From one illustrator to another, I would recommend trying to think of your own stories, and making dummies of those. At the very least, it's good practice for what you'll need to do well when you get a gig: tell a story visually over 32 pages. Having a good dummy or two up your sleeve will make you more likely to catch the eye of an editor, art director or agent, imo. A top editor once told me that a lot of artists have a beautiful style, but can't do a (picture book) layout to save their lives.

Trying to come up with your own stories will keep the creative possibilities open, and you might find you have it in you to become an author/illustrator.

For making dummies, I've found two books helpful: Illustrating Children's Books, by Martin Salisbury, and Writing with Pictures, by Uri Shulevitz. Writing Picture Books, by Ann Whitford Paul, is one of the few books to focus on writing PBs, and I've found it a good springboard. (And read and scrutinize kids' books by the score, which you probably already do.) Best of luck!

E.A. is absolutely right... don't ever let an author "hire" you (unless you're looking to self-publish)! As an illustrator, I've gotten those propositions as well. But it really means that the author hasn't done any research on how to properly submit a manuscript and how the industry works... and that's not the kind of author with whom you want to start a project.

Publishers want to match an artist themselves, AFTER they've signed up a manuscript, so those are the people to say "yes" to. I know it's tempting to take any and all work, but trust me, this road won't get you anywhere.

"If it's going to be self-published, sure, go for it. "

Make sure you and the writer knows exactly what is involved, labor wise.

I was approached to illustrate a book by an individual. I wasn't interested for many reasons, and simply said no. She eagerly insisted that she will pay me for my time. So I asked her if she was prepared to pay me for many months of full time work. The conversation ended very quickly.

Basically, I'm endorsing everything EA said, with this very small asterisk:

You say that you're not published and that you're new to the business. It may be worth your while to engage with this person just for the experience of having to work with a pre-set text.

Not having complete freedom to choose the topics of the pictures and the necessity of working with someone else's opinions are both very central experiences when working in children's books.

It's really not the same head space as creating samples of your own choosing, as many an illustration tyro has discovered to his or her consternation.

I strongly - strongly - recommend not doing anything without money up front, and everything EA has said from the publishers' is true.

But if you really do like the texts, you may decide that the experience is worthwhile for its own sake as a sort of unpaid internship.

At the very least, you may get a portfolio piece or two out of it that you wouldn't have found your way to otherwise.

EA, I love that you often address Illustrators in your blog. There aren't many Industry blogs that do, so thank you.
Illustrator, the fact that this writer has contacted you with their manuscript attached, yet not explained what they intend to do with your work (self publish or submit) and not given you their budget or asked what you might charge is all too common.
Illustrators might get one request like this a week, often never hearing from the writer again, once they have replied with their rates for self publishing or explained to the writer that they do not need art to accompany a PB submission.
If you are interested in this project then you can ask the writer what his/her budget for illustration is. This will result in either never hearing from the person again (WHAT, they want MONEY for this great opportunity of working on my manuscript!!!!) or an offer.
Be prepared to say NO to any of these following scenarios...
From the new writer:
"I'm self publishing this, so I can't offer any money up front but will give you 50% of the profits"
"If you illustrate my book and I submit it and a publisher wants it, you will get 50% of anything I get"
"This will be a great exposure for you"
"This will be a good portfolio piece"
No, No, NO and NO!!!:)

Christine, excellent list of things to say "no" to. I second each of those "no"s. I'm grateful to EA, too, for addressing illustrators' concerns.

Walkinginpublic, yes, the request itself reflects badly on the writer's professionalism.

Anon@2:52, I find it's hard for most non-illustrators to fathom how much work goes into a picture book. There's an old interview with Marla Frazee on Jama Rattigan's site, where she says, "When I read a manuscript, I want not to like it. In all honesty, I want to say no. If I end up liking it, I want not to like it enough. If I love it, then it starts to get complicated." It really is a big investment.

Working Illustrator, you make an interesting point about illustrating another person's text. For the illustrator who has his/her heart set on working that way, this project could be good practice. But I think it bears mentioning that trying to get paired with a writer isn't necessarily the easiest route to publication these days. Illustrators with any yen to tell their own stories might do well to invest their labor and time in developing those.

illustrators get approached regularly by:

- writers who think they need to find their own illustrator before approaching a publisher

- writers who are wanting to bypass normal publication routes so they try to "submit" ms's to published illustrators instead of agents or publishers

- writers who want to us to do a full book of illustrations on spec - often with no specific publishing plans yet

- writers who want to "hire" us for token amounts of money to illustrate entire books, again, often with no clear plans


Most writers who approach illustrators are naive, but some are being sneaky [unpublished writers trying to use a published illustrators connections]. In most cases, writers approaching illustrators suggests a lack of understanding of how the business works. Be careful. Research is pretty easy to do nowadays, what does it say that someone hasn't done the basic? Trying to sell an illustrated book is like thinking you are supposed to fully furnish a house in order to sell it.

