I suspect the topic of plagiarism or idea theft is common among authors, especially in this day of computers and scanners, but how common is it and how much should authors be concerned about it?
I have to admit, I think at times I’m a bit of a Pollyanna (although I prefer to call it optimism). I really like to think the best of people, especially those who call themselves professionals (you would think in this age of Bernie Madoff I would learn). More than that though, I suspect when it comes to agents and publishers, few have the time or the inclination to steal an idea if the project submitted is good enough on its own (and I’ve certainly blogged about this before). But what about authors? Can you trust your critique group or the contests you’re submitting to? I know there are horror stories out there, there are always horror stories, but how often does it really happen and how much do you have to worry about it?
The reason I’m writing about this today is because one of you wants to know specifically about contests: “Recently, I sent in the first chapter of my newest project, something out of my norm, and my crit partners were wild about it. When I told them I planned to enter it in a few contests, several of them were vehement that I not. When I asked why (our typical use for the contests is to get a read on what people think), they were concerned that the idea – the spin – was something new and different, and putting it out there for contests would leave it open to idea stealing.”
Here’s the catch: an idea is not copyrightable, so yes, someone could steal your idea, but what really matters in the end is the execution. If your idea is brilliant, but you aren’t able to execute it as brilliantly, it’s not brilliant. Does that give others permission to steal the idea? Certainly not, and I would never condone stealing someone’s idea. What I do want to do instead though is challenge you to actually define “idea” when it comes to your book. Is the idea simply that you are writing a fantasy featuring elves or is it the entire breakdown of the story? For example, I know for a fact that there are or have been three knitting mystery series published. Does the simple fact that they are knitting mysteries make that an idea that’s now stolen or is it how the knitting mystery plays out that’s really the idea? Does the idea also include the setting and the characters? The reason I ask these questions is because frequently I’ll hear authors complain that someone else has stolen their idea when the idea is really a simple one-sentence description, and I truly believe that the idea or success is what you do with that description, not the description itself. Let’s take Harry Potter, for example: the idea of Harry Potter (in my mind) is an orphan boy who learns he’s a wizard and is sent to wizard boarding school. It’s the execution of the idea that makes it Harry Potter and not just another paranormal YA.
Okay, I severely digressed and maybe oversimplified. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think you need to worry about ideas being stolen. Instead I think you need to focus on making the execution of your idea more brilliant than anyone else could ever make their execution. And as for whether or not you need to worry about contests, I think that’s a personal decision. I’ve never heard of anyone stealing ideas from contests, but I don’t know that I necessarily would hear of that. Certainly the more people you show your work to the greater the likelihood that it could be stolen. Frankly though, I think it’s unlikely.
Jessica
My question to you is regarding the safety of a nonfiction book proposal. I have heard of situations when a proposal is turned down because the platform is not as strong as one would like (perhaps no previous publication or degrees, but written by a writer with valid experience and a website with 50,000 hits/year) and then the publisher approaches an in-house writer or subject matter expert to write a book based on the idea because of its marketing potential.
There’s no doubt that since the beginning of publishing time authors have been fearful of publishers stealing their ideas, and certainly last year’s lawsuit between authors Jessica Seinfeld and Missy Chase Lapine only perpetuated this fear. But the question is, do publishers really do this?
And since I’ve always been as honest with you as possible I’m going to tell you that no, publishers do not steal ideas . . . sort of. Okay, before you freak out, let me explain.
I haven’t been following the case of Lapine v. Seinfeld lately, but my understanding is that Lapine is accusing Harper of basically taking the book proposal she submitted to them and turning it over to Seinfeld, whom they thought would be a better author. I just don’t buy that. Never once, in all my years of publishing, have I ever seen or heard of an editor stealing a proposal and passing it to another author to rip off. Does that mean it’s never happened? While certainly I can’t say it’s never happened in the history of publishing, frankly it doesn’t make sense. Lapine didn’t have outstanding credentials, but she did have credentials (although not a huge platform) and Seinfeld had no credentials at all, she’s just married to one of the most famous comedians of our time. If Harper was going to steal a book to pass to Seinfeld, why would they chose that one? It’s just ludicrous.
