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Do you also have to pay for say a title of a book or a movie you mentioned in your novel?

Interesting stuff. I reference the song, 'Hey Jude' in one of my novels although I don't mention the Beatles or reference lyrics. Would I still have to pay permissions?

Wow, really interesting.

I guess most writers just assume that all those costs are covered by the publishers.

And CFD, I think that mentioning a title is free, and you don't need permission for that.

But don't quote me on that, I could be wrong.

Rachelle,

Thanks for this post! It's one I haven't seen covered before.

On the subject of permissions: I'd like to know more about getting permissions to use poetry when the book it comes from is long, long out of print--but still in copyright. I would hope it would be less expensive?

:-)

This is a very helpful post, Rachelle. Thanks. I have one quote from a classic novel in my book which I'm going to go back and delete now.

One word. Bummer.

How's that for honesty?

I'm writing a book. I don't like to have to think about this in the midst of the creative process. I mean, I REALLY don't like it.

The cost of every #@%&! reference to something should not nag at me or affect the artist process. It shouldn't! Okay, I'm not shouting. I'm just a bit worked up. It's early in the morning and I need some strong coffee. At least, I wasn't planning to use song lyrics or cartoons . . .

I'm so glad I have an agent who is on top of these things. :)

Wow. An index? I had no idea. Thanks for the informative post.

I'm curious on the use of song lyrics where one crosses the line between "fair use" and rights infringement.

For example, if a character starts humming a song, I assume naming the song and/or group causes no problem. If they burst into a single phrase of the song (probably from the chorus) has the line been crossed?

~ Jim

Of course there is also that wonderful but fuzzy doctrine of fair use that is defined more by court cases than by copyright law. When in doubt, it’s best to get permission, but when we’re disagreeing with someone’s position, that person may not want to give us permission at any price. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we can’t quote that person.

And to those people concerned about the use of names and book titles, consider that copyright law applies as much to things like blog post and for that matter the comments to blogs as it does to a published book. I would suggest looking at this with a bit of commonsense. Can you imagine if we had to get permission to mention the name of a book every time we wanted to list the books we’re reading? I would say that we would have to e-mail the copyright holder, but we couldn’t because it would be illegal to mention the book in the e-mail.

The point is that copyright law is not intended to limit free speech but is supposed to be a protection for writers like us. It isn’t there to protect us from things we don’t want people to say about us, but to protect us from them taking our work and reducing our ability to make money from it.

In the current era of "narrative sampling," etc. (I'm thinking of the young German author who was in the news a few months ago), I am glad for stringent copyright/permissions laws. It should not come as a shock to any seasoned writer that you would have to pay permissions fees for lyrics, poems, photos, etc.

It comes up often on my various writers loops about permissions for song lyrics. We know you need to get permission and probably that we need to pay for it (actually, the talk is usually: the publisher will handle it, and it ends there), but it is a constant question, usually beginning with the HOW of the process. It seems to be an issue for the smaller presses and their authors.

If you could talk about that, this music junkie would be quite grateful.

One solution is to write your own poetry and songs, or use something in the public domain.

What about references used in non-fiction books? As in historical or scientific sources- you don't have to pay for using their book as a source do you?

Cassandra Frear, during the creative process all you really need to be concerned with is making sure you properly identify the source of all your quotes—book name, author(s), page numbers, publisher, etc.—which you would need to do anyway, copyright or no copyright. It’ll save you time later if you’ll also record the e-mail address and/or mailing address for the copyright holder, but after the creative stuff is done is the time to worry about obtaining permission. At that time, you just need to send letters to each copyright holder identifying the material you would like to copy and asking for their terms. There’s work involved, but nothing so difficult that it should stifle the creative process.

Hmm. This brings up an interesting question (albeit lousy timing). I have quoted some famous movie lines in a recent book. When I asked my editor about it, she said she didn't think it would be an issue. Now I'm wondering if that's the case and perhaps I have something new to feel anxious about. :-)

Titles are not copyrightable - you could call you next masterpiece "The Sun Also Rises" without being sued. (What bookstores and readers would think is something else again). You could even have a (fictional) character disparage "A Farewell To Arms" without getting into trouble. If you were writing non-fiction and claimed Hemingway did not really write it, you might have problems (unless you could prove it).

When I need a bit of poetry or song lyrics for chapter headings or in the text, I simply write it myself. Are there novelists out there who can't/don't write poetry?

Interesting! I've always been fascinated by the index thing. A well done index makes me jump for joy. And I've also gnashed my teeth over some poorly done indexes in books. Who are the mysterious people who do indexing anyway and how do they do it?

Am I familiar with this post?!?! Oh yes, the song lyrics at the top of each chapter. My book idea self-destructed after this one. Thank you so much for your help & direction on this one!!

No book ideas in the works for me. My love of music was my inspiration, and I hope to perculate a new idea at some point. But for now, just enjoying learning the ropes. Thanks for all your write.

Interesting questions posted here. I am eager to see the answers.

CFD: You never need permission to mention a title of anything - song, book, movie, whatever. They are not subject to copyright. That's why you see books and even movies of the same name.