A red flag in the question is "I'm not quite sure whether they intend to self-publish or submit the "final work" to an actual publishing house" That strikes me as something that a person who knows what they are asking for would make sure to be clear about up front when making the initial inquiry.

An interesting discussion. I have often wished I could illustrate my mss. I have such clear pictures in my head but I appreciate that I can't allow my illustration guidelines to be too prescriptive.

My main frustrations are with those celebrities who do indeed seem to have a 'pass' to produce children's books of a dubious quality.

It's not worth being angry at the celebrities. Look at it this way... the people who BUY those crummy-written horrendously dull idiotic celebrity books are NOT GOING TO READ YOURS ANYWAY. Too completely different Genres.

Well said, EA. Though the underwater balance beam is my favorite event.

An author/illustrator needs to be good at both art & text. There are artists who are very fine writers; Cornelia Funke for one. I just bought Mark Teague's heavily-illustrated middle grade novel, Doom Machine. Looking forward to checking out his writing in that. Then, there are classic guys like Ray Bradbury, who illustrated some of his covers.
As a writer who is also an artist, I take slight offense to the assumption that one cannot do both really well. This "issue" will be more in the spotlight as it becomes more common for middle grade and YA novels to be art/text hybrids.

Even if some folk do get a 'pass' the bottom line is I cannot draw/paint/illustrate and I must focus on writing a story that wins the publishers over. I cannot do anything else and dwelling on any injustices is time away from the task that will get ME published (although I do reserve the right to have the occasional whinge about it).

Rosalind, I share your wish, in reverse. If only I could put down words to go with my illustrations:)

Ah to be a double threat:)

True, EA.

Writing and illustrating a dummy book is a really different way of working from writing all by itself. We often do the two simultaneously or write, then dummy up the ms and then go back and edit the writing. And often the beauty of the project is in the dummy itself.

(Carin, I LOVE your art!!)

As a veteran illustrator with over 20 years in the children's publishing industry, I can tell you that most illustrator's turned author-illustrators do not take on the role of author any less seriously than they do their job of illustrator. I am now actively pursuing the author-illustrator title, and before submitting anything, have taken years of writing classes, joined and participated in critique groups with other published authors and author-illustrators, attend conferences and pay for critiques with editors, and read everything I can about the publishing industry...like this blog. I don't know many author-illustrators that just randomly decide they will whip out a manuscript in fifteen minutes. So...while some books by author-illustrators may seem less worthy of publication, I think that can be said of all published picture books...some are gems and some, well, they leave you scratching your head. I just wouldn't assume that all illustrators turned authors have no clue about writing, many have worked as hard as any other writer to get something published.

anon 5:00 said -

"So...while some books by author-illustrators may seem less worthy of publication, I think that can be said of all published picture books...some are gems and some, well, they leave you scratching your head"

I also haven't noticed that author/illustrators seem to have any kind of "pass" in terms of writing quality. Seems the same range of quality as everything else to me.

this is an awesome blog - so glad i found it :)

Thank you, AE! And I agree with your comment. Author/illustrators have some advantage in making a picture book organic. (That said, there are writers and artists who work brilliantly when paired by editors. Ten Little Fingers and Ten Little Toes is as perfect in its way as The Snowy Day.) Anonymous, I second what you say.

Ignore your non-writer friends.

If you spend some time around Verla Kay's Blueboard (free!) you'll quickly see that a MAJOR part of writing fiction is rewrites, revisions, and then thinking you have it right only to have an editior say--- "But I think it would be better in the FIRST person!" And then crying, gnashing teeth, sighing, starting the rewrite, looking at the finished project and thinking, "Man, the process stunk, but..... SHE WAS RIGHT!"

The whole POINT of an editor is to take your uncut diamond, show you how best to show off its qualities, and tell you which setting will really make it shine.

If this wasn't the case, if revising was the equivelant of selling out, then most self-published books would be great art!

And they're not. Because we NEED editors.....

