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isn’t he too young to play Supergirl’s man of steel? I only watched a few episodes but hasn’t he already reached adulthood and been superman for years when Kara shows up as a 12 year old?

Is there a “problem” with the Bechdel test? I think it serves a good purpose, but point #2, on its own, doesn’t mean that a show/film is a failure. It’s possible that you can have a couple very good female characters who never meet each other, but they pass #1 and #3

Wow. Can you comment on the reason for this article? I don’t sit around making hashmarks about my personal obsessions when I watch TV. Or read a book, see a movie, etc. The main question I have about my entertainment–is it entertaining? Entertain first. Preach second. Or never. This commentary really belongs on a personal blog, not a comics news site.

How did Age of Ultron pass? The only conversation I can recall are when Black Widow and Mrs. Hawkeye discuss the gender of the baby which was male..

Ultron passes according to this – http://bechdeltest.com/view/6217/avengers:_age_of_ultron/

I think the Madam B/Black Widow scenes would qualify it if you exclude the baby discussion

Vichus – I completely agree that a show/movie can fail this test and still be good. I also don’t think the Bechdel test is the only gauge for how well women are represented in fiction, but it’s a decent and quantitative starting point, with the assumption that there will always be exceptions where the test doesn’t really work (like Gravity). I don’t think that was the case in any of these specific episodes, though.

Oh no! Not the Flash!

Jerry, of course you don’t. If you’ve never felt marginalized, then you’re not going to feel the need to speak out or point out certain things. If two people are out on an extremely hot day and one feels fine while the other does not, whose reaction is valid and whose is not?

Colin, there are more women in the film than that.

Hannah: Yeah, the Bechdel test would also “fail” if the movie only involved one or two people. Good point.

Any time that group stereotypes are reinforced it is a public issue, not simply “a personal obsession”.

I wish that one more point could be added to the Bechdel test:

4. In a scene featuring a female character, is she fully clothed, or is she in a state of undress, or wearing clothing that is overtly revealing in some way?

I love The Flash, but it definitely wouldn’t pass this test, either.

Great piece, I really liked what you said about the live action tv dc stuff. But then I thought about that Arrow comic with the show runners, and how that didn’t really work. Maybe the talent just wasn’t right. If they were up for it, sticking Valentine and some of those other creators you mentioned and getting cohesion ‘like Marvel Star Wars cohesion’ for that line would be a thing of beauty. But, if you were to do that, would you detach it from continuity?

Another issue, especially when it comes to initiatives and new readers, is the delivery system/venue/format. Some people just don’t want monthly drips of a story or to collect comics they just want to read stories. There are a whole world of publishers and creators making those connections now. D

These are all great ideas but I’m particularly interested in the Vertigo one. I think the push they made at the end of 2015 is falling pretty flat and I’m guessing only two of those books will have any sort of lasting traction (Sheriff of Babylon and Unfollow). It’s really hard to see what kind of identity Vertigo can have now that Image is drinking their milkshake. I mean, I’m all for them putting out original, mature-reader works – especially if there is something in it for the creators – but going back to being a place for edgy, sophisticated mature-readers stories about weird DCU characters might be an ultimately more successful and brandable route for them to go.

DC needs to create some new characters, and not just superheroes., instead of reviving old series. I assume this is supposed to appeal to readers’ nostalgia, but there aren’t enough 50-something Baby Boomers and 40-something Gen X’ers still reading their comics to make this work. Create some new characters for the new readers.

“Steal a big name”: DC surged in the ’80s by “stealing” Frank Miller, John Byrne and other popular Marvel creators. Of course, they were helped by Jim Shooter’s management style, which led so many writers and artists to flee Marvel.

Question was the goal of this article how DC could sell more comics?

Because of it was only DC Unlimited is the only idea that fits that idea.

Tie in books to tv shows and cartoons don’t sell.

Vertigo comics featuring Constantine don’t sell.

Books written by minority writers like Orlando, Valentine, Tynion, Doyle don’t sell.

Diverse types of books like Omega Men, Black Canary, Midnighter, Prez don’t sell.