T. Anne: You can reference a song without getting permission. It's the lyrics that matter.

Anonymous 1:56 AM: Ack! Don't delete your quote! I never said anything in this post about quoting from another BOOK. It's totally different, and as long as your quote isn't pages and pages long, it most likely won't require either permission or payment. I'll be more specific in my later post.

Cassandra Frear: Are we all over-reacting today or what? I didn't say "worry about every little reference to something." I said QUOTE FROM A SONG OR POEM. Or Use somebody's artwork or photo. That's very different from referencing something.

This is not about "mentioning something." It's about using somebody's intellectual property. Chill out, girl!

Jim 4:36 AM: Look at it this way. If you quoted 100 words from a 100,000-word novel, that would be one-tenth of one percent of the entire work. It's a very small portion, and can be considered a "fair use." But it you quote just 2 lines from a 10-line song, you're now using a full 20% or one-fifth of the work - a very large portion of it. That's not "fair use" and the songwriter deserves credit and possibly, payment.

(Please note that "Fair Use" is not a fully spelled out rule or doctrine, there is no specified word limit, and it is open to wide interpretation.)

Susan 5:35 AM: The "how" of getting permissions is complicated but in this day and age, everyone has Google and a phone. You have to find out the copyright holder, get on your computer and track it down.

Suz Rocks: You're talking about Fair Use. Just make sure you're not using more than about 200 words from a single source and you should be fine. The rules are fuzzy and your publisher will give you their guidelines.

Sandra 6:08 AM: A movie is more like a novel and can be quoted without permission with the same guidelines above - make sure you're not quoting half the movie in your book.

BK Jackson: Um, they're called "indexers." They use a variety of means of indexing - some use indexing software and some don't - but I don't think I can give you a full course on indexing here in the comments, sorry.

Thanks, Rachelle! Very interesting and helpful, as I was curious about this point because in my YA contemporary fantasy novel, I mention the titles of numerous 80s songs during a themed homecoming dance. Question, though: What about things like restaurant names or stores?

Thank you!!

You don't need permission to mention a name of anything. People, brands, restaurants, stores, books, movies, songs, anything.

People and businesses have NAMES so that people can USE those names. It's not something that requires permission.

Something some people may not realize is that the most commonly used Bible translations (other than the KJV) are still under copyright and require copy permission. Many include a page spelling out what is allowed. Usually it is along the line of you can quote from it with proper reference given, but you can’t quote large amounts (more than 500 verses for NIV) or have the quotes make up more than some percentage of the work without explicit permission.

This post was interesting and to the point. Thanks for the information. I had often wondered about what did and did not require special permission to be used. Now I know.

Thanks for the insight.

Wow, I didn't know that. I learned something new today, and the day just started. Thanks for the great post.

Oh my goodness! Maybe I'll rethink having a bit of Frank Sinatra in my current WIP. It's not much, though the song may be in the public domain--I'd have to check.

Yikes! I need to keep this in mind! Thanks for sharing!

As a journalist, I understood you could use approx. 50 words from an article and 250 from a book. That's what I used when quoting sources in my articles. Still valid?

A few years back I used the title and lyrics of the chorus Famous One to conclude my novel, uh, The Famous One. Per 1000 copies, the cost to use the lyrics was $40 (which I paid for). I think it's a bit more now.

Probably a silly question, but what about (old) folk songs with no known author? Can the artists who recorded specific versions of the song claim copyright, or music historians who recorded them in books? Or are these pieces truly public domain?

I found some questions from an online self-help article that I wanted to use in my novel. I emailed the company through their contact page, sent them a certified letter, called their 800 number which sent me in circles, even posted on their facebook page asking for permission and no one ever responded--this has gone on for months. What can you do if you've done your due diligence in attempting to get permission but the requestee doesn't respond?

I enjoy reading this blog and coming away with answers to questions I didn't even know I had!

It's bonus knowledge!

Thanks for the post, Rachelle. I have never seen this addressed anywhere, whether in blog or book. Good to educate authors on these points, which could be very important.

Thanks for the post, Rachelle. I have never seen this addressed anywhere, whether in blog or book. Good to educate authors on these points, which could be very important.

Thank you for sharing this information.

~ Angela

This post was most helpful. I did a bit of research into this as I want to include a line from a Disney movie which is also a lyric in a song. Disney and many others use a company (www.HalLeonard.com) to handle all these requests, and they said that my work needed to be closer to publication before they could consider the request. They have a Frequently Asked Questions page on their website which is very helpful.

Rachelle, as you said, all you need is Google and a phone (and I'd add an email address), and you can find out much of what you need to know.

Thanks again!

@Rachelle: Thank you for addressing my question! That helps tons.

Rachelle,
This was such an useful post! Thank you! It was news to me that it is the author's responsability to pay for these additions. I'd be interested in reading more about using lyrics in the contemporary Christian music genre. How expensive are those? How about if there would be an accompanying CD of the quoted songs? I'm willing to pay some but there's a limit what I can do. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

helpful post! I'm in the process of trying to clear quotes for my novel, and I have my fingers crossed it won't cost me so much that I have to take the quotes out!

Wow, I never thought about this. Thank you for sharing this information. And the Bible is copyrighted, hadn't thought of that either.

This is very intresting, and something I think many new authors don't consider. I'm in the midst of final edits of a novel for a small publisher, and found out the hard way how difficult permissions can be to obtain. If the song is popular and not in the public domain, heaven help you. I ended up excising the single line I used in a chapter and even dropping the few song titles I mentioned to avoid any risks. Not famous, not rich (though someday, I hope!)... can't afford to pay for words that aren't mine.

Okay, so an index is a pretty standard thing that most of us realize people using a book for research will want, so it really shouldn’t come as a surprise when the publisher asks for one, but suppose we’ve signed the deal, taken the $1,200 of the top and it looks like we’ll make it until the publisher comes along and says, “You know what? What would really make this book great is a picture of a kitty cat at the first of every chapter. And we need chart correlating the data from the TPS reports. And I saw this great Dilbert cartoon that would go great on page 56. Oh, by the way, my niece is a great artist and needs money for college. We should put some of her work in here.” At what point does the author have the option of saying, “Look, if you want it in there, you pay for it!”

And I have another question. You said that the publisher would take the $1,200 out of royalties. Suppose the advance is $30,000, of which we would expect the agent to get $4,500. Suppose the book doesn’t earn out. Is the agent’s cut calculated on the original $30,000, on $28,800 because the author wasn’t paid the $1,200, or on $31,200 because the publisher advanced the index on top of the original advance?

Eeeek.
thanks for the help.
Good to know.

I've been using a Procul Harum lyric as inspiration / a working title on a novel.

I had a feeling I might be changing it when I'm finished. This confirms it. Love the lyric, but not that much. ;)

@rachelle, thanks for the post. I've a short story where I quote a line from a CS Lewis book. It seems that is okay, since it was only a couple lines of a book, but I'm curious -- when do copyrighted works expire and enter the public domain? I've heard different responses to this.

@timothy, I believe (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that if the publisher says they'll take it out of the royalties, that's what the author is paid from profits of the book selling, and does NOT include the advance.

I'd also guess that if it's the publisher that insists on adding photos, cartoons, etc., it's the publisher that will pay for them. Usually, however, it's the author that adds them.

Rachelle, great information. Thanks for posting it.

Luke Evans: Copyright is currently author's life plus seventy-five years. I believe.

Luke Evans, the advance is just an advance on royalties, so from the publisher’s perspective, the advance and the indexing fee are both coming out of the same bucket. The question arises because it isn’t clear whether the publisher will pay the full advance and then add an addition advance to pay for the indexing or if the publisher will pay the author the advance less the $1,200 the author owes the publisher. Then the agent adds another level of confusion because the author never actually sees the $1,200 because the published has paid the author in services. Because it is part of the royalties, we assume the agent is entitled to her cut. Had the book earned out, we could take the sum of the royalties and multiply by 15%, but since it didn’t we only have the advance. Assuming the publisher paid the full advance and also paid the $1,200 from royalties, the author/agent team have received a check for $30,000, but the publisher’s records show a $31,200 advance. Because the $1,200 is supposed to come out of the author’s pocket, the agent is justified in claiming 15% of the $1,200, but because the author never saw the $1,200 the agent would be taking money out of the author’s pocket by doing so. While there may not be a “right” answer here, it seems like there is a different best answer depending on if you are a writer, an agent or a publisher.

US Copyright law, as I understand it, is such that everything published before 1923 is in public domain. Anything published between 1923 and 1977 may go into public domain as many as 95 years after the publication date. After 1978, the greater of life plus 70 years and 12-31-2047, unless the author is a company, in which case the copyright is good for up to 120 years from the creation date or 95 years from the publication date.

This is seriously useful stuff! Thank you very much, Rachelle!

Thank you, Rachelle. And thank you, public domain.

My big question is using music in books and classes. I need to research a non-commercial license for using music in classes. But using lines from songs in books...wow...maybe $200?? I love lyrics, but that is a lot to pay. What I think would be cool is to work with a songwriter to write your own songs and lyrics. Any ideas?

Rachelle, thanks for another great post. You are a wealth of information.

This is an issue that has been stressing me out recently. In my blog, I love to quote various song lyrics. I always credit the lyricist, give the title, etc.

Recently I used some lyrics from the musical Les Miserables as part of a personal story; a certain song in the musical really changed my thinking, and I had to quote a number of lines to really drive home my point.

Was I supposed to get permission to do this? Pay $$? Or was this "fair use"?

If I have to get permission to use the lyrics in a simple blog post, that really makes me feel inhibited in what I can post and is highly inconvenient; after all, a blog post is really supposed to be a relatively quick thing to write! But I also want to give credit where credit is due and do the legal/moral thing.

This is why I write fiction--and fiction that isn't quirky enough to need an index. Or a verse from a Paul Simon song. (Okay, I did use one of the latter in a novella I wrote in high school. Didn't publish it, though.)

Great post. Thank you. What about quotes if you give credit to the author of the quote?

Rachelle,

I apologize for seeming to be so touchy. I wasn't as upset as I sounded. I meant it half-jokingly, but I realize now that I didn't come across that way.

I won't rant here again. You have my word on it. This was very unprofessional of me.