WV: unpenabil -- I wanted to write a coherent novel about lasers, spider monkeys, and malfunctioning GPS, but found it unpenabil, so I gave up.

Re. people who think responding to an editor is debasing your work: If this is their understanding (or lack thereof), I'm not sure there's anything you can say. You' could try drawing a diagram of the publishing process. Or perhaps you could gently suggest they look up "editor" in a dictionary. I think Miss Manners would recommend a "Thank you for your opinion," followed by a perplexed and pitying stare, which would show that you are taking said opinion and discounting it.

"Morons everywhere think they have a right to an opinion."

Awesome. You rock with your brutal honesty!

Amen.

I suspect many people confuse the art of writing with the artefact of writing. And at a more fundamental level, most people don't understand that the words on the page are only an approximation of the story in your head. If there are other words that give a better approximation of the story, why would we hesitate to use them?

I'm fascinated by the left/right brain dynamics at work when we distil thoughts and turn them into writing. It just so happens that I shared a post about Mindful Writing today, should you be interested in a bit more on the subject.

Wow! it must have been great to a question from someone who wants to work with editors and do revisions!

Agreed. Even those famous great artists that EA mentions had famous great artist mentors who inspired and critiqued their work! Writing is a collaboration with many people - agent, editor, copy editor, designer. You don't have to go with every suggestion, but you do have to listen and learn. Writers not open to that input should keep a journal and leave it at that. (The question writer seems quite capable of working with editors. That last bit was meant for the people giving her flak.)

Oh my, do not listen to those non-writer friends! Wonderful things can happen during the revision process, especially with the input of a terrific editor.

About revisions? I'd rather do them now then read about it in a bad review!

A huge part of The Author Fantasy for people is the idea that you get to do "whatever you want" and it "gets published" [hello, that is the internet, not book publishing!]. It seems to be pretty darn surprising that editors 'edit', and yes, the general public can be shocked and confused. Just a heads up: the same people will also be shocked if you don't become rich overnight, if your book is not in every single store they shop in, if you don't go on a book tour, etc.

Wait, did you just call Van Gogh a pain in the ass? :)

One time after attending a retrospective of fine art from (if I recall) about 1850 onward, my mom and I had a conversation speculating about why poverty, angst, rage, and poor emotional health became inextricably linked with people's idea of a great artist. We came up with quite a few theories (including one that as photography became mainstream, other forms of visual expression needed a raison-d'être beyond mere representation) (but that was just one of our theories) and we also decided that we didn't see any reason a person couldn't be happy and agreeable and still create beautiful art. And we both felt that some of the most angsty art was tiresome. I appreciate Picasso's genius, but I've also never particularly related to much of what he has to say. (Not that I'm a big fan of anodyne Thomas-Kincade-Painter-of-Light types of art, but I also don't need art to scream and wail at me to find it interesting or beautiful.)

Anyway, I can definitely see how editors would prefer to work with humble, reasonable writers.

It would be a big risk for them to say yes to your ms if it still needs work and they have no idea if you are capable of doing that work. Its great news if they want to see your ms again after revising.

Revising is normal but I only make changes I am comfortable with. If I don't make a suggested change I only do this if I can justify why I don't think the change works and often the editor has agreed. You both want the book to do well so its a collaborative process not an adversarial one. Good luck

Until then, you have something to learn. And if you don't think so, then you are never, never going to get beyond being anything but a Great Pain in My Ass.

LOL. You do have a lovely way with words.

I would ask your non-writer friends if they have ever had their work critiqued and have they ever had to make corrections or changes? Illustrators go through this too. You can work on a spread sketch for days, submit it and get a whole chapter book of changes. You make these changes, then another round of changes may be forth coming. Once in a while, you dodge the bullet and you only get a "we love it" but there is usually something to be revised.
I don't know if there is a job that doesn't demand alterations at times.
I'm sure a framer who's foreman comes along and tells him the wall he just put up is crooked, can't say I won't take it apart and do it again, it looks good to me:)

You seem to be feeling especially snarky today, EA.

I agree with those who have advised the original poster to ignore non-writer friends. Find a group of writers to talk to about your book, and use the time with your non-writers for talk about sports, the weather, politics, and whatever other things you think about in your life.

Sandy Asher wrote a book called WRITING IT RIGHT: HOW SUCCESSFUL CHILDREN'S AUTHORS REVISE AND SELL THEIR STORIES. For those in the NY/NJ/PA area, SCBWI-Eastern PA is holding a "live" version on Feb 19 in Lancaster, PA, with five authors speaking.

