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I’m so glad you wrote this and I’m with you 100% - and if the focus does move to more reliable wireless I’ll buy you a drink for making these great points

[…] K.G. Schneider - “If Information Today wants to spend money on an improvement, ensuring MESH wifi for their conference sites would be my vote.” Posted in ITI | Trackback | del.icio.us | Top Of Page […]

If Information Today wants to spend money on an improvement, ensuring MESH wifi for their conference sites would be my vote. Meanwhile, horseman, SWIFTly pass by.

Michael Sauers and I were saying the same thing the other day! Good wifi is much more important than a corporate “social web platform” that I really don’t need anyway.

Thanks, Joshua! I am sure they’d rather spend their money on something that will keep us coming back.

Yep. I can’t see a single reason to even think about using this from a end-user perspective. This has “ALA Message Center” vibes all over it. Otter Group has not shown me, with the exception of a nice comment on my blog, that they get this whole arena at all.

[…] platform.” Like slides, blog posts, delicious tags… the stuff I generally post here. (Read on Source) This entry was posted on Friday, March 21st, 2008 at 1:00 pm and is filed under 4492. You […]

This is all good. And I’m enjoying getting to hear your feedback, kickback to this experiment.

A few years back, I wrote a little paper called, “If Information Wants to be Free, who’s Going to Pay for it.” http://www.dlib.org/dlib/may00/kaser/05kaser.html

You don’t have to tell me how great free wireless is, since I’m constantly working from remote locations, often with my laptop balanced on a window ledge to steal someone’s open access link. But the point I was making in that Y2K paper still applies. For something to be free, someone has to pay.

My understanding is that the hotels where we hold our events want to charge us a fee for each person in order to make wireless available.

Now take $29 a day (or whatever egregious rate the hotel wants to charge) and multiply it times 2000 people, times 3 days and you can see why we might not be able to pay that, and still charge a registration fee that our attendees would find reasonable.

I’m not convinced that if we paid that fee anywhere near 2000 people would take advantage of it. Nor am I convined it would actually work, since most hotels were not designed with this technology in mind.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m with you. I’d like to make that happen. And hopefully one day we will be able to give you an entirely wireless conference experience.

In the meantime, we’d like to give you something that we can give you. A sandbox.

You don’t have to play in the Swift sandbox if you don’t want to. In fact, your decision not to participate, tells us something important about our need to provide a Web 2.0 platform for our delegates (something that others have suggested to us. with as much fervor as you are going after wireless).

The Swift experiment is giving ITI an opportunity to decide whether providing our attendees with Web 2.0 stuff is something they want to do, without our having to invest in inventing the platform.

You’ve made a rather convincing argument that you don’t really need anything special. You can just use the tools you’ve already got. Great feedback! If nothing else, maybe this trial will provide me with the ability to cross off one expressed user expectation from the development list.

But our decision not to do 2.0 stuff for our conference goers will not result in a decision to provide free wireless. There is no comparison in the economic models.

Dick Kaser
ITI VP, Content

I’m reading this on a holiday so I’m going to stick with the events of the day and respond to this by tomorrow evening. But the gist of this message is to explain to me and my readers that stuff costs money. As messages go, it’s not that far from the sergeant in my Air Force days who used to shout “righty tighty, lefty loosey!” as he walked past me while I was working on an aircraft engine. It’s always telling what people think they need to explain.

Also, a friend pointed me to David Lee King’s take on this SWIFT stuff. Good analysis, DLK.

[…] the holiday weekend, Dick Kaser, ITI’s VP for Content, posted a comment to my post about SWIFT, the not-so-swift “2.0 platform” ITI had invested in for its […]

Jessamyn, this is something I literally never thought of, and I’m supposed to be the electronic resources/popular culture/whatever librarian. We have OverDrive and NetLibrary, and I’m working on screencasts to show patrons how to download both eBooks and eAudio (well, I will be working on it when we jump all the bureaucracy hurdles to buy the software), which of course are totally different on the two platforms. I planned to have “sorry no iPods” information, but now I think I’ll add a link to Openculture as well. Thanks so much!

