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Congratulation, that is so awesome! I would probably squeal on the phone too if they were talking to me!

Great post, Kathi! So fun and exciting. You managed to give us a glimpse into the stuff of our dreams, from your own experience, all while sounding totally humble and starry-eyed yourself. And I love the way you're loving the process no matter how it all turns out in the end. REALLY inspiring post!

Wow, that's really cool! Congrats to both of you!

What a fun post. Congratulations to both of you! It's interesting to learn about a side of publishing I don't often hear as much about.

Whoa! That is very, very exciting and cool. Wasn't this the first book that you represented, Rachelle? Or the first one that made it to the shelves? What a fairytale ending (or beginning) for you guys!

Hey, Congrats...

One question. Is the pro-co guild signatory or indie?

Hope all goes well.

Haste yee back ;-)

Wow Kathi! How exciting for you and Rachelle! I totally get the squealing part. If you learn how to do that in a sophisticated way, please let us know!

Best wishes for your project!

I would be squealing, too! Congrats to both you and Rachelle. Very exciting stuff!

Thanks for all the writerly love everyone. Glad to have friends to squeal with!

Kathi,

This is wonderful! Congratulations to both you and Rachelle! I would be squealing too :) And I hope to one day get the chance!

Happy Thursday,
Jen

What a fun thing to dream about! Congratulations, Kathi and Rachelle! And thanks for sharing.

How fun is that? I'm going to read the book. More love and laughter sounds right up my alley. Big congrats!

Good morning, Rachelle and Kathi;

Isn't it wonderful how God gives us the most amazing surprises? In blessing others with your book, God is pouring out blessings on you. If the film industry can make a movie as good as Fireproof from The Love Dare, they can do so with your book, too.

Thank you for letting us enjoy the journey with you.

Be blessed,

Lynnda

Lynnda: The Love Dare did not exist until after the Fireproof movie was made. The book was written in response to movie-viewers' requests for the book that was featured in the movie.

However, a good example of a feature film coming out of a non-fiction book is "He's Just Not That Into You."

Ah, that's fantastic news!!

So cool! I work at a Christian bookstore, and I just sent an email to our Purchasing Agent telling him we need to start carrying both of your books RIGHT NOW! :) They both look awesome. And thanks for the blog!

I'm sure you're absolutely giddy, Kathi. Hats off to you and Rachelle!

Twice in the past six months my daughter has been on a major movie set (she was an extra). Though only minor parts, we chatted with "famous" people, shook hands with producers and directors, and got good and giddy. (Well, I did, anyway.) So I understand the whole squeal factor. ;)

Just think, the movie's credits would say: "Based on the book by Kathi Lipp". Wow.

Even if your sophisticated cover is blown, we're rooting for you. You go, girl!

Kathi,

You have a genuine servant's heart. I will never forget that day in the chat room. God has chosen well.

Congratulations.

Congrats! That sounds so fun (and your book sounds wonderful, too). Now you have to prepare for your red carpet entrance to the premiere!

Very, very fun story. Congratulations to both Kathi and Rachelle!

Congrats, Kathi! It's really exciting to hear about your adventures in Hollywood.

Another well-known example of a movie based on non-fiction is Mean Girls. I'm pretty sure it was inspired by the book Queen-Bees and Wannabes.

Woot! I'd be squealing too. :-) If your book is as fun as this post, then no wonder people want a movie out of it. :-)

wow, was just passing by but reading this actually kinda made my heart start pounding. cool! will look forward to seeing the movie.

Super, super, cool!!!
I will be praying, girlfriend!

That's great news, Kathi. Congratulations! I remember getting a phone call from someone who introduced herself as the producer at a well-known movie studio, and I remember thinking, "Yeah, right." In fact, it turned out to be a legitimate call -- I was asked to be a consultant for the filming of a movie on a subject that happened to be in my area of expertise. It was a wonderful experience that I almost missed because of my initial skepticism. Ya just never know!

am sitting here at john Wayne Airport after a long day teaching writer and speakers and finally have a chance to hop on the blog. I am just so beyond humbled reading your encouragements. Who says publishing is snarky? Y'all rock.

Congratulations to you both!

A wonderful and inspiring story. Thank you for sharing Julie's story with us. Congratulations to you both on the publication.

Happy Wednesday,
Jen

WOW! How exciting is that!

OH MY GOSH!!! I am addicted to the Biggest Loser, and I, too, loved Julie. What a sweet relationship for the Lord to forge between the two of you! I am always inspired by BL, even though my self-sabotaging behaviors look different. I would love to blog about her new book (I blogged earlier last year about BL anyway, and can link it to a more recent post). I'm so excited for you to get to work with such an interesting person and--I'm sure--book.

Congrats to you both! It must have been fate that you received her query! Your girls must be so excited as well since they followed her journey.

Wonderful and inspiring post. What a gorgeous cover as well. I'm glad you were able to land a project you were so eager to pursue,that in itself is a blessing too.

I loooove reading about stories like this. What a neat situation.
Congratulations!

Maribeth:)

I loooove reading about stories like this. What a neat situation.
Congratulations!

Maribeth:)

Congratulations! What a great story!

That's pretty cool for each of you! I really enjoy the "Biggest Loser", but didn't start watching until last season. Way to go, Julie--and Rachelle!

I can't wait to read this book and try some of Julie's weight-loss tips. I loved the personal touch your story adds to the book, Rachelle. And like all great stories, yours has a wonderful twist--the agent getting excited at the name in her inbox! LOL rose

Good morning, Rachelle;

Wow! I love these God-at-work stories. He orchestrates everything down to the smallest detail. Thank you for allowing us to share in the adventure.

Congratulations to you both.

Be blessed,

Lynnda

That is awesome, Rachelle. My wife and I watch that show all the time. Although I've never had weight difficulties, my wife has struggled with her weight for years. We both find inspiration and warm feelings in the show, watching as the competitors achieve goals they never before thought possible. Congratulations and I hope this book does really well. So many people can benefit from something like this.

Eric Stallsworth

That's so exciting that you got to work with her when you were already a fan of her journey! :D

I love The Biggest Loser, and am always inspired by it. Thanks for this post!

I totally remember Julie--she was our favorite too. Thanks for posting this. Emailing you now!

How exciting! I'll bet your girls were just as excited...or don't they get that excited about your job? I look forward to reading Julie's success story.

What a thrill, Rachelle, to represent the very woman you and your daughters rooted for. I love how God worked that out for you.

Congrats to you and to Julie. I pray her book is wildly successful!

Yes, I'll be happy to blog about Julie's book. My name is Elaine A. Schulte. My address is 5929 Pine Vista St SE, Grand Rapids MI 49548-6885. My blog can be found at the following location: http://elaineselectronicepistle.blogspot.com/

Thanks for considering me.

Elaine

That story is amazing! Congrats to both of you, and best wishes for a successful launch!

Elaine 3:35, you have to send an email. Thanks.

Folks, I still have copies left!

I'M IN! I'll blog about it. I'd love to be a part of this book.

Rachel

Congratulations on your first auction and Julie for her amazing accomplishments. You're both blessed.
I've noted the book on my blog.

Congradulations to both of you!
16 months to birthing a book is pretty darn quick is it not?
Excellent!

What a neat story of God bringing you two together. Julie's story will be inspirational to read. Thanks for sharing!
~ Bethany L.

How fun for you Rachelle to get her query. It is a small world after all!

I LOVE how God brought you two together. How awesome!!!!

I can't get an iPhone here in Canada. It's not for lack of wanting, it for the OUTRAGEOUS cost, and the ridiculous monthly plan. In US (I think), and in UK, the plan is 18 months long. Here, Rogers (the official 'Screwballs R us holders), are 'offering' a 3 year plan (no exceptions), and you have to sign up for all of the features. The cost of it is 800 dollars, and monthly it's 80-200/month. Try paying for that with the price of gas. There is even an online petition going around in protest of it all. That's the end of my rant.

I love her blog! I visit all the time. I think (and here are my bragging rights), I was one of the first to find it. I love her 'wonder of the world' daily feature.

I'm glad the case was dismissed. It's a financial burden to go to court to begin with - legal defence fees - and with the skyrocketing price of everything, it must be hell.

Bunnygirl makes a brilliant point. I own an acoustic guitar (and I want to own a sratocaster electric). I play for fun - and I play a little bit above satisfactory. Let's say I recieved lessons for the next year and became amazing. I can sing (no really), because I use to be in the choir. Does that make me want to be the next...er Rihanna (unplugged) or India Arie? Absolutely not. I love to do it for fun, and it makes me feel good. But's it's not where my passion lies. I'm sure there are many writers out there who have amazing talents in other areas, but they choose to write because they get that 'thing,' that feeling when they do it. The thought of being published, of seeing their name on a book title in their favourite book store makes them weak in the knees. That's the feeling people have to hold on to and go for. I don't think if folks are doing it for money, they should bother entering. People go into law and medicine for money and then leave, because it wasn't worth their happiness. That's just my opinion though.