Short of WB magically getting the rights to Star Wars DC isn’t going to be selling comics.

I agree with Robert Mayland above. I’m not saying that DC couldn’t use a pretty hefty dose of diversity I think that the idea that somehow hiring someone of color will produce a comic book that is not only a) great and innovative and b) everyone of color will automatically read it..It’s not only demonstrably wrong (see the rest of the Top 10 comics on the list) but it’s also mildly condescending tbh.

“At the same time, it’s possible that they misjudged how big the market actually is for this kind of approach to their heroes.”

THIS. I’m sorry but it’s quite clear that Tumblr and its ilk are basically the very vocal minority (no pun intended). I agree with you that Batgirling isn’t bad but, as you said, you can’t try to build the undercard with it simply because there isn’t that much of a demand for it and no amount of promotion would help that. Also, while I’m spouting anecdotes I have a sinking suspicion that this same demographic they’re so desperately trying to court is of the same generational mindset that most of their media should be free or illegally downloaded. Obviously this is unprovable conjecture but we’re all just spitballing here anyway.

The rest is SPOT. ON. Especially the DC Unlimited idea. I’m sorry but who on Earth would pay $3.99 a pop for a DRM digital copy of a comic that costs the company next to nothing to produce?

Finally, before I step off my soapbox I’d like to add the idea that perhaps DC should shift into more of a manga approach and begin selling longer books at more affordable prices. No matter how you cut it, 4 bucks for an 8 minute read that won’t be continued for 30 more days just isn’t a good bargain. Especially in these days of super decompressed storytelling.

Everything having to do with sales, or (perhaps more importantly with the nature of a non-returnable Direct Market) the *perception* of sales really actually at the end of the day comes down to “is it any good?”

So any essay that doesn’t begin with editorial (and/or institutional) direction is, probably, missing the point.

-B

Hi Brian,

Maybe, but I’m not privy to actual conversations that occur regarding creative directions for DC’s various lines other than hearsay. Frankly, as of right now, I don’t know what DC’s editorial direction even is, if you were to really ask me. Perhaps you have better insight?

I sure hope no one ever actually makes the argument that good sales = good comics, cause there’s a whole lotta not very strong (IMO) X-Men comics that would disprove that thesis right quick.

But Brian – some of the DC You books are amazingly good and yet don’t sell. So material being “good” is not the answer. If they’re producing good material but it isn’t what the comics fans who walk into the store every week want, then their marketshare will continue to drop. And if they’re producing good material but the retailers and/or regular subscribers don’t have any faith in it then it won’t get on the shelves anyway and the people walking in to try it out won’t see it.

DC needs to decide if they want to be a comic book company anymore or not. If they don’t, then their dwindling marketshare in the comics market doesn’t matter at all and they can just continue to do what they’re doing until they reach the point where they’re not making enough money on the comics publishing to cover the overhead. At which point they can shut it down or license their characters out to another company to publish. But if DCE doesn’t really care one way or the other about publishing comics anymore and really want to be a brand management company, then maybe they just get as much money as they can out of the market for the next few years and shut it down when the profits start to being too small to care about.

If they want to be a comics company then they need to start sucking up to the retailers again. DC only gets their stuff on the shelves when they stroke the retailers a lot because the retailers in the business continue to view Marvel as their cash cow and DC as the also-ran. So if they want to be a comics publisher they should be bribing the retailers more heavily than Marvel does – do things like make more books returnable for longer to get retailers to stock more on the shelves and take more chances, or create some incentives for retailers to stock a diverse selection of titles rather than incentivizing buying dozens (or more) of extra copies of a single title to get those variant covers they sell on eBay. It may not be “fair” that they need to suck up to retailers more than Marvel does to get their books promoted, but business ain’t fair and if Marvel is doing that much better sales wise then its time to make some drastic interventions.