I’ve been following the whole e-audiobooks movement pretty closely, and most libraries pair their NetLibrary/Overdrive subscription with circulating non-iPod mp3 players. So not only can we say yes, there are other free e-audiobook services out there that work with iPods (as well as a terrific paid service, Audible.com), but we can lend you an mp3 player that *will* work with our service. Now there’s a solid response. Oh, and to your links for free sources, you can add: Project Gutenberg and FreeAudio.org.

Our library web site has a page of alternatives to Overdrive (which is offered by our statewide public library consortium), for the reasons you mention in your post. I have had some upset ipod users, and am hoping listing a bunch of alternative links will help them out.

Most of our patrons find our Overdrive collection by searching our OPAC, and linking directly to the Overdrive page for that material. I agree with offering alternatives, but if we can’t add those books/digital audio to our OPAC, I don’t see an advantage to our patrons. Has anyone checked these other sites for permission to do just that?

Jessamyn - one more source for free audio is Assistive Media, which produces short format works (fiction and non-fiction, mostly from magazines) for the visually impaired. The collection includes works from The New Yorker, Harpers, and a wide range of others. Good stuff.

[…] Contact the Webmaster Link to Article bill gates Overdrive and audiobooks and the pervasive ipod » This excerpt is from an article posted at librarian.net on Friday, August 17, 2007 Overdrive and audiobooks and the pervasive ipod August 17th, 2007 | Posted in ‘puters | 1 Comment » tags: audiobooksm openculturem freeculture, … faultmaker — whether it’s Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or Overdrive .” and then the story ends Summary Provided by Technorati.comView Original Article » 10 Most Recent News Articles About West 8 […]

[…] YouTube Link to Article drm Overdrive and audiobooks and the pervasive ipod » This excerpt is from an article posted at librarian.net on Friday, August 17, 2007 Overdrive and audiobooks and the pervasive ipod August 17th, 2007 | Posted in ‘puters | 1 Comment » tags: audiobooksm openculturem freeculture, … don’t play DRM-ed Windows Media files which are the types of files Overdrive makes available Summary Provided by Technorati.comView Original Article » 10 Most Recent News Articles About DRM […]

I just attended an Overdrive presentation and the CEO said that most of their audiobooks can be burned to CD and then brought over to an iPod. He showed us their interface which made burning CDs really easy. Was he misrepresenting the product or are there a few more steps involved?

Terry, that is a really good question. To the best of my knowledge that’s correct. In fact the fairly standard way of getting around any DRM system is to burn the music to CD and then reimport it to your computer. This works for iTunes Music Store files since what you’re technically doing is converting the file from an AAC file to an AIFF file and back again.

More inportantly, however, is whether overdrive’s licensing agreement with the library allows this sort of burning/importing. Since it would seem to be a revenue loss for Overdrive, I’d be surprised if it was allowed, but if you think that’s what the CEO is saying, I’d be curious to see libraries try it. This is something we can already do for books on CD, but I don’t see a lot of libraries doing that either. It becomes a tricky issue: when you can no longer circulate an item but instead just give it away what does that do to the library lending model. Thanks everyone for your comments so far.

Re: Terry - from the Overdrive website, burning to CD requires that the publisher has allowed the audiobook to be burned. I would’ve been VERY surprised if it was otherwise.

Jessamyn, as a patron I think this is a very constructive response to Overdrive. I’m very anti-DRM and Overdrive bugs me, but if DRM has a place it’s in the library. I think the logic of using DRM in this situation depends on how many times patrons listen to audiobooks in a given time period. If most folks only listen once, then there’s little risk in distributing them as mp3s via a limited-access site (by domain or library card #). This is the model used by many scientific journals, though there are valid criticisms (cost) there too. I wish that library systems would negotiate with publishers to create services they think are optimal, rather than snapping up the DRM services.

If people listen more than once then it’s in publishers’ interests to DRM library files to, as you said, provide the library experience. Of course, devoted buccaneers will either circumvent the DRM or dub through the analog hole, and OD does nothing to stop CD ripping. Perhaps the publishers hope that OD will reduce or replace physical media - what do you think? Also, I wonder about the cost/benefit of libraries providing music players, and whether is might make more sense to just get the CDs…

However, from a rhetorical perspective OD is great: an in-your-face example of what DRM is and why it sucks.