You could read partials on the Kindle in one hand and published books on the iPhone in the other hand! Aahhsome, as some people pronounce it!

For other applications, such as texting and e-mailing and surfing at the same time, we could all either get additional hands grafted on, or we could wait for the advent of direct brain hookups. Now, that would really be ahhhhhsooome!

Actually, it really would be.

I was going to answer, but then I saw that vieva said it all so well.

What the heck, I'll try to add a couple cents of my own. As an artist of pretty much any other sort, I can experience my work as a consumer in addition to a creator. I can listen to the music as I play it, and enjoy the interplay of the notes. I can eat the tomatoes. I can put my painting on the wall and seeing it might put me in a good mood. I can enjoy the smooth acceleration and handling of a car I have tweaked. I love to look at the hardwood flooring I've laid throughout my house, and the detailed mural my wife painted in the kids' room. Reading a novel I wrote isn't the same, though. I can't be surprised by anything that happens. I can't learn from my own insights.

Which brings me to the other side of the coin: other people can enjoy our other creative work easily, because virtually no art form requires the time investment to enjoy it that novel-writing does. Come listen to me sing karaoke. Are you enjoying that meal? I grew the herbs in my own garden.

I don't believe there is such a thing as solitary, noncommunicative art. An artist needs an audience (unless you're Emily Dickinson, of course, but I'd argue that even she had an audience in mind when she composed).

But very few people will read a novel consisting of laser-printed pages in a binder. That takes so much longer, and people don't want to spend four hours or more reading something that may turn out to be crap. The publishing is the thing that proves a work of fiction is not totally without merit. And, of course, it brings you an audience wider than the one or two friends you strong-armed into reading your ms.

You sweet thing!
Thanks for your kind words about the blog!
And Nathan, you're quite a wonder yourself.
Becky

Bunnygirl's a friend, so this is something we've discussed between us at some length.

And it explains my answers to the original question, too, I suspect: no, I wouldn't stop writing. For me, writing is akin to breathing. I stop doing it and I die (I have good knowledge of the breathing part of that statement today, in fact). Publishing's my goal, yes, but it's not the be-all of my ambitions.

Re: Bunnygirl's comments -

Though a few people are here for the good writing and many more appreciate the insider look at the industry, I'd wager most are here in hopes of getting valuable information that can help them advance their writing careers.

I think bunnygirl makes a good point - many people are content to run metaphorical marathons and say 'I did it.' But if that's the case your time would be better spent running rather than Nathan's blog.

"Everyone has a talent. What is rare is the courage to follow that talent to the dark place where it leads." (ie - rejected query letters)

Thanks for the link to Rebecca's blog--and "Hi, Becky!" from Bonnie just off Pelham Road--such talent in my own back yard (love your view of the peachoid!). Will be bookmarking this one and rooting for more sccess for the gal from Greer!

"I wonder why writing is viewed by so many as something that's not worth doing unless it results in a gloss-covered product on the shelf of Barnes & Noble?"

Good question. I think it has to do with the fact that pretty much anyone can write something, whereas not anyone can restore an engine (at any level), or play the drums (at any level) or go scuba diving. But everyone can write, to some degree.

If a person writes a story in the sand at low tide and no one reads it before the sea washes it away, is it anything more than a Zen experience for the author?

Does a story that is not shared exist?

Some things I learned from the discussions:
1. People don't believe in 100% accuracy.
2. Given a hypothetical thing people don't believe in as the base condition, they ignore the question and answer the question they really wanted you to ask in the first place.
3. Without the goal of publication, writing is simply a hobby.
4. I like my hobbies to be more fun and less work. For me, writing is a vocation. Playing soccer and drinking beer and blogging are hobbies.

"4. I like my hobbies to be more fun and less work. For me, writing is a vocation. Playing soccer and drinking beer and blogging are hobbies."

PJD makes a great point, and if it wasn't Friday afternoon I might've said it even half as well.

This is prolly grist for a different blog post, but I'd like to hear your and other agents' reactions about reading online vs. reading paper -- especially if they're read (in ink or ion) Nicholas Carr's interesting piece in the Atlantic about how the internet is changing the way we read. (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/google)

Well bunnygirl's comment is sort of irrelevant. Writing, in and of itself, is a tool and some people do work to improve their writing skills with no hope of being published (like doctors and executives who want to communicate better).

But the discussion on this blog is about writing a novel (or perhaps a piece of non-fiction). And the "what" of what's being written is important.

Comparing writing to being a mechanic or cooking in the kitchen or taking up the guitar on weekends correlates well if you're just talking about writing.

But when someone sits down to pen a novel, complete with three-dimensional characters, a plot etc, then the comparison must be between a NASA engineer, an aspiring musician, or a master chef. Why? Because those of us who sit down to write novels do so because there's at least one person (and usually billions) we hope read and enjoy it afterwards. And if we want billions to enjoy it, then the work needs to be published.

Students who labor for years at cooking school or study engineering at M.I.T. aren't likely to consider themselves successful if they're working at McDonald's or tinkering on a hotrod in the garage when they're finished.

The mechanic who tinkers in the garage either doesn't have the skills to hurdle the barriers to become an engineer or doesn't want to try. Plenty of students at the culinary institutes drop out or lack the talent to become world famous chefs. The barriers to entry in the publishing world are the same as the barriers to entry in the engineering / cooking world: they're barriers.

And hurdling those barriers will always be a measure of success.

@spirouse - You said this:

Well bunnygirl's comment is sort of irrelevant. Writing, in and of itself, is a tool and some people do work to improve their writing skills with no hope of being published (like doctors and executives who want to communicate better).

And I respectively disagree. I think it is very relevant. The point she made was in regards to WHY people write (whether to get published, to make money, etc and so on), and said that if you're doing it just to make it to the B&N gloss, it may not be for you. And I think she's right. When I first started reading this blog, I picked up the fact that there is a lot of waiting involved in writing, and there is definetly going to be some disappointment. The point that has to be seen is that not everyone who wants to make it is going to make it. So the people who are writing just so they can make the New York Times list, so their book can be discussed on TV, and all of that. They have to get real I think. It's not everyone who reaches pop-culture status. It shouldn't be the reason why people start writing to begin with. But I do get your point on a general basis.

Let me answer the hypothetical question of whether it’s worth doing unless you get that glossy cover with another hypothetical question: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Look, this is the blog of a literary agent, which offers very useful information and advice on publishing, so why the judgment on weather I am actually sincere in my love of the art? I do happen to number gardening among my hobbies, but I don’t haunt gardening blogs in the aspiration of opening a florist shop. You will correct me if I’ve misunderstood, but am I truly being asked to justify my ambition?

The iPhone is (as has been said) already an accomplished ebook reader. Indeed, it's one of the main reasons I bought my iPod Touch - basically, the iPhone without the phone part! If you jailbreak the device (easy to do), the Books app is excellent - HTML and TXT files of any origin with fully customisable font size and face. Sure, the screen's smallish but I have no problems at all regularly reading my Analog sub on it. It's just so much more portable than something like a Kindle! Different device for a different purpose. Wonderful for casual reading when out and about (waiting for a bus, queueing for tickets, whatever).

Now that the latest version's out and the iTunes store is open, there's the commercial version of Books, called Bookshelf. I've not had a chance to try it but it looks further improved, with more file formats and easier transport of files onto the iPhone.

Well worth a look. There are even two or three alternative programs out there, including the one you mention. Couldn't check it out because the link was sub only. :-(

bunnygirl makes some interesting points and I agree to some extent. Journaling, personal exploration, therapy, meditation, etc - there are many enjoyable and worthy reasons to write, but much writing is about communicating - and not just to the inner self. It would be like acting - without an audience. That said, I believe that the best writing comes from a place that is not immediately concious of the audience. Sure, you have to hone it with the eye of an editor, but fresh work cannot be born while simultaneously obsessing about the possibility of publication. That anixiety-ridden monkey needs to reside with the part of the brain we send off to the zoo when we are working.

Michael Jordan tried to play baseball once he 'retired' from basketball.

He loved baseball. He probably thought to himself, I can do this. I'm Michael Jordan. I can hit this little sucker(or fucker by the time he finished his baseball career, which was mercifully short-lived).

Unfortunately for Michael, Air Jordan became Chair Jordan, and you could hear the laughter ripple from sea to shining sea throughout MLB.

But I bet he came away from the game of baseball with new respect. Especially for the players who toil in the minor leagues, year after dismal year, trying hard, but not quite ever making the big leagues. The fringe players. And I’m betting, Michael also came to find out, that in the game of baseball, he was not even fringe player level. Here he was, aka Michael Jordan, and he couldn’t play baseball. He simply didn’t have enough talent. For baseball.

So it is with writers. I think Mr. Bransford is absolutely on target here. Yes, writing AND successfully publishing a book, takes an extraordinary talent. If you love to write, it would be prudent to have a backup plan. I know I have three!