(No, I'm not Sandy, just trying to be helpful!)

I'm in the process of revising now, based on rejection comments from editors. My agent (and I agreed) recognized a common thread and I am working on that aspect of the novel, even though it was something intentionally left out. The challenge is to add it and not ruffle the integrity of the story or characters.

I am always up for a challenge that improves my book.

Even Maurice Sendaks and Pablo Picassos can benefit from the input of others - maybe not as often as a newbie, but no one is ever so good that he/she can never benefit from outside opinions.

Only dictators don't have to take direction from others. Did Michael Jordan have a coach? Did he listen to his coach? Does that somehow make him not the most brilliant player ever? Do all bestselling authors have editors? Do they listen to them? (hint: the answer is youbetcha) Editors are always trying to make your work into the best possible work it can be. We all have strengths and weaknesses. Don't you want someone to help with your weaknesses? How can that be a bad thing? Your friends are wrong/crazy. Don't listen to them.

Here's why EA is right about this: the practice of art is primarily about decisionmaking: this word, not that word. This color, not that color.

If you write it and you agree with it, you've decided.

That makes it your art, whether the impetus to write it came out of the aether or from an editor's notes.

Which is why, I have to add, you have to be pretty sure about those notes. I'm not as sanguine as everyone else here seems to be about the ability of editors to know what works best.

In my experience, editors frequently have good instincts about what's not working - they're good at flagging problems - but their suggested solutions to those problems are usually only useful as springboards to the more creative fixes I come up with on my own or with the help of my crit group.

An admiring "I never would have thought of that," is one of the most satisfying things you can hear from an editor regarding a problem you've both tussled with.

It's also pretty central to your job as a creative writer.

Make sure you're following advice - anyone's advice, your editor's or your mailman's - because in your best judgement, it's right for your book.

If you're changing stuff just to appease a person with the power to generate a check, then I'm sorry to say it but your friends are right: you're debasing your art.

And maybe that doesn't matter - it certainly happens all the time - but for me, the process of getting a book published is way too much work to end up with something I'm not proud of.

If you think a rejection letter feels bad, try getting a box of author copies that you don't want to open, don't want to show your friends, and throw to the back of the basement without opening.

Because that happens all the time, too.

If you have a good match with an editor the revisions should make basic sense and take your book to a better place, or bring about a different but mutually satisfying way to address the issues. If not, then it might not be the best match. Period. It is not about being "debased" or not, but more about seeing if you and your editor can share a vision about your project. In my opinion [as an author] the editor asking for revisions before a contract is giving both sides the opportunity to test out if this is a good match. If it seems good, go forward and hope to develop a working relationship. If not, keep looking. Forget the talk of "debasing", and concentrate more on finding someone you can work productively with.

When you think about it is crazy to assume a publisher will spend thousands of dollars putting out a product that they have no input in, but that is what many outsiders expect. They assume this because many never think of publishing as an actual business, but more like some kind of fairy godmother that suddenly makes people's life magical and romantic and effortless. A publishing contract is not like winning a lottery, it is getting a job and joining a team of professionals.

You can't just bypass your agent and submit to an editor, unless you have okayed it with your agent. But if your agent can't manage to look at a client's PB ms. for several months, you may want to reconsider whether you're okay with your agent.

I'm wondering about the agent mentioned at the end of this post. Is this good practice, especially from an agent who knows there is editor interest?

I would ask, does your agent know that the editor is interested in seeing? Would he be willing to send it to her, at least?

Because if you just decide "screw it" and send without even talking to him first - well, if it were me, I'd be pretty upset if a client did that to me.

The second question reminds me of someone who was once part of my critique group. She went to several different critique groups. After a while, her response to any comment on one of her manuscripts was, essentially, "I made it that way because another reader said the opposite of what you're saying." She was frustrated with the conflicting advice. She couldn't evaluate the advice because:

1.) She had no clear idea in her own head of what was important to her in her stories; and

2.) For her manuscripts to improve, her writing needed to improve, but she couldn't see that she needed to do that work. She expected her critique partners to do the job of improving her manuscripts.

Submitting your story to critique groups will not "get it polished up for submission;" only you can do that.

Also, I wonder if some of the questioner's critique groups consist entirely of newbie writers who lack the skills and knowledge to give each other useful advice. This person might be better off taking a class, to help her bring her work to a level that will get her into a better critique group.