If they can’t afford to do that, and still want to publish something like “comics” in house then the other choice would be to give up on the month-to-month Direct Market and push heavily into the digital realm. Cut their printing costs dramatically by giving up on floppies entirely and switching to a digital to collection pipeline that would get their books on the bookshelves faster and forget about the monthly magazine format entirely. it would mean essentially giving up on the direct market, but with their marketshare dwindling as rapidly as it has this year the DM might just give up on them if they don’t do something drastic.

But they need to do something dramatic to convince readers and retailers that they’re not in a death spiral at this point. The reboot and the jump back to 90s style comics goosed their sales for a while on the nostalgia wave, but it didn’t work for long and its not going to work again. They need to do some more fundamental things than just make “good comics” to get back where they need to be or else they’re going to leave the market one way or another.

Robert,

“Tie in books to tv shows and cartoons don’t sell”

Maybe, maybe not. The current set of books DC releases are never adequately promoted for the tv viewer, or given creative teams that general interest the LCS customer. But, do both of those things and perhaps they will move units. They just announced a “Dark Archer” comic co-written by John Barrowman. But it’s probably going to be so underpromoted and hidden in their Comixology lineup, it’ll barely make a blip on the radar.

I know Buffy tie-in comics really aren’t all that comparable given that it was considered the “official continuation of the show”, but that first issue sold 90k copies. There’s an audience out there for this kind of stuff provided you hit the right buttons.

“Vertigo comics featuring Constantine don’t sell.”

Certainly not issue 200-300 something, which is how Hellblazer was basically left for the entrenched reader. But I think it’s hard to argue that an IP that a reader recognizes, starting at issue 1, wouldn’t sell better than a creator owned one that they don’t, barring there being a superstar creative team in question (and even then, it might not sell all that well, again see: Twilight Children).

The funny thing about Supergirl is that I still see it being heralded as a breakout success by critics. I don’t disagree, but it’s interesting to see that a CBS show that pulls less than 10 million is heralded as such whereas a show in the same position in 2007 would have been quickly edging towards cancellation.

I’ve had a lot of fun with Supergirl so far. I think the writing is still trite at times, and it overexplains and reiterates points in a way that only network series do, but overall it’s been an enjoyable ride.

I guess it’s a sign of my age, but this is pretty much the only superhero tv show I watch. I appreciate that they’ve gone the opposite direction of the other shows by remaining bright and sunny for the most part (matched by the cinematography). At times the individual stories and villains can come off a bit pedestrian, but the show has a lot of heart and there’s always a scene or two that really hits it out of the ballpark emotionally. The show has a likable lead and supporting cast and I like the way they’ve softened Cat Grant and made her a bit more complex, rather than just made her a hardass boss. The series’ love triangle(s) also makes it work. And they’ve done a good job of including some interesting subplots that will likely pay off later down the line. With most of the other shows trying to be dark and gritty, I think this show is a breath of fresh air; it’s got more of a YA feel.

I’ve read comics my whole life. I love DC Comics in particular. I have a strong affinity for Silver-Age to Pre-New52 DC comics. I love almost every DC character.

But I HATE Red Tornado.

All he does is cry.

Is that the fan favorite you were referring to? Who on earth likes Red Tornado- other than “Let’s rape everybody Brad Meltzer”

A friend on Facebook reminded me of the “Black Widow” SNL trailer…

While we’re discussing the Hero’s Journey, realize that it doesn’t apply here… There is no way for the hero to return to Krypton. The hero COMES from a world of supernatural wonder into the everyday.

Instead, we get the American Monomyth:
“A community in a harmonious paradise is threatened by evil; normal institutions fail to contend with this threat; a selfless superhero emerges to renounce temptations and carry out the redemptive task; aided by fate, his decisive victory restores the community to its paradisiacal condition; the superhero then recedes into obscurity.”
Except that the hero never leaves town, because the community is constantly threatened.

Jimmy Olsen is the mentor figure. I’m hoping he doesn’t become the Magical Negro.
Kara, on the other hand, IS Jimmy Olsen. She’s the gofer at work, the New Adult. Which is intriguing, in that the Superman/Jimmy paradigm is flipped… Here he knows everything, and Kara has to bumble her way around things. (Yes, I’m hoping for some Red K stories. Or some fun BEMs!)