Most important, though, and outside of that particular case, if a book has that much merit, the idea is that brilliant, and the proposal is that well done, a publisher is going to try to make it work with that author. It’s in their best interest to do so. By the time they steal the idea, find an author to write it and publish it, someone else will have already snapped up the book and published it themselves. At this point Crook Publisher is already late to the dance, so to speak, and probably with an inferior project. If the publisher feels the author needs better or stronger credentials or a better platform, they certainly can suggest ways to make that happen. They could bring in a foreword writer with the credentials or even ask the original writer if she might be willing to work with someone with a platform or credentials. They can also help the author create a platform by setting up speaking events, and of course interviews with magazines, etc. The truth is that if the publisher likes the book that much they are going to offer to buy it. If the book is truly that great, the idea is that brilliant, and the execution is that perfect, and you have your platform, it’s not in the author, but in the book.
Now, is it possible that Seinfeld came to Harper with a cookbook idea and Harper didn’t see that as a possibility, but the editor instead suggested she write a book on sneaking vegetables into her child’s food? Absolutely. Is it possible the editor liked the idea Lapine submitted, but for whatever reason didn’t offer on the proposal and, remembering Lapine’s book suggested it to Seinfeld? Absolutely. Is that a punishable offense? Not at all. ***Please note that I have no information on how the book idea came about and personally I don't think the editor tried to rip of Lapine and give the story to Seinfeld. I'm just using this as a hypothesis and no one should think this is fact.*** Ideas are not copyrightable and publishers, like authors, have every right to develop their ideas in whatever way works for them. I know, I know that sounds horrible. But hold up a minute. How else do you explain the number of military fiction thrillers a la Tom Clancy? At one point in time there were none. Until Tom Clancy, this style of book didn’t sell. Or how do you explain the vast number of baby name books on the market? At one point there were no baby name books. Then someone wrote one, someone published it, it was successful and everyone else jumped on the bandwagon. The truth is that “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,” and imitation happens in everything, it happens in publishing, it happens in TV, movies, art (look at the Impressionists), and it happens in business. Does that make it right? Yes and no.
We would certainly have a very limited number of books on the market if we couldn’t steal a little bit of idea here and a little bit there. Wouldn’t you be disappointed to learn that you no longer had a choice when looking for French cookbooks because Julia Child already had that idea and therefore Ina Garten’s Barefoot in Paris would be a rip-off and can’t be done? Or legal thrillers were assigned to John Grisham only and no one else could write that idea?
It takes a whole heck of a lot more than an idea to make a book and certainly more than just an idea to make a book successful. Fiction or nonfiction, the execution of the idea is far more important than the idea itself, and I’m reminded of that every single day when I’m reading through submissions. Daily, I receive nonfiction proposals for books with brilliant ideas and daily I reject them. Never have I rejected a fabulously executed project simply because of platform. In fact, this month I plan to go out with a new nonfiction submission where I have concerns about the author’s platform, but think the idea has such merit and is so well executed that I’m willing to take the chance. I also know that not just anyone can write this book. These authors have done their research and written a great proposal. They’ve executed something that not just anyone can do.
I have a feeling I’m going to get a lot of flack for this post and I’ve spent a lot more time than normal writing it in the hope that I explained myself properly. I don’t condone plagiarism in any way and I don’t condone thievery of proposals, outlines, or fully executed book plans. However, an idea is a very abstract thing and can be interpreted in many different ways, and it’s that interpretation that makes it unique. So don’t worry about the theft of an idea and don’t worry about the theft of your proposal. Instead concentrate on making your interpretation, your execution, uniquely you, and then there’s no way anyone can steal it (without plagiarizing, that is).
Jessica
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I can only speak from my experience, but I was on the contest circuit for about a year before I sold and I never heard of any ideas being stolen. At the same time, I received a lot of great advice on my various works-in-progress.
I know some unpubbed writers do worry about idea stealing. Some of them won't even talk about what they're working on when they sit at the bar at a conference. (Which blows my mind because I've actually got into informal brainstorm sessions at conference and the results have ended up in my books).
It seems to me that most other writers are more in love with their own ideas, as opposed to stealing anyone else's. As you get farther down the pike, you worry more about structuring an idea, how to sell it to your editor, the details of the story. In the end, that's what will set your book apart.
Jessica, I definitely agree with you. I think ideas are very hard to steal; maybe the overall concept, but the actual execution - well, you said it really well.
That seems true in fiction. But I am wondering if it's different for my non-fiction ideas. I think the market may only sustain a certain number of books on a particular topic....
Also, the humor idea that I have. I could see someone else running with it, and bascially cornering the market.
Not that my ideas are so incredible, but stil...
Anyway, I wouldn't want all of that to stop me from sharing ideas and benefiting from the exchange of feedback. I just wonder if it's different with non-fiction, as opposed to fiction. But with fiction, I think you're right - don't worry about it.
Interesting topic, Jessica. Thanks.
Screenwriters know that originality doesn't really exist.
There's a huge difference between plagiarism (outright stealing someone's story-- word for word, identical characters, etc) and then there's that having a similar story.
Nobody is original. Nothing is original. Everything is always taken from something else. For example, my lit fiction novel is sort of similar to CATCHER IN THE RYE-- a first narrative perspective of an angry brown girl. The only difference is, it's not set in NYC in the 50s with a white male narrator.
People need to stop worrying about their stories being stolen. Unless you're JK Rowling or Stephanie Meyers with a $1 million publishing contract.
There's an eye-opening thread about plagiarism on the How Publishing Really Works blog, here:
http://bit.ly/8iuri
I worry more about inadvertently using something I've read or seen in my own work. I recently finished a manuscript, had a relative read it, and was told, Hey, that's a lot like such and such. It turned out I had watched an Agatha Christie Poirot DVD months before beginning the ms and had incorporated some of the elements of the plot. The story and characters were different, the solution also different, but I'm wondering now if I should just abandon it. (Actually, I have. I've started to work on another novel instead).
I thought exactly the same thing, but apparently I'm in a minority. My story concept is a little off-the-wall and I was worried I'd taken it too far. I posted the opening scene on my MySpace blog to get some feedback. Almost instantly, I heard from friends who are published, best selling authors (you would know their names) who urged me to pull the scene. They said because the concept was original, I'd be risking someone stealing the idea if I left the scene up. I deleted the post, which was just as well since I've tweaked the scene since then anyway.
Even though my take is unusual, I know other authors have used elements of my idea in their stories, but each in a very different way. I'm not really worried about this, but it struck me odd that it was published authors who had the most concerns.
Angie, your voice is so strong that even if someone else wrote about demon slayers with talking dogs, they wouldn't be anything like your books.
And, far from hurting their sales by writing on the same topic, the authors of those knitting books have started a whole knit-lit craze. I don't even knit and I like those books, again because each of those authors writes in a strong, individual voice.
There are shelves of books copying Harry Potter, the DaVinci Code and Pride and Prejudice, but I doubt that any of those has hurt the sales of the original.
I guess "idea theft" is just one of those irrational fears that we can have when we are unfamiliar with an industry. I used to fear this too. Fear usually comes from the unknown.
I'm armed with a little more education and experience now so I'm only concerned with making my story as excellent as possible. That way (worst case scenario), if anybody did steal my "idea" then hopefully my execution of the story would stand out.
I wonder how broad the plagiarism definition is. What if you modeled the speech patterns (not the actual dialog) after a TV character in such a way that people might be able to say that it sounds like that character? Is that allowed? Is it frowned upon?
I'm pretty sure that the definition of 'idea thief' is 'novelist.'
Harry Potter is the perfect example. Virtually every single element is completely derivative: it's how they're combined and re-imagined that makes the 'idea theft' appropriate.
Or how about: vampires. Stolen, stolen, and stolen again. It's only because it was stolen -so often- that it hardly looks like theft any longer.
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=19148
Star Wars/Harry Potter Synopsis. Everything can sound the same if you think about it right.
This may sound a bit harsh, but I think it comes down to whether or not you're paranoid at heart. I'm with you, Jessica. I'm optimistic and I think people have good intentions. I never worry about someone stealing my ideas, after all, execution is everything. Even if someone stole an idea (not that ideas can be stolen, they exist in the communal ether), their book would be completely different from mine. We all need to relax and write. Worry is a complete waste of energy.;-)
I used to be really paranoid about others stealing my ideas--but that was when I was still a newbie at the whole business aspect of publishing.
Not that I'm anywhere near experienced now...:P Anyway, I don't worry about idea theft. Sure, there may be some slight apprehension every once in awhile, but nothing's original. It's all about the exection, like you said.
Taking this a step further, a question that has come up for me recently is where the line is drawn between taking a concept and running with it and plagiarism. I read about a Swedish author who wrote a European best seller the imagined J.D. Salinger's Holden Caulfield as elderly and dissolute (I haven't read the book, I'm trying to remember what the article said). Salinger took offense, cried plagiarism and apparently won a court case. As I understand it, the Swedish author's books have been pulled. I think the court case is being contested, but it made me wonder.
I had an idea for a book where one of the characters was the ghost of a fictional detective. It's not Sherlock Holmes, but I have read Laurie R. King's wonderful Mary Russell books, which imagine a life for Holmes beyond Conan Doyle's books. (In fact, King's books made me feel a fondness for Conan Doyle's character that I'd never previously felt.) Well, Conan Doyle is long dead and Holmes was fictional, so I assume he was fair game.
And certainly no one hesitates to base stories on Jane Austen's books or characters, or Shakespeare's plays. But what if the author has been dead less than 100 years? Less than fifty years? What rules apply?
I also wonder about the books that purport to continue a series, like Charles Osborne's "Agatha Christie" so-called "adaptations" -- Spider's Web, Black Coffee -- which are often (and mystifyingly to me) shelved under "Christie" rather than "Osborne."
Where are the lines drawn?
Execution is the key for common ideas, but if you truly have a unique idea it would stink to have someone beat you to the punch or have your idea flood the industry before you can get it out there.
A writing friend of mine and I have decided to take the same idea for a short story and write a short story based on that idea. I believe that we can take identical concepts, but her version will be completely different than mine.
Part of it will have to do with our respective world views and another part will be our divergent writing styles.
I agree that sometimes we can be too paranoid about people stealing our ideas.
Great topic, Jessica!
I was never worried about someone stealing my ideas or story until it actually happened to me. I had joined an online crit group where we swapped chapters back and forth. naother girl was working on a book that was nowhere near mine, and after a couple of weeks she decided to scrap her original book idea and do something different. Imagine my surprise when I got something that was almost identical to my opening chapter.
I was a little mad, not because the events so closely mirrored my own, but because the main character was described almost as identically as mine (my MC had a distinctive characteristic that the other author also used.) There was even a conversation that echoed one in my first three pages. The thing that made me the angriest is she had stolen my writing and rewritten it poorly. It bothered me enough that I quit submitting to the group.
So yes, it does happen, but I think it's more at the crit group level than at the contest or publisher/agent level. I just don't think those folks have the time to try and steal.
It seems like every good idea has more than one movie and more than one book coming out at once. (Don't they usually come in threes.) And then, if it's remotely related to tragedy, the Greeks probably invented it anyway.
I was just thinking about this over the weekend when an agent requested my full manscript. I got this vile thought in my head that it could be possible for someone to steal the whole concept of my book! And if that happened....what in Sam hell would I do?? So maybe I don't want to send them the whole manuscript just to be safe. I let a friend read the first 30 pages of my book...should I be worried?? My Mom told me to stop letting her read my book..she could make into her own...Man I'm so paranoid now.
Isn't that how trends happen? Writers like the ideas that are already out there in existing books and write them in unique ways. I think that just mentioning ideas to writers make them think differently, and adds to the writing climate at the time. I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing.
But to outright steal someone's idea, or pages, that's not cool.
I recently completed my second (unpublished) novel, and when a friend asked me what it was about, I launched into a brief description. She looked at me, wide-eyed, and said, "I don't want to rain on your parade, but that sounds like XYZ book by VeryFamousAuthor."