Thank you for your patience,

Cassandra

Interesting discussion here! I have never used song lyrics, until this recent book, and then I've put in a few "old mountain songs or hymns" lyrics - and boy did I do some research - finding I'd feel most comfortable with things written in the 1800 or very early 1900's, and then, those with so many varied versions, the original was hard to find.

Of those, some were re-recorded by "famous people" like the Carters and Cash and Dylan, but, they don't own the copyright -that's how I understand it - they didn't write the lyrics, some one in the 1800's or 1900's did, so I am "safe" using them - even so, it's daunting to use song lyrics, there's always that uncomfortable edgy feeling, which is why I normally never would use them.

I have quoted pieces of books - Tom Sawyer, To Kill a Mockingbird, with no problem- just a few lines is all.

Using Shakespeare and Ovid quotes is fair use - far as I know - fair use ...etc

On the subject of what author's pay for: I know that many authors, even those in the Big 6 arena, have to pay for their traveling expenses in most cases . . .

And last, many people do not know that authors have to buy copies of their own books - we do get some copies upon pulication, but, after those are gone, we purchase our books-at a discount, but we still purchase them, and we don't receive royalties on books we purchase ourselves, of course . . . don't know if these things are "across the publisher board" or not.

Great Discussion!

Lauradroege, fair use is not clearly defined, so even a lawyer (which I am not) may have trouble giving you a clear idea of what it is and is not. There are a number of factors involved. One is how much of the original work you copied, but another is how much of the new work is actually new work and how much is from the original work. As an extreme example, suppose someone copied a paragraph from a book. In amount copied it would probably fall under fair use, but if the only new work is a statement, “Enough said!” then it may not be considered fair use because the blog is just using the content rather than saying something that needs the material to support it.

Who said blog posts are supposed to be convenient and quick to write? Writing is writing and that includes obtaining proper permission. It may be inconvenient, but it will save time and money later if we don’t have to go to court.

Kathryn Magendie, the works of Shakespeare and Mark Twain are in the public domain, so you could have copied the whole original piece and not needed to obtain permission. Of course, one should still give proper credit or it is plagiarism, which is taboo even when it isn’t illegal.

I may not have been clear in what I just said. Fair use and public domain are two very different concepts. Things in the public domain are all those thing that do not have legal copyright protection for any of various reasons. Fair use has more to do with the concept of freedom of speech. While copyright protection is important in order for authors to make money from their work, the use of copyright protection to silence those who disagree must never be allowed.

One way to save on index costs is to do it yourself if the publisher is willing. I have indexed 5 of my books and blogged about my adventures in indexing on my WordPress blog at http://bit.ly/d3XweB

It's not for everyone but works particularly well with smaller or niche publishers.

I've written two non-fiction books (#2 is currently undergoing the penultimate edit) and in both cases the publisher has taken care of the index. At no time was it mentioned that it would come out of my royalties. In fact this second book is work-for-hire and I will get no royalties - just an up front payment.

So in what case would the author have to pay for an index?

RedHeadedQuilter: In what case? Most cases.

Your work-for-hire experience doesn't count in this discussion since everything is different in a work for hire situation.

Your other book - all I can say is, lucky you that you weren't responsible for the index! Your publisher must have a different policy than most.

Timothy Fish- Thanks for weighing in on this. With the post quoting Les Mis, I used about 13 lines. When you consider how long the musical is, this is a pretty small percentage; the lyrics are used to back up what I'm saying and to show the effect it had on me. But I'm still not sure if this counts as "fair use".

So what do I do with the posts that have used song lyrics? Delete them? Try to pay for it now? It would be painful to have to delete the Les Mis one, because it really spoke to a lot of people. THoughts on this? TImothy? Rachelle? Anyone?

The index is normally covered in a contract clause. Mine required me to either prepare an index or ask the publisher to do so with the cost to be deducted from royalties. I did my own. That's not for everyone, but it worked out well and I'm glad for the experience.

We often hear there's more money and opportunity in nonfiction, but when you consider the cost of indexing, photo permissions, research (not that fiction doesn't require it also), greater impact of competition, and the need for platform, that's not always true.

Lauraroege, my take on it is that I first don’t post any under copyright unless I am confident that what I’m doing falls within fair use or I have obtained permission. If there are posts that you aren’t sure about, the easiest option is to delete the post, but since you don’t want to do that, I would first suggest looking at the fair use guidelines for the relevant copyright law. If you still aren’t sure, contact the copyright holder with a copy of the post(s) identifying the copied material and express that you believe it falls under fair use and would like to know if they disagree. It’s quite possible that they’ll say they have no problem with it. If that’s not the case, you may still have the opportunity to pay for the right to publish the material. If they disagree and don’t give you the opportunity to pay for the rights, your best option is going to be to remove the post unless you have desire to go hire an attorney to prove that your use of the material is fair use.

I have a question. I haven't read every comment, but I have read Rachelle's answers and I didn't see this one in there.

What about quoting song lyrics in a short story on a blog or some similar forum where the author of the story isn't being paid. Can the author still get in trouble for quoting those lyrics, or does it only come into play when the author sells that story?