We set up a Google custom search to help patrons find free audiobooks: http://www.lfpl.org/Databases/downloadableaudiobooks.htm

@ Jake - I checked my handouts and couldn’t find any numbers, but my notes mention that the CEO said that many publishers were allowing burning. He also said that he had much less success with Overdrive’s music and movie suppliers.

@ Jessamyn - We were impressed enough that we’ll be going with Overdrive next year. I can report more then. I will say that the choice was made based on price, selection, and ease of use and without DRM consideration. It also helps that we can integrate it with our catalog.

I’m a very satisfied patron of the Capital Area District Library in Lansing, Michigan. They provide me access to audio books through OverDrive and NetLibrary. They’ve also recently added eVideos from OverDrive.

Regarding OverDrive allowing CD burning, the local FAQ states:

“The publisher of each title decides whether or not to allow the title to be burned to CD; this decision is at the publisher’s discretion. Many publishers enable this functionality while others choose not to permit this use of their content.”

As I quickly browse the new audiobook selection I would guess about 25% allow CD burning (the icon is very visible for each record.)

I really like the service and bought my mp3 player specifically to listen to these audio books.

Send a letter to the Boston Public Library
http://www.fsf.org/news/letter-to-the-bpl/view

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“I therefore urge the Boston Public Library to terminate its association with OverDrive Audio Books, and adopt a policy of refusing to be agents for the propagation of Digital Restrictions Management.”

Richard Stallman sent a letter to the Boston Public Library (BPL) asking them to abandon the system they currently use to distribute audio books, since this format requires the use of proprietary software. It is illegal in the US to release free software capable of reading these audio books because of the Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) measures that are being imposed.

You can help by sending your own letter to the BPL (gref at bpl dot org) and by examining the policies of your own local library. We would be glad to see CCs of any letters you send at , and to hear about any similar policies in place at libraries other than the BPL.

Please keep an eye on our DRM campaign area for future updates about this and other related issues.
http://www.fsf.org/news/letter-to-the-bpl/view

Letter to the Boston Public Library
http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/bpl.html

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To the Management of the Boston Public Library,

Don Saklad forwarded me your message which reports that OverDrive Audio Books use “copyright protection technology” made by Microsoft.

The technology in question is an example of Digital Restrictions Management (DRM)–technology designed to restrict the public. Describing it as “copyright protection” puts a favorable spin on a mechanism intended to deny the public the exercise of those rights which copyright law has not yet denied them.

The use of that format for distributing books is not a fact of nature; it is a choice. When a choice leads to bad consequences, it ought to be changed, and that is the case here. I respectfully submit that the Boston Public Library has a responsibility to refuse to distribute anything in this format, even if it seems “convenient” to some in the short term.

By making the choice to use this format, the Boston Public Library gives additional power to a corporation already twice convicted of unfair competition.

This choice excludes more than just Macintosh users. The users of the GNU/Linux system, an operating system made up of free/libre software, are excluded as well. Since these audiobooks are locked up with Digital Restrictions Management (DRM), it is illegal in the US to release free/libre software capable of reading these audiobooks. Apple may make some sort of arrangement to include capable software in MacOS (which is, itself, non-free software for which users cannot get source code). But we in the free software community will never be allowed to provide software to play them, unless laws are changed.

There is another, deeper issue at stake here. The tendency of digitalization is to convert public libraries into retail stores for vendors of digital works. The choice to distribute information in a secret format–information designed to evaporate and become unreadable–is the antithesis of the spirit of the public library. Libraries which participate in this have lost their hearts.

I therefore urge the Boston Public Library to terminate its association with OverDrive Audio Books, and adopt a policy of refusing to be agents for the propagation of Digital Restrictions Management.
Sincerely
Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
MacArthur Fellow
http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/bpl.html

We would be glad to see CCs of any letters you send at [email protected] and to hear about any similar policies in place at libraries other than the BPL.

