A couple days ago, a friend of mine who happens to have been a seminarian together with me in the Legion of Christ posted a photo on the wall of a Facebook page supporting Abortion. The picture was of an unborn child, with the caption: “Pretend I’m a tree and save me”. The comments on the photo soon became a raging discussion, and several ex-legionary friends of mine got themselves into it
I simply wanted to share the text of this argument with you, since it really got me going. I had to step into it, and before I knew it, I was sucked into the argument myself. What do you think? Who won? Aside from your own views on the subject, which side displayed better decency and taste? Below is the text, taken from the comment section of the photo, with the last names eliminated, except my own. (Caution, some language).
Site Administrator http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/are-you-serious-rage-face.jpg
Yesterday at 12:07pm · Like
Joshua F. you are angry? because it is true
Yesterday at 12:07pm · Like · 2 people
Jason H. I think it was said before, but ‘if someone planted an unwanted tree in my yard, i’d have it ripped out too’. put that in your pipe and smoke it brah.
Yesterday at 12:20pm · Like · 2 people
Joshua F. why dont you protect your yard with a fence?
Yesterday at 12:21pm · Like · 1 person
Joshua F. besides less than 3% of abortions are because of rape
Yesterday at 12:25pm · Like
James B. This is pointing to the environmentalists. Not to the average person, like me, who doesn’t give a thought about trees.
Most Greenies will yell and scream if a tree is cut down because it is part of nature, but at the same time, they don’t seem to care about nature’s most beautiful wonder: the human person.
Like · 1 person
Joshua F. ^Amen, BroVenga
Site Administrator Oh, I’m not angry. Just amazed that you posted the exact same photo that was just effortlessly ridiculed in my last status.
Also, who the fuck builds a fence around their vagina?
Yesterday at 1:09pm · Like · 1 person
haha- oh ‘human life is precious’ ‘the most beautiful wonder’. ok gentlemen, Joshua and James – how many unwanted children have you adopted? are you and your ilk sending money to help clothe, feed and take care of these unwanted kids? iflife is ‘so precious’, why don’t I see these same half-wits that are standing outside of Planned Parenthood also standing in front of the churches DEMANDING that the Pope be brought up on charges of obstruction of justice regarding CHILD RAPE. answer = because none of you hypocrite give a FUCK about those kids once they’re born. FACT.
Yesterday at 2:04pm · Like
Joshua F. ”fence” was a metaphor for selfcontrol–dont let people into your body if you cant handle the consequences.Dont worry Jason, we 20 yrs olds in college, are praying a lot for you….
Yesterday at 3:17pm · Like · 1 person
Joshua F. Jason, you keep pointing fingers…what are you doing to help the world? besides bashing on other people who stand up for what is morally right??
Yesterday at 3:18pm · Like
if you’re worried about child abuse, you can look to reform america’s schools before you worry about a few terrible priests. that’s where more children are abused, if you want to be fair.
and you also can’t use an ad hominem attack buddy. doesn’t make your point look valid.
once i have money, I do plan on helping in one way or another. and I have helped out single mothers who need someone to watch their babies while they work, or someone to clean the house, do the laundry, etc. So thanks for judging me.
Yesterday at 3:21pm · Like · 2 people
’judging you’ huh? like you people judge the women that choose to have an abortion? i can think of no other ‘judgement’ that infringes on human rights more than hiding behind an invisible man in the clouds who commands you to meddle in other people’s bodies. SO – would you like to provide information as to when and where MILLIONS of dollars of hush money were paid out from ‘america’s schools’ for covering up acts of pedophilia like the church has ADMITTED to? I’d love to see it.
Yesterday at 3:28pm · Like · 1 person
Joshua F. okay, chief. I dont judge them, i pray for them and the children that are murdered. You dont even have to be a believer in God to know abortion is not a good idea. Just coming from a human instinct perspective. we are not made to selfdestruct.
Yesterday at 3:33pm · Like
oh and Joshua, PRAY away my condescending friend. you ’20 year olds in college’ need to worry about passing your classes and less about what a female does with her own body. what have I done to help the world? I point out the follies ofhypocrites like you and I have suggested to more then a few female friends that they have an abortion if they’re not ready for motherhood. some did, some didn’t. THEIR CHOICE, not yours. as well as being involved in an abortion when I was 21 and my girlfriend was 19. the condom broke. neither her nor I were ready to be parents. her and I remain close friends to this day and have NEVER regretted that decision. she and her husband have a child of their own now that they were ready for when the time came. IMAGINE THAT!!!!???!!! people like YOU would love to have seen her have that baby and struggle at the tender age of 19. but being a ’20 year old college student’, you know everything about the world already right?