I’m also hoping that “Katty Perry” becomes more dimensional. I like how Kat Grant has been transformed from a debutante to a driven CEO, but I’m also hoping there’s some exploration of her backstory.

(HA! What if Kara = “Murphy Brown’s secretaries”? Who had the job before her? Any disgruntled employees?)

Yes, this show will skew younger… it’s 8 Eastern, 7 Central, the first hour of prime time. On Monday, which traditionally is for CBS what Thursday was to NBC. But now, instead of sitcoms, we get Supergirl, Scorpion, and NCIS:LA.

The big unknown: the Big S. Superman exists, but can’t appear in these episodes, because, anytime Superman shows up in a story, the story becomes a Superman story. But what about Lex? The DEO? Star Labs? Other heroes which appear because of Superman? That’s why Jimmy Olsen is here… he’s the narrative sock puppet for Superman, as we saw when he handed her the cape.

The BIG QUESTION: what parts of the DCU can the writers of Supergirl use, and which belong to the Arrowverse? Does CBS just get the Superman Family? Or does that also include aliens and outer space?

OOOOOooooohhhh… “Legion of Superheroes”! Replace Superboy with Supergirl. Watch those background characters, viewers! They might be aliens! (Were I a story editor, I’d set that up for perhaps the second season cliffhanger. Use that as a backdoor pilot for Legion.)

It looked to me like they almost tried to make the show as dull as possible. Supergirl insecure? Who wants that? I’ll give it 2 more episodes. I did notice that she mentioned Wicked tickets. CBS must own stock in the musical.

>>>Supergirl insecure? Who wants that?

They tried an insecure hero — Green Lantern — and no one liked it.

A friend of mine has two younger children, one boy and one girl, ages 7 and 10, who have just within the last year been exposed to superheroes of any kind. They both loved the pilot and can’t wait for more, and my friend feels the subject matter in the FLash and Arrow can be too complicated/mature for them. I think as hardcore fans, we can sometimes get caught up in the egocentric idea of everything being targeted towards us, when honestly that just doesn’t have to be the case. I’m not currently reading Batgirl, for instance, but I think it’s an important book that needs to exist for the audience it is being written for.

I thought this pilot was even more fun than the pilot for The Flash, and more earnest without having quite the level of campiness of say a Lois and Clark, or the emo-ness of Smallville, which is perfect for the audience I think it is going for. I’m excited to see that the overnight ratings for this show have been so good as it may prove that the audience they are courting for these superhero shows need not all be the same, and there is quite a bit of opportunity to open the fan base for these things way wider.

Heidi M. said: “I liked how they covered all their bases, from rejecting a sexy costume to explaining why “girl” isn’t a pejorative to head of criticism. ”

The young women I know (women in their 20s) refer to themselves as “girls,” and don’t mind anyone else calling them girls. They don’t find it belittling. It’s a generational change, I guess.

I probably won’t watch this show until the first season is released on DVD, but I’m glad it breaks with the dark and gloomy style of DC’s movies. I’m glad female superhero fans have someone to root for. However, the “Supergirl” trailers DO look a lot like SNL’s “Black Widow” parody trailer.

Power Girl. You know she’ll show up for ratings week. I hope they don’t wimp out by making her PC. Look at cosplayer BelleChere for an idea what the tv Power Girl should look like.

>>>>anytime Superman shows up in a story, the story becomes a Superman story.

This doesn’t necessarily have to be true, there are plenty of ways to include him and still celebrate Supergirl as the show runner (and if somebody wants to pay me I’d share those ideas). However I think including him would be a mistake since the impetus of action seems to be in Kara finding out how to ‘hero’ her way. (This is of course a bit of a sticky widget, since she is a derivative character) Unfortunately that is the primary reason I dislike the inclusion of Jimmy Olsen (I am not talking about changing the traditional aesthetic representation, only the character as plot device). Mechad Brooks turns out a fine performance, and his characterization would be more pleasing if he was an entirely new character, rather than the device to pull in hack-kneed ‘Super-mythos’ references.
Overall I to found the show watchable, and hope that the stories will become more engaging, but defining itself independently of the ‘Big Red S’ and overcoming the history of “prime-time” programming may take more than ‘a single bound’.

I think it’s pretty interesting that DC opted to restart the Superman volume numbering for the Yang/Romita run, but didn’t restart the numbering on the actual title (they did the same for the new Batgirl team). I wonder what the rationale is behind the decision to do one but not the other.

Two questions:
– Where’s the “8-page sneak peek chapter” in most of these books? Only Cyborg vol. 1 has it listed in its contents.
– Why is the Batman by Neal Adams Omnibus missing The Brave and the Bold #102? This story was missing from the 3-volume set and the DC Universe by Neal Adams collection, too.

“See why Lee is considered the greatest artist of his generation.” By whom? Who else is in that “generation”? This is a pretty outrageous claim to make.

So Wonder Woman: Earth One won’t be for sale in the U.K.? Why?

It’s hard to imagine sales for Vertigo series getting much better now that they’ve pushed the price of single issues up to $4. Who wouldn’t just wait for the trade of the first six issues of something like Art Ops when it’s priced at $15–and easy to order online at one third to one half off? That works out to about the retail price of two single issues. Sorry, comics shops!

Out of curiosity, do all of DC’s hardcovers, including the so-called deluxe editions, still have those cheaply glued, far too tight spines that make any full-bleed art, not to mention double-page spreads, a complete pain to read? That alone would put me off buying anything.

Mike: Brave and the Bold #102 is missing probably because Adams only illustrated the final seven pages of the story (finishing it up for regular artist Jim Aparo.)

The Hellblazer writeup is wrong- those issues were written by Warren Ellis, not Paul Jenkins. Paul’s run had just ended before it.

You’re right, Charlie (though it was actually 8 pages) – but considering how ridiculously complete the DC Adams collections have otherwise been, it seems an odd thing to leave out.

(Then again, the recent Deadman softcovers omitted the ’80s reprint covers and some text from the hardcover, and the early GL/GA collections overlooked Adams’ final Green Lantern short story from Flash #226. DC has a long history of overlooking noteworthy material in its collections of classic material.)

Still no Legion Archives volume 14? Boo.

Flash by Millar and Morrison but still no Flash by Mark Waid ?

That WW Earth One solicit doesn’t exactly inspire confidence. Contributor bio doesn’t even mention Yanick and the summary is like HEY REMEMBER SUPERMAN AND BATMAN?

[…] listing under DC’s scheduled trade paperback and hardcover collections, as discovered by The Beat, is as […]

[…] CBS’ Supergirl Casts True Blood’s Brit Morgan an ELECTRIFYING New Villain […]

The link doesn’t seem to be working

Seems to be working here, might be plug-in specific?

“The Video is not authorized in your location” (Europe). Could you briefly comment on the content of the video ?

how do we know they were “wowed”?

Well, the audience does give Supergirl a standing ovation. Usually a good sign that they were “wowed.” :)

I showed my daughter (6 years old, going on 7) the preview trailer, and she’s excited. I think CBS might have something here.

Nimmy –

Basically it’s a video of CBS filing in a large audience of women (mothers and daughters) to watch the pilot. Then after a big standing O for the screening, then they bring out Melissa Benoist (the star of the series) to come greet the crowd. Then there’s a big group shot where they all scream “Supergirl!”. It’s cute.

No allowed in my region. Way to go with the marketing.

Great interview!!! So glad to see this on the site. I can verify that Molly Danger Book 1 was GREAT and this will be worth it

1) Is there such thing as a secret identity anymore?
2) What’s with the House of El and the sheer amount of planes with engine trouble?

I think it looks fantastic and it is going to be a huge hit for DC. Amanda and I were happy to see it being such a positive show and having characters that look interesting and a bit of a budget as well. Amanda said she sees a lot of mother and daughters watching this weekly…and i agree.

Jimmy,

Amanda may really be onto something there, and that would delight me to no end. I’m thinking this is going to end up being the show that I wished Smallville was.

Did everybody see the same trailer as me? This show looks terrible in my opinion. I thought this trailer was fake and was a parody like the SNL Black Widow skit. I guess I’m not the demographic but geez, it looks like a bad romantic comedy sitcom.

I just watched this and I agree with Jimmy. Melissa Benoist was incredibly charming and likable in this footage, and it looks like a lighthearted, age appropriate story.

Did you want Supergirl to be Daredevil? I don’t think so.

One problem: DC doesn’t have any material even vaguely like this tone in print. I’d urge them to get “Cosmic Adventures in the Eighth Grade” back in print as a stopgap!

-B

Jimmy and Kyle, It seems like we were watching two different previews.

Right off the bat, I must say I am probably still bitter that CBS is truncating Person of Interest’s next (and what is rumored to be its’ final) season to only 13 episodes. Now *that’s* a show with interesting, strong, smart, original women characters — Shaw, Root, Control, Zoe and the late, lamented Carter. So my following judgements are especially compromised:

I really did want to like this preview, but —- this version of Supergirl looks *so* derivative and boring. It’s Smallville-*lite* (and a lite copy of the weaker seasons at that — after it moved to Metropolis). Every beat of the preview seemed like something I’ve seen many times before. I think I am finally over watching someone learn how to use their superpowers for the first time. It use to be fun. Now it seems to be part of the mandatory TV and movie superhero checklist.

Were there surprises in any of this? I didn’t see one. I know there has to be conflict in the workplace, but does it have to be with the cliche bitch boss? Yawn! And then there’s the ‘coming up with the costume’ scene. And the ‘secret government organization’ scene. And the “I’ve got to tell you who I really am” scene.

And then they’re placing this in a world that has a full-on, public Superman? From what’s here, it only reminds me that I’d rather watch the real thing instead of a copy. But I guess that makes it true to its’ source material. Comic book Supergirl was never a very good character. The stories drawn by the talented Jim Mooney had some charm (along with some twisted Mort Weisinger gender politics) and Supergirl Adventures was a fun comic. But in the end, she was only a cipher created to market another ‘Super’ book.

On the other hand, the women on Person of Interest …

There is NO way my kids are watching this! I do not support misceganation and certainly not on a kids TV show. Also JIMMY OLSEN ISNT BLACK! You cant just go changing his race to be politically correct!

I think this looks GREAT. A family friendly superhero show that anybody could watch but could be incredibly influential young girls! Long overdue.

Consider this another big thumbs up from another Beat contributor. The trailer went over very well at the shop too. We… we were showing customers. Very excited to see this on the airwaves in the fall.

Hmmm. Two thoughts:
1) I had zero interest in this show before the trailer, but now I’m going to give it a chance.
2) I think giving it a chance will probably prove it’s not a show for me.

I’m really glad it has the tone it does; it’s a huge, huge welcome after Man of Steel and the trailer for whatever the Batman/Superman movie is. But I detect plenty of traces of what I think of as “CBS bland” in there already. The Cliff’s Notes is not the novel, however, so I’ll be glad to be proven wrong.

My God this looks amazing! I can’t believe that we might be getting a superhero TV show like this at all – if they can keep the production values high this could be better than the Flash (the current champion for “best superhero show on TV” right now among many contenders).

I wasn’t excited at all for this show – I was resigned to it being a dreary procedural based on Man of Steel – but this looks like it has the potential to be amazing. I hope the network supports it and it can find an audience.

Are you people watching the same trailer? It seemed a satire of a 1980s show…..but, by accident. The music was horrid. She seems an unsexy Supergirl as well. It was actually the most unoriginal trailer I’ve ever seen. And race change? No.

I wish that the secret identity was protected a wee bit better. That said, I think this series will rise or fall on the strength of Benoist’s personality. I think she’s up to the challenge. (That said, take a STRONG look at the Flash series for guidance. I hope they live in the same universe.)

What better way to commemorate the 30th anniversary of Crisis on Infinite Earths? A fun Supergirl that young girls can actually watch. Great.