i just wish it was at some other team’s expense! the mercury were 4-1 and now we’re 4-3. (that’s what we get for tanking the game against CT.) argh.

it was a good game though - i watched the webcast online. and screamed my anguish at the computer. i’m sure if you had been listening carefully you would have heard me in ny!

I’m fond of Pheonix. They have Diana Taurasi who’s awesome to watch—I love the combo of her and Cappie Pondexter—and then there’s the two Aussies, Penny Taylor and Belinda Snell. Not to mention Timmsy on the coaches’ bench. Other than the Liberty and then Seattle (c’mon, Lauren Jackson!) they’re my favourite WNBA team.

i was pretty impressed by the liberty. yes, penny and snelly are fabulous. timmsy’s not coaching for the merc at the moment - she works in the front office for the south dragons in melbourne.

I guess she got homesick. I so understand!

I know what you mean about DREAMGIRLS. We just watched it over the weekend and loved it. I love the current renaissance of the movie musical (thank you Baz Luhrman!) that we’re experiencing. I didn’t hate the music, but wasn’t particularly moved by it, either. Many of the ‘conversation songs’ felt like RENT-lite.

And I totally get what you’re feeling with THE ROAD. I was totally digging the book…and then it ended. And not in a good way, IMO. I’m struggling over the final paragraph. It may have soured the whole book for me.

Wish you were going to be at Wiscon. :_(

i have never been to paris, though it is in my top ten places to see. but i had my first NYC experience this past weekend and i loved it. i would totally move there if i could.

pistons-spurs final! i certainly hope so. though i do like steve nash and raja bell quite a bit and would be happy with a pistons-sun final as well. still, i’d like to see detroit make up for that loss to the spurs … year before last? it’s all a blur. apart from last year’s boring final, anyway.

“there are three rules for writing a novel. unfortunately, no one knows what they are.”

hee.

i am reading city of bones right now!! mwahahaha.

“So Pistons-Spurs final?”

we have to make it past the suns first. of course, we will. even nash can’t stop us, mwahahahahaha!! unfortunately, limited local broadcasting might stop me. i feel your pain with that whole cricket thing. ARGH!!

aaaaaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhhh.

oh well. would have been a boring series if there was a sweep.

Just a minute now — Jennifer Hudson singing “And I Am Telling You I’m Not Going” is the most amazing musical performance I’ve ever heard in a movie musical. It brought my personal house down.

I can take your point about a lot of the other numbers, but that one was hands-down phenomenal.

Klima: I definitely loved Dreamgirls but I cannot remember a single song. Not a one. Those were the most nothing songs I have ever heard in my life. Music + lyrics = nothing.

There was a lot I lvoed about The Road, but yeah I’m not sure if it worked as a whole. Guess I’ll have to reread it. That I want to speaks volumes. I loved the stripped away language. That as the world fell apart so too did the language available to describe it. Very cool.

On the NBA finals: I oughtn’t to say this with Rebecca around but I’d much rather a Pistons-Suns final I just think Spurs are more likely. Don’t hate me, Rebecca! What can I say the Nash-Stoudemire duo is amazing!

Karen: I’m glad those songs worked for someone. And i totally agree that Hudson sold everything she sang. She’s incredible. What she sang? Not so much. Those songs were like copies of copies of copies of copies leaving no residue behind.

Okay, I see what you’re saying, and am relieved we will not need to resort to fisticuffs. Yeah — one of the best things about many musicals is how you can walk away from them singing magical, powerhouse songs for years afterwards. Dreamgirls didn’t offer that. But the Hudson numbers, and Beyonce’s final moments in the studio — I did love hearing them sung.

yeahhhh, well, i guess i’ll let it slide. this time. nash and stoudemire are, ya know, pretty okay at basketball.

just so long as you don’t become a mavs fan.