But I truly believe each person in this life is extraordinarily and uniquely talented in one way or another, so in a sense we have the potential to be Michael Jordans in our respective lives.

The trick is finding ‘Michael’. Aggravating, I know. Like finding Waldo with a migraine headache. You just want to kill the little fucker when you do.

You want a blog that brings the medium to an artform check out Grace Undressed
Fascinating and eloquent.

re: bunnygirl's comment:

"...Why does getting published legitimize ones efforts somehow?..."

In my opinion it does. Because it's proof you've done an awesome job -- awesome enough to garner an agent, and an editor that believe in your work, and maybe readers will embrace it too.

Here's my question: Since when is writing with the goal of publication somehow less noble than writing for personal pleasure?

Am I less of a writer, or my intentions somehow less pure, simply because I'd like others to read my book?

I loved the wonders never cease blog.

I thought most posters said they'd write anyway. hum...

A few people here (Vieva, PJD, Dan & a few others) have echoed my point in response to BunnyGirl in yesterday's comments.

I don't write specifically to be published, I write because I enjoy it BUT I wouldn't waste as much energy refining a book if I wasn't hoping that maybe just maybe someone would publish it. I would write short-stories and other things. It is a hell of a lot of work doing a novel.

Publishing is the gold medal, the grand prize. Not the money - after all how many authors who have only been published once can say they are "rolling in dough" but for the acknowledgement that my story is good enough, someone else can read it and quite a few someone's thought it was good enough for other people to want to read it.

A mechanic may tinker with an engine (writer doing it ONLY for the love of it, not wishing to ever get published) but it takes a truely dedicated person to pull that engine to pieces, play with every little part, paint it, slowly put it back together again ensuring that everything is done 100% perfect and then enters it into a car show for a trophy (the novelist trying to get published). They each take two different levels of patience and have different rewards.

I never meant that writing should be done with publication in mind, but the endless reviews & additions and time to perfect the story is.

Here's the thing about writing. If you write stories, for example, you want someone besides yourself to read them. The best way to have lots and lots of people read the is to publish.

Gearheads restore cars and take them to classic auto shows, where people ooh and ahh over them. Quilters have bees, and some sell those quilts for a pretty penny. So there is some reward for the hobbiest in those fields.

It's not like writers get together for an unpublished manuscript show, or have a writing bee...

Writing bee...hmmm. There's a story in there somewhere.

PS- if you need something to read on that Kindle, I can link you up with one...that I wrote ;)I'm interested for your take on it. I'm waiting on Astak to get their stuff together, because their reader is supposed to be way cheaper than the Kindle, and just as user friendly, with e-ink screen. But they keep pushing back the release date, so I may just cave and buy a Kindle.

sprizouse---
nicely put.

Boy, some people sure get huffy when you say that getting published isn't the sole validation of one's efforts! :-)

All getting published means is you've competently told a story with current market appeal, and you've had the time and determination to ride that query-go-round until you got the brass ring. Your story might also be a work of genius, but publication isn't proof of that.

It's crazy to get sucked into the mindset that publication is the only measure of one's talent with the written word. It's an attitude that paralyzes and discourages writers, which doesn't benefit us or the agents and publishers who have to deal with us.

What if that poor writer who couldn't find a publisher for a well-written novel with an unmarketable theme simply gave up, thinking they were no good? The next novel might've been a best-seller, but neither the writer nor the agent will ever know.

That, gentle reader, is the reason I find the publication uber alles mindset so annoying. Write what moves you. Publish what the market will allow. Share the rest and die happy. :-)

I love my iPhone, even though it was one of those first run batches, so there are a few little quirks. At least I can read PDFs and Word documents without any trouble. The best part is being able to enlarge the screen for those with bad eyesight. The only drawback is their Edge network but if you can hook into wireless you're set for a quicker download.

"I wonder why writing is viewed by so many as something that's not worth doing unless it results in a gloss-covered product on the shelf of Barnes & Noble?"

And yet I have an alternate story, as told to me by a former professor, Joseph Heithaus: Joe is a published poet, an MFA/PhD with a tenure position etc, and yet it was his brother's poem -- something sweet, almost childish with rhyming couplets -- that their father remembered best. He praised Joe for his work and his accomplishments, but really, he like his brother's one poem best, better than anything the published Joe had ever done.

I think it's really a matter of who your audience is. Of who in this world gives you validation. I have a sinking feeling that the people reading this blog may (in part) be here for Nathan's wit, but they may also be here because writing is not enough for them, writing for their fathers and families isn't enough, that they either need or want that outside validation.

Perhaps not all of us can get validation from our immediate families. My family is so supportive I'm shocked. And yet they're not my best readers because they don't always have the same training or background.

My father told me a particularly harrowing story from the biology lab the other day and I said "huh, really?" but he spent an hour on the phone to a colleague 100 miles away retelling and reliving the story. Perhaps, as writers and solitary workers, we feel that publishing will give us colleagues (or at least agents) that we can tell these stories to.

bunnygirl asked:
I wonder why writing is viewed by so many as something that's not worth doing unless it results in a gloss-covered product on the shelf of Barnes & Noble?

Because when you look at a friend's terrible painting, you only have to look at it for a second. A novel is a much longer investment in time when you're the friend of the writer. I wouldn't want to subject anyone to my terrible writing if The Sage told me I could not write.

Publication is tangible evidence of a book which other people enjoy...as are book sales for a published author.

Bunnygirl's a friend of mine, and her comment gives excellent food for thought.

What constitutes success, anyhow? Writing books that will be read a hundred years from now? Achieving publication by a big house? Publication by a reputable small press? Cultivating an enthusiastic following as an e-book author? As a self-published author? Writing books you're proud of but which are never published in any form at all?

If you write novels because you love writing novels but you never achieve commercial success, is that wasted effort?

Here's my take:

As Bunnygirl said, achieving publication is largely about writing with reasonable competence something that agents and/or publishers think will sell.

Sure, it takes talent and hard work to be a professional writer. I don't know why people think "I can write a publishable novel" straight out of the starting gate when they haven't read widely, when they've never written anything but papers for school, when they aren't willing to work hard at the craft. That's as ridiculous as somebody who can barely poke out "Chopsticks" on a piano expecting to be asked to play a concerto at Carnegie Hall. But just as there are many kinds of music, there are many kinds of writing. And there are all kinds of people out there to read it, too.

Just as food ranges from gourmet fare to McDonald's, so does the literary world, in its way. Does one type of novel represent "success" and the other type "failure?"

Well, it depends on whom you ask, doesn't it?

Every now and then, I see on the writers' boards people who ask some variant of: "What's the quickest way to write a bestseller, and how long will it be before I can expect to rake in my millions?" These are the people who probably won't be writing even two years from now. Reality will bite them in the butt so hard that they'll have to run, screaming, far, far away.

But people who write primarily for writing's sake -- with other rewards being secondary -- are the ones who are more likely to keep at it, and keeping at it is the only way to achieve success, whether you define success as self-fulfillment, modest publication, big-time publication, or books that will be read many generations from now.

Even if a writer gets published by a big house, publication is far from a Magical Success Talisman. There are plenty of first novels that don't earn out their advances, putting their authors in an untenable position for future novels.

And even if a writer does well commercially, will her books be read in ten years? Twenty years? Forty? Most books populating the bookshelves today will be forgotten in the years, decades, centuries to come. Should their authors then be regarded as people who wasted their time?

All my blabbing distills to this: don't write for money, and don't write for fame. And for goodness sake, don't live for money, and don't live for fame. Write for love. Live for love. In this all-too-short human life, love is the substance, and everything else is gravy.

Thomma lyn,
nicely thought out -- but what about an author who has no one to love or be loved by? That author may be seeking to leave a mark on the world through her/his work as a replacement for the denied love that you (validly, I must say) claim is a superior thing for which to strive. We're all driven by different things, and not everyone is lucky enough to be loved as you suggest. Immortality may be sought through words when there is no posterity to carry on a name/memory. (It's no guarantee, of course, but the seeking may drive a person.)
The Glaswegian poet Edwin Morgan (now 88), admitted he would have liked to have had children, but, as a gay man of parenting age at a time when homosexuality was still illegal in Scotland, he was never able to work out the details and reached old age childless. (He also has no nephews or nieces.) He has readily admitted several times that his poems are his offspring. He is so famous in Scotland that his fame should outlive him at least a few decades, but who knows after that?
Shakespeare's direct bloodline died out with his grandchildren, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), but his words are his immortality. ("So long lives this and this gives life to thee" -- and, ironically, even more to the writer.)
I am not being very concise here, but my point is that, although your sentiment is very noble and beautiful, not every writer can write or live for love. At the risk of sounding like an amateur psychologist, I'll say that writing, like other things, may very well be a substitute for this human craving (for both love and immortality).
People's motives are different, but craving publication and recognition may very well be sought as a substitute for some other kind of belonging that's not happening elsewhere.
(For those of you where this is NOT the case at all, please don't assume I'm pushing this on you.)
My apologies for the length of this comment.

