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I have long wondered how to categorize my writing. This article gave me much needed insight therefore giving me a little more focus but more importantly inspired me to not worry about it, keep writing and let my publisher decide. Thanks ladies!

Thanks for this interview. As I begin the agent search, I have been very confused about the lines between chick lit/women's fiction/literary fiction. I am glad there is some grey in between.

avinn888-

By all means keep writing, and write the best story you can, but when it's time to query agents, do your homework and let them know that you understand the distinctions between this genre. They want to make sure you understand the market rather than your leaving it all up to them. Agents are looking for authors who will actively participate in making their book a success!

This discussion is timely, as I'm trying to figure out how to classify my project. I'm editing my grandfather's diaries from the Russo-Japanese War, during which period he was sentenced to death 4 times (this forms the spine of the book). He was also involved in a plot to assassinate the czar, as well as other underground activities. I would never call it a "memoir" because my grandfather is dead and I can't ask him questions, plus I'm editing it, which not only involves shortening it but will require my writing a new opening chapter (in his voice) that will contain the relevant information presented during the first 5 chapters.

I suppose this is what is known as "Narrative NonFiction," or "Creative Nonfiction," but when I've walked into a bookstore to ask where that section is located, I end up having to explain all of the above and then often get directed to "Memoirs," or "History." (I should see where In Cold Blood in shelved, but that has become so mainstream it might even be shelved in Fiction). What do you think?

A cat named Donny Most? As in Happy Days?
That's too funny. I love it.

[email protected]

Bryna-

First of all, WOW! Your project sounds fascinating. Second of all, WOW! I can see where you'd have difficulty placing it. Creative nonfiction can cross over several genres, including memoir and personal essay, but your project sounds like historical memoir. Is there such a category? I don't know -- it's possible I just made it up. But if you're querying agents (and the good thing about nonfiction is that you can submit a proposal w/out having completed the manuscript), that might be the way to go.

Best of luck with it!

:)

LuAnn, that's pretty much the reaction everyone in the book has. I love it too. In fact, I would so want that cat.

If I could just make two minor clarifications. I never grew up in New York City, but rather the Long Island suburbs. It's true that Long Islanders call Manhattan and the five boroughs "the city", or they call them and Long Island "New York" and the rest of New York "Upstate", as if that's its name, but Long Island was always my home turf.

Also, I sucked at gossip while I was a manicurist and gave it up rather early -- found other conversations much more productive, as did my clients. (Although those were the OJ Simpson and Amy Fisher days, and those topics were inescapable. Man, I just outed my age, huh...)

:)

I'm drawn to books for so many reasons. I love books set in the NY metro area and even more books by authors from that area, since I grew up on Long Island too.

I love women's fiction (and chick-lit).

I'm intrigued by all the locales mentioned, and wondering how Elisa is able to weave her plot across those settings.

Ordinary World sounds like an interesting read.

Hi Patricia-

*Faking It* opens with Andi recently moving back to NY after having spent years in MA. Add her daily commute and suddenly I had multiple locations to work with. Most of Faking It takes place in Manhattan, while Ordinary World took place mostly in the Boston area.

The plot kind of weaved itself, I think. There's a lot of commuting and movement from place to place, but not in a way that makes the reader feel disoriented. It worked out really well, actually, because it allowed the characters to figure out where they really belonged.

I don't know if I answered your question, but I hope you'll pick up the books! Faking It especially pays homage to a lot of locales on Long Island. :)

Melissa Sarno, thanks for your comment, and good luck with your writing!

Bring it on!

I read, and reviewed, a book this year, I think, which I believe was categorized as Women's Fiction and I enjoyed it very much. It was about a stay-at-home dad.

MAN OF THE HOUSE

Forget the author's name.

Ah, and here is a problem. That of labeling. I am shopping a novel with a strong female character, deep emotions, a murder, a solution, a child who has second sight, a child who is a computer geek. How the heck do I "label" this? I call it a novel. What about you?

It's a bit sad really that we still have these segregations in literature (and life as well really) that have been so compartmentalised and well-defined as to become doctrine in themselves. Men and Women are different in the same way a fireman and a chemist are. Live with it and stop making it an institution of division.

What next? Are we going to have a counterstrike of Male fiction? Books cunningly designed so that when any women opens it, the words instantly morph into helpful recipes of what she should be cooking for dinner?