I have several poems from a friend that I use throughout my novel. I have her permission to use them, but we've never discussed payment. Assuming some future deal, I'd like to be fair to her. What would fair look like?

A % of royalties? A certain $ amount? She's currently unpublished, but I'd like to think that after people read her poetry they'll want more...

Daniellelapaglie, that would be like stealing a diamond necklace from a jewelry store and telling the judge that you shouldn’t go to prison because you didn’t sell it. Instead of looking at what the offending party makes from the theft of copyrighted material, the courts tend to look more at how much money the copyright owner might have made, among other factors primarily related to damages to the copyright holder.

Thanks for the info, Tim. I guess I was considering it more like a cover band vs. a record deal. People can sing any song they want on stage, but if they try to record it and sell it, it's a whole different ball game. One is a tribute, and one is a theft.
- Danielle La Paglia

Daniellelapaglia, copyright law makes some special provisions for performances where money is not made directly or indirectly. And “the purpose and character of the use” is one of the things the courts are supposed to consider when evaluating fair use, but whereas the law states very clearly what performances are not copyright infringement, it is just a consideration when looking at fair use. While someone performing God Bless America at a veteran’s hospital isn’t likely to reduce the copyright owner’s ability to make money, making the words and music available for free on the Internet might.

When I have characters quoting the Bible, I've always gotten the quotes off BibleGateway.com, and since I know specific translations could still be copyrighted, I always picked the KJV quotes. Would I need permission from that site?

No

This is an excellent post to help distinguish between whether a writer is writing for the pleasure of writing or writing to pursue a career as an author.

If I've learned nothing else here, it's that writing may be used for fun or profit. Publishing is a business, to be taken seriously.

I have no issue with continuing to learn about my craft - and networking with writers, editors, agents, and the like. I don't think anyone's education is over, even after he/she graduates from tradtional schooling.

The only thing is... it's hard to compare the time, money, and energy required to better ourselves as writers to the same requirements of teachers, lawyers, paralegals, etc. Mostly because, although nothing is guaranteed in any industry, some paths are easier to see and follow than others. To be a teacher, you need to go to college, get a teaching certificate, and send out your resume - but chances are, if you're a good teacher, you'll probably find a job (well, maybe not in THIS economy). But it's harder to see the "path" to becoming a published novelist. Even if you're a terrific writer, attend as many classes and conferences as your budget will allow, and follow all the querying "rules," there's simply no guarantee that an agent will notice you. Luck is such a factor - which is what can be discouraging.

But you're right - there are ways to learn without spending a fortune. Heck, reading such blogs as yours and Nathan's certainly helps!

It may not be valid to compare writer training to the training needed by teachers, lawyers, paralegals, etc. But if we compare writers to artists or musicians, the need for education and long hours of practice is similar.

Also, I'd like to mention some of the free resources available on the 'Net. In addition to numerous blogs like this, there are critique groups that you can join as well as informative forums available to read.

I plan on exhausting the free resources, along with purchasing books, before I pay some real money. In that way, I'll have a head start on understanding the material and I can better get my money's worth.

Oh my, I SO agree with you-- as well as the above commenter comparing it to time/money spent learning for an artist/musician.

I think it comes down to this: How much do you want it... and for Christians... is God REALLY calling you to do this?

If you want it bad enough, if it's THAT important to you, you can budget for it. You can apply for scholarships to conferences where you can, but other than that, set aside a few dollars every paycheck. Give up fastfood at lunch and pack a PBJ instead. There are ways...

and I know we all tease about people touting "God told me to write this..." but even though we aren't supposed to go around using this as a weapon, it's still true. God DOES call people to write, and if you are REALLY called, then you have to trust him to provide you the tools in order to do it.

Books/Writer's Groups/Conferences are all tools of the trade.

I'm an education addict, with an Economics degree, MA in Creative Writing and professional qualification in Accountancy (yes it's true) under my belt. Yet I cannot resist another writing course. I enjoyed Robert McKee's Story Seminar so much I'm considering retaking it. But, I do sometimes wonder if enough is enough.

With writing, as with any other profession, actually doing the writing is highly important too, don't you think?

A happy middle of the road approach must be the answer. Keep your pen sharpened while enjoying the occasional trip to the sweet shop of education.

If the cost makes me cringe once in a while, this is what I remind myself of, that it's "college" and I have to pay to learn, just like everyone else. :-)

Nice post!

I must not be a serious writer because my career budget looks like Bernie Madoff’s bottom line.

Great Post Rachelle.
I have a theory that perhaps when people are just starting out, all the advice they hear includes the phrase 'read lots of books'. This can sound expensive. And time consuming. It's all true!

But they're in a rush. And they've always wanted to write. Surely there are some short cuts we can hand over?

Sorry. It's a slow march up the hill. You've got to be in it for the long haul.

There is a disconnect out there - it only takes a few hours to read a book which took the author months to write and years to find an agent and who then slogged to find a suitable publisher, who then took another year or so before publication.

I think education is the best use of the internet as far as learning about the publishing business. I seriously don't have the money to go to any kind of conferences or workshops, other than one-day events hosted by my writers group. (discount!)

But man, can you learn a lot here.

It's been worth the time.

Blogiversity!

Conferences near home are often quite inexpensive. I recently attended the Midwest Writer's Workshop, which was only an hour's drive for me, but allowed me to participate in workshops and network with great agents and writers. It was well worth my time and money.

Try to Double-Dip. Find a WS or Conf that you can stretch into a Spouce Jaunt or business trip pertaining to your paying job.

Since writing is my passion, I get almost as excited about learning a little something new as I do the writing itself.

I think I read somewhere that even Francine Rivers still attends writers conferences.

And there's nothing that sparks new ideas for a work in progress like a book on craft.

To add to fuel to the fire, I attending a well respected author's class and she suggested that buying books is also part of the "pay to play" issue.

Paraphrasing, she said, "If I want others to buy my books, I need to be forking out the money to other authors."

As someone who goes through books like water, I lean heavily towards my library and used books stores. But I saw her point and it DID make me purchase more books. I tend to read them first and if I love them, I buy them from a book store and recommend them heavily to friends and family.

N@

I love the post Rachelle and will check out your former post for more information. I don't have much money to invest and have young children at home but I have been trying to find opportunities to write and have my work critiqued by others to help strengthen my writing. My favorite is a group call "Faith Writers" who do a writing contest every week. The topic changes each Thursday and then your post is put out for other writers to comment and critique. I have found it very helpful.

Great post.

Great post. You know, it's so true. When I decided to dive into the world of writing--seriously--I sat back and thought about the most valuable/respectable conferences available.

Then, me and my sweet hubby sat down and decided how to budget in the cost. It's been a year, but I've saved enough to attend ACFW this year. And hopefully an RWA conference next year.

If you pray about it and your spouse is behind you, then God can make it happen. I'm living proof.

Press on!!

I LOVE this post, Rachelle. If we're serious about our writing career, then we'll need to invest both time and money. Time is always a necessity. But putting out the money might not be as important until we're further along in our writing journey.

When I first started writing, I invested mostly time. I focused on reading craft books. I borrowed most through the library system and could get just about everything I needed that way. I spent most of my time writing and reading.

After I'd been writing and learning for quite a number of years, I started to query. It was at that point that I knew I needed to take my writing career to the next level. I was ready to invest money into it. I started entering contests, paying for an editor, and am attending my first writer's conference this fall.

Good morning Rachelle,

You can add accountants and engineers to the list of those who have continuing education requirements.

I want to say "Amen!" to embracing life long learning. My 90 year-old Mother and I share a home. Since her passion is cooking and baking, she prepares most of our meals. Mother is always experimenting with new recipes and making new versions of old ones. I think one of the reasons everyone thinks she is 70 instead of 90 is because she never stops learning. The fastest way to grow old - no matter what your calendar age reflects - is to stop learning. Learning is a real fountain of youth!

Be blessed!

Lynnda

This totally echoes a post my husband wrote yesterday about our decision for me to go to ACFW. http://marybethandcurt.blogspot.com/2009/08/personal-investing.html

We disagreed at first when I asked him to go, to the point that things were tense between us. Then a friend reminded me, "Shut up and pray." So I did. Yesterday he called me to tell me his story about the sales call. He said God whacked him over the head with that realization and that he would make it possible for me to go as an investment in my calling and my craft.

Your post was only another confirmation of this concept of investing into our future. So, thanks!

I think one aspect of some types of education (conferences and critique groups in particular) has a benefit that should far outweigh any cost and that's this: human contact. In a pursuit as solitary as writing, getting out and interacting with others writers is invaluable. The relationships that can result from these educational options can be a tremendous support for a writer. Conferences and writer's groups don't just shape your mind and craft, they can feed your soul. In the words of the Mastercard commercial, "that's priceless".

Lara

Several years ago, an online magazine editor pushed me toward a writer's conference with the words, "Although it does involve an expense, consider it an investment in what I believe is a career God is leading you into." (All because of an aritcle I'd written on request.)

In addition to paying your dues and learning the craft (as others have mentioned before), I think an investment in your writing career adds value to the finished product.

First, if I've put time and money (and blood, sweat, and tears) on the line, I'll be serious about making my writing the best it can currently be and won't send off flippant queries or half-baked prose.

Second, when my writing is eventually published and I hold that beautiful book in my hands ... I can't put a price on that feeling. But my investment along the way makes that price a little higher than it might have been. And the celebration that much sweeter.

So, here's to being teachable and continuing to learn.

I've been exhausting all the free options! Budgeting for writing related things is hard when you're still newlyweds and paying off a thousands of dollars of college loans and fixing up the house...:(
But I'm trying!

When a conference comes within driving distance, I try to budget for it. The conferences that require flying are still a little bit out of the budget (not to mention that I dread flying...LOL), but someday I'll try and make it to one of the "big" ones in NYC or elsewhere.

I'm already trying to save up for a subscription to Writer's Digest (an invaluable magazine IMO), ACFW membership and the conference in 2010--it'll be in Indy then and that's only a 2 hour drive :)

The thousands of dollars (yes, thousands, easily) I've spent on conferences and the thousands of dollars I've spent on books and recordings to learn about writing and publishing have been worth it. Not to mention (but here goes!) the thousands of hours I've spent scribbling in notebooks and hunched at my computer. Big investment. No regrets.