Paperback Writer, I'm sorry -- I guess I should have been more clear in my last paragraph. By "love", I meant "for the love of writing", more of a joie de vivre thing, being in love with life, doing what you love and loving what you do.

I don't have children and will never have any, I don't have nieces or nephews. I have a husband who loves me and other folks who care about me, but by and large, I've always been and in many ways continue to be a lone wolf.

And one of my motivations as a writer is, yes, to leave some kind of legacy, a mark on the world; at least, that's ideally what I'd like to do. It's a dream of mine, though as I pointed out there are no guarantees.

The biggest thing I was trying to get across in my comment is that because there are no guarantees (whether in writing or in life), we should try to focus on the journey at least as much as we focus on the destination. Because even if the destination does not materialize, we will have learned from and perhaps enjoyed the journey.

I hope I'm making sense. :)

(sorry for the deleted comment above, that was me... I needed to fix then repost my comment for conciseness)

Just checking back in today... didn't mean anything harsh or demeaning when I said "irrelevant" earlier.

'Twas a hastily written comment, that looks a smidge insensitive to me now. Sorry if I offended you bunnygirl.

Oh, sorry I misunderstood you, Thomma lyn.
And you did much better at being concise than I did.

In regard to the hobby point bunnygirl made. In some respects she is correct, it is rather odd, but unlike most hobbies, people who make writing a serious 'hobby' are generally holding on to the hope that one day it will become a profession. Yes, writing is done for the sheer joy of writing, for most anyway, as are most hobbies, but most hobbies do not hold that carrot out there withing seemingly easy reach that might take it beyond the realm of hobby. That said, those who write with only the intention of publishing are at a serious disadvantage.

JDuncan

A lot of hobbies turn into professions: photography, music, woodworking, restoring old cars, making movies...writing is just another one.

Whoa. Nathan, I found this site after Googling "novel word length" in a friendly domestic debate. (I believe you write what tells the story; The Beloved strives for what fits the genre.) Thanks so much for encouraging intelligent discourse about the art and business of what few people may dispute as one of the more passionate pastimes.

I think the ambition associated with "the hobby" is fueled by fear of humiliation. Writing is appearing naked in public. You might enthrall people with your chops, but you'd better believe they're smirking at your shortcomings.

Speak Coffee: I have a sinking feeling that the people reading this blog may (in part) be here for Nathan's wit

Ha ha! Oh, come on -- Nathan's wit isn't THAT bad. :)

To Thomma Lynn and a paperback writer: Thanks.

People have touched on many aspects of bunnygirl's comments (often with grace and insight), but I think there's one aspect that has yet to be fully explored. I think part of the reason writers feel such a need for validation in regards to their writing, and why so many others are so ready to judge them based on the achievement (or lack thereof) of that outside validation, is the nature of writing itself: it is a medium of language, a communication of oneself to the outside world. I don't think there's is anything so inherently tied to the self as language, as communication (in whatever form it might take), and on account of this there is nothing so revealing, nothing so tied to one's ego and self-esteem, so tied to our own sense of ourselves. We are, in some ways, our language: whether it is the words we put on the page or screen, or the ones we use to converse with others, or the ones that echo only inside our own heads. Our thoughts are given form by words, and our personal history, our sense of ourself, is in some ways nothing more than the narrative we work up of our own experiences. We are the stories we tell to ourselves.

And on account of this writing, putting out such a focused communication, is more inherently tied to the self than any other activity. And thus to be judged wanting as a writer is to be judged wanting as a person, or so I think many people feel. How much of ourselves is in our writing? So much, so much... even if we put down only the most far-fetched and fantastic elements of our outer dreamworld. And so nothing is so harmful as that judgment of the self. When people ask "Are you published?" what we often feel as writers (whether justly or not) is that underlying question: "Are you worthy?"

A song, a painting... these are expressions of the self, but people can judge them easily. It's good, or I like it... but writing is a little different. It takes time to understand, as some have mentioned, which most people we meet are unwilling to do. But even if they do happen to read our words the depth of self involved leads to a greater risk. If you hear someone sing poorly, or see someone paint poorly, you can say they can't sing or they can't paint. But you can't say they're stupid, or impractical, or needy, or unperceptive, or shallow, or racist, or misogynist, or weak, or cowardly... but writing opens us to this and to much more besides. It opens us, rightly or wrongly, to valuations of the self. To be published offers a writer the chance to say "Yes, see, I am worthy." It's a chance to defend the self.

Now the question is whether there is much truth to this belief, and I'm not sure there is. A little, perhaps, as there's a bit of you in everything you write, but that only goes so far. You are more than what you write, however well or badly. There are other and better ways to calculate value and worth. I once remember a professor of mine being blown away by a certain famous author's work, and one day she had the opportunity to meet him (I'll spare his name) and she found him to be a horrible person, utterly at odds with the beauty and humanism of his work. The reverse holds true, too. Writers are much more than a bad novel, or even ten bad novels. Sadly, though, I think many writers get caught up in this belief, and knowing and understanding how it operates doesn't always help. I feel it, a little, though I try to disregard that feeling.

It's only human nature to want that validation, that outside confirmation of worth (whether real or not) that we can hold up and say "Look at this! Look at what I did, look at what I am." What we have to remember is that though we might want this, we don't need it.

My best to everyone,
Bryan Russell

Bryan -- what an insightful comment. Excellent points!

Thank you Brian, well said.

Bryan I 'knew' I was spelling it wrong!!

As to people being here for Nathan's wit = actually, I love the comments from everyone who posts.

If you could go to every commenter's blog and read what they have written (and some of them post snippets of their work), would you?

What if it was an excerpt from a published work, would you then?

People do write without any desire or chance of being published. I'm not saying writing isn't unusual in the percentage of people who want to do it "professionally" instead of as an amateur, as a hobby. But there are also a lot of people out there who embrace writing not as a means to be published but as a means to tell stories - and to enrich a community and build friendships, much like with other hobbies.

Fan fiction is especially popular because there is a built in community of fans, and I think the sheer number of people participating in that changes the ratio of aspiring professionals vs. amateurs. But in addition to fan fiction, you also frequently find writers writing original fiction for audiences online, playing in original or fandom-based roleplaying games, doing things like NaNoWriMo, etc.

And then there's the stuff you don't see. My best friend writes dozens of modern fairy stories for her little sister. I once wrote a novelette for my friends dramatizing what would happen if our college were attacked by zombies. Another friend wrote a play where we were all romance novel characters. We can't be the only ones who do this - and I know other people tell their children stories before they go to bed and to keep themselves amused on long car rides.

I wonder if the statement What I find interesting is how many people think the only reason to write is to be published, and that publication legitimizes ones efforts somehow isn't implicitly building into the worldview it marvels at, by not recognizing the abundance of ways in which people write and tell stories without thinking of publishing at all.

Shauna, I agree. The question is a bit of a straw man. Or at least, it begs the question of whether the assumption at root is in fact true. I think it feels to us like every writer wants to be a "professional" because that's the crowd most of us here run with, and so we're assuming that's all that's out there. The enormous popularity of fan fiction is one sign that that's not all there is. Ditto for free online erotic fiction.

I would take it one step further, though. I would say that not everyone who seeks to sell a novel is seeking to be a professional. What we all seek is an audience. If you have a novel-length work, publication from a royalty publisher is the main way to acquire an audience. But most writers who do publish through royalty publishers never make enough to quit their day jobs, and I bet quite a lot of them are satisfied with that. My wife doesn't want to quit hers. I could go either way. I wouldn't quit tomorrow if I suddenly landed a megadeal. I've worked hard to get to the position I'm currently in at my day job and want to reap the rewards of that work for at least a little while. If all you write are short stories, even if you succeed in selling them to paying markets, you pretty much *are* a hobby writer. You will never make enough to live on with those sales. The huge number of short story markets that pay in writer's copies, or that pay under $25, reinforces this.

I just can't agree with the notion that there's something mercenary about seeking professional publication. Most of us who do that, I believe, are not doing it for the money. When I think about the money I have spent on books on writing, books on publishing, writers' conferences, readers' conferences, well, heck, even if I sell a book my first advance probably won't put me in the black. I just finished buying airfare to Readercon, on my credit cards, even though I'm pretty much broke. I can't be doing this for the money.

I would argue that those of us who want to be published through paying markets are still hobbyists. We're just seeking the audience where it lives. I don't need a recording contract to find an audience for my singing, but I pretty much do need a publisher to find an audience for my novel-length works.

I think the question stirs us up so much because most of us view "mercenary" as being on the opposite end of a spectrum from "artist," and when you suggest that people are only in it for the money, you are really calling into question whether or not they are artists at all.