I agree with you, Jessica - I think women's fiction is broader than the gender of the protagonist!

I think a book like this sounds really interesting.

Anon - 9:06 - I've met many men, who although they possess a sex drive, have other qualities as well. Men are more complex than some men like to admit.

The 'labeling' and 'segregations' didn't start because some Evil Genius wanted to hobble book sales. They started to help readers find books they'd like--and to help writers and publishers find those readers. Certain readers like 'women's fiction'. That's probably an unfortunate label, because while most of those readers are women, undoubtedly some of them are men. But the problem is with that specific label, not labeling in general.

Betsy: Are the murder and the second-sight central to the plot? Then maybe you have paranormal mystery. Are the MC and emotional journal more central? Women's fiction. Where do the readers who enjoy that sorta book spent most of their bookstore time?

Mira: Yes, I was speaking just a tad hyperbolically. Men are of course more than -just- pigs. But we're that, too! Maybe not if you only see our actions--but if you could hear our thoughts, as we can with main characters...

Piggy

Mira, your response to anon 9:06 is right on target. I've also discovered that a lot of men are romance fans. Who'd a thunk it?

Kate - yes! I've met men who like romance, but they confess it in deep secret and carry the books around in brown paper sacks. :)

'Piggy' - I'll tell you a little secret. If you could hear women's thoughts, you'd hear just about the same things you hear with men's. We just don't admit it as much.

That -is- a well-kept secret, Mira! Apparently you don't even admit the truth in non-romance novels. Where's the equivalent of an Updike or Roth, or even an Ian Fleming? (Well, there's Laurel Hamilton in her later books ...)

Obviously, we can't know what anyone but ourselves think. But I'd be shocked if women and men have more-or-less equivalent sexual fantasies--either in content or frequency. And I think the porn (and erotica) industry would back me up in this.

I'm not saying, of course, that many women don't have fantasies similar to those of many men (and when talking about large groups, one must generalize: some women blow some men outta the water with this stuff), but denying the _general_ difference strikes me as a recipe for an poorly-drawn main character. I know that I'm sometimes put off by a male MC who lacks the, erm, penetrative urge. Yes, there's much more to us than that. And yet it's pretty central. It's fine to write around that tendency, to write a man who is uncommon in this way, but I think ignoring it entirely is dangerous for a writer.

Okay, I have this book about a woman who was reincarnated as a dog...

This is the best definition of Woman's fiction I've ever seen.

Betsy Ashton, paranormal suspense.

Anita Shreve's novel, All He Ever Wanted, is written from the male POV and it's fabulous. Plenty of testosterone, plenty of obsessive romance too, also some very base introspection from the protagonist.

'Piggy' - well, it strikes me that we're drifting off topic, so I hope this is okay with Jessica.

I think you're right in terms of content. I think women and men conceptualize it differently. Men are more visual, while women are more auditory. So men may focus on body parts, while women focus on what is spoken. Also, men are more focused on the physical contact; women on the relational contact.

These are generalizations - not every man or woman is the same.

As for frequency, I think you're wrong. You used the porn industry as an example. Women have their own form of porn. It's not pictures, it's stories of relationship and what is said between partners. It is also, very much, about sex. Some women go through several books a week. It's called: romance.

I am going to try very hard not to be offensive in this comment.

First of all major pet peeve is when women authors write from what they presume is a male's perspective and it ends up sounding more like a butch woman.

It can be done but its hard and you have to fight to suppress your natural inclinations. I read a novel recently, written by a woman from a male pov. It was good until he suddenly discovered deep feelings in his 'heart of hearts'. No man would ever say this...or think it. And if he did then in his heart of hearts...he is a woman.

I don't think as a woman you should attempt to write from a male point of view unless you actually know some men.

Wow, writing a male character well as a woman--that's going to be a challenge. I'd be interested to read it just to see if you can do it well.

I hope the hosts don't mind an off topic comment. But I don't think that "men are pigs" or "men think of sex constantly" is the way men (in general) are in real life or in fiction. I think that is a Hollywoodization, where it seems like every movie now has the requisite sex scene. Quite frankly, I think there's a time for sex-think ;-) and there is a time for everything else. Just think about the men around you, in your work place, at home, at their various ages, etc, and it's pretty obvious sex-drive thoughts are not at forefront constantly. And personally? My tastes in fiction lean toward men (and women too) actually doing and thinking about things other than sex. But of course, to each their own.

