How to use this Page

Thanks Miss Snark for pushing me in what I know in my heart is the right direction.

Quick question: Isn't the term "obsessive (unpublished) writer" the height of redundancy? I sure hope so.

Thanks again for your advice - now on with the process of trying to write/publish another bit of tripe.

More Clooney news, this time comparing him with Archibald Leach:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/film/2007/05/is_george_clooney_the_new_cary.html

Will it never end?

mmmm . . . cookies . . . killer yapp has got his priorities straight!

Those two comments might be saying the same thing, just in different ways. The second agent might also think that the market isn't big enough for your book, as it is currently written. Had you chosen the so-called brutal voice it might have made the book more commercial and thus satisfied both agencies.

Maggie adds: eat cookie dough.

"Chanage"? Is that a French word that rhymes with "triage"?

From an objective but uninformed perspective -- since I haven't read the novel -- it's entirely possible that both agents were spot-on. ie, there's not a large market for the novel in its current form, but if it were made more brutal, it might fit into an existing shelf at B&N.

Either way, the obvious answer is Miss Snark's - finish number 2 before spending any further effort on number 1.

The first agent who rejected my full said "Well written, but not for me."

The second said, "interest in fantasy adventure is waning and this doesn't move me enough to get behind it."

The third said, "The main characters' relationship needs to be further developed. I don't care enough about them."

The fourth said "it's perfect the way it is," and offered representation.

Go figure. Just like movies and music, literary taste is subjective.

I don't know why you'd want to stick your head in the oven, however, after someone said nice things about your work and that they'd like you to submit your next project.

I have NEVER heard of an agent saying anything like that just to be nice. They're already overwhelmed with submissions as it is.

I agree with your gut instinct and Ms. Snark, write book number two! You can only become a better writer by writing more.

Not to worry, youngling.

Readers can read books faster than we can write 'em.

Write well and you will sell.

And the next time you fling a bloody awful book across the room and declare "I can do better than THAT!" siddown and prove it.

Worked pretty well for me.

New authors are published all the time; I know of a few over on the Absolute Write forum, so it can be done (and, yes, they met with rejection at first, too).

What it takes is dedication, perseverance, and the ability to tell a story in an entertaining way (among other things ;-)).

Good luck.

~JerseyGirl

Ha! The online writers community is way smaller than the writers community as a whole. It's just a wee little subset.

Miss Snark,

I am going to have to agree and disagree to your answer too this email.

Here is what I would have answered:

"Is there room on the shelves for more books?"
There's always room for more books.

"Do I really have a chance at landing an agent and a publishing deal?"
Not with an attitude like that. If you are questioning your ability then there are 2 things you can do. Practice and get better so you don't have to ask this question or quit.

"Does anyone?"
With the right attitude, practice and persistence then yes.

If only one person in every thirty thousand bought your book, you would be considered a success.
the math:
There are 300 million people in the USA. divide by 10,000 books and you get 30,000 people.
That's better odds than the lottery.

It is easy to be overwhelmed. Educate yourself first. The link http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2007/05/victoria-strauss-learning-ropes.html is a great place to start.

If you're writing only to get published, you'll likely quit in frustration.

If you're writing because you love the craft, and you'd continue to write whether you get published or not, you stand a chance.

Educate yourself about the industry, yes. But first and foremost, concentrate on your craft.

I'm a slush pile success. It can happen, and it's not even that uncommon. But by the time I landed an agent and a book deal, I'd put 10 years into my writing.

What I know for sure: If I lose my publishing career tomorrow, I'll still be tapping at the keyboard.

That's better odds than the lottery.

Just about everything has better odds than the lottery.

Twenty years ago when I was still in college and began querying agents and submitting short stories to editors I found much of the same advice being given then that new writers are seeing now. It's always been an uphill struggle for writers. The only differernce now is the internet and the fact that we don't have to visit the post office as often. And, getting help and advice through blogs like this one makes life better for new writers, too, because it's free.

But there have always been "would-be authors" who are "querying and getting rejected" and there probably always will be. You have to persist, and sometimes bite your tongue, but the more you write the better you get.

Hey, just because all the other writer wannabes suck doesn't mean you do.

Yeah. I got some room on my shelves for more books, soon as I move the philodendren.

Watcha got?

Hey, I'm working on my third revision of my query letter. Guess what happens if, once I finalize it and send it out to my next batch of agents, it doesn't get any bites?

I'll start work on the fourth version.

Just look at the Deals emails from Publishers Marketplace. There are a handful of debut fiction writers in nearly every email.

Did someone say LOTTERY?

I was going to comment but everybody pretty much said what I was going to say except for this.
I write because I must right. My primary motivation is for me to express myself and only secondarily for readers to read my words and hear my story.
Being published is an added bonus. If I did not have an agent or if my book was not sold I would still be writing.
I still AM writing.

Just read Miss Snark for a while and you'll see a pattern:

"Write well."

"Just write well."

"Stop obsessing, new writer, and write well."

"There's no secret, grasshopper, just write well."

"Don't worry, just wr-- WHAT? YOU HAD A FUCKING AVATAR OF YOURSELF IN YOUR LETTERHEAD?? ARE YOU CRAZY? I TOSS THOSE QUERIES RIGHT AWAY! WHAT KIND OF HIGH-MAINTENANCE EGOTISTIC FUCKTARD ARE YOU???-- Now, where was I? Oh yes, write well. Lord knows why you writers just can't get that simple message through your head."

Miss Snark: Mistress of the one-word response that speaks volumes.

I think what you're experiencing now is that "cripes" moment when you cross from the realm of the clueless to the world of the educated aspiring author.

It's like you've been jogging along in solitude, expecting the finish line is right around the corner. And then you turn that corner and see that you've been straggling along behind the Boston Marathon - and not only are there 24 miles left to run, but there are thousands of people ahead of you, running toward the same goal. And some of them have been running for years. It can freak you out. It can make you feel like the whole thing is hopeless.

It isn't.

There may not be any shortcuts, but you CAN move to the head of the pack and get published. Just keep taking steps in the right direction.

Having just landed an agent through querying two weeks ago I can share with you my secret.

Work hard and work harder.

You must learn your craft - and write the best book you can. Be persistant. You will get rejections but don't see them as negative. Learn from them and move on.

Avoid the pretty writing and just tell a good story.

You'll be surprised just how far that will take you.

Congratulations, Tracey!

And to the OP: I feel your pain. It's a long road, but we'll get there.

You just can't quit. I told my mother I thought I would stop sending queries out for my novel after 100 of them.

When I told her I landed my agent after I had queried about 150 of the, she asked, "I thought you were going to quit at 100."

I said, "Had I done that, I wouldn't have an agent now, would I?"

Not that I'm a published novelist yet, but I also live by these two mantras/quotes. The first, by Cindy Proctor-King: It takes Talent, Persistence and Timing to make it in this biz.

The other: Henry Ford said: If you think you can do a thing, or think you CAN'T do a thing, you're right.

Keep at it new person! And believe in your work. Hang out here and in other writing online lounges and you'll learn a ton! (and meet great people cyberly and sometimes in real life)

Take heart, have hope, listen to Miss Snark, and maybe a little "original" Dylan:

In my craft or sullen art
Exercised in the still night
When only the moon rages
And the lovers lie abed
With all their griefs in their arms,
I labor by singing light
Not for ambition or bread
Or the strut and trade of charms
On the ivory stages
But for the common wages
Of their most secret heart.

Not for the proud man apart
From the raging moon I write
On these spindrift pages
Nor for the towering dead
With their nightingales and psalms
But for the lovers, their arms
Round the griefs of the ages,
Who pay no praise or wages
Nor heed my craft or art. --Dylan Thomas

The world needs MORE good writers!

I think the publishing industry would be in better shape if they only published quality. There is an amazing volume of garbage on the shelves at your local big box or chain bookstore.

If you want to learn about GOOD writing, get to an independent bookstore as quickly as possible.

Don't forget to use your library card to checkout books Miss Snark says to read. :-)

Above all, keep writing.

Shawn - you owe me a new keyboard. :-)

I just love Miss Snark's one-word answers. So powerful and to-the-point. And so true.

I hate it when my posts seem to be flushed down the great blogger toilet. The world is so cruel!

Hey, It's okay to stress and worry. It's part of the great writer's though process. Besides, it fill the time while you're waiting for your rejection letter.

There's a chance if you do your homework. If not you pretend to win the Gather.com contest. Yur relatives still think you're wonderful.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976972430

Every possible writing violation is present and accounted for. Telling; infodumping; adverbiosis; saidisms and no trace of a story present.

Oh, well, attribute all the misspellings in my previous post to being too tired and over medicated. I can spel sumtimes

I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to see some huge, burly guy using the name Sally Louise at a book signing.

"I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to see some huge, burly guy using the name Sally Louise at a book signing. "

I'd buy the book.

Thank you for pointing out that a paranormal thriller is not the same thing as a paranormal romance.

All the paranormal thriller authors (I'd have called these urban fantasy, but whatever) are female? Really? Ever heard of Jim Butcher?

I'm getting the feeling this guy's not very well read within this genre, which often bodes ill for the writing.

P.S. Butcher's Dresden Files are on the Sci-Fi Channel now...in case you don't like to read.

Leaving aside the issues Miss Snark handled so well, I can assure you that many a man has been able to publish in romance. There's a small but growing number of men who attend the RWA national conference every year. Don't let your plumbing discourage you from writing the story you wish to write.

"I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to see some huge, burly guy using the name Sally Louise at a book signing."

LOL. Me too and I don't even read this genre.

It's called urban fantasy and men write those, too.

You can hang at the bar with Jim Butcher.

He'll be one of the speakers at a big romance convention in Houston, BTW. Men tend to be outnumbered by women a few hundred to one at those events. Apparently he has no problem with that.

Not only is it called urban fantasy, some of us who write it are put on the paranormal romance shelf, even though romance takes a back seat to the rest of the book...so it does get confusing (and that's the publisher's decision on how to market it).

So I can see why he might get the categories mixed up. :)

Yasmine

"Urban fantasy?" Huh. That's a new one. Can we get any more balkanized in this genre?

I suggest the poster check out Charlie Huston's "No Dominion" and "Already Dead" starring hard-boiled vampire detective Joe Pitt. And there's some pretty decent paranormal thriller stuff out there from some chap named Stephen King.

i agree with evenly and others. you really need to be up on this/these genre(s) and jim butcher's name regularly appears alongside hamilton's, harris's, and harrison's. whether it's being called paranormal romance or urban fantasy, readers can tell if it's in the same flavor family.

i do think, though, that if you are a guy, your work will be called urban fantasy no matter how much or little romance is in it. but this type of work is really hybrid in terms of genre, so it's a wild world out there in category land these days. even within these new categories, there's a range of approaches to genres. for example, to me, there's a difference between the work of the above women writers and that of, say, tanya huff and kelly armstrong, and i think it has something to do with the writer's treatment of sex and male/female relationships.

but that's grist for some other blog, because i know this aint what miss snark is all about. i'll finish by saying you really need to read widely in this market to be aware of these differences between treatment of genre elements.

"Urban fantasy?" Huh. That's a new one.

New, eh. Then how come I had a story in Urban Fantasies, edited by King & Blackford, 22 years ago.

Oh, wait. That was in Australia, so it doesn't count.

Reminds me of a time I was waiting in a parking lot for the vet to open. A guy in pick-up pulled up and got out. Muscle shirt, tight jeans, and construction helmet. (And a very nice body, but that's another story.) Macho strut - do you need more description? Cradled on his arm, being tenderly petted, was a tiny kitten.

My impression was that he knew he was a man, and so didn't worry about it. If any male is worried about labels because he writes something romantic, don't. Frankly, I like reading from another point of view.

I'm in love with that kitten guy.

It is extremely difficult to contain your enthusiasm and anxiety as you await a response. The snake what-if game MS mentioned is just one of the steps. We writers also love to reread and evaluate every single word contained in the often brief email correspondences we receive from agents. But that's part of the fun. Pat yourself on the back and reflect upon those times when receiving an email message from an agent was just a dream!

I'd grab a cappuccino and plow back through the rest of the manuscript one more time, making it as perfect as you can for when that agent requests the full! Keep picturing yourself reading the follow-up email that says, "Send me the whole thing."

Good luck!

This seems to be more common than you'd think.

I rarely have e-mail problems. Yet, when it has come to agents and submissions to literary magazines, I have had problems about five times in the past year. In one case, I contacted the agent (after waiting, of course), but she didn't receive my e-mail asking if she got my manuscript. I waited again, but eventually e-mailed her using an entirely different e-mail address. That one went through, and no, she hadn't received either e-mail.

Another agent had some filtering software that filtered out my e-mails for no apparently reason. When I followed up, he hadn't received anything, and subsequently had his filtering software disabled.

I don't know why this is. It is suspicious, but gives just cause for worrying about it. It happens, more than you realize.

But, alas...the waiting time period applies, regardless.

I don't know why, but the 'did you get it' Email gave me an image of a car full of kids screaming 'are we there yet?'

Is that how it feels, I wonder?

It feels like nagging. And nagging by someone who hasn't paused to consider that their work isn't the only thing I'm doing. Or even in the top ten of things I'm doing. Or even in the "do it and you'll be better off".

Reading stories on spec (ie the slush pile) is necessary but not urgent.

It doesn't feel that way to y'all I know, but it's still how it is.

I am so very much NOT cool.

When/ if I get to this stage with an agent I will have to stuff an ice pack in my shirt for a month.

Next time, blind copy yourself on the email. You can use the same account or a different account.

That way you know it got out to the Internet. From there, the chances of it not getting to the recipient are miniscule.

Doesn't do anything about filtering software, but at least you know it made it to his/her server.

If the question is whether it was actually sent, vs. filtering at the other end, you can always cc yourself on outgoing mail. Set up a separate free e-mail account on yahoo, gmail, or hotmail, and cc yourself on all correspondence with agents. If you receive a copy there, then you'll know the e-mail was sent.

You'll never know if the mail was spam-filtered at the other end, but that's where climbing Everest comes in.

I sent a "Did you get it?" email this morning.
The origional query was dated Jan 18.
Just the same I worry it may be interpreted as a nag.

E-mails do get lost in the system. The UDP protocol does not guarantee delivery (unlike TCP) and neither does the network layer IP protocol. Moreover, if a message somehow gets started looping through the system, the network "ages" it, decrementing a counter every time it loops. Otherwise, a software error could cause messages to loop eternally. After it "ages" so many times it is discarded.

Send it twice at spaces of one hour with an explanation why you are re-sending.

"If he didn't get it, he'll ask for it again."

As always, Miss Snark gives excellent advice. Also, sending a copy to yourself by bcc or cc is a terrific idea to show that it did get out to the Internet.

Then start climbing Mt. Everest, or maybe start working on the next story to keep your brain occupied.

I just came here after dealing with two undeliverable mails that were deliverable two days ago, but not four days ago. I just finished tweaking because my email to Jamaica to get confirmation for hotel rooms (after buying my air) didn't make it. And you need to wait about 2 weeks on mails to them as it is--soon come, mon culture. If I ever have the opportunity to send samples pages, I will most humbly beg to send by snail mail, deny having access to the net if I have to, and take my chances with that.

See, this is one of the advantages of hosting your own email transfer agent.

If the need becomes overpowering, I can grovel through the server logs and see for myself if the email was delivered into the agent's mail queue. Of course, I can't know whether the agent is a moron and hasn't configured their spam filter properly, but that turns out to be a self-reinforcing system: agents who are that stupid about computers and email are not going to want me for a client anyway.

The UDP protocol does not guarantee delivery (unlike TCP) and neither does the network layer IP protocol. Moreover, if a message somehow gets started looping through the system, the network "ages" it, decrementing a counter every time it loops. Otherwise, a software error could cause messages to loop eternally. After it "ages" so many times it is discarded.

Send it twice at spaces of one hour with an explanation why you are re-sending.



Sean Lindsay, is that you?

Seriously, this is very dumb advice and the notion behind it is wrong in like six different ways. Email delivery is more reliable that postal mail delivery. The vast majority of dropped emails happen because of poorly configured spam filters. You, as a writer, don't have any control of your prospective agent's mail filtering rules. If they're idiots, there's nothing you can do about it except try to avoid querying idiots.

Stop obsessing about it.

I was reading along and got hung up on the snake example. Ya see... My kid sister and I went to the zoo... and she stood to close to the plate glass window and the anaconda...

It is too painful to talk about...

Oh man! This absolute thing happened to me. I got the “send me more” email while I was on vacation. I was trying to access my work account remotely in some little hotel business center in Canada. I had to send two emails (attachments were too big) and one got bounced back. I sent it again.

I waited one week to ask if she got the second email the second time I sent it. She politely told me she did.

I blew it, didn’t I? Miss Snark. You just ruined my weekend. (I’m joking – your advice is so great and I love it. Thanks.)

I was thinking of mentioning an incident earlier this week where an author didn't receive an acceptance email for a short story, so they were a bit confused when the editor emailed them directly to ask if they were OK with substantial edits; but that might just worry anyone who is waiting on an email so I won't mention it.

I waited and waited, and finally (about 6 weeks after the maximum website time) I emailed the agent. Two emails went unanswered (several weeks apart). I sent another from a different email account, and was told, "gee, I remember the title, but don't remember the work. My response probably got lost, but feel free to send again, and I'll look at it as soon as it crosses my desk." This time, I DID send a 'did it arrive?' email (at least a week after hitting 'send') and got a prompt, 'yes, you'll hear from me very soon.' That was about a month ago. I've pretty much kissed it off.

Any agent who *requests* material and can't be arsed to reply back, or send an auto-reply saying "We received your email, now keep your bloody pants on for 30 days or until I get to the bottom of my gin pail, whichever comes first," is not someone I want to work with. I'm in IT sales and am well aware of how unreliable email has become because of spam filters. I think an auto-reply for a query letter is nice too, but I can forgive an agent for not replying to *that*. However, it's just good manners to acknowledge receipt of information *you requested*. I have to confess I'm really surprised at your answer, Miss Snark.

Anything after "yes I got your email now @#$% off until I finish my gin and marathon George Clooney-shag," before the 30 days is up is suitable reason for beating a writer to death with a clue gun.

Lunchies, drinkies and bail are on me.

Probably in that order,too.

I'd be the coolest in the cooler if Miss Snark posted bail for me.

Bail?! The agent of my dreams, and she's only a fantasy!

Is it sad that I'm tempted to misdemeanor merely to call Miss Snark for bail?

Oooh, are there any minor crimes that involve George Clooney? If not, maybe I could just TP Mel Gibson's house. Though certain cops may be more inclined to join than arrest me...

Lunchies, drinkies and bail are on me.

Why didn't you say so before? Now I know I need an agent!

"a group of lizards is a lounge"

HA! You caused me to spew coffeee with that as, at the same time I was reading your blog, my darling sadistic feline walked through the door of our tropical home with yet another lizard clamped in its jaws.

Wish I'd thought of that one. Thanks!

My impression is that expenses are way down with the advent of electronic submission. Attaching a doc file to an email costs nothing compared to Fedex, etc.

I initially snail-mailed my proposal to my agent, and she asked me to email her a copy so she work on being able to share it more easily.

My agent deducts expenses such as photocopies, postage, and messenger fees. I don't recall if she has a specific cap, but the deductions have always been reasonable so it's never been an issue.

And I know this because Miss Snark told me so when I asked her last year after finding the clause in my contract: Legitimate agents will NEVER ask for a check upfront from the client. Whatever that small expense fund might be ($150, $250, $350), it will be deducted from the income; meaning, don't pay an agent upfront for expenses. Expect to see those expenses deducted from the first check you receive on a book that has been sold.

It's nice to know that an agent will bail you out of jail. I'm supposing that you'd have to be a good client to get that service. Or perhaps a real money maker. What I'm wondering is how many writers do end up in jail and for what?

And if you live in NYC and your client lives on the West Coast, do you wire the money or do you come pick them up?

Thanks for the advice river falls - always good to hear it from someone on the other side of the fence...

Re: snarkling-
From dict.die.net:

"-ling \-ling\ (-l[i^]ng). [AS. -ling.]
A noun suffix, commonly having a diminutive or a depreciatory force; as in duckling, gosling, hireling, fosterling, firstling, underling."

Sorry. I've been a Deadhead, I've been a Parrothead, I am a gearhead; I could perhaps call myself a Snarkhead, because I do enjoy your site, and head as a suffix denotes enthusiasm. Snarkhead would denote loyal following *without* causing one to feel belittled, or cute. So no ling for me. Whenever I've read the word, I've imagined a bunch of fuzzy little sheeplike creatures following a woman in high heels with a yappy dog who thinks he's a shepherd and nips at the heels of said fuzzy creatures to keep them in line. No thanks. But thanks for the site and the information, anyway.

If Miss Snark would free me from my obligations to my owner by paying a large ransom (say large enough to self-publish my new semi-biographical novel, Don Juan as a Goat) I'd be most grateful.

Send the money to a numbered Cayman Islands account (I'll send you the number in an email) and after I get it, I'll go on the lamb (only figuratively, of course; I don't DO sheep).

I'll abscond to a petting zoo located near an airport in ... say ... umm New Jersey. You can pick me up in a limo and we'll fly off to Brazil. They don't extradite goats from Brazil, do they?

Then we can dance the night away in Rio. It doesn't matter to me at all that you only have two legs and no hooves. At least it's something I can overlook. ...

Bill E. Goat

PS: My mistress has seen this and is forcing me to admit that I have two left hooves, don't dance well, and need a bath.

She's also making me tell you that I don't have a numbered account (yet). And she is making me say that if you want me, you can have me for free, no ransom needed, though you should still free to send me the money. And she's repeating that she won't pay to have my wonderful, biographical, and explicit novel published. She says, in her most insulting way, that the world doesn't care how many French Alpines I've known and loved. I'm certain she's wrong, aren't you?

Dear Miss Snark, you must rescue me from a life of servitude to a mean Princess who doesn't appreciate my literary talent and who doesn't understand the difference between a great smell and spoiled cabbage! Bath indeed!

If I don't respond to your emails right off, don't worry. I'm hiding out until the threat of soap and water dissipates.

Y'know I checked three dictionaries just now and only one of them defined "murder" was a flock of crows.

* The New Oxford American Dictionary 2nd Edition has no mention of crows under "murder" (you can check, it comes with mac OS X).

* Webster's New World Dictionary 3rd College Edition also mentioned no crows.

* Dictionary.com, based on some American Heritage dictionary, defines "murder" as a flock of crows and also includes it in a note on synonyms for "flock".

I've been doing this a lot since starting to write a novel. It's starting to bother me when my dictionaries don't agree, Miss Snark.

(This post was brought to you courtesy of Dan Procrastinating, Ltd., a subsidiary of DanCo International.)

So let me see if I've got this pecking order right; editors buy lunches for agents who buy lunches for writers. Sounds like the editor has the roughest deal, and the agent spends the most time at lunch.

Word verification: hyxob - a very old fashioned candy.

I don't know, Scott. "Snarkhead" sounds a lot like "snakehead." You know, those evil fish everybody wants to eliminate?

How about "Snarkerati"? "Snarkophile"? "Snarkoholic"? "Snarkster"? "Snark-struck"?

How about Snarknik?

I think your correspondent may mean pr0n, which is an alternate way of spelling porn so the message (at least in theory) gets past e-mail filters, corporate firewalls, whatever.

Of course, that's old skul now.. ;-)

And the numbers are where you've used the letter o instead of the number zero within a several digit number.

I love "dear dog," btw. Makes me laugh every time. (I'm easily amused.)

And really, Commenter, if you're going to be paranoid, stick with the rest of us and try to figure out the arcane meaning attached to the word verification. Today's stumper: bhteuarw. Either an insult, or an obscure unit of measurement. I'm going with the former.

pR0n has shown up several times in the comments. Julie is right about its origins, and now it has devolved into gamer geek speak.

Joshilyn, closet gamer geek

I know when you fall off the wagon, you're supposed to get right back on. And dog knows I've tried to quit. But how the hell do you reprogram yourself to stop saying the F-word?

I love Dear dog, but I've heard from people in the know that "using the Lord's name in vain" does not mean use as a curse word, per se. It means using His name out of vanity, as if you have an inside track to Him, such as "God will strike you down for doing such and such." You're human; you can't know what God thinks. I think you're safe in that respect.

But Dear dog is cute. I picture KY perking up when you use it.

I love Asterix - he's Gaul with super-human powers who fights the Romans - comic book stuff.

Pron, cron, mlik, and a brewing strom... They're all lovely ways to spice up a potentially boring conversation. At the least, it test to see if the person you're talking to is actually listening.

Verification: reydy - Mr. DeVille, I'm reydy for my close up now.

I actually use "Dear Dog" in speech now. It gets me some weird looks from people.

Can't figure out my word ver origin - rsizitwx - a new acne medicine in wax form, perhaps?

foggidawn said, "...if you're going to be paranoid, stick with the rest of us and try to figure out the arcane meaning attached to the word verification. Today's stumper: bhteuarw."

ha ha, that's a variant on my paranoia: that I'm targeted for especially long word verts. Glad to see yours today!

You are so funny. And I'm impressed with the substitution of "dog." Not that that was your goal or anything. :)

It heartens me, because so many people throw around God's name like it was candy at a parade. I'm no prude by any means, but I'd much rather hear the worst swearing than someone use God or Jesus wrongly. Just a personal thing. I know not everyone feels the same.

Condolences, because that sounds very frustrating. If it's any comfort, lots of writers go through a bunch of rave rejections and then finally sell their book - I did, for one. Never mind. Your writing is clearly good, so carry on with it and try not to let it get you down - far easier said than done, I know, but true nonetheless. Good luck.

LOL Miss Snark, except you should have made the title of this post, PARSLEYing Out Advice! Ha, am I good or what!!!

Thanks for the laugh, and for giving me hope; as always, you ROCK!

As for my other question... hmmm... makes me wonder if you are in fact considering what I suggested?

errr.. I meant to write parsleying.
11:23 am..do I know where my fingers are? clearly not.

Someone said there were only 7 or 8 big publishers. Where's the 1200 number coming from?

Ah, the correction is there!

There are not really 1200 publishers, are there? My agent better get busy!

I'll second that: What "1200" publishers?

There are 350+ members of the American Association of Publishers. There are 4000 members of PMA, the independent publishers association (small shop presses and self pub presses etc).

I made up 1200, but you get the idea.

Well, Miss Snark is an optimist. My agent, who will not get back to me no matter I'm writing a new novel, because she sent it out to the top 6 and that's all she does.
I hear from other writer friends that they've gone through the same thing with agents....big money, a big book, or no more dice to throw.

But what of your career if you sell to other than the big six? If I want to have a 30 book career spanning years and years, am I still going to be happy landing one of the wee ones?

Or do I keep writing books until one of them FENNELy gets chosen by one of the big publishers?

Note from a kindred spirit: I'm in the same boat, and I understand your angst. I feel exactly the same way. My agent has my two novels out to several editors right now. I,too, have received glowing rejections. In fact, my agent and I recently laughed about the fact that I get the best rejections she's ever seen.

Yes, I'm starting a new novel. No, I'm not bugging my agent every day (or even every week) for updates. Yes, I'm trying to enjoy life in general. But the thing is, when you're this close to achieving a lifelong dream, everything else pales in comparison.

The phone rings and it could be George Clooney on the line, and I'd be disappointed it wasn't my agent calling with The News.

Ok, so say my agent sends my book out to 347 publishers, and number 347 is the charm.
Now, my agent doesn't charge me bupkas for any of these submissions, BUT once it sells, I owe her reimbursement for copies, postages, etc.

How am I going to reimburse her for 347 x (400pp x .06) + 347 x $15.00? That comes to something like $1300., but the publisher who wants to buy my opus offers an advance of $500.

So how does this work? I owe my agent $1300. in expenses, plus 15% of my $500. advance, or $1375.

Uh, I think I'm better off with her not selling my novel at this point.

At what point do I say STOP SENDING, I CAN'T AFFORD IT?

Maggie--LOLLing hysterically over the Fennel joke. I'd say, just tread GINGERly and eventually we'll all get ANISE book deal!

Thank you, Miss Snark, for stating that talent at this level is a given.
When I'm frustrated at what seems like a lack of progress, I need to hear that I'm in that part of the pile.

Anon--doesn't your agent use email?

Oh, boy, am I glad to hear that I'm not the only one getting 'I loved it, but...' At least now I know it happens to other people I can stop banging my head against the wall - or keep it to once or twice a day, anyway.

Word verif: spfcmzu - the noise of frustrated incomprehension made on opening one of these rejections...

Manic Mom,
My agent uses e-mail now, for the most part. But until fairly recently a lot of editors still insisted on paper copies.
A lot of the smaller publishers still do.

And you know how you can't send out "shopworn" copies, or an editor might be insulted he isn't the first to see it.
My agent told me how in "the old days" -- pre-computer, copies made the rounds until they fell apart.

While it is sadly amusing, my question is still valid. I'm running a tab with my agent (going on two years now). While I believe in agents in general going all out, if the circumstances are similar to my hypothetical (not really 300+ submissions, but a lot)
I can understand why agent, especially new agents, would be reluctant to submit to more than say, ten editors. Even if they love the book, they may not be able to afford to shop it, and they can't take money from the client because that would make them sleezy.

Oh well. I'm working on the next book.

anon--you're ahead of the game -- i need to get rollin' with book #2.

Snark, I posted an ILOVEMISSSNARK post on my blog, a reader suggested that I tell you: "Tell her to keep her good advice CUMIN!"

Miss Snark wrote: At this level very few books are rejected cause the writing sux. We reject that at the slush pile level. You're playing in the "of course the writing is good" league now.

My editor said: You'd be shocked at the garbage some agents send over.

Not that Miss Snark would ever do that.

"...like the SpaceArk bidding war."

What the hell were you doing last night that you can be so dead-on snarky at 6:32 AM? You keep this up and I see a drive-time radio show in your future.

Ah... thank you, Miss Snark! You've answered a question I didn't even know I had.

That's why I luvs ya. :-)

And we have other things to obsess about, like the SpaceArk bidding war.

::snort:: I almost choked on that one.

Well as is often the case with moi, au contraire. I had an agent refer me only to have the next agent tell me she didn't represent thrillers, she was kind enough to refer me and the next agent replied that while he represented thrillers he did not represent "terrorist themed" thrillers. Take from it what you will your mileage may vary.

Might I add that this is an EXTREMELY good thing. Agents don't refer bad (or even medoicre) writing to their colleagues, or they lose both their friends and their reputations. Agents hardly ever do this; they reserve referrals for the few times when they were truly impressed. And the agent that you were referred to will know this. Count yourself lucky.

I work in reverse alphabetical order, because I figure the agents at the end of the alphabet get fewer queries.

SPACE ARK!

So you got a referral? Congratulations, your book must be good. You don't need to rehash every detail of why when you query B - if B wants to know, they can always ask A, who, after all, they know professionally and can trust to be honest. But very probably they won't want one; they'll just look at your book with a bit more interest, and make a decision based on your writing.

It's easy to hyperventilate over these things because it's so horribly stressful, but really, you've done the right thing and got a compliment to your work, and that's all. There's no bad here. Give yourself a pat on the back.

daisy, you are a clever one. If that is any indication of how deep and progressively your characters think, I can't wait to delight in the deathlessness of your prose.

anon.- I'm afraid you might not like it; I sometimes employ humor

In the last few months I've gotten things like, "We loved your story, but it doesn't fit what we publish" more than once.

Knowing that someone loved the story, "but it's not what we publish and we hope you find a home for it" is more frustrating than a form rejection. It's also a nice pat on the back and ego booster.

Still...it's okay to give up. I do it all the time. (I think I've said that before.) I totally swore off writing yesterday. I sent out three queries today and, in response to an email, one full attached as a Word format document.

I'll swear off writing again on Monday. I know I will. ... At least for a day or two. I can't do it forever. I mean I've just married off my main character's seventh daughter to a nice engineer turned goat-herd. It was the result of early maturity brought on by stress. Pixies don't mature until sometime near 100, and she's not near 100. The stress came from being caged by an evil man. Pixies don't like to be caged. Stress can bring on … well … umm pixie urges and stuff.

So, next they have a daughter of their own. The daughter will meet her half-sisters. Then, of course, the human half-sisters will sneak along when their new pixie sister is presented to the fairy court.

Fairies and pixies are more or less mortal enemies. And if I give up writing, I won't know how the three girls will get themselves out of the mess I know they'll get in.

Then, too, there is the story that precedes this one. I'm so frustrated with that, that I've skipped it for now. Oh, I'll go back. The beginning is too good not to go back and finish it. But, I'll have to give up writing dozens of times first. You can too, just return to it later.

And, not to deviate too far from the original topic, Not Right For Us does NOT mean, "You suck lemons."

Examples of Not Right for Us that did not mean "you suck lemons":

1. Your manuscript was a real pleasure to read! Your voice is unique, and your writing style is tight. The storyline caught my attention and kept me reading. Unfortunately, it does not fit into the Romance genre published here at The Wild Rose Press.

2. Excellent read, very entertaining and a lot of fun....But not really Baen material.

3. We enjoyed the story and do hope you find a publisher for it.

Unfortunately, I have too many rejections of this sort.

Haven't you walked into a bookstore, saw a title that interested you, read the back of the book, then looked at the first couple of pages, and put the book back because it just wasn't quite right for you? It's the same thing for an agent. You don't want someone representing you who thinks the book's good, but it isn't right for him because he isn't going to do a good job selling it.

There's no way to know when your story will land on an editor's desk.
Your writing may be wonderful -- but she just bought a similar story.
The story may be fabulous -- but they're overinventoried on what you write, because several option books came in at once, and those get first crack.
It might all work -- but the editor your agent spoke to about the story decided she wanted to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, and so she's taken a leave of absence, and her replacement isn't on the same wavelength as your agent or your writing.
Uh, oh, that pregnancy that wasn't going to keep your editor from working? Well, she's um, changed her mind and doesn't want to miss a second of those early years.
Your manuscript went into a story conference, but the editor who loved it can't get support from her colleagues on this one -- it's too different.
The line you're targeting has closed down.
The line you're targeting has decided to go in a different direction.

Sha'el, there are so many reasons that are beyond your control you can't begin to count them all. Just shrug it off and keep going. If it makes you nuts, think how crazed your agent is, since this is her world, and she has to do this with more than one manuscript.

Keep writing. Keep giving your agent something new. Do it because you love it and you have to.

Really. I've heard tell of writers who queried agents and got rejected, only to find their novel idea trashed on a blog afterwards. Then same novel gets snapped up by another agent and then a publisher. Everybody has their own tastes and biases. Not everyone will love everything. Keep trying.

I've already decided the first thing I'll do if I win the lottery is fund the publication of anything Sha'el ever writes (if she'd let me, of course). The world needs pixies.

"queried agents and got rejected, only to find their novel idea trashed on a blog afterwards"

The agent's blog? That would be a tad unprofessional.
And stupid. Who would want to send their work to an agent who publicly humiliated them?

Anonymous, I think she meant a blog like Rachel (spelling?) Vater's--she goes over the basic ideas of a query, without being specific enough for anyone but the author to know whom she's talking about.

The fact that they respond with "we liked/loved it" is proof enough they really liked it.

There could be something else going on here. I used to pile up those little notes, too. Good writing, but we don't feel strong enough, blah, blah. And then I wrote something with greater commercial potential and the agents came running.

It could simply be that your novel is not commercial enough.

http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2006/05/winning-lottery-is-not-theme.html

http://pkwood.blogspot.com/2007/02/funny-poignant-and-wise-novel-about.html#links

Just one example. Taste varies. Query widely.

Here's a lousy no: agent is looking only for serious literary fiction but replies to my query with 'your serious literary fiction is not what I'm looking for, however opinions in this business vary.'

What, get an opinion from someone else about whether or not it's what you're looking for? Or get an opinion on whether my book is serious and literary at all?

Bleachhh.

Anon, 'The fact that they respond with "we liked/loved it" is proof enough they really liked it.'

If they really liked it, why pass? I wonder if it's not commercial enough (but if so, I'd love it if they said so)...

There's always an opposite opinion. Dear Elektra loves my pixies. An agent who shall go nameless (otherwise Snarkie wouldn't allow the post, and it would bruise his fragile male ego to be named) emailed me this morning more or less suggesting the my writing is trash, "though others might have a different opinion."

It's okay. We have a strong personality clash over other issues. I expected the rejection, just not the rudeness. But hope springs eternal. I thought I'd give him a try anyway. ... Bad idea, huh?

I have two fulls and two partials out there with publishers. It just takes forever to hear back from some of them. [Can you hear the deep sigh?]

I'm really puzzled by one of these. Their editor wrote a really nice email. He asked for four months to decide. It's been much longer, and a polite email from me asking about it has gone unanswered. I'm thinkin' that's a "no," which makes me sad because they're my publisher of choice at the moment.

Elektra, you're sweet. Thanks for the kind words.

This is not a form rejection. Repeat that a few times. This is not a form rejection. Yay, you! This is a nicely worded, heplful and encouraging document. The voice is good: congrats - your style doesn't suck.
The plot didn't connect with this agent. Repeat that as well. Emphasise different words. THIS plot didn't connect with THIS agent. Yay you. It might connect with others. Do as Her High Snarkiness says. Keep querying. Don't give up. Take this as the 'attaboy' it is.
Even if this one doesn't work, you're a writer, yeah? You write. You will continue writing. Maybe the next one you write will work for you and the agents you query.

Yup, that's a nice rejection letter. Any time an agent takes the time to say something encouraging (and he/she even pointed out something specific that he/she liked) it means you don't totally suck. Most will tell you--if they really think you suck, they'll send an impersonal form letter and hope you go away. They don't want to encourage you to submit something else.

The next agent might love it! Keep querying.

I'm thinking the "quit obsessing" advice--worthy though it is--just ain't sinkin' in with some folk.

Tell them to obsess all they want over whatever, but they have a 5-minute time limit and are not to involve you.

I had an obsessive spouse (once, never again!) and it got old at light speed. I admire your amazing patience.

What does he mean?
He said he liked it but it wasn't for him. He's telling you he's not the agent to sell your book and he took the time to tell you that it's good.
Go Query, go query, that book of yours will sell.

All very wise and true. Then again, if the next five agents say the same thing, you'll want to stop and think about a rewrite.

One rejection--don't obsess. Pick up, move on. Same rejection multiple times? Now obsess--about fixing the problem everybody sees.

Writers obsess. That's what they do. They will read the variation on a form letter five thousand times. Hopefully, they will take the line the agent added and absorb that.
But don't tell them not to obsess. It's part of what make us write.

I think I know this query.

Author, if you are within yelling range, would I be right in saying you entered the hook for this in the last crapometer (YA, I'm pretty sure, or middle grade?) If so, the part with the Will actually was very very funny. As long as the rest of the work is as punchy and tight as that paragraph, you're definitely on your way.

Now I'm wondering if I recognize the agent too... eep.

i would scrap the time-travel book. nobody intelligent is going to want to read that, regardless of how many queries he sends out. i certainly wouldn't read it.

anonagent, I think you are being a bit rough. Some of us actually like time-travel books. Diana Gabaldon doesn't seem to be having a problem selling her books.

Agreeing with dancing horse,
with one rejection just get on with your querying.
If you get repeated mentions of a given weakness, then it's time to re-examine, re-write.

I'm in a similar position, and I'd love to hear some Snarklings' experiences. After submitting a full, how long have you had to wait for a rejection? For an offer of representation? Were there some people whom you never heard back from at all?

I've had an agent request the full, keep it for many months, and when contacted eventually for followup, gave no reply -- it seemed safe to assume the person was not interested. Another agent requested a full just before the holidays, so I'm adding an extra month onto expected wait time, and it's a long ms., so adding on for that too -- and will be patient until I hear back. Meanwhile I'm preparing another batch of queries to send out for the next round.
Waiting is hard, but it helps to put energies into revisions that will make your ms. the best it can be, and working on something new, and sending out stories to litmags.
Faulkner said, "And sure enough, waiting will end ... if you can just wait long enough."

Amy,

I've seen on writers' boards (as I'm not at that stage - yet!) that typical response (yay or nay) can go from a few hours (if the agent uses email) to a few weeks to a few months wait. And, unfortunately, there are a number of agents who never reply.

Good luck!

~JerseyGirl

Don't wait for the rejection, keep subbing unless you agreed to an exclusive!

Amy: I submitted my full on 20 June, and got the rejection on September 28. I gave them three calendar months because I'd read somewhere that you really are entitled to contact them after that time with an oh-so-polite inquiry.

The next year I rewrote, and sent it back to the same agency (I asked them first and they said ok). I sent it on April 18, and three months later on July 18 I PHONED them to get the bad news. The agent said sorry, but she hadn't had the time to read it yet...

On August 7 she finally got back to me with 3 pages of suggestions. One thing led to another, and on November 28 (after several rounds of improvements) she offered to represent my first novel.

So, from requesting the first version of the full on June 20, 2005, to offering representation on November 28, 2006 was 17 months.

Hang in there kiddo - unless you've got a close relative who happens to be a commissioning editor at a major publisher, you're in for a bit of a slog, but you'll get there if you don't quit...

Good luck!

I've been waiting six months to hear back from a New York publisher. I met the editor at a conference and she asked for the full.
I queried sixty agents. Thirteen of which did not reply. One replied nine months later, three seven months later, another took ten months to respond.
Getting published is a waiting game. They keep us waiting. We adhere to their deadlines, and don't dare keep them waiting. But if we want to see our name on the spine of a book, we play by their rules.

Oh man! Sixty agents? Is that what people usually do? If so, I am soo behind the game with my pitiful list that I'm looking at sending to . . .

I once had a requested full returned after four years. No note. Just my manuscript, neatly boxed.

One of writer friends queried 100 agents before she finally landed one. And her book will be released in a couple of months. Never give up.

Amy, I'm kinda like Chris. An agent read my first 3 chapters, asked for changes, and now she's reading the full. Plus, she told me that she would not get back with me as quickly as she did with my first 3 chapters--turnaround was 1 week. So, hang in there and keep subbing!

I used to be a pro actress and if you google me, I come up about a zillion times for a well known movie long before any of my writing creds come up. Oh, well. I just say, "I am a regular contributor to XYZ" (true) and if anyone's interested, so be it. Hopefully when my book comes out it will sneak ahead of the movie somehow.

I just googled myself for the first time ever and discovered that unless I actually list a specific title or publisher along with my name the only thing that comes up are airports, football fields and parking lots. My pen names actually came up faster than my real name. So much for googling.

Well, I've always found that the people most paranoid about someone stealing their work are the ones mostly likely to steal someone else's.

There is controversy among the crit-lit types about how many different plots there are, but it's a finite number and there are millions of books, so narrative originality is highly over rated. Will S., at whose altar we all worship, stole everyone of his story lines.

Cecil Brooks of the Chicago reader considered this on his web page, The Straight Dope, citing varying literati theories on how many plots are out there, ranging all the way from 69, Kipling, to 1, my favorite:

"One school of thought holds that all stories can be summed up as Exposition/Rising Action/Climax/Falling Action/Denouement or to simplify it even further, Stuff Happens, although even at this level of generality we seem to have left out Proust."

oops I meant Cecil Adams, in the previous post, not Brooks.

I must have had guns or jazz on my mind.

LOL. I have to say that I'm not afraid of my ideas being stolen. I'm often surprised at how often I've "thought" of an idea and then read a book two months later (as I'm sweating blood to produce that idea) some big author comes out with a similar premise. *sigh*.
I refuse to worry about this. Someone could take my idea, but they can't mimic my awful syntax or my unfortunate grammar. THAT is all my very own, thank you.

A couple of weeks ago I sent a short story off to my critique group. A few days ago I discovered that a big novel in 2005 had the same title and touched on a similar theme. It's small world, and we have small brains.

--Jeff

This is like the people who put "copyright" notes on their submissions to lit journals. That little encircled C by a title is always a tell-tale sign that the story's going to seriously suck.

Many people like to write, but not many have the stamina to sit down and complete an actual novel.

Don't worry about your ideas being stolen. Even if the idea is, the person still has to sit down, write the thing, query it, get sample chapters read, etc. That should take a year or more. If I had a dollar for every time, I heard someone say, "That's a good idea for a novel/screenplay, etc.!" I'd be rich. Do they follow up on said idea? As a rule, no.