-o-

icqb, Nathan gets so many commenters, there is no way I could check them all out. But I do check out quite a few. Generally people who agree with me, I'm embarrassed to admit. And people who pique my interest. From this thread alone, I've been, so far, to the blogs of paperback writer (because I see her posting on a lot of the same blogs I post at), vieva, and rebecca ramsay. I'll probably check out more if the conversation continues. I do make a point of looking at other blogs besides those of agents and famous people.

I blogged about this the other day.

Part of it is that most writers don't view it as a hobby. A hobby is something you can put down. I can't stop writing, so the natural conclusion of that is if I'm going to do it anyway, have to do it, I may as well do it for a purpose, and that would typically be publication.

But it's not the only reason to write. There are people with the same drive who don't draw such a conclusion.

That said, I quilt. I can not work on my quilt for months and it doesn't bother me. So I don't expect to enter any bees or fairs ever because it's just a hobby to me.

I think the problem is in the use of the word "hobby" applied to writing. If it were just a hobby, then seeking publication does seem a little odd in most cases, but if it's not a hobby, I can understand it.

To JES,
Your blog will NOT let me leave a comment!! Every time I try, it automatically kicks into refresh, so I gave up after 5 tries!
I'm glad Thomma lyn and I gave you food for thought. Thanks for telling us both. I did enjoy reading your blog post.
Bryan,
very thoughtful stuff, there.
Joe,
well said. thanks for dropping by my blog; I didn't know you had because you didn't leave a comment -- but I'm glad to know.

To me, this web site (link below) sums up the road-to-publishing reality in a way the sum total of agent blogs never could:

http://www.spywriter.com/litagency.html

He's a published thriller author, and he has listed every one of the 400+ query responses he sent out for the world to see, along with statistics on how many rejects, how many requests for partials, etc.

FYI: 220+/400 agencies never responded at all, some never even repsonded after requesting fulls, even after followup requests.

Paperback Writer: Sorry for the confusion... I do get comments from others (including Thomma Lynn, today) so I'm guessing there must be something going on with the word-verification thingum on the comments page; I see a few attempts today to post a comment without entering the correct pair of words. I'll check into it, though, and thanks for the heads-up (and also, again, for the conversation that kicked this whole thing off).

Going back and re-reading most of the posts I think it is quite funny, everyone seems to be arguing different sides of the same coin. I think where Bunnygirl is coming from (and sorry if I read this incorrectly) was how many people answered that they would stop writing if the seer told them a definate NO.

However I think it is then a bit of a leap to see it as only doing it for the publishing. Because no such seer really exists (no one agent, publisher etc can 100% tell you it is not going to happen) I will keep persisting. I may send a thousand queries and get a thousand form letters for a number of different books and ideas before I finally go "you know what, maybe I can't do this professionally" and find some other avenue to expend my creative juices.

But at the end of the day I think pretty much everyone here is an artist, whether they decide to attempt to publish or not.

April Hollands wrote:
Because when you look at a friend's terrible painting, you only have to look at it for a second. A novel is a much longer investment in time when you're the friend of the writer. I wouldn't want to subject anyone to my terrible writing if The Sage told me I could not write.

I had a similar view for years. I'd show people my art, which I knew wasn't professional quality, because they only had to look at it for a second. Inflicting creative writing was something else. I didn't want to do that to people.

However, that only stopped me showing people stuff. It didn't stop me writing it in the first place. Hiding work because you believe you're terrible is a different kettle of fish to not writing because you believe you're terrible. The interesting point is that more people seem to fall in the latter category.

As far as I'm concerned, I believed the seer for years. So it wouldn't be a huge change to believe the seer again.

I tell people who ask for writing advice and getting published not to confuse the two. As so many have already stated or alluded to, writing can be a very therapeutic and personal experience. If you enjoy writing, then write until you can't lift the pen anymore. Publishing a novel or writing for a living is a wonderful way to earn money but don't confuse it with the art itself.

Rick

I don't mean to go off-topic, but as Nathan mentioned something about the court case in NJ, I thought it was OK to ask:

The defendant claims to hold a doctorate. Does anybody know in what field, and from where? I once saw a board of trustees candidate claim to hold a doctorate from an Ivy League university. The claim was proved false, and the man stepped down before he was sued for fraud.

Bunnygirl and I are in agreement. I often post about the satisfaction I get in doing a lovely painting and hanging it on my own wall.

My brother plays the guitar for his little daughter and in the local bar down the street. It makes no difference to him -- he's doing what he loves and his craft improves as a result.

Why does my friend JC play Nana the dog in a local production of Peter Pan? Because he loves to sing and dance, although his day job is graphic design.

Some of us may be satisfied with our accomplishments outside our usual daily duties, but others are ambitious enough to push ourselves a little further each time, to see if we can do better. Some may need to take their calling and make it a mission, like my sister-in-law who is one step from having her musicals produced on Broadway.

There's nothing wrong with ambition. It's what drives us to be better at what we do. I just wouldn't want anyone to give up in despair only because they didn't hit the 'big time'.

My first book is available in Kindle, by the way. Care to be the first sale? I can be number 1,999,999 out of 2 million.

'S okay with me.

Often quoted, but appropriate - sorry if its a bit inaccurate: "Many people want to be writers, but few want to write." Eudora Welty

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what it is I'm after in regards to publishing my book. While writing it, I didn't want to 'taint my writing with the prospect of commercialism' so I did zero research. Once I finished, I learned I'd been lying to myself all along. I had always been thinking about what readers would want. I had always known I wasn't going to keep it to myself and I wish I had been real with myself about it so this whole world wouldn't have been such a culture shock. I never knew I'd have to become so obsessive about getting it out there or that I'd have to have to committ to foreplay with an agent before they'd even ask me to dance. Is it wrong that the goal turned from personal fulfillment (while writing it) to one of money and acknowledgment as soon as I finished)

Doreen asked, "Is it wrong that the goal turned from personal fulfillment (while writing it) to one of money and acknowledgment as soon as I finished)"?

I don't think so; every human has shifting goals and its natural that goals change. I think it's totally possible to write something for the pleasure of writing, and then realize that maybe, after all the work, you'd like some recognition. There's nothing wrong with wanting the outside validation of an audience.

Relative to Bunnygirl's comment, I'd say that there is an expectation for writer's to publish from outside the writer, even if they're doing it for pleasure. One of my professors even said, "You can't call yourself a writer until you're published." (Um, excuse me?) With those kinds of expectations (the constant questions from family, etc. as others have mentioned), it's hard not to feel the pressure even if that's not the direction you started out going for... I totally agree it's important to write for the love of writing and realize that most people won't get published, but I also think it's a shame that so many people (even among those I respect) seem to consider a work "validated" just because it's published.

There seems to be an underlying discussion (relative to the painting, the cooking, the gardening, etc.) about what constitutes "art" and the assumption that if something is acclaimed enough to make it big (or even make it in the industry at all) that it must be better than what doesn't. (Bunnygirl I believe touched on this too.) Just because a book makes it to a publisher doesn't mean it's a great piece of literature, just like some head chef may be considered brilliant by many when I still may prefer my grandma's home cooking. There is nothing objective in how we define art (be it the art of fixing a car or the art of writing a book). Too bad so many people insist that there is...

Screenplays or novels--which is harder to break in with?

Nathan,

Found your blog yesterday and I'm really enjoying it, but there is a question that is gnawing at me.

Identifying your "genre" seems like a really important part of getting your work noticed and finding the right agent. My question is what is the best way to handle this part of things if your genre is a bit muddled?

Maybe this shows a weakness in your manuscript I don't know, but I find that the stuff I am working on tends to cross some lines and mix genres. Not that I'm mixing fantasy and sports and interior design but I'm not sure it fits perfectly into one of the standard genres.

If this is the case what is the best way to present it to the agent so that it makes sense and how would you recommend finding that agent? Or is it best to just stop being a flake and try to make your work fit a bit better into the industry nomenclature?

Thanks

Hey Nathan, just voted for you as Hottest Guy in Publishing...
http://gawker.com/tag/poll/?i=5016820&t=vote-for-the-hottest-guy-of-book-publishing-2008#poll_=ADMwUTM
think we should get the rest of the crew voting for you, maybe you'll win a set of steak knives or something...

Anon,

I'm not Nathan, but I think you'd want to think of it like this:

If youwalked into B&N tomorrow and found your book on the shelves...what section would it be in?

Take the name of that section, and use it for your "genre."

If it could fit in more than 1 seciton, generally go with the section that appeals to a wider base of readers. But if it's YA-anything--it'll be YA.

If it doesn't belong in any section, then you've written somehting that may not have commercial potential. Or just go ahead abbd label it "Literary" and buy a big bottle of whiskey.

Thank you for mentioning the Author Advocate Defense Fund, Nathan!

Dawn O'Bryan-Lamb
fund administrator

Doreen, I think you've nailed it. As a writer, it's awfully romantic to think of oneself as an artist whose first purpose is to tell ones stories and to hell with the market and publishing. I write for me, right?

My wife, however, is a realist, not a writer. She often reminds me that if I want to be read, I have to write what people want to read. I don't believe my art is any less pure because I want to be read. I want to succeed in the market.

I also want to remain true to myself. What I can't afford to be is a romantic. As you said, you're lying to yourself if you think you're going to write a novel and then stick it in a drawer or just show it to your friends. Very few people invest years of their lives into something as massive as a novel without expecting some form of return, whether that is a glossy cover and an endcap at B&N, or the recognition of legions of Buffy fans. Our rewards come in many forms. There is nothing mercenary or impure about acknowledging the desire for the recognition and appreciation for the quality of your work.

Nathan, thanks for all your info. Was wondering if you are still not taking on middle grade projects, unless they blow your mind?

The first time I started to dare to share writing was through letters.
I was so flattered that people have kept my letters all these many years and told me they cherished them.

Someday, when my husband and I are dead, someone may want to publish our love letters.

These are all private writings though and very satisfying.

These differ from writing meant to be shared widely.
But, yes, not everything is valuable or made more valuable by public display or funding.

I know I am coming into this a bit late, but....


The first point I would like to make is that most people are a touch myopic about their obsession. For someone who is into writing enough to find writing blogs and groups, writing is the end all be all.

As far as the original statement, "...why writing is viewed by so many as something that's not worth doing unless it results in a gloss-covered product.....?"
The same things goes for actors, though the gloss-covered product is a opening night poster or DVD.
You never hear someone saying they want to act only for small plays. The goal is to be famous, on Broadway or on the silver screen. There is "no" second best.
The main difference is that people don't think of acting as a hobby.

There are people who write for themselves. Who make up stories for kids and never write them down. They do not have a goal of being published and are happy as they are.

On the other-and more popular-hand, writers have limited feedback options. There are people who get enough feedback in writing/critique groups that they never move toward publishing. Those that do want more exposure.

Humans are rather self serving beings. We do things for praise or reward. Whether the praise is internal only or external only matters in terms of degrees.

Most people do not think of hobbies as career choices.
The few who do spend as much time and energy toward that goal as writers do toward getting published.

When I started knitting I thought it would just be fun projects for my own enjoyment. Then I started getting praise for my finished objects. This feeds the praise crave and I started sharing pics of my knitting with more people, joined knitting groups, found an online forum and have since learned that one can make a living off of knitting. All I have to do is write up great designs (kind of like programing), build a 'name' or 'brand', and then get my patterns published. After that I have to get a few more books done, start teaching classes and then people will pay for me to travel to their location for classes and signings and stuff.

Motivated people always want to reach the top. Everyone wants maximum praise.
Writers want to be published (which gives us the largest audience and possible fame).
Actors want to be the lead (in the largest audience format of their path and possible fame).
In knitting there is the goal of being published and being thought of as a source of knowledge and skill.

Oh, I disagree, Quasipsyco. I know *TONS* of people who do community theatre with no hope or aspiration of ever being professional actors. Ditto people who love to sing karaoke every week--not because it's what's happening at the bar, but because they love to sing--or sing in talent shows, again with no professional aspirations.

Thanks for that Kelly Spitzer link, Nathan. Extremely useful. I'm doing a little of that already.

Back to work . . . .

Rebecca's blog is great - reading it just makes you chill out & relax. South Carolina is awesome - you should visit (& then swing down here to my home town of St Augustine Florida). Maya's blog is a daily ritual for me & should be for everyone interested in the publishing industry. Have a great weekend.

Great interview with Kelly Spitzer, and I'm glad you provided the link. But to be fair, MOST of that stuff (the big stuff) CAN'T be done by authors. Her book was chosen as a "lead title" for the publishing house, so while most authors have 200 galleys printed, she had more than 1000 given away to create buzz. When the publishing house is paying to give away ipods with your book cover on it, that's not something the author can do en masse, the way the house did, and can. Yes, it's about marketing yourself. It's also about the fact that she was chosen to be lead title.

anon-

Factors outside of her control definitely played a role (as it does for all bestsellers), but what I liked about the interview is how she showed how she put herself in a position to be the one who was chosen to be a lead title. Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into it, but her willingness to market and her efforts up until that point played a role.

There's nothing anyone can do to automatically make a book a bestseller, but it's all about increasing the odds any way you can.

a wooden spoon...that's nuthin'! :)

my pit bull ate multiple comforters, a window sill, a few remote controls, many shoes...the worse was when she ate a pack of BC pills and I had to call the animal poison control hotline about that one.

recently, my shepherd ate - literally ate (and thankfully passed) - an empty cat food can. doesn't seem like a pleasant chewing experience to me, but what do i know?

i have to agree with Rebecca that walking the dogs does tend get the mind moving, too!

Read the whole blog, Anon. Sounds like that dog could give yours a run for its money. :)

Fabulous interview from Kelly... Lisa provided a lot of insight and very helpful advice.

Aloha Nathan and Thanks!
Am thrilled and blown away!
(okay thrilled at least- no wind today- Orion is sitting peacefully next to the dock...)

http://www.writequickly.com/author/menu.aspx?pu=false

I know this is a little off topic, but what do you think of this website? I, personnally, think it's stupid and a waste of money. It says that it can show you how to edit your novel in less than an hour, which doesn't seem right, and that you can buy plots from them for 50c. Am I right to think that this is a stupid scam for unknowing wannbe authors?

Congrats to P. Wood. It's probably one of my favorite reads in a very long time.

Rebecca Ramsey, my new myspace friend! *wave* Your blog made me laugh, especially when I got to the post about your son and the Doritos. I have son just like that! (The dog posts were quite something as well.)

PW -- I'm a huge fan of Lottery and I'm so freaking stoked for you and that short list. The Orange Prize is H.U.G.E.

Nathan, thank you so much for sharing the Kelly Spitzer interview with your readers -- Kelly's a real gem. And I'm glad you saw something good in it.

If anybody's at the point where book pub day is looming, I strongly encourage you to check out Bella Stander and her Promotions 101. http://www.bookpromotion101.com/bp101/consult.html

She also visits at the Backspace Writers' message board once a month to answer questions.

Thanks again, Nathan! I am a big fan of the blog and have learned so much from you.

Great info, Nathan. Thanks.

Lisa and Kelly rock! It makes me do a little jig to see them getting ink here.

The Bushmills helps, too.

Mr. Lopez? Is that the YA author in which you refer to? If so, excellent! I look forward to it.

I think you're right about how much information you can give out. The internet - and blogs - are a public arena. So many people who don't even post read. As the saying goes (in the computer age), you never know who is 'lurking.'

Congrats Patricia! She's such a sweetie.

Lisa is a blue boarder (Verla Kay), it's great to see her doing so well.

My previous comment didn't publish, so writing it again.

Mr Bransford, if you don't like talking about new deals and clients, can you please put cover links or banners (some of which you already have)on your blog? Please?

Oh Nathan.
I just finished reading Enduring Love.
It was impossible to put down.
It was impossible not to see how the protagonist loves his wife.
It was gut wrenching and so tense.
it gave me NO relief.
None!

Some novels I put down from chapter to chapter and think, I want this to last forever.

But not this.

I needed to be out of my misery.

anon-

Wow, what a coincidence, I just finished it a few minutes ago! I had to put it down to read many other things, but was able to finish it today. I agree with you -- so gut wrenching. Joe was the perfect McEwan protagonist -- completely precise, incisive... the contrast between him and Jed was fascinating.

McEwan is just incredible. I'm always in awe when I finish his books.

Just one more comment...I noticed tonight that JA Konrath has reposted a real winner when it comes to authors who are about to give up...

He's worth bookmarking.

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2008/04/for-those-about-to-give-up.html

Re: Enduring Love, The Great Man, and Sex and the City

I finally bought McEwan's Enduring Love (in paperback used online) – at the library they had a whole shelf of McEwan's books, but Enduring Love was not one of them. I started reading 'Atonement' at the library, but had too much of a bee in my bonnet about Enduring Love, after reading the excerpt at Amazon.

Re: The Great Man by Kate Christensen – I thought it was a good book, not a great one – unfortunately, I was only a little ways into it before I thought "this is a geriatric Sex and the City," so I kind of ruined the reading experience for myself, i.e., it seemed more predictable than it probably was.

Then last night on Masterpiece Theatre, Kim Cattrall appeared in "My Boy Jack," about Rudyard Kipling's son who died in WWI. In an interview afterwards, Cattrall talked about WWI, history, the romance of the soldier ("we show the brutal reality," Cattrall said), and how she imagined war fever in the UK was similar to that in the US after 9/11 "if you weren't waving an American flag, you weren't patriotic." Yes, I admit, I'd have loved to hear that out of the mouth of Kim Cattrall's character on Sex and the City.

**end of tangent**

Nathan, staying tuned is making me sleepy. Please correct this. (Either by posting that guest blog or forwarding coffee vouchers.)

If I were an agent-I'd want a client who is open minded. I don't want someone to shut down and not want to listen to ideas or advice about her career or her book. Communication is the key to any good relationship.
She should be willing to do the publicity work. There's a lot of competition out there. After the book is written everyone needs to sell it. Be proactive here.
Be a grown up. I don't want a whiner. Okay, sometimes I'd hold your hand, but I'm not your mama.
Know that I'm working for you and its a process. Things don't usually happen over night. Selling the book benefits both of us so please believe I do want the book to sell.
Okay, would I make a good agent?
:)

I think I'll print this out. It's exactly what I'm looking for. Especially the honesty part.

Aimless is pretty much on target for me.

First and foremost, a client who can take instruction and criticism. No one is perfect. They need to want to improve and grow. They must desire a career. They took the time to research their book and get it proofed and critiqued before they sent it to me. Even then, they are willing to listen to advice. Someone who can put the ego and hurt aside and do what it takes to make their book the best it can be.

Honesty.

Communication. If the agent is doing something they are uncomfortable with, they ask. They don't blog about it or whine at conferences about it, they ask. Then we both have a frank discussion about the situation and explain how we feel and why we are both doing what we're doing.

A sense of humor. It's going to be a bumpy ride, so they need to be resilient. Being able to shake things off and laugh is a good thing. Being able to write a humorous story about it is even better.

A client who has unique ideas. There's nothing new under the sun, as they say, but there should be something unique about the voice, the ideas, the writing. Something to set them apart from the crowd.

Someone who isn't a one-trick pony. Instead of obsessing about the book the agent is trying to sell, they are busy working on the next project. They hope they live to be 190 years old so they can finish all the books bottled up inside.

Someone I'm comfortable with. I don't need another friend, but I want to feel at ease talking to them and being around them.

Someone who doesn't take themselves too seriously. Prima donnas are a pain. Life is too short to put up with arrogant, difficult people.

Someone who realizes even agents have bad days and doesn't get upset easily.

Patience.

Someone who has enough confidence in me to let me do my job. They know I am doing everything in my power to sell their book and build their career. They should also have enough confidence in themself not to be angsting about a gray hair on the same day they got a zit. They did the best they could with the book and they followed whatever criticism or suggestions we made to make it even better, then they set it free.

Someone mature enough to act professional regardless of their age or experience. I don't want to hear about how they went to an editor's room in a cute little french maid's outfit to deliver a bottle of bourbon wrapped in their latest pitch.

Someone kind. A sincere thanks and, even better, my favorite chocolates when something goes right is a good thing.

Someone willing to promote themself and their books. Someone who does whatever it takes to build a successful career, short of the cute french maid outfit routine, of course.

Julie

Jessica
First, thanks for a great post. If I were an agent, I'd look for a client willing to do the work: to study the craft and hone their skills, to keep their rear in the chair day after day doing the thing that helps writers get better--writing.
I'd want a client willing to take...and apply...instruction, yet confident enough to keep their own individual "voice."
I'd look for someone with the emotional strength to stay the course despite rejection after rejection, because just as baseball managers are hired to be fired, writers write to be rejected.
I'd probably have a laundry list of other attributes I'd like, but these come immediately to mind.
By asking us to list these qualities, you've made me engage in self-assessment to see if I'm being fair to my own agent. I hope I am. Thanks.

Someone who had a realistic view of the publishing industry or at least was willing to learn about it.
cmr

"I'd want a client willing to take...and apply...instruction, yet confident enough to keep their own individual "voice."

I agree.

Beth Shope mentioned a Donald Maass workshop at the Surrey conference. He said you have to think of every possible objection a reader would have to a scene and remove them or explain them. By the same token, you need to do it in a way the voice and story aren't destroyed. It's a difficult balancing act.

The firsts workshops at Books and Writers has had some interesting comments about writing. At the end of the day, a writer has sift through the comments and apply those that make the work stronger and still retain their voice.

I listened to some songwriters in Nashville, discussing how they write songs. One went through a hilarious story about how he came up with Blue Clear Sky. Everyone he pitched it to objected to the line, "blue, clear sky," but he stuck with it. George Strait told him, "Son, that's not the way we talk in Texas. You're going to have to change it." He stuck by his guns and Strait recorded it anyway.

Sometimes you have to know what is important and what you can afford to lose.

Julie

I like the brutally honest part. That would be the number one quality I'd search for.
I'd also look for someone dynamic, someone with a small list, and someone who is a fast reader and able to give advice on the business side of writing. Someone who is in for the long haul, who wants to help me develop my career, and most importantly - who isn't afraid of several different genres and pen names.

I liked Jessica's post, and was very quick to notice it involved all the things needed to sell a novel froma business standpoint.

*Honesty about the market.
*Editorial advice if needed.
*Contacts within the market.
*Being able to Communicate.

I couldn't agree more. What a great business model and mission statement because the emphasis is on BUSINESS.

At one point I had an agent that was TOO personal. It seemed for this person there were no business boundaries. She's spend an hour phone call bragging about her latest vacation and then twenty-four hours later strike like a cobra because she didn't like a line of dialouge or chapter title I'd written. The implication was that I should have been able to read her mind. It was never about what the BOOK needed, but what she wanted. It was just so icky, and unheatlhy.

So from my experience, If I were an agent looking to build a client list, I'd want someone who understands that while being friendly is important, this is a business and it shouldn't be treated as a place to act out on the whims of your own mood swings and emotionalism.

If I were an agent,

Good question. I'd want to work with someone who was flexible, willing to learn, willing to listen, fun and friendly when appropriate, businesslike when appropriate, and someone who knows when each is appropriate.

I'd want a client that wasn't a luddite, who was excited about her own career and determined to do what it takes to build it.

And someone that can write a story that I'd want to read.

This has got to be the best agent blog, hands down, out of the ones I read. A LOT of insightful, good comments!

If I were an agent, I would want a client who is mature and professional, someone with a good attitude who is willing to go the extra mile and work hard. Business should always be a two-way street, and along the road to developing a great comraderie, it's extremely important to make sure your working relationship is just that.

As an author, I know that after investing a great deal of time into something, it's easy to get frustrated if you're having trouble editing, because you've put so much into it and just want to be done. If I were an agent, I would want someone with a really great attitude, who has a sturdy disposition in the face of setbacks nad roadblocks.

Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference.

Great blog!!!

Great blog.

Quick comment off the top of my head -- I can't work with anybody who doesn't have a sense of humor.

An open mind to change. Patience.

I'm about to start the submission process myself, and besides what you note, I'm looking for a couple of things:

Enthusiasm- first. Goes along with belief/confidence. Love my book, and love me. Sense great things in my future.

Experience- I'd like to see they've done well for the clients already on their lists.

Knowledge- the publishing industry is changing by leaps and bounds. I need someone who knows a lot about the industry as it is and also as it could be.

Your question asked about a "dream" client, so, to me, that speaks of the icing on the cake.

I have a student who, no matter what, I can always count on to have a good lesson. No matter if he's prepared or not, in a bad mood or not. A lot of that is his talent, but there's something else I can't quite put my finger on.

No matter how horrible the day is, no matter if I'm so tired by my business that I feel only a foot away from quitting, no matter if I'm practically in tears, when this boy comes to his lesson, I feel great.

Unlike any other student I've ever had, he somehow brings out the best in me. He reminds me what I love about piano and teaching. Even when I'm so tired I could just die, by the time he leaves, I'm energetic and enthusiastic again.

I don't know why. I don't know how. And I don't know what it is about him.

But for my dream client, that's the icing I'd want on my cake.

In addition to your great list, I'd add Contracts.

I'd want an agent that could ferret out any new line in a publishers contract that would be a major negative to the writer's career or book.

I think the agent qualties you stated are upper most on all author's list of what they are looking for in an agent.

The honesty would have to go both ways to make it a mutually working relationship.

And most writers have a pretty tough skin from receiving rejections. I know I do, and I would be interested in hearing how an agent can help me build my career and make my writing stronger.

Contacts,Comfort, and Growth are the things I would say would make or break my signing with an agent. Because those three are what ulimately will get both the author and the agent where they want to see that client.

Intersting Blog!

I'd want a client who understands that writing is a career, not a hobby, that deadlines are exactly that, not merely something to "shoot for." Someone who takes criticism in the spirit in which it's meant, not as a personal attack, and who has the patience to let me do my job as agent. I'd want a client who communicates well and lets me know if things are not working, but who also says what does work. I'd also want a client with a sense of humor when things DON'T go as planned or when life gets in the way. A professional attitude, confidence in their work and the willingness to change with the market would also be important. However, as a client I don't necessarily HAVE these qualities...

This is all fine and dandy, but I have a question. As a writer looking for an agent, how do you know if an agent has the qualities listed? For some of them, only time will tell and only if you are working with that agent. For example, I am not going to be able to tell if an agent is going to tell me that a contract stinks when I am doing my agent searching. So some of these things are frustratingly difficult to discover until you are already working together.

If I were an agent, I would seek a client who is as willing to put the time and energy into making us both as successful as possible. I would be looking for someone to join my team and be an upstanding teammate who tries to move us both forward in our careers.

--Jean Oram

As an agent, I would want a client who treated their writing as a profession, not just a hobby or simply a passion. I would want someone that had several books in them, not just a one hit wonder. I would want someone down to earth and open-minded. I could never deal with a self-absorbed crybaby "artist" who refused to edit anything because it would damage their inner-child. And obviously, I would want someone who wrote exactly the kinds of books I love to read.

Jean, when I signed on with my agents I simply asked questions. Some things you can tell by visiting. Some things only time will tell, but it's like any relationship, it takes time and work.

The lady who handled my children's book was an absolute gem. If I could find another one like her I would be in heaven. She didn't sell the book, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

I loved that she was completely honest with me and didn't give me false hopes or dodge questions. She respected me as a professional and just laid it on the line.

I guess another thing that's important to me is that an agent enjoy the genre I work in.

JW

“Talent cannot be silenced in the heart.”

Talent is eternal. It hears the muse with one ear, wisdom with the other.

It takes talent to recognize talent. The agent reads fragments of “us” and when her senses tingle, she reads more. When the dinger goes ding and nothing happened inside her gut, she picks up the next potential on the stack with no regret. Aside from the obvious business structure, the agent must possess the ability to read between the lines. What is she looking for? How does she know?

Talent. When an idea she never knew she had is suddenly staring back at her from the pages, that is talent recognizing talent. Agent and writer united. The agent sought an echo of herself and found it.

Comparatively, it’s like having a craving that you can’t quite put your finger on. Until the taste hits your lips and the universe melts.

Like glass, if shattered of its original form, talent can be melted to recreate itself—over and over again. Imagination born of true talent is the most resilient substance of human nature. In the agent. In the writer. Talent cries, suffers, falls—then gets back up to fight.

Talent is humble, honest. It is restless and diligent. It will ride the tide or die trying; therefore, it is courage.

Agent or writer, I would seek talent.

I found Bookends through my Writers Market Guide. Read every agent entry—twice—and went right back to this agency. Opened the website on instinct, not by convenience, and not because B is earlier in the listing. I read the lines then between the lines, and I knew: Even if Bookends rejected me, I had found a place to be myself, to be with others who shared the same hopes and fears, and to learn from the best.

I like it here. It is the comfy slippers and deep ponderings at the end of my day.

Talent. Breathe it in; it’s bliss.

Oh, and Spyscribbler: You are truly wonderful. Hope you stay for the journey :)

Dream client? Someone creative and productive, that believes in their work but is willing to take editorial advice. Someone who's willing to do the publicity scene, put themselves out there - after all, they've already opened a vein over the keyboard. I'd want someone willing to interact with their readers and think outside the box for marketing opportunities. Someone who believes in being themselves, as hard as they can, and who believes in their stories and in the craft. I would want a client who sees writing as a calling, and doesn't just want to sell a book, but build a literary career.

I fall for nerds in TV shows and movies. Fox Mulder was my TV boyfriend in college because I loved how smart and focused he was (not to mention David Duchovny was pretty cute). In numbers I like Charlie, actually. Again with the whole nerd thing. I even had a thing for Egon from the Ghostbusters when I was a kid. I should probably buy one of those "talk nerdy to me" shirts.

As for book boyfriends, Gwydion from the Prydain Chronicles when I was a kid, and then Captain Wentworth from Persuasion and Silk from the Belgariad series in college. Now I'm not sure. I fall for lots of book guys, but it always varies (I think it depends a lot on the author's writing as well as the character itself).

OMG, I had so many TV boyfriends! Right now, I have both Sam Winchester and Clark Kent dangling on my chocolate goddess behind. No book boyfriends, but Paul Walker was my movie boyfriend.

Huh...that would be a good question to ask my characters. In honor of Teen Read Week next week, I'll be posting interviews with the main characters from my novels. If you'd like to ask my girls a question, pop on over.

My sister's a big fan of both Numb3rs and Supernatural but I confess I'm so lame about watching TV I've never seen either one...

However, my TV boyfriend is definitely The Doctor - he's extraordinarily geeky (anyone who refers to books as weapons pretty much wins my vote straight away), he's funny, incredibly energetic, tolerant (mostly), and saves the Universe on a regular basis - what's not to love ? (Plus when he looks like David Tennant - I'm dead of love !)

Second in line would be Giles the librarian from Buffy - but he's quite a long way down the ladder !

For my TV boyfriend, I'll have to go with Agent Seelye Booth from Bones. As for a book boyfriend, give me any of the protagonists from the Dick Francis books especially Lee Morris from Decider, but ONLY because I just finished re-reading it. Growing up, it was Joe Hardy from the Hardy Boys, especially after I saw the TV show with Shaun Cassidy (I am such a geek!)

I suppose it's only fair that I weigh in, since I'm to blame for your obsession.

My TV boyfriend *was* Woody Hoyt from Crossing Jordan, but then NBC went and cancelled it, the meanies. Now I guess it's Dr. Chase from "House." Or maybe Sam Winchester (but Dean has better taste in music).

I liked Eddie from "The Courtship of Eddie's Father" (yes, I am OLD). And as a mom, I had a tiny thing for Steve from Blue's Clues. And I'm not alone, so don't look at me that way! He seemed to relate to preschoolers but at the same time make little jokes that only adults would get - like an Elvis Presley impersonation thrown in for no reason at all. I am currently crushing a little on the guy from "Band of Brothers" in a new NBC show called "Life". And then there was Melanie Mayron's young boyfriend on "ThirtySomething" (NOT Gary). Ooh, what WAS his name???

rosepixie: Oh yes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=getG19TQ0go OMG I totally forgot Silk and he was totally my book boyfriend, also!!! For some bizarre reason, I always pictured him as Original! Starbuck, Dirk Benedict. Yes, I am that old.

Celise: a most excellent question for your book girls. And Sam? Excellent choice. Have you seen Plastic Winchester Theatre?

Mary Beth: Seely is made of awesome. David does a great job with him; it's custom made for him.

Carlie: How rude of your tv boyfriend to break up with you because of cancellation! See, usually tv boyfriends are so dependable: they are always there, week after week, they are cute, dependable, funny.

Chris: I am assuming you mean TV Eddie, and not Movie Eddie? Tho young Ron Howard is a cutie. Best. theme. song. Ever. I have it on my iPod. And that would be Lee, as her young boyfriend, and he was so cute, and WHY isn't 30something on dvd yet? Screw the music rights.

As you well know, my TV boyfriend right now is the Doctor, for all the reasons that Michele said. As far as book boyfriends . . . hmmm. I can't really think of any at the moment (a horrible oversight, I'm sure) but I tend to be a serial monagamist kind of girl: I have one fictional boyfriend, and that's it.

BTW, about halfway through Long May She Reign, and OMG the awesome!!! Thank you so much for talking up EEW so much, because seriously, LMSR is just amazing.

Michelle, yes, Giles goes on the TV boyfriend list.

But as for the Doctor/Tennant, I know that both you and Melissa have already claimed him, so, alas, while he can be my TV good friend, he cannot be my tv boyfriend; but I do admire your taste.

And, yes, Melissa, isn't LMSR superb!!! Let me know what other books of EEW's you want to read, and I'll bring them the next time I see you (hint, hint, invite wanted to new apartment!)

Gasp! Brideshead Revisited. Man, my sister wouldn't let us anywhere near the TV when that was on!! Anthony Andrews... that takes me back.

Hey hey, Anthony Andrews was also in the last 1/2 of the 5th season of "Upstairs, Downstairs." Well, now you may as well watch the whole season...:)

I too loved Danger UXB but my favorite thing with Anthony Andrews was The Scarlet Pimpernell. We show it to our sixth graders each year as part of a unit on the French Revolution.

Upstairs/Downstairs is also wonderful -- I get the complete set for my birthday and am slowly watching them so we havent' gotten to the Anthony Andrews sections yet.

I've been enjoying your blog for several months -- am planning to start my own book blog before the school year starts. Any Advice?

This is such a fantastic show on so many levels. It's a perfect dramatic bookend to Fawlty Towers as an example of well done British television. What was going on at the BBC in the late 70s that they were able to make the best TV ever?

At the risk of getting too far off-topic... I just watched Brideshead, which one was Anthony Andrews?

I didn't realize people were watching it for the hunks, I thought it only appealed to lovers of drunken misery and misanthropy.

Ahhh...you ARE a soul sister. Love Anthony Andrews. I loved Danger UXB!
Loved him as the Scarlet Pimpernel, "Sink me!"

I was surprised and pleased to see him as Tommy Beresford in a Miss Marple (the new ones with Geraldine McEwan) I think it was in season 2. He is obviously older but oh, that voice!