Jodi

Nicholas Sparks writes a lot of his novels with a male POV and he's the master of tugging at heart strings. So I'm assuming since more women read his work then men...it's women's fiction?

Richard Paul Evans also writes mostly from a male POV. Most of his fans are women.

Don't we all write from both POV's? Not all of our characters are are same gender, even if the MC is. You still have to know how both men or a women will respond in your story.

Thanks anon at 9:06 -- I write YA and have been working on a book with a teenage boy as the main character. I grew up with three brothers who were also pigs.

Also, I remember in my very early twenties a really close male friend of mine, saying, "You don't understand men. We think about sex twenty-four seven. The only reason I haven't tried to F you is because you're friends with my girlfriend."

An eye-opener, that one. Ha!

Anon 9:56 (aka Piggy)

I think you make some excellent points. Labels are to help us in bookstores. Can you imagine browsing through everything alphabetically? That would mean all architecture books mixed in with romance with parenting with gambling with mystery, etc.

One point I do want to make is that women's fiction is really a category labeled as such by editors, agents and writers. We use it to help explain the type of fiction we're looking for specifically. It's the same with action adventure fiction. These are not categories readers typically know about or find in bookstores.

--jhf

I recently read a book that I would characterize (roughly) as "women's fiction" in which the protagonist was a man. While I started off enjoying the book, the man's uber-sensitivity gave way in my mind to wussiness and I just skimmed to the end. I disagree that all men are pigs -- I'm not -- though I suppose if checking out women's breasts (a sort of involuntary reflex with us) is the definition of swinehood, then I must admit to belonging to the porcine fraternity.

In any event, I think some women authors write convincingly about men and vice-versa. It's more of a challenge but that makes it more fun.

www.thebiglitowski.blogspot.com

Kim tweeted yesterday about not using "chick lit" in a query. Janet Reid confirmed my view that women's fiction is the proper terminology. It all comes down to marketing, really. How are we as writers going to "sell" our work to agents? How are they going to sell it to editors? How are editors going to sell/pitch it to their companies? If your target audience is women, no matter who or what (animal, for example) the main character is, then it's women's fiction. It may be more specific than that (mystery, romance, etc) but a male protag written with a women's audience in mind is women's fiction.

While I agree that all too often, male characters written by women "lack testosterone" I'd like to point out that if you have eight important male characters plus another nine who appear moderately often, "testosterone" alone isn't very helpful when trying to make all of them seem like different characters. ;o)

For female authors, there is always the "dream-boyfriend" trap when writing male characters. I had such a character in a first draft of a fantasy novel (love interest of my female protagonist), and male beta readers called him a wimp. Some were able to point out why, e.g. that he didn't seem to have a goal of his own. Several things helped me fix it.

-- Revising his entire backstory to get his motivations right and make sure he has some goals in life apart from "falling in love with the female lead and helping her survive."

-- Comparing the character to male archetypes (as defined in "Heroes & Heroines" by Cowden, LaFever, Viders), I found he was a mix of 3 of the 8 archetypes presented there. While I don't use archetypes to create characters, it was obvious that this character wasn't well defined. Readers need something to recognize in a character, to understand how he ticks, what "kind of guy" he is.

-- Also, my character was too understanding. He agreed with the female prot far too often, or if he disagreed, then she usually turned out to be right. Argh! During revision, I found it really hard to have him disagree and be right! It felt like he was contradicting me, the author, and put me in the wrong -- as I was identifying more with the female pov-character.

(to be cont.)

-- I also noticed that SHE was generally having all the good ideas, so I had to distribute the good ideas more evenly among the two of them, or at least have something he says be the much-needed inspiration for her brilliant idea. (This might not be a danger if he were the protagonist.) She also took the initiative in most scenes with him just tagging along. Argh!

-- Use "gender-neutral" description for his mannerisms, gestures, etc. One example, in a situation where she is hurt (or pouting), he might say something to her. Don't write "...," he said softly. That's interpreting his feelings from a female "wishful thinking" perspective. Say what a neutral witness would hear and leave the interpretation to the reader, like: "...," he said quietly. A female reader can interpret "quietly" as speaking in a soft voice and think he's trying to comfort her, a male reader could interpret it as: he needs to be calm because she's already in a huff and he's desperately trying to make her see sense and stop her irrational behavior.

-- Cut back on the emotion and thoughts. I write a very intimate third-person female pov where everything is described as she sees it, but some scenes are written from (different) male povs, and including less of what they are thinking and feeling is a simple first measure to make it sounds more like a man.

-- I made the world in which the characters live in tougher. There are more scenes now in which the male character can show his strengths and help the female protagonist. (She's tough herself, but not so much in a physical sense.) In these situations, he takes over and tells her what to do, and she trusts his judgment and just does it.

Of course, despite all that, he's still a dream boyfriend. ;o)

P.S. Another thing I notice as a reader (somewhat harder to diagnose in one's own writing): male characters written be female authors understand the female characters too well. They guess her mood, empathize, instinctively react in a way to make her feel better, etc. But it's not so hard to show him completly baffled by her rapid change of mood, say, or completely misinterpret a situation/her words or wishes. Conversations where both of them completely miss the other's point are actually a lot of fun to write.

Sorry for the long post. I've been lurking for a couple of months. Great blog! Thanks for all the good advice.

Cheers,

Anja

Ooooh. Women's fiction "tugs on the heartstrings". That's a really handy and succinct explanation for why I hate it. Always wondered; thanks!

Thanks Jessica! Your post helped clarify some of my women's fiction questions. I appreciate it.

Elaine

Kinda makes one wonder what genres -aren't- women's fiction.

Other than 'men's adventure', I mean.

I have a problem with genres, Jessica, in that I feel my work is women's fiction but my agent, excitingly, has teased it into crime thriller.

The book is based on life on a notorious social housing estate and gives an insight into what it's like to live there, the women, their problems, their down and out lives etc.

Whereas Queen Martina Cole writes sagas about women being on top of their criminal gains, or about the violence the men commit on each other in the name of business, I write about women suffering 'their lot' until they've had enough and begin to change their lives. So the books are full of tears, friendships and laughter that you'd find in women's fiction, but in amidst such harrowing subjects as domestic violence, muggings, self harm, infidelity, petty crimes and the odd murder to solve. I call it behind doors crime -these things could be happening to any of us really.

The book is primarily about a housing officer, how she copes with the highs and lows of her job, how she sometimes gives too much, how she cares about people enough to make them want more out of their lives, whilst also battling and overcoming her own demons.

Crime thrillers to me are detectives solving murder cases. Crime novels AKA Martina Cole are people causing the violence, if that makes sense. My books are about the women on the estate and how they survive, the community spirit. They also have a happy feel good factor ending, which most crime novels don't.

See why I'm stuck? They are both such huge genres. ButI'm happy to listen to my agent and sell the book in whatever genre it fits best. I just don't see myself as a crime thriller writer.

Mel

Your post only confirmed to me what I see in the book store. Women's titles are everywhere!

My question is, will it hurt you to reference a chick lit classic when describing your book's audience in a query?

The best definition of women's fiction I ever heard was during an agent panel at a writers' conference: "Women's fiction is fiction men won't read." I don't know if that helps writers figure out if they've got women's fiction or not, but it was the only definition that all the agents AND the conference attendees agreed on!

Ooo, what happy news for me. My WIP's a Friday Night Ya-Ya Diary. Really.

Thanks for a very informative post.

I attended a conference last year and while I couldn't have a pitch session with an agent because my WIP wasn't finished, I found time to speak with a couple agents over a meal and gave them several premises for novels I've written (in various stages of revision) and my current WIP's premise and then asked, "What genre do I write?" Both agents answered "Women's Fiction."

This proved to be so helpful. I thought this might be a helpful suggestion for others.

Word Verification -- muddl -- we do tend to muddle through the publication process.

Thank you for this blog. I had a hard time for a while...I called what I wrote women's fiction. It wasn't until later on that someone said, "this is romance". I started pondering the actual definition of both genres...while women's fiction does not always end with the happily ever after, romance must. In my agent research, almost always, an agent who accepts women's fiction also accepts romance.

What about a romance involving angels. (Think City of Angels)
Is that a paranormal romance? I always associate paranormal with vampires and werewolves but does it cover angels too?

As my name suggests, I digest anything remotely Chick Lit - but my labelling of the genre may be different to others'.
The most recent chick lit offerings (by Adele Parks, Holly McQueen, Bernadette Strachan etc) are more than the traditional stereotype of comfort food for the brain

So why is chick lit taboo today? Was it merely played out?

I have a question for anyone who can help me. Is the last Twilight book when she has the baby still considered YA. At what point does it cross the line? My MC just about gets married but doesn't. I think it should be YA, but it really almost crosses over IMO because of the near marriage, but if Breaking Dawn doesn't then mine definitely does not. I am having a rough time deciding the genre.

Yet another great post, Jessica. Thank you always for being a lighthouse in this foggy sea.

--Chiron O'Keefe
The Write Soul: www.chironokeefe.blogspot.com

"Women’s fiction is a strong and growing market and I don’t see that changing, ever." Thank the heavens above!;-)

I figure I'll write what I write and then let someone stick whatever label they want onto it: women's, southern, general, (never the label 'literary' oh dear me!) etc etc etc etc....and lucky me, although it is marketed to appeal to women, some men are enjoying it as well...*shrug*

Informative post; thank you!

Thanks. An interesting post. Nice not to be stuck in the pigeon hole.

Does anybody know what percentage of women's fiction and romance novels are written by men using pseudonyms? I vaguely recall [about 25] years ago that about 1/3 to 1/2 the romances on the stands were written by males. Is that still true?

This is so valuable to me, since I'm looking for my personal niche. Women's fiction seems to fit the bill quite nicely.

Chick lit was played out, but I also think too many books were published for the size of the market and there was too much similarity between the books. In other words, many of the stories remained the same. It won't hurt to reference a classic, but keep in mind that book was sold to a publisher quite a few years ago. You might be better off just selling your own book on its merits.

A romance involving angels is paranormal romance.

As for L-Plate's problem, I think it's less important what the book is called and more important which editors are being targeted. And if you trust your agent that's all you can do.

--jhf

Womens fiction is very elastic and I've seen it cross lines, but I like your thought of writing something that warms the heart.

I've heard the term, of late, for hen lit. Good lord, but I've heard the term more than once. Is there such a thing? One author tried to explain the difference to me, chick was young urban women and hen was for forty something women. to me it's still womens fiction. Just curious about your take on it

This is sad to me. I absolutely love chic lit. I admit I like to see substance in books, but I really love a good story told with humor. It's also what I like to write.

But maybe that's just me. I mean, after spending my day trying to work on the next chapter of my book while six children scream in the other room, the last thing I want to do is lay down and read a serious book. I need lightheartedness and laughter at the end of my day to counteract the stress and chaos.

I think this is a GREAT discussion! Thanks!

To Anon re: The Twilight Series:

My understanding of YA fiction is that it originally was for late teens through twenties.

But things seem to be changing.

What I think is right on that I have noticed, is that adult women are reading YA like crazy.

In YA, there is the romance where if it contains sex scenes, they are more delicate and/or tasteful aspect.

This also brings in a lot of romance readers who just cannot go to the "bodice ripper" romances.

In the YA, they can finally get all the thrill of romance without the guilt or embarrassment. (The professional woman just may not be able to handle being associated with those romances, while they may feel hip or in touch with their daughters, etc. with a copy of Twilight.)

Part of the appeal, too, I think, is that the romance part, the very juicy aspect, that is painted as the "seventeen year old female" protagonist is also being written by a juicy full grown 35 year old grown up woman.

-Another Anon

Replace the middle paragraph with EE's and I'd say you're good to go. Unless, of course, this is meant to be serious. It doesn't seem like that to me though with the title and how the query is worded.

Sounds like quite the romp and a fun read. Your voice is coming through the query. Good job overall.

A mom who's dying and seems to be off her rocker decides, in her final act, to kill the shrewish wife of her grown Fetal Alcohol Syndrome son and enlists the help of her seemingly sane daughter.

I sure hope this is a comedy.

What's the daughter's motivation?

Agreement! This has a very fun tone and the plot is wicked good too! Take EE's advice and note that your query falls just below not one, but two, "success story" entries. Good Luck!

Meri

Ditto, this seems like it could be a real hoot. I hope it is indeed funny. :-)

If they shoot this wife, what's to stop the brother hooking up with someone just as bad? or worse? How does killing her solve the fundamental problem of the brother's too-trustingness?

Welcome to SFG! I like your panda, and I had a chance to check out your site. Nice work. I too went to SCAD, I just got my MFA in animation this August. Nice to meet you. :)

that panda is just so funny...seems like he is listenig to some 80s music...LOL!