Yeah, aren't there like 7 basic plots in this world? Or something like that?

Here's a true story: I wrote a (bad) novel where the main characters were a teenaged East German athlete who dies young, and his parents. I was all "Wow, I'm so original!"

Then, after I'd written my bad novel, I was in Berlin, in a used bookshop. There I found an obscure East German novel from 1983 where the main characters were (drum roll...) a teenaged East German athlete who dies young, and his parents. Even the reason for his early death was the same! I was not amused.

Because ideas seem sometimes elusive, unpublished writers think they're worth gold when maybe they're worth a penny. Ideas themselves are meaningless because if the writer can't turn it into a story that people will buy, then the idea is worthless no matter how good it seems. I had a friend who got an agent interested in his idea for a series, but he could never can past the interested stage because he couldn't write that great idea into a saleable story.

Besides, ideas are easy to come up with ... just tell anyone you're a writer and you'll get "I've got this great idea ..." And then they want 50 percent of the profits for spending five minutes coming up with the idea while the writer spends a year developing and writing the story.

You need to relax, I think. There's a difference between being influenced by other people's ideas, which everybody does - after all, you didn't invent the genre of 'suspense novel', so even you're being influenced - and stealing, which is very rare. Certainly too rare to be worth worrying about this much. I've been in a lot of writers' groups, and I've never seen it happen. People join writers' groups because they want to write, not steal.

As your books are finished, you're in a strong position anyway. All you'd need to do before submitting them is redraft and polish. Even conceding the highly unlikely scenario that a writer's group harbours a dirty little thief who'd lift your idea wholesale, they'd have to write a whole new book with it, which would take longer than redrafting. By the time they'd finished it, you'd already be well on your way with the submission rounds. You'd beat them to it.

And here's another point to soothe your mind: let people see your idea, and you've got witnesses that you thought of it first. Suppose A shows a story to the writing group, and a few weeks later, B produces a story that's clearly based on A's ideas. Everyone in the group from C to M heard A's story. If A says 'Hey, that's like my story!', the group will agree with him.

And writers want to write their own stuff. We're kind of attached to the idea of being original. A writer who flat-out pinches an idea from another writer is probably someone who lacks imagination. In which case, they're not much threat to you anyway, because without imagination, who writes well?

But these are theoretical scenarios. Miss Snark is right; the selling point of a suspense novel isn't the uniqueness of the plot, it's how suspensefully it's told. A unique idea badly rendered won't sell; a common idea brilliantly rendered will. Hence, the really important thing is not to guard your idea, but to polish your presentation of it. And for this, you'll need feedback.

You're far more likely to lose out by failing to get the feedback you'll need to perfect the novel than you are to lose out by having someone 'steal' your ideas. And you can't isolate yourself on the assumption that there are crooks everywhere; it's no way to live. Just take a deep breath and find yourself a group. But don't go in telling everyone not to steal your ideas; that isn't friendly, and writing groups thrive on an atmosphere of mutual support.

One of the most frequent questions published writers get is, "Where do you get your ideas?" New writers and non-writers think ideas make the difference between the pros and them, and that ideas are the top commodity in the writing biz. So they believe everybody's on the lookout to steal them, and if they come up with an idea themselves they'd better keep it under wraps. Sorry, but it's a basically amateurish fear.

To agree with comments made above, the writing's the thing, and you will benefit from a good group far more than you will risk anything by revealing your idea. The others have their own ideas. Besides, your idea probably isn't as unique as you think. Any day now, a big name writer could publish a book that's so close to your plot that you'll put your own in a drawer. It's a risk we all take.

Her Snarkliness writes,"I find the people most paranoid about other's stealing their work are the ones least likely to be stolen."

That's true for product ideas and business proposals too.

Venture capitalists and angels smell nitwit as soon as someone demands a confidentiality agreement. (If you won't trust someone you want millions from, who exactly will you trust?)

The idea is an amorphous being. I have taken a lot of inspiration from other writers; I've recently started having a theme book to read a chapter from before starting the writing for the day, to set the mood.
But one of Jane Smiley's theories is that what makes a novelist is someone who reads a story and loves it, yet can say, "but what if the writer did..."
And that is how a novel is born.
I'm not sure that's always true, but it's always a possibility.

Inspiring others to write is something to wish you could do.

Look at writing groups like the Inklings. C.S. Lewis and Tolkien shared a lot of the same ideas. Did the end product look anything alike? No. But the synergy of learning from each other made them strive for better things. Frankenstein came out of a similar setting. Will anyone mistake the offspring for the original? Not likely.

I really suggest you look at "13 Ways to Look at the Novel"; she has a lot of good stuff to say about inspiration.

"You don’t get widely plagiarized until you’re widely published--and then it doesn’t matter."

-- Joe Bob Briggs

"Screenplays are a different problem" - does that mean I should keep my unpublished manuscripts away from my Hollywood friends? (B actors who are desperate for work and who know a lot of Hollywood writers)

I'm serious about this question, because my book has big-screen potential.

I got an idea for a story off an another agent's website; she said it was free to use by all and sundry. I now have a completed ms. (revising it, at the moment).

What have I read/heard, that there aren't any new plots, just different ways to write them? A writer will bring something different to the table as to characters, slang, etc. It's all in the execution.

FWIW.

~JerseyGirl

Like the most recent anon, I'm curious about the screenplay exception.

Was that a joke? Or is there something I'm missing? Need clue gun.

I'll try for a different angle: Can't shake your worry? Write it first, write it best.

What, you're still reading? Get to work!

There are so many reasons why you don't have to worry about someone stealing your idea ... first of all, as Miss Snark said, you can't copyright an idea, only the expression of an idea.

Second, as a former reporter in a very competitive market, every day I'd see five or six reporters from different papers write completely different stories about an event that we all attended -- and we didn't even have to make up anything.

Third, if an unknown writer steals your idea, he or she won't find it any easier to sell it than you will.

Fourth, a famous writer isn't going to steal your story because he or she could probably sell a million copies of anything he or she wrote, including a grocery list, daily to-do list, or an overly long kvetch about the relatives.

Fifth, 87% of Americans say they want to write a book, but how many actually do it? An idea is nothing. They all have ideas already. It's not a lack of ideas that stop people from writing the Great American Novel -- it's a lack of discipline and a lack of passion. And I can't imagine anyone getting passionate about someone else's idea.

To summarize:

When asked by a comic if he liked his act, Milton Berle replied, "I laughed so hard I almost dropped my paper and pencil."

A great premise is all you need to pitch film rights in Hollywood. Actual verbage doesn't matter at that point because during the "development" process the production company pays screenwriters to write & rewrite the script. When you see the "story by" credit, the name that follows is who wrote the premise. So rights to the story in a hook can be sold or "stolen", yes, and litigation about the source of a story is not uncommon. It might be a great idea to keep your Hollywood buddy's hands off your manuscripts.

That said, only very rare hooks are that original or good, as shown by the Crapometer, and unless yours is uniquely brilliant and your sneaky associate knows a producer they can successfully pitch it to, there's about zero chance your novel's premise will get "stolen" and become the next blockbuster without you.

What really irks me at writer's gatherings is when I tell a great funny story to some twerp who forgets where they heard it and tries to tell it to me two days later as if it was their original but their timing sucks and they can't quite remember the set-up or the punchlines. This is how the pitch would go if they tried to "steal" your film rights. Flat. I don't think plagarists really understand what makes a great story or joke. That's what drives them to plagarism in the first place. Then they have something to work with, but they still don't understand so they're doomed to mess it up every time. They're more to be pitied than feared.

Not speaking for MS, I'll give my reasons why it is different for screenplays. In the film and tv biz, deals are often made from a pitch in an office. In fact, more money can be made that way than the average debut advance. It just takes moments to read an idea off the internet, as a poster here said. And ideas posted by an agent on a website, ideas free for the taking? Yikes, hope that's not my agent. Then the thief can work out the key beats and fashion a five minute pitch. The producer says yes and pays them to take it to the next step. The lazy writer doesn't have to invest a year of writing a novel to earn money off the concept.

I know this happens. Ideas have been stolen off desks of "friends." Some writers get dry, they have a meeting tomorrow and they lose all sense of morality. Because the odds are these projects will never actually hit the screen, the original writer will never know that thousands of dollars were made off their idea unless they too are in the business. It doesn't matter what witnesses you have, it is almost impossible to litigate.

It is true that many newbies are overly concerned about their idea being stolen, while in fact their ideas are not really fresh or high concept enough to be worth stealing. But some are. If you're one of those writers, you must decide whether what you have to gain is worth the risk of exposure. Sometimes it will be.

In terms of joining a critique group, dear OP, it is well worth any risk to get the feedback to become a better writer. Your idea will be exposed to a small number of people invested in their own novel manuscripts. But consider asking them not to discuss your concept to their producer spouses, or outside the group, until you have at least finished your first draft.

I think many people might be offended if someone at a writing group asked everyone not to reveal their story idea, unless that person had a specific deal brewing that included some kind of non-disclosure clause. Without a good reason, the request carries two implications:

1. You're all lousy no-good thieves and so are your loved ones.
2. My idea is so incredibly terrific that anyone who hears it will want to steal it.

Neither of which will make friends and influence people. Which matters; people will be far more willing to give you thoughtful and detailed feedback if they aren't out of patience with you.

This is a novel, not a movie. Just finish it and start agent-hunting. People attend writing groups all the time, and nothing bad happens. It'll be fine.

On plagiarism, borrowing, and influence

Uncle Orson says it a lot better than I can.

In the end, someone who will "steal" your idea is no threat to you, because people who cannot come up with their own original ideas are generally not capable of writing them as well as you do.

I don't worry about it at all.

And if you don't trust your critique group, why in the hell are you trusting your clearly vitally important manuscript to them?

I'm a working writer in Hollywood (more TV than features, admittedly), and I don't share the opinion that script ideas are easily stealable or commonly stolen. Every writer I know has plenty of their own ideas and not enough time to write them; every producer I know has a budget to pay for ideas they like, and no need to steal them. And many 'unique' ideas I've had in my own hopper have turned up onscreen, written by some other person who had a similar idea and got their version done sooner. Usually, this doesn't mean that mine is dead -- there are differences as well as similiarities, so both projects cold conceivably get produced and find audiences if both are any good. Just like in novels, ideas have very little value here -- execution is all.

Plagiarism: So, where do you draw the line?

As writers, we’re prone to and encouraged to read--a lot. How can we be sure something we’ve read hasn’t (inadvertently) seeped into our own writing?

What is too much to “borrow?” An idea? A (non-signature) phrase? Obviously there’s a continuum, and a line that should never be crossed. Where is that line?

I’d really like to know, so that I can check all my outgoing work for any inadvertent offenses.

(Note: The key word here is “inadvertent.” Obviously, I would never purposefully use another writer’s material. I’d just like to have a guideline to check my work against.)

Miss Snark: is there a proverbial "line in the sand?"

I read a lot of stories for my zine and far more of the premises are alike than different.

I've yet to read the same execution of like ideas. Sometimes, an execution of an old idea is so original we actually BUY the story!

I think a critique group would give this questioner a reality check in more ways than one.

"How can we be sure something we’ve read hasn’t (inadvertently) seeped into our own writing?"

Answer: I've had this happen more than once, but I've never sent anything to agents that wasn't ruthlessly pruned and cleansed of all "stolen" material.

Examples of not OK: scenes regarding similar experiences using similar language or dialogue beats. I wrote a story about a sister confronting her dying brother about giving up. Later, had to go back and rewatch AND reread "Dying Young" (which admittedly influenced me, although what my novel really was was a translation of losing my mom/best friend into a story about super-close siblings facing one's death), as well as "The Bumblebee Flies Anyway" and "Princes in Exile".

I found small things that I considered inadvertent stealing, ripped them out and rewrote, thinking of my own experience and blocking out the words of others that I'd loved when I read them.

That's my method: identify the similar work(s). Review them and your own scenes, as much material as you're concerned about. If you don't trust yourself, ask someone else for an objective comparison, but I've always found I can do it myself.

I dread this particular (well-known) rejection: "the parts that are original aren't good, and the parts that are good aren't original."

(A great premise is all you need to pitch film rights in Hollywood. Actual verbage doesn't matter at that point because during the "development" process the production company pays screenwriters to write & rewrite the script.)

When I was a novice, I "let out" an idea to a seasoned screenwriter
and he immediately said. "That's a pitchable idea!" He created a pitch using my core idea only presenting it in modern times and changing enough circumstances to "make it his!"

Net result - seasoned writer sold the pitch for $2 million. Currently it's in development HELL after a turnaround sell! Now, what he did is perfectly acceptible. And he always wants to "do" dinner when I'm in LA. (I never discuss my ideas anymore, but I learned to listen to others).

Haste yee back ;-)

Kit Whitfield said...
>I think many people might be offended if someone at a writing group asked everyone not to reveal their story idea,

Kit, the idea about asking for confidentiality is not out of concern that the crit group members would "steal" the idea but that their friend/cousin/associate might repeat said idea. In fact, it is a display of trust that if you ask your group to maintain confidentiality (with *everyone's* projects), you are confident they will abide by it. Nothing wrong with that. It works for twelve step groups.

I'm talking tact, and practicality, nothing else. If the group as a whole has a confidentiality agreement, then fine, that's what works for them. But if it doesn't - and I've never been to one that does - then a writer who demands confidentiality is implying that they somehow need special treatment. No one responds well to that. Writing groups are founded on the principle of mutual generosity, and if one person is overly possessive of their ideas, then they're shutting themselves out of the group.

It's always possible a writer might be able to pull of the request without giving offence, but it would the request would need to be presented with exceptional grace, and it's hard to be suave when you're worried, which this writer clearly is. It just seems to me like gambling with the good will of people whose opinions you'll be depending on.

It's hardly necessary either, as people keep pointing out - execution is what counts. And someone insisting on something unnecessary generally makes things awkward.

As a further point, if the rough idea of a story is repeated to someone who repeats it to someone who repeats it to someone, by the time it got to anyone who wanted to write it themselves, it would almost certainly have changed a lot, too much to be worth worrying over. Ever play Telephone?

Writing groups can organise themselves however they wish. I'm just pointing out the downside of a particular piece of advice, in case our friend decided to follow without considering its drawbacks. It's up to them; I just thought someone ought to give an alternative perspective so they could take their decision having considered as many possibilities as possible.

kit, agreed, meant that it would be for the group as a whole. I have seen more than one writing group that had the agreement of confidentiality and it worked well for them. It also allowed participants to dig deep and reveal secrets (memoir writing in one group).

For anyone who does not believe that writers' concepts have ever been ripped off, look up the Art Buchwald case. That is only the tip of the iceberg because he was famous and rich enough to take it all the way to satisfaction.

My crit group has a general policy for membership that you don't share other people's work without their permission. Solves the problem of having to ask.