Having not read XYZ book, I rushed to the library and checked it out immediately, all the while thinking, "What have I done?!" As it turns out, there are some VERY loose commmon threads (okay, VeryFamousAuthor's threads are a lot more polished than mine, but I digress) in both stories, but other than the very general parallels, that's really it.
Presentation is everything, and I think that the urging to make your work the best representation of your idea is key. A weak representation of a strong idea is still...weak.
Reminds me of a quote by Howard Aiken, who said, "Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."
Thanks for the knowledge, everyone :)
I was planning to write on this very topic... but it seems you've stolen my idea. 8)
Knit-lit--I love it. :) I hadn't heard of it before, but it helps my novel. I began my novel in 2007 and it had a knitting group in it that helped to solve the suspense in the story, way before I even heard of other knitting novels.
Does that kill my novel? No way! It just opens the door to more readers who have found that they love that kind of story.
Jessica...
Think of it this way, the stealer is not stealing an IDEA, s/he is stealing the HOOK. Yes, it happened to me. (Where else, but Hollywood)!
Only a fool would steal word for word. That's obvious. But to cobb a HOOK and spin it in a completely different direction is perfectly acceptable, because... you cannot copyright an IDEA/HOOK. Synchronous development happens all the time. You'd be surprised how closed mouthed the H'wood professional writing community is. Hell, if they pitch to studio suits, (even if they were WGA Signatory) and are asked to leave behind a *beat sheet* or some kind of synopsis, (just a page or two as a reminder to the execs), you better believe, before they embarked on pitching they stopped by the WGA West and logged their leave-behind!
HOOKS, or IDEAS, are the coin of the realm in writing. Yes, sublime execution is a must, but once you have the central story gear, and an imagination coupled with writing skills, you're off to the races.
I was a member of an online community for 10 yrs. We'd talk once a week. One of the members was a N.Y. Times best seller and a produced screenwriter. Good Lord, girl, he wouldn't even tell ya what genre his next book was... or the working title! After 10 years, mind you.
Haste yee back ;-)
I don't really worry about idea theft, but I will say that there is no need to be overly loose with ideas and concepts in this business. I don't post story descriptions anywhere online for anything I haven't sold yet.
New writers always want feedback, of course, but to me, I think it's best to concentrate on the professional feedback--the agents, editors and publishers.
Agree with above who says it's the HOOK that gets stolen, not necessarily the story idea.
for example, what if it was 1989 and I had an idea for dinosaurs cloned back to life from mosquitos trapped in amber? Great hook, right? But it's entirely unlikely I or anyone else with the same hook would have written Jurrassic park as we know it.
Or, if in 2002 I had an idea for a secret sociaty guarding the true identity of Mary Magdelene for centuries, but one man follows a series of clues hidden in artwork to uncover the secret...
I doubt DB would have been pleased to see a book with that hook come out right before his, even though it wouldn't be The Da Vinci Code.
When you've got a fresh, high-concept hook, it's nice to think that you'll be the first to bring that out. And I think it's worth something in the marletplace to be first. I'm not talking about little *twists*, like "Well, mine's a paranormal vamp but the vamps are not immortal!" kind of thing, but truly innovative high concepts.
Salinger took offense, cried plagiarism and apparently won a court case.
Actually, Becke Davis, Salinger cried copyright infringement, which is not the same as plagiarism.
There was once a big argument among two people in one of my critique groups. One had described a color as the "pink of a blushing bride." And another later wrote something like, "the shirt was the red of an embarassed blush." The first accused the second of plagiarism, and when I jumped in and said it wasn't, that writer #2 could have even have used blushing-bride pink if she wanted to and it not be plagiarism, the woman freaked and said we were all stealing her work. Of course, it's not likely that no-one else has compared a color to flushed skin, but she seemed to think her play on words was completely original...
So, anyway, I'm inclined to think most plagiarism accusations are from egotistical writers who are out of touch with reality.
Haste Ye Back and anon 6:12are quite correct.
Anyone who doesn't believe plagiarism exists has not worked in Hollywood.
Just keep up with the news and you'll see that it does happen in publishing as well. And those are just the ones that came to light.
Yes, it happens a lot--I had a passage lifted out of a magazine essay I submitted and the editor edited into a different (published) article. When I mentioned it, she said it stuck in her head and she didn't mean to do it. While I believed her, I do think it may be unconscious much of the time.
Also had ideas stolen from crit groups. Hope agents are honest... As they say, imitation is flattery but not when it happens to you!
Thanks for the correction, Anonymous. I was trying to remember the details of the article I'd read, and got it wrong.
Wow, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that plagiarism occurs in publishing, but I am. Only because I know how much passion it takes to write a novel and how can you have passion for an idea that's not your own?
I agree with Jessica, that it all comes down to execution. Yes, as Haste yee back said, people do steal hooks, ideas, but where they take it from there could be far different from you.
Mostly, I'm not worried about plagiarism - I'm actually sending my MS out for a contest this week - but I am worried about someone "beating" me at the bookstore; i.e., publishing their similar themed mystery novel before mine.
Maybe I'm paranoid but I would also not want to share a unique high-concept idea in the early stages with a lot of stranges. Once the novel is actually written, it would be hard for someone to catch up with you right away so I'd feel more comfortable submitting to contests, etc. In fact, why submit chapters in the early stages anyway -- you're bound to change them.
I'm with Haste Yee back on this one.
I've had my hook stolen at editor level. Imagine my surprise when one of the key concepts from my fantasy novel turned up on a cover of one of the novels she had been editing?
Obviously my delivery wasn't up to scratch and she farmed the idea out to some unsuspecting author. Very unethical behaviour. I have asked my agent never to submit to that house again... at least until their senior editor gets moved on. And she will... these things eventually comes back to roost.
Fantasy is a hard field. Great hooks,images, ideas and concepts are worth protecting and must be protected. Sure, it is all in the delivery, but concept matters.
I can't speak for other genres, but in fantasy, yes, people, protect your work.
"Yes, as Haste yee back said, people do steal hooks, ideas, but where they take it from there could be far different from you."
Still, there's only room in the marketplace for so many of the same high concept ideas.
How many scripts of "a guy finds a tv remote and realizes he can use it to control event in his real life" can actually be produced? Um, I'd say one. Doesn't matter what kind of "twist" or spin you put on it, that kind of thing only needs to be made once.
The more high concept it is, the less you should blab about it until it's sold. Unfortunately, there ARE writers out there who are technically competent and able to write well if given that certain push into an idea...Let them come up with their own ideas.
It's true, high concept is where it's at, especially for those whose dreams fly with the eagles and whatnot...but you do have to be able to execute on that concept, high or not! A concept is just that, while a finished manuscript is a salable product.
But most of what's published isn't really high concept at all, it's just "a slight twist on the tried-and-true." SF & F, romace, mystery--they all use the same tropes, depending heavily on execution to wring a little extra mileage out of them.
So when a high concept does come along, sieze it, take care of it...and above all, EXECUTE on it before someone else does!
Minions, I have spoken.
Well, I have had my ideas "borrowed" (a friend and me talked about some cool detail and he incorporated it in a story years later).
The cool thing is that now the idea (more a gimmick really) has gained in my eyes. Eg if I wrote it now, I'd have the background of my friend's work and interpretation and would do something different, have another spin on it.
It's just like first vampire stories were just fairy-tales but as the culture built and built and built, every good vampire story became richer because this was a repeated idea. "The Collector" gained because it employed Shakespeare's idea of Prospero's island, and nobody's pouting because Shakespeare wrote the idea first.
So, basically, if somebody stole my idea, I'd say that the idea would just benefit from it, not lose.
I agree with leva that having other people write the same type of books you do can be a positive indication that people like what you're doing, or at least that you're writing a popular subject or style. But you don't want to find yourself chasing every latest fad. Ideally, yours comes out first, then the copycats follow and keep yours in the public eye that much longer.
If someone takes my unpubbed idea and makes it into a bestseller, I will shake their hand.
Every book is built upon another's idea, as you say, it's execution that makes the difference.