My agent and I discussed (and he agreed) that since I made a connection with this editor that I would personally follow up rather then have him follow up with the editor on my behalf. I of course told the editor that I was represented by an agent (at our initial meeting at the conference)and included (cc'd) agent on my emails to the editor when I followed up. I am still waiting for a response from the editor.

One thing about critique groups, reading is subjective. You're probably never going to please everybody, so getting conflicting comments is normal.

You have to decide which comments matter to you. Look at what they're saying, try to understand what's tripping them up, and decide if it's something you want to fix. Then find some more critique partners and see what they say.

No story is a lost cause. It always comes down to how much work is needed to make it good enough, and whether you're willing to do that work.

For the picture book writer, I would strongly suggest that you finish your other manuscripts before submitting. And then you just submit the one manuscript. Almost always an interested agent is going to ask to see more pb manuscripts before they sign you. You don't want to be trying to finish those in a hurry because you don't have any others ready.

Also, keep in mind that some critiquers are just too nice. Especially if they don't know you, they may be unwilling to tell you hard truths like "Your sentence structure is so convoluted it's making my eyes bleed!" So try to find someone who is willing to be honest.

Also, genre matters. If, for instance, you write sci fi, you should seek out critiques from writers/editors who read and enjoy sci fi. If the writers in your critique group detest your genre, you'll never get anywhere.

And, honestly, if the other writers are terrible at the craft, their critiques are worthless.

Don't join a critique group just to be in a group. They're a major time drain, and a worthless critique is worse than no critique at all.

Hold out for a really good group, or swap with people who are a good fit for you. (To get good swaps, it helps to work on your critiquing skills. You need to GIVE good critiques to GET good critiques.)

Ideally, you should also be working toward the ability to self-critique. I've had a handful of really good critique partners, and the best thing is that as I write, I can hear their voices in my head. "Good grief! The last book it was doors! Now it's dusty streets!" and whatnot. At which point, I put flags in the text to warn me to go fix the problems BEFORE I try to get anyone to critique it!

The more work you can do yourself, the better critique partener you'll be!

I have only one question for the author. You mention the PB is 20 pages? I've never illustrated a PB with only 10 spreads, unless this is intended as a board book for the very young perhaps??
Not that my experience is vast, so is this an acceptable number of pages for a PB?

Yes, there's less money for picture book writers, and agents do need to make money, but I would argue that:

1) Editors are acquiring fewer picture books in general.

2) Editors seem to be looking more for author-strators, because you don't need to worry about attaching an illustrator to the project, and the editor can get the book on a much earlier list (and there's only one creative type to hassle if the delivery dates are missed, etc).

3) It's way easier to get marketing and sales on board if you can give them a sample piece of final art or a full dummy w/ the submissions.

C. Cret, I would only disagree with your number 2 point.
While it may sound easier to deal with one person doing two jobs, there are few creators that are excellent at both writing and illustrating. For the illustrator that is new to writing, the art may come in on deadline and with ease, but there is often more involvement and work needed from the Editor in "helping" the illustrator with the text, less involvement needed in that area when they are dealing with a seasoned author.
I will venture to say that illustrators SEE their story through illustration and that the writing takes more time then the art.
So, not sure if the polished project comes in any faster then usual.

"there's less money for picture book writers, and agents do need to make money"

That's the criteria? Talk about cheezy.

If the agent represents picture books you always send in the whole manuscript unless they only accept queries.

The picture book market is probably one of the hardest to break into right now--I've heard that from lots of people. Make sure that you have at least three or four other picture book manuscripts that have been worked over and are just as publishable as the one you are querying with. If an agent is interested, they almost always will ask to see other work. Because they get so little money per manuscript (generally) they want to know you can produce more.

Also, generally for your first published picture book, the idea usually needs to be pretty unusual. I have read a lot of good picture book manuscripts that haven't gotten published just because they aren't unique enough for a first time author.

As hard as it is, it is doable, but more than likely it will take a long time. Don't give up and keep writing. I just signed with an agent last year and my first picture book comes out next year. And no, I'm not the illustrator. But it took me a good 7 years of querying to get there.

"That's the criteria? Talk about cheezy."

I'm not saying I absolutely agree with that criteria, but I don't think I know enough about agents' businesses to be able to judge. They do have to make a living at this, you know, and if they spend a LOT of time working to sell a picture book manuscript that then nets them $500... