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I've never been parasailing but I think that it would be a cool thing to do. It's awesome that you had that adventure, Marley! :)

I never have--but I really want to!!

I've never been parasailing. I'd like to do it, but it's something that would terrify mu husband. But maybe it's something I would do solo.

That's an adventure I'd love to take! It must feel like being bird.

I've never been parasailing, but the view looks gorgeous!

Oh parasailing sounds like so much fun! I've seen people do it, and I want to do it too!

And I have to agree, the cover of never cry werewolf is gorgeous!


sara

Insane, no? Brave and utterly cool? Totally! Wow, Marley, I am way too chicken so you can live that dream for both of us!

I've never went parasailing, but my mom has.... But of course, she' the crazy one in our family! : ) Not that you're crazy or anything.... :o)

~GirlforChrist

Yes, I have gone parasailing before. It was in Kenora, Ontario and it was incredible!! I want to do it again!
wandanamgreb (at) gmail (dot) com

I've never been parasailing but I've seen people do it and I've wanted to so much!!

wow, parasailing! never did that, dont have the guts for it, too high brr! But you are really a power girl to take the dare to do it! thumbs up! : )

Marley -- I am so proud of all these cool things you are doing! Wow! It's awesome watching you bloom. ;)

I definitely don't think you're insane! I SO wanna go parasailing! And seeing your pics and hearing your story makes me wanna go even more! My sis, her friend and I are supposed to go sky diving at the end of this month for my b-day. Can't wait! Parasailing is next.

Parasailing sounds really cool! I want to try it at least once before I become too old LOL. =]

kate.readthisbook [at] gmail [dot] com

What a day. I'm beyond thrilled. I'm overjoyed. Love you firsts!

A totally wonderful post.
Teri

Fantastic post for an amazing day!! :)

Ditto all!

You are so creative, TLC! Happy Inauguration Day, Everyone!

James Earl Jones as the first African American actor to play a president...

http://www.slate.com/id/2202810/

But I preferred Morgan Freeman.

Thanks for sharing, I had fun reading these!

Excellent Post. I'm copying, pasting and printing it for someone who truly needs your help.

So if someone has submitted based on the MS Word word count, instead of the 250 words per page (which makes a huge difference), how would that factor in if you requested the work and it ended up being longer than originally thought?

Great post Jessica!

But when I was at a recent conference, the agent I pitched my book to said "70,000 words? Wow. And I guess you keep the reader interested that whole time."

I got the impression that she thought 70,000 words was quite long.

Thanks for this advice! I've seen lots of online forums try to tackle the word count issue...with lots of ambiguity and disagreement. What a great and concise explanation!

She might have thought the 70K was long for that genre. Was she under the impression that it was a short cozy mystery or a category romance?

Jessica-
I don't understand what you're saying about word count and Microsoft's word count and how that can mess a writer up. Even if you have 250 words on a page those 250 still have to add up to say 100,000 don't they? So what am I missing here?
Thanks!

The 70,000 was commercial fiction - women's fiction.

From AgentQuery.com

Obvious Assumption #2: When we talk about "word count," we mean the word count generated by your computer.
In MS Word, this feature is found under Tools---->Word Count. And yeah... we've heard all those crazy publishing urban legends about funky formulas for calculating manuscript word count. Our favorite? Multiplying the number of pages of your manuscript by "250"—the standard number of words on a printed book's page. Bunk. Are we still living in the typewriter age? We think not.

The 250 method is the most ARBITRARY way to calculate word count in existence. And here's an illustrative hypothetical to prove it:

You've got a 400-page novel, using Courier 12-point font. If you calculate word count based on the 250 method, your novel is 100,000 words (400 x 250).

However, if you use Courier 10-point font—for the same freaking novel—your novel shrinks to 350 pages, and so does your word count. Magically, you've reduced your novel's word count by 12,500 words (350 x 250 = 87,500 words).

Now, put that same novel in TNR 12-point font, and you'll shrink it even more: 325 pages. Same exact novel. Different word count of 81,250 words (325 x 250).

All we can say is, "Huh?" Based on how you format your manuscript, your word count changes?

The 250 method may be how publishers calculate word count, once they've perfectly typeset your manuscript with a proportional font to include 250 words per page. But heeeello?...agents aren't publishers or typesetters.

I've taken to including both the traditional 250 words/page count based on Courier New font AND computer count on my queries to agents and editors, unless I already know from posts like this one which count the editor or agent prefers. Harlequin is now going by computer count. Red Sage (one of my publishers for my pen name) uses computer count, but I've been told, for example, that a certain editor at Kensington uses trad word count, so if I'm subbing to her, that's the count I use. The two word counts vary widely! An 80K computer word count ms. could easily be above 100K counting the traditional way.

I like to write in TNR12 these days, so to figure out traditional word count, I just highlight the whole document and switch it to CN12. Velly simple.

Anon 1:17 PM,

If you have a page containing a lot of staccato dialogue, that page may have--say, only 100 words on it.

However, as far as printing costs go, one page is one page, regardless of how many words are on it. Books that are either too skinny or too fat are difficult to print.

Thus, using MS Word's count can give a misleading impression of how many actual pieces of paper will be needed in the printed book.

On the AgentQuery.com post...well, yes, you can change the "word" count by changing the type face if you use the 250/page estimate method, but it is also true that a MSWord 80,000 word story with lots of dialogue is much longer than a MSWord 80,000 word book with lots of dense paragraphs--longer, that is, in number of pages in the published book--and, as Jessica says, that affects production costs, size of cover spine, etc. Space does matter when you talk printing. (Though of course the publisher can also manipulate type size in printing the book.)

My books are contracted for 95,000 words. They usually come in somewhere around 400 pages--double spaced Courier New--and somewhere in the high 80s, low 90,000 MSWord count, because I have lots of dialogue.

I actually think, at least once you're contracted, you can go with whichever method works for you. I do page count because it helps me get a sense of where I am in the book, how much more I have to write to make the story fit the space.

I think when Harlequin went to Word word count, they dropped the numbers, didn't they? So the books are actually about the same size? I don't write for Harlequin, so I might be wrong about that.

Excellent info, Jessica. I linked to this at my site, Flogging the Quill.

Question about issues, though: what if the way a novel addresses contemporary social issues can be seen as a marketing advantage?

Ray

Thanks for the breakdown. Very useful.

Anonymous: I tried the different fonts on my ms. The word count all came back the same. Maybe my MS Word is supercharged.

This stuff makes my head hurt.

There has got to be an easier way.

The 250 words per page is based on Courier New 12 point font with 1 in margins.

It only works if you are looking at that font and size because Courier will average about that many words on a page if you just filled the page up with words.

If you type in TNR, again, you have to have your font size at 12 and instead of using 250 words per page, you have to use 350 words per page because TNR is a smaller font and averages 350 words on a page if you fill it all up.

You can't just mess with the font and have that up the estimated word count. It didn't work in high school when you had a 10 page report due, and it doesn't work here either.

It is simple, Keep your margins at one inch, keep your font size at 12.

If you type in Courier, multiply by 250. If you type in TNR, multiply by 350.

In other words, with the format "standard," you should be looking at 360-400 pages of Courier text for a 90-100K novel.

Ugh, this really is depressing. I know I'm going to go over the limit for most people. There aren't a lot of ways to cut the count without killing something vital later.

Thanks for the insight about rejections.

Word count is a tricky issue, especially when you write a story which straddles genres.

I always come in under word count due to a persistant delusion that my readers will all be telepathic and 'see' the story in their heads exactly as I do, making descriptions a frivolous addition to the story.

I thought that going over wasn't such a big deal because editors would just hack away at the manuscript anyways.

Sally & Chessie,
Thank you. I get it now--both of your posts were a big help!
One of the Anonymous Posters

Whether or not size matters has been a bone of contention with me since the first draft of my first novel weighed in at 222,000 words. Granted, it did need a lot of editing. I cut characters and subplots and finally got it down to a manageable size, but for a long time, I kept a list of debut novels that were well over the "preferred" word count. I can't pull it up at the moment, but I recall a few that headed the list were The Time Traveler's Wife at 155,255 words, Songs in Ordinary Time at a whopping 277,324 words, and a much smaller White Oleander at a mere 139,731 words. I believe they each sold a few million copies. I no longer worry about word count, and concentrate on telling the story the best I can.

I have to think the best method for query letters is to state the MS word count - the exact number of words. It sounds like as long as you have a word count between 80K and 100K, and have an interesting plot, you and your agent can figure out the number of pages later.

Jessica this is great news. But, what about counts for MG, Tweens, and YA?

Southern Writer,

Thanks, that gives me hope. I know Paladin's Pride will be sliced and diced, but I have a very bad habit of using most of the elements I put in the story. Yes, there really is a reason for the wizard's obsession with rebuilding his wife's henhouse he blew up.

Great post! I'm loving your blog. Diana Peterfreund, one of my TARA sisters, sent me over to your blog by way of hers. Now I'm hooked. :D

Maybe I’m off here but word count is exactly that, word count. I use TNR 12 and I set my page up at 1-inch margins, exactly 25 lines per page, window orphan off, and first line of each paragraph by 0.5”. I’m still going to have 90,000 words when finished regardless of how many pages I have.

My current wip is at 67,859 words. Using TNR 12 I am at 223 pages. If I change the font to Courier New 12 I am at 303 pages. Which if I use the CN 12 it looks like I’ve added a whopping 80 pages. I haven’t. I still have 67,859 words. I think (again, I could be wrong) which ever of the two fonts you prefer to write in is fine. You still need the correct amount of words when you type “The End”, your page count will just be different depending on the font.

Glad I could be of help, Anon 7:12pm. I struggled with the concept at first, but then the light bulb went off.

The thing to keep in mind is that, unless you are writing ebooks, your published book is a physical thing that has physical constraints. It's an object that has to fit inside a cover--and book spines still jump in signatures, I think, so the publisher can't just add a few pages, they have to add pages in multiples of...8? 16?...I forget. Then it has to fit in boxes to get to the bookstores (My books are 48 books to a box.). Then it has to fit on bookstore shelves or--maybe harder--those metal racks in Walmart (if you are so lucky!) (PS--I'm not expert, so don't take my word as gospel, of course, and my field is mass market romance, so other genres may differ.)

I wouldn't get TOO hung up on the whole word count thing, though. You probably need to know at least in a ballpark way so you have an idea of the size of the story you can tell--a shorter series story might not fit a longer single title length and vice versa. But if your story or voice is compelling or fresh enough, an editor might still grab your manuscript. My first book, The Naked Duke, sold because it was a finalist in the (now defunct) Regency category of RWA's Golden Heart. That meant it was a shortish category length. My editor just told me to make it longer to fit the single title size. An interesting exercise.

I have had my editor tell me, long after a book was done and handed in, that it was too short--it wouldn't fit the spine--could I make it longer? Instead I offered her the first chapter of the next book. (A win/win--I made up the physical length AND got some promotion out there.) A friend told me she got the call to add x number of pages to her story in an anthology. She speculated someone hadn't been able to deliver a story at the last minute, so the remaining authors had to make up the space to fit the spine.

It's an interesting business. But the important thing is always...just write the best d#mn book you can.

Maybe it would help if people thought of this in two different ways.

You have your word count, i.e. the exact number of words in your document. In my case, it is 81,988. No matter what I do with the formatting, that is how many words I have.

Then there is page space. My book takes up 96,000 words worth of space on a page.

If I'm submitting to an epub that doesn't have the constraint of buying and formatting the paper this book will have to fit on, then they would only need the actual number of words. 81K and change.

But if I'm submitting to a publishing house that does need to worry about how much paper is being taken up by this book, they need to know that the book uses more page space than 81K. It uses the space of 96,000 words. That is a much fatter book than one containing 81,000 words.

Most publishers are concerned with how fat the book is, or the page space. I type in Courier because it is easier to multiply by 250 than 350 for TNR. I don't like math.

I've heard, and I guess Jessica just confirmed it. Agents and editors like to look at the page count and know automatically how fat that book is going to be when printed. They can't determine that if only given the exact word count. They can determine that if the ms has standard formatting. Then it is a just a quick and simple multiplication problem.

That is why there is standard formatting in the first place. If it didn't matter how fat the book was, we could write in Century Gothic font and no one would care. The standard is there so people can estimate the page space quickly.

You're right on this. But there are exceptions, of course, like with Eragon, which had to have 20,000 words cut and was still around 500 pages, selling 8 million in just 3 years.

Yeah, there are exceptions all the time, but your book has to be something that the publishing company believes in so strongly that they are willing to print it "special" and make allowances for it.

The first three Harry Potter books were all about the same length and about the size of most teen fiction, until Rowling reached book four and had enough clout to say, "I'm writing the book my way, and if you want to sell it, sit down and hush up."

Or something like that. LOL

Ah, well, this would explain why I keep getting that big 900-page fantasy horror rejected, aside from whatever else may be bogging down the dastardly query.

This was a great blog, Jessica, and very helpful. Luckily, I have smaller works completed. I just figured the titanic piece was my first and looked better as the order I saw my novels getting published. Sacrifices will have to be made, it looks like. Thank you for this.
Brandon
BloodRedTales

Hi, I'm a reader, I want a good read, and lots of words so that I can get my money's worth from a book. After reading quite a few agents blogs about which books (as manuscripts) "look Interesting" or " I am passionate about". I really wonder how many great books we readers miss out on because an agent is always looking for a new spin! I don't expect every book to blow me away, I just want some great characters whom I can love or hate with a good setting and some interesting facts about places I may never visit. Every book is original, even if the plot is similar to others.
As a reader with limited funds to buy books, give me lots of words.

Yeah, but I'm also sure you want to have the book at a reasonable price. In order to keep printing costs down, it only makes sense to do all the books with one process. It is more efficient, and therefore, paperbacks can be sold for under ten dollars.

If all the books were different lengths, they would also be more expensive to produce, and guess who gets to pay for that. The consumer. This is just one of those things you have to know up front that it is a constraint, and work with it instead of lamenting it.

What if every script for a T.V sitcom had different lengths? My Tivo would be a mess. If you are planning to write genre fiction, there is an automatic expectation that the book will be a very specific length. So when you structure your novel, pay attention to the length from the very beginning, and voila, one less thing that "counts against you," as a new writer.

Well, at best estimate I am going to run 140,000 words for a fantasy. I'm not going to worry about cutting yet. I'll get the story finished and then enlist the help of friends with sharp pencils, knives and other slicing instruments.

I guess all bets are off for nonfiction, but is there a general rule in that area as well?
Memoir seems almost "novelistic" in its presentation, so I'd imagine the counts that apply to novels apply there. But nonfiction in general? Say, a craft book that will have some photos included?

I think that is why non-fiction books are usually sold on proposal. That way the publisher sees the proposal and can plot out how much they are able to invest in the production. Then the book is written into those constraints after the contract is already signed.

But I don't know as much about non-fiction books.

Ugh. My novel, Neitherworld, is over 200,000 words - that's 200,000+ words PER book one and book two. Perhaps that's why I finally went the pod route. Those intrepid enough to take on a James Mitchner-length story can check it out on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Neitherworld-Book-One-Akiiwan/dp/143031253X/ref=cm_lmf_tit_2_rdssss1

or read the prologue here:

Prologue

“Because my grandmother was a shaman, that’s why!” Orenda exclaimed, balling her fists in anger. “She healed people. Daddy said people felt…threatened by her. But she was just trying to help people.”
“But if she knew people were after her, why didn’t she go to the police, to someone who could make it stop?” Sam asked.
“Daddy said no one believed her. Well, I guess someone believed her - enough to run her and my grandfather off a cliff!” Orenda hesitated and looked down. “I never even got to meet them.”
“I’m so sorry Orenda. I wish there was something I could do. You’ve been through more than any child your age should ever have to go through. I’m sorry your great grandfather was crippled and your grandparents were killed…and most of all, that your father died.”
“Cal and the other Sky Watchers think he was murdered,” Orenda said bitterly, while staring at the trunk between them - her father’s trunk.
“Oh, Orenda, I don’t know if they’re right or not. If I did, believe me, I’d help bring the people who did it to justice myself. If Cal could only offer some sort of proof….”
“All the proof is in that trunk,” Orenda said firmly. “But I guess you don’t believe it either,” she sighed.
“Believe what, exactly, Orenda?”
“In Voice-in-the-Sky. That he could do all those things. That his…uh, descendants could too.”
“Orenda, I’ve seen what’s in the trunk.” Sam held her purse with the diary inside close. “Just tell me the truth.”
Orenda shook her head and stared into space. “You sound like Ron did. I’m sure you and he will be very happy together.”
“That’s nice of you to say, I guess,” Sam said. Her voice quavered as she asked, “By the way, Orenda, do you know where he is…or any of the others?”
Orenda didn’t answer. She took three steps toward Sam. Sam backed away before telling herself it was silly to be afraid of a ten year old girl. “You’re different from the others,” Orenda said in a strangely distant voice. “You…you see things too, don’t you?” Orenda took another step closer and against all reason, Sam backed away again.
“I don’t know what you mean, Orenda.”
“Now who’s hiding things?” Orenda asked, taking another step closer.
They were both on the wooden platform now, between the trunk and the subbasement wall. Orenda was close enough for Sam to see the brilliant shine in her green eyes, even in the dim lantern light. “You have dreams…visions, like me. We’re not that different actually,” Orenda said.
“Yes, Orenda, we have a lot in common, I’m sure. We should talk about that sometime. But I’m not going to run from you anymore, Orenda, no matter what you and your Gichi-mishoomis were talking about upstairs.”
“Oh, you overheard that too,” Orenda said disappointedly. “Then there’s really no choice, I guess.”
“Orenda, what are you talking about? What happened to Tim, Grace, Doctor Thompson and Ron?” Sam demanded.
“It won’t hurt, really,” Orenda said distantly, tears coming down her cheeks. Silvery dust swirled in the subbasement the way it did in the cave when... She knew it wouldn’t be doing so unless she was supposed to use it, unless it was providing her with an alternative now that her mother had forbidden her from going to the island. She was sure of that much. “By the way, Samantha, there’s a spider in your hair,” Orenda said.
Sam reached up to brush away the spider. Orenda suddenly grabbed her wrist. When Sam wrapped her stronger hand around the child’s arm, more in bemusement than fear, Orenda grabbed her other wrist. Sam stood still with a crooked smile, waiting; she didn’t want to hurt her. "Orenda?"
“Why didn’t you tell the police, or Jimmy about me?”
“Who says I didn’t?” Sam bluffed.
“No, I know you didn’t,” Orenda said, holding both of Sam’s wrists now.
“Alright, I…I have trust issues.”
Orenda nodded and sighed. “Yeah, so do I.”
“What do you mean…oh my God…”
The dark subbasement became even darker.
=====
Oh, wait. Didn't James Mitchner sell a lot of best-sellers? Hmmmm...