Please keep an eye on our DRM campaign area for future updates about this and other related issues.

Digital Restrictions Management and Treacherous Computing
http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/drm.html

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DRM is often written as “Digital Rights Management”, but this is misleading, since it refers to systems that are designed to take away and limit your rights. So, we suggest you use the term “Digital Restrictions Management” instead. We also suggest “Treacherous Computing” as a replacement for the misleading “Trusted Computing”.

* DefectiveByDesign.org, FSF campaign to eliminate DRM
* Opposing Digital Rights Mismanagement, an interview of Richard Stallman by BusinessWeek Online about DRM
* Boycott Blu-Ray
* Reaction to the DRM clause in GPLv3, blog entry by David “novalis” Turner
* Free software without the freedom?, blog entry by John Sullivan about DRM
* A letter to the Boston Public Library from Richard Stallman condemning their use of DRM for public library audio books. You can help by sending your own letter to gref at bpl dot org, and by finding out if something similar is going on at your own local library. Please let us know if there is, and CC us on any letters you send at .

Other sites of interest

Trusted Computing: An Animated Short Story
by Benjamin Stephen and Lutz Vogel
www.no1984.org
An Italian community against Treacherous Computing

Recent history

* 4565 people signed this pledge to refuse music CDs that use DRM. The pledge ended 2006 February 06.
http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/drm.html

Question…
a.
Around the web what links are there that have some audiobooks?… not needing people to install more than what they would usually have already.

b.
What web links list all or a lot of the audiobook resources around the web?… not needing people to install more than what they would usually have already.

Jessamyn

Many thanks for the reference to Classic Poetry Aloud. My own experience in producing free readings of out-of-copyright poetry shows a definite demand for this medium. I am constantly amazed and delighted by the positive feedback I receive from subscribers to the service from around the world, and by their rapidly increasing numbers.

Interestingly, although iTunes continues to be the dominant medium for playing the sound files, my stats show that more and more users are choosing to access the files not through an iPod, but via their computer or through a non-Apple player.

Best of luck with your blog. I continue to be an enthusiastic user of my local library here in London - but not always by visiting. Often I access the catalogue and order a book from home, over the internet.

Classic Poetry Aloud

In regard to burning eaudiobooks to cd, then ripping them back so they are playable on the iPod….

Technically, sure. (And someone above already pointed out licensing restrictions that may exist.) But realistically, I can get just over an hour of book time onto a cd and, frankly, I don’t want to burn 10 cd’s and then rip them all back and then put them on my portable device. It’s an inconvenience and I’m certain I wouldn’t go to the trouble to do it. I’m more likely to visit Audible.com and buy it.

Fortunately for me, I’m not an iPod owner. I prefer my Creative player. However, there are many iPod users visiting libraries in my area that would like to play books on them. Interestingly, though, at one local library, they’ve had a number of users simply say, “well, I own more than one iPod, I might as well go buy a cheap player for books, too.” Interesting.

@GinaP: I recently bought a MuVO for exactly this reason, after several years of looking for a player that suited my uses. My husband owns a Shuffle and it drives him crazy.

We can’t support the cost overhead of Overdrive , but because of our wonderful statewide reciprocal program, a lot of our patrons have accounts at Denver and download from them. We’ve heard a lot of these same complaints and have just started putting together a companion brochure to the free-music FAQ brochure that we put out at the beginning of the summer. That brochure has drummed up a lot of interest in indie music among a teen crowd whose tastes had been pretty limited to Walmart’s top 10 CDs, so I have high hopes.

I have done the burn-to-CD-and-import thing exactly once. It’s about as threatening to DRM as thinking people are going to photocopy entire books. Even with access to a free photocopier, you just wouldn’t want to. So I think the burn-to-CD loophole is just enough to appease the diehards but is no real threat to DRM.

The DRM issue also has to do with the economy of writing (or at least modern publishing). I think it’s great that we have a public domain, and that many writers contribute free work. I’d like to be able to sustain all of my writing through road shows and big concerts. ;-) But for a significant number of participants in the writing economy, the traditional model (someone produces a work product, and someone else pays for it) drives some of the decisions that result in Overdrive being forced to use DRM-based devices. (Apple is no stranger to DRM, of course, as anyone who has bought anything through iTunes knows.)

I’m not sure complex explanations work with patrons. It’s not that people are stupid, but they are busy and focused on what they came to the library to do, which is reading/listening, not on wrangling publisher agreements or worrying about device dependency. I think “this is about as messy as VHS versus Beta” might work for older patrons. “Evolving technology” is another good one. Overdrive is the most innocent of all participants: it’s looking to maintain a viable service that real publishers will use. Apple versus Windows… well, at that point you can say “they’re both out to make a buck” and point out, “In ten years, everything will be different.” ;-)

The other issue here is that Overdrive is incompatible with Macs, too. My library (where I work AND where I’m a patron) went with Overdrive, and it’s a service I can’t use except on my work computer (which has other issues). So, this service automatically excludes a portion of the user population. (I’m sure the demographics of Mac users versus PC users varies depending on where you are, so, granted, it might be a small portion of your users.) So, to use Overdrive, I would have to buy an mp3 player that is incompatible with my own equipment, and reserve PC time to download an audiobook. Which isn’t going to happen. Just another thing to consider…

I am the writer behind Aldo on Audiobooks, which is a resource for people who want to listen to audiobooks, particularly on iPods (and now the iPhone). The most popular article I’ve written are instructions for how to import audiobooks into iTunes from standard Audio CDs.

I get a lot of follow-up questions from people who read the site, and one of the top questions is about the various downloadable audiobooks from libraries. And although the detail are messy and complicated (as noted by others above), my advice to people is simple: Ask your local library to spend its money on audiobooks on standard Audio CDs, instead of downloadable versions that don’t work for a significant percentage of library patrons.

Libraries and librarians want to be helpful and relevant to their patrons and communities. That’s why they’re experimenting with the various downloadable formats. There are a few benefits of downloadable versions, primarily accessibility for people who can’t come to the library, and eliminating the risks of physical damage to or loss of the asset. These would be terrific advances for libraries and patrons.

But the devil is in the details, and current implementations of downloadable audiobooks, at least in expiring, library-style time limited loan formats, just have too many problems to consider them a solution. I think it’s good to experiment with them, but with the understanding that it shouldn’t come at the expense of acquiring audiobooks in Audio CD format, which are compatible with a far more broad range of playback devices.

I’m going to play a little bit of devil’s advocate here and point out that with every shift in technology there is a significant portion of the patron population that doesn’t want us to change formats because they cannot yet use that format. We still purchase some audiobooks in cassette tape format for those with vision difficulties (MUCH easier for them to use than CDs) and those with car tape players. Obviously the trick is to make sure your overall choices are meeting the needs of your patrons while still trying new things.

To be honest, we’ve gotten some very positive feedback from having downloadable audiobooks (Overdrive and Netlibrary), and I don’t necessarily think it’s fair to hold that portion of our patrons back by not offering any. It’s like anything else–moderation and making sure you’re meeting the needs of your patrons should be your goals.

That said, this has been a fantastic discussion. I’m definitely adding another page to our eaudiobook handouts to flesh out the answer to “Will these work with my mp3 player?” Now I can direct iPod users to some resources that will.

I just want to second Kim Leeder’s comment that the best thing we can do for iPod owners is to loan them a cheap MP3 player to use with their OverDrive books. My state library runs the library service for the blind in Oregon and we participate in Unabridged, a multi-state, OverDrive-based downloadable audiobook service for blind and print-disabled readers. We now offer all our users an MP3 player. You can get them now for well under $50 each and they work great with OverDrive. Of course you can’t be a Mac user, but most of our users are not.

Worth noting that in my experience patron’s don’t liked to be steered to a “lesser” service. One of the problems we have with our NetLibrary subscription is that we don’t have very many bestselling authors, which upsets people.

I agree with you, however, that we ought to use the chance to educate. Also worth posting is links to some NPR or other good podcasts that would appeal to library users.