Yes, yes, yes.

And, let's not forget that PLENTY of careers cost lots of money to study for, but don't guarantee high paychecks in the end.

You mentioned that lawyers have to take continuing education courses to keep their licenses (true in most states)... but everyone thinks that lawyers make a fortune, so it's a drop in the bucket to pay for law school and keep your studies updated given the big salary at the end, right? WRONG. Some of the best lawyers work in government jobs or the public defenders or other places where they can practice not just "law" but a specific kind of law that they love, that they think is important to society. And some of those jobs only pay about $20K/year.

Hmmm, how much is that law school debt, again?

There are plenty of ways to study writing, and just like those amazing public-service lawyers, you have to decide what your career is worth to you.

Continuing education as it were in the publishing industry is a little different animal than other vocations. For most vocations, schooling is finite, you get a degree that allows you to go get a job and make money to justify the expense. Yes you have to continue to learn about your chosen field, but you're making money at it or better yet, your employer pays for it.

Writing, like most artistic endeavors, is not so easily defined or contained. Sure, you can go to school, get the appropriate degree, but then...nothing. You have to make it work yourself at that point. Galleries don't hire artists to create the items they are going to display. It's up to you to create something they want. It's up to you to become good enough.

Sad thing is, at least in writing, a lot of people actually are good enough but still never achieve publication. Good writing is only the foundation, the minimum one needs. Yes you can continue to educate yourself, strive to achieve higher levels of craft. This is all good of course. There is no end game when it comes to learning the craft of writing. One can always get better. Always. I also believe that a great deal of getting better at writing is self-taught. There is a TON of information one can get on one's own, and much of it is what one gets via paid actvities like workshops and conferences. Most of the stuff presented in these venues is already available in free or cheap avenues through books or connecting with people online.

In my opinion, events meant to teach you about writing are really far more than about learning craft. It's about making connections with other writers. Far more is gained from the people you meet and interact with than any workshop. These people help teach, inspire, and help keep up the enthusiams for writing, because let's face it, writing is a solitary endeavor and involves vast amounts of patience.

Patience is key. If you don't have it, you'll never make it in this industry. You might as well enjoy your writing for the pleasures and rewards it provides you on its own, but forget trying to publish. Without patience it won't happen (except for the rare exception of course). You have to be willing to accept the fact that it may never happen (since for most it won't) and still be willing to try. Assume its not going to happen until it does.

It's all about perseverence, luck, and good writing (whole other ballgame if you get published). Everyone can work on being a better writer, which in my mind mostly involves writing a lot and teaching yourself the basics of what it means to write well. Connect with other writers, you'll be much saner and wiser for it. Then all you can do is keep at it. The longer you keep at it, the better your odds. This is a slow motion industry. Perseverence can't be emphasized enough. You have to be willing and wanting to write without success. Then you just throw those darts and hope you eventually hit the bullseye.

It can happen, trust me. A few days ago, I hit the bullseye.

Reading the work of others who are in the same approx stage in their writer's journey can be very helpful. That might mean a critique group, blog or online contests for unpubs. Also, if you have the right temperament, you can volunteer to be a judge in contests. That is one way to give back to the writing community--while giving yourself the opportunity to see how others practice their craft.

Many organizations (such as RWA) have scholarship funds available, so think about looking into that.

Finally, do some research into your tax laws. If you are genuinely pursuing a career in writing, some of your expenses may be tax-deductible. Many writers workshops will have information about this.

I, too, grapple with the balance between investing in my writing career, or asking myself if this is nothing more than an expensive hobby. For me, until I've earned a contract, it is still a hobby, because for every contracted author, there are reams of unpubbed wanna-be's who will never see their names in print. They can't honestly say writing is their profession, just as I could never claim to be a doctor simpy because I studied medicine a great deal.

You have keep a balance. At the first writer's conference I attended, I met several people who had pursued writing almost obssessively, spending money I knew they did not have to attend every conference available. One look at their one-sheet told me their dreams may never happen. If they'd done all that homework and the writng was still that bad...

It's those people I feel for when we hear the advice to keep pursuing it. The hopelessness on their faces, the discouragement when they truly didn't understand what was wrong, was heartbreaking.

Maybe there is a time to give up and use that same dogged persistence to pursue something more attainable.

So true. No amount of "training" will replace a natural talent and ability. All the courses in the world won't teach you to write, but you can improve over time.

This trend of encouraging everyone to "be a writer" because it seems easy, fun or glamorous will only result in heartbreak for most who seek publication. Try to get published locally or submit short stories before you aim for the big-time. Publishers determine the market, not God.

I completely agree. There are times when I can afford it and times I can't. I was happy to get to attend a big conference this year, but that was about my yearly budget as well. The internet is so full of information that anyone should be able to learn on their own to some degree. Good post.

Libraries are losing funding. But I have found really good writing books in my local library and read them before buying.

Rachelle, cost is a factor, but you're right that it doesn't have to be the obstacle that keeps an individual from realizing their dream. Think of J.K. Rowling writing away while on welfare (if I recall correctly). I just completed my second writing residency -- a week of uninterrupted writing and prayer time. I've gone two years now thanks to a grant. There are other writing residencies such as this and grants are available; it just takes even a little more perseverance (but think of the payoff when the dreams are realized). I've also treated myself to an annual conference with birthday money (my gift to myself) and am soon to leave for a communications conference in Texas that I will go to with the help, again, of a grant. It takes some creativity and fortitude, but the opportunities do exist, so take heart, those who feel daunted. Been there, done that. :)

All hobbies require money and time, so there is no reason to think that writing would be different. Many people who golf spend money for someone to tell them how to improve their swing. Hunters often spend more money on equipment than what the deer is worth. But the hobbyist has a freedom that the professional does not. A hobby is an investment in me. It gives me an escape from my real job and allows me to relax. That alone may be valuable enough to justify an expense that I won’t get back. But a professional must make a profit. If he doesn’t, he doesn’t eat.

I've posted a lot of free resources on my blog (see the must-read posts). Also, I live and breathe by Holly Lisle's How to Think Sideways course. Not free, but it covers everything.

Rachelle,
Thanks for the great post. I am fairly new to the writing field, and am taking in as much education as possible. I would love to be able to go to ACFW this year, but the budget won't allow it. I'm already saving for next year. One awesome thing about ACFW is each month free class is offered on some aspect of writing. These classes are conducted by experienced, published writers and the ones I have participated in thus far have been incredibly helpful.

Blessings!!

Ah. Perfect timing. I was just discussing with my fiance the value of saving for our wedding vs. going to a writing conference. Obviously the wedding won out, but we did decide that it will be worth it in a few years when we're more settled (and when I've completed my WIP) to budget for those things regularly.
I'm going to point him to this post as a good perspective. Especially the part about exploring all the options available to me that don't cost money.

Thanks, Rachelle!

I say if the workshop circuit is too expensive for someone, then they should start their own. We have several large writers groups here in CO and I think they all have reasonably-priced opportunities for continued learning. Somebody had to start those groups.

Keep up the good work, Rachelle. I've nominated you for a Kreative Blogger award. Have a look at my blog for details - http://mickmal1.blogspot.com/

I can relate to the money issue. But publishing is a business, even before you are published.

I love what Rachelle wrote: Embrace it. Networking and education is so necessary and continual!

If you are short on funds, go to God. This summer I wanted to go to RWA Nationals, but did not have the money. I was up for the RITA and thought it'd be fun to go to the award ceremony, as well as sit in on workshops.

I prayed and talked to hubby. He said, "I really feel you should go." Within a month, God brought enough My Book Therapy clients I paid for my trip!

The Lord paid my way to go and accept the RITA not for myself, but for Susan May Warren. It was sooo very cool! He did something in my heart beyond winning or losing.

God has always connected me at conferences. It's such His heart that we need each other. :)

If you feel you are to go to a conference, ask the Lord to make a way. He will. And He'll make sure you connect with those you need and learn what will benefit you most.

Rachel

This post is spot on! I went to college to learn how to write, and I learned a lot, but there are things that only are discovered through experience, and the blunt opinions of others.

Many online critique groups are free and I thoroughly recommend them. Not only do they let you stretch your writerly muscles, but they help you develop friendships.

I think another thing to point out is that conferences can open doors through access to agents and editors. It isn't a guarantee, but the potential is there.

I think Timothy Fish is right.

For all the talk about "investment," there's scant talk of returns, other than "connections."

Which don't pay the bills.

A 2008 study from Germany proves the adage that genius--in any number of fields--is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. This study reinforces one done in 1993 and reaches the same conclusion: to achieve mastery of a skill (like playing a sport or a musical instrument) requires 10,000 hours of practice.

How many unpublished or newly published writers have spent 10,000 hours working on their craft? That's roughly five years of full-time work. That's a lot of time.

When you're only able to write for an hour or two a day, those hours add up awfully slowly. But they do add up. I'm a better writer than I was a year ago and a much better writer than I was six years ago. And it's not because I've read a bunch of writing books or attended a couple of conferences. However useful those things may be, the thing that has made me a better writer is practice, is writing.

And that doesn't cost anything except the daily discipline of showing up and putting words on the page--something I think we all can afford.

If you live anywhere near southern California, or just need an excuse to see the ocean --- join us for our annual Fall Writers Conference. The San Diego Christian Writers Guild is one of the oldest (and best) local writers organizations in the country. Here's a link to this year's affordable fall conference,
held Sept 25 and 26 ---

http://sandiegocwg.org/node/7

There is no reason writers need to spend much money at all to become better at the craft. Personally I have trouble meeting the bills each month, so there is no way I can spend money to go to conferences, workshops, or other activities that, though they would be great and educational, also cost a good chunk of change. The way around this is to simply use the Internet. So many great authors, agents, publishers, etc. put out excellent blogs that teach not only the craft, but the business side, too. There are message boards out there that you can visit, which not only help you with your continuing writing education, but get you networking as well. When I do finally break out of my low income, living month-to-month lifestyle, I plan on attending conferences and workshops and the like, but until then, the Internet is the answer.