Yesterday at 3:36pm · Like · 3 people
Joshua F. im a 20 year old who has selfcontrol and has and never will get a women pregnant out of wedlock. You made the decision to have sex before marriage/or before you were ready to have a child. Basic Bio Newsflash for you: The end result and goal of sexual intercourse is the proliferation of children. You have sex, you have babies. really easy stuff
Yesterday at 3:40pm · Like · 3 people
Chris H. I am a 18 year old and can tell you that the reason that you are hating God and the rest of the world is that deep down inside of you, you find that you hate yourself and can not let it go.
Yesterday at 3:49pm · Like · 2 people
Chris H. The only ones who are “meddling in other people’s bodies” are the ones who don’t have self-control to wait until Marriage to have sex.
Yesterday at 3:58pm · Like · 2 people
WillYum O. Josh, some people are just too close minded. People will argue without considering what you have to say, and it just won’t end because everyone wants the last word. In other words, http://www.traemcneely.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/hatersbaby.jpg
Yesterday at 4:06pm · Like · 3 people
Statistically, there have been 33,541 abortions since this image was posted. 
No matter what you guys say, abortions prevail.
Victory is upon us.
And if God disapproves of abortion (which he doesn’t, he’s instructed the slaying of many pregnant women), he can damn me to eternal torture. So, take comfort in that thought of me burning, when my times comes, despite you being unable to prove that in anyway, your (laughably) naive imaginations wil surelyl accommodate you.
20 hours ago · Like · 3 people
Johnny F. ”The only ones who are “meddling in other people’s bodies” are the ones who don’t have self-control to wait until Marriage to have sex.”
Does it suck being an ugly virgin, Chris?
20 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Johnny F. ”Basic Bio Newsflash for you: The end result and goal of sexual intercourse is the proliferation of children.”
WRONG. As much as you little perverts would like to, you don’t get to define the “results” and “goals” of anybody else’s sexual activity. Why don’t you go jerk off to a picture of the Virgin Mary so you don’t feel so sexually agitated and eager to butt into other people’s sex lives?
20 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Joshua F. What do you mean “WRONG”?? havent you ever taken biology? sex is supposed to create life. case closed. and it is better to be an ugly virgin who knows that he has the peace that comes with a clear conscience than to be and ugly pervert who is obsessed with teletubbies. grow up
19 hours ago · Like
Luke Clougher Joshua, be careful not to descend to the level of name-calling, as tempting as it is. You can’t know Johnny is a pervert obsessed with teletubbies any more than he can know you are a sexually agitated little pervert.
19 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Luke Clougher I will say that this picture does not do a lot to help the pro-life movement, since its force is based on sarcasm, which is never a wise tool for winning hearts.
19 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Luke Clougher that said, I would certainly remove an unwanted tree from my yard, but would never kill somebody I didn’t want to be around.
19 hours ago · Like
Johnny F. ”sex is supposed to create life.”
That’s like me telling you that your main motivation for eating a brownie should be to create poop, and how dare you try to flush that poop that you created.
19 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Luke Clougher While it is true that the Church has previously emphasized that the purpose of marriage is the procreation of children, it has currently realized that this could lead to some mistaken ideas of that being the sole purpose, and, especially under JPII’s Theology of the Body, has begun to emphasize the role of sex in marriage as the ultimate expression of love.
19 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Luke Clougher As far as @Site Administrator’ contribution to this discussion, just because something is allowed doesn’t mean it’s right. Imagine Hitler saying the following: ” statistically, there have been 6 million Jews exterminated since I became the Fuhrer No matter what you guys say, the Third Reich will prevail. Victory is upon us.”
18 hours ago · Like · 3 people
Luke Clougher I will also not be surprised if you say you’ve heard this analogy before, because, yes, I heard it from someone else. Nevertheless, it is a valid analogy, and perhaps that is why it keeps popping up.
18 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Luke Clougher What is, however, not a valid analogy, is comparing an unborn child, or “fetus” to human excrement. This is so because, even if a fetus were not a human being, it is alive and capable of becoming a person. A turd, on the other hand is merely destined to become sewage–therefore the two are not of even remotely equal value.
18 hours ago · Like · 2 people
Johnny F. You’re right, since poop usually causes no adverse physical effects and is easily excreted by the body in a matter of hours and an unwanted pregnancy will plague its host for nine months with torturous physical and emotional effects and then emerge in a bloody mess and cause the most extreme pain humanly imaginable, it’s not really a fair comparison.
18 hours ago · Like
James B. lol if you compare babies to poop, you have no heart. sorry, but it’s true. if you were trying to be smart, you sounded foolish, and if you tried to be funny, you weren’t.
and jason, why do you keep throwing a red herring into this discussion? child abuse has nothing to do with child murder. you are fighting for a right to privacy. i am fighting for a right to life. which is more important? think about it for a few minutes. life or privacy? note that more than half the time, the woman became pregnant BY CHOICE, such as your gf.
18 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Site Administrator Fun Fact: Most women poop during labor, but no one ever talks about it. 
18 hours ago · Like · 2 people
Thank you, Johnny. I’m glad you agree with me that it’s an unfair comparison. I really appreciate honesty. But be careful not to push your point too far, though; now you seem to be implying that unborn humans are not like human waste, but rather that they are worse than human waste. It would be sad if that is really what you thought, but you are entitled to feel that way. It may get a few laughs too from people with poor taste, but in general, going around saying that fetuses are worse than sewage may not turn out to be very popular in winning over many decent-minded people in the long run.
18 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Johnny F. Just noticed this gem:
“nature’s most beautiful wonder: the human person.”
*VOMIT*
18 hours ago · Like
Luke Clougher And I’m not just picking on you, because, as I said above, I don’t think that poking fun at environmentalists is a great strategy for the pro-life movement either. Discussion of this sensitive issue needs to be tasteful and rational, in a spirit of understanding rather than childish argumentation.
18 hours ago · Like
Chris H. @johnny, No it does not “suck being a virgin” and I thank God for giving me the grace to live my life in a moral way.
I will pray for you, and just so you know, I do not hate the people that support abortion.
all I ask is that you do the same.
16 hours ago · Unlike · 2 people
Peter S. I wonder who will win this argument. If the pro-choicers do, i don’t think I or any pro-lifer is going to change parties. By the same token, I don’t think any pro-choicer will change his mind given the reverse situation.
16 hours ago · Unlike · 4 people
Hopefully we all win, in the sense that all of us walk away from this discussion having needed to examine more deeply the reasons and motivations we have for believing and acting as we do, in order to express ourselves more clearly to our opponents. “Opponents” is the operative word here, rather than “enemies”. We all have our shortcomings and none of us are perfect. But the Truth is out there, and the truth always wins. When the truth wins, it’s good for all of us. As our friend the administrator of this site pointed out, “Victory is upon us”. οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνδρὶ ἀγαθῷ κακὸν οὐδὲν οὔτε ζῶντι οὔτε τελευτήσαντι, οὐδὲ ἀμελεῖται ὑπὸ θεῶν τὰ τούτου πράγματα. Vexilla regis prodeunt. “This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.”
16 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Rob S. ”nature’s most beautiful wonder: the human person.”
No. This is nothing more than an egotistical, self-serving view that we are somehow more important and valuable than everything else on this planet.
16 hours ago · Like · 2 people
Rob S. And to the person who said that the only reason for sex is procreation, what are infertile people supposed to do?
I realize we cleared this up somewhat, when another person said that the church had changed its view on the subject, that sex is an expression of love, which I agree with.
However, sex also has health benefits such as stress releif, burning calories, boosting self-esteem and intimacy with your partner.
16 hours ago · Like
Lauretta R. Joshua – are we back to the imbeciles argument that sex is only for reproduction and people who dont want children should be celibate?
11 hours ago · Like
Lauretta R. Rob in NATURE most human sexual activity wont lead to pregnancy even if no contraceptive is used. Nature did not intend for sex in humans to always result in pregnancy. Otherwise females wouldnt be sexually receptive except when they were fertile, like most other mammals.
11 hours ago · Like
Luke Clougher Very good, Lauretta. You make an extremely valid observation, and it is true that sexual intimacy is a special thing that goes beyond mere functionality in human beings. Yet as Rob pointed out above, we have already cleared up the misunderstanding, and said that the Catholic Church does not teach that sex is only for reproduction.
9 hours ago · Like
you simply cannot attempt to reason with a person who is brainwashed into the cult of ‘god’ and all its hypocritical rhetoric. these same people will DENY to the end that their ‘religion’ has caused more suffering, torture and MURDER thanany disease on this planet has ever caused. these ‘people’ claim to have ‘inner peace’ yet they will FIGHT to the end to FORCE every being on this planet to believe what they believe – or they will shower you with righteous indignation. like ‘Chris’ up there, trying to tell me that I hate myself. he WISHES I did, because deep down all religious zealots carry hate and bigotry in their brainwashed minds. they cannot deny this as much as they try. ‘to each, his own’ – a phrase that the indoctrinated simply CANNOT handle. they will FORCE their ‘god’ down your throat no matter what, and will judge you accordingly. when it is their ‘god’ alone that is supposed to judge. HYPOCRITES, all of them.
7 hours ago · Like · 1 person
@ Luke – the Catholic Church sure does like to cover up those molestations huh? I’m beginning to think you Catholics want to have more babies saved just so they can grow up and have the priests rape them. I have never, nor ever will follow whatever the ‘church’ says is right or wrong. when the pope stops covering up the CHILD RAPES, maybe then you’ll gain an ounce of credibility before you can preach your nonsense. you brainwashed sheep.
7 hours ago · Like · 1 person
Joshua F. Praying for you, jason
2 hours ago · Like
I love you, Jason, because you stick to your guns no matter what, which is a good quality to have. I would rather stick to the original topic of this conversation, which is the morality of abortion, but it would appear that, at least in your opinion, my credibility is negligible because I am Catholic, and there are certain Catholics who have committed or covered up child abuse. Therefore, in the the interest of maintaining ethos, I will say the following. Child molestation is a disgusting and terrible evil. I abhor and revile the abuse of children with all my heart. It should never be ignored or covered up under any circumstance whatsoever. Catholics who perform these acts or cover them up, whatever their rank or privilege in the church, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. There have been priests who molested children, and there have been bishops who covered it up. They are now facing the legal consequences of their actions, and rightly so. Our current Pope is not among those who are guilty of these actions. Accusations have been leveled against him, and it has been shown that these were untrue. He could still be proven guilty of some act of hushing up, but until that time, He is innocent till proven guilty. I follow his teaching because I have seen the beautiful and brilliant works of Theology he has written, have analysed their merit and found them worthy of credibility. I freely chose to be Catholic and follow the Pope, I have not been brainwashed into it. If you would like, I could give you every single reason I have to believe what I believe, in the form of logical and balanced syllogisms, tested by millennia of rational argumentation. I could give you the historical data which confirm the legitimacy of the line of succession of the Papacy. I could even give you seven philosophical proofs for the existence of God, but it might not be worth the time and effort explaining the terminology and concepts involved if you already struggle with capitalization. (sorry, that was a cheap shot…see, even self-righteous Catholics lose their cool once in a while If you applied you tenacity to something other than baiting people into losing their tempers, you could really do some good, especially as someone named Jason, which comes from the Greek verb “iasthai”: to heal, and is related to the Hebrew name Yehoshua, or as we know it nowadays, Jesus. Not bad for a Sheep, eh? Maybe I’ve just got a Good Shepherd.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person
Luke Clougher *your* tenacity…see, God is punishing me for making fun of your grammar!
about an hour ago · Like
love you too buddy. no one is ‘baiting’ anyone – and no one is losing their tempers. especially me. and my non-use of capitalization is in part due to my carpal tunnel sometimes acting up, so reaching that pinky over to the ‘shift’ key sometimes hurts. my apologies. we all can’t be grammatically correct all the time. even the best of us, like me.
there is no possible way to ‘prove’ the existence of god, try as you may. but if it does exist, it would probably be a female – and she’d probably be pissed at the shenanigans against women’s rights you people are committing. you follow your leaders in the church, i will follow my free thinking mind and make moral decisions for myself. the huge difference is, people like you cannot accept my choice of lifestyle and have to write essays to try prove us wrong and claim to knowing some ‘truth’, which is ultimately extremely condescending. while i could care less how you live your life and would never try to get people to stop believing whatever makes them happy. as long as it doesn’t interfere with another’s human rights. which removing the choice of abortion for women clearly does.
and i think my mom named me after the ‘jason and the argonauts’ movie. sorry to disappoint you.
ps – F the pope. see, i can capitalize even if it hurts sometimes, but its worth it. ♥
about an hour ago · Like
Chris H. Jason, I thought you just said that you don’t hate anyone and now you have just sent a messige of hate to the world about “F”ing the Pope.
about an hour ago · Like
ChrisH. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=232331486826080&set=a.227189217340307.57113.165284543530775&type=1&ref=nf
59 minutes ago · Like
Luke Clougher Sorry about your carpal tunnel, man. See, that’s why we can never judge anybody! I too believe we should never force our own opinions on others when they’re not hurting somebody else’s human rights, and that’s why the crucial question is: is a fetus human, and if so, does it have rights? There’s so much we still have left to learn scientifically about life; nothing is black and white.
53 minutes ago · Like
Luke Clougher Jason of the Argonauts was a cool guy, by the way. Greek, too, by the way…and this link showed up on my twitter feed a couple seconds ago. Check it out.http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/27/us-pope-idUSTRE79Q2U920111027
Pope expresses shame for Christian violence in history
ASSISI, Italy (Reuters) – Pope Benedict, leading a global inter-religious meetin…See More
52 minutes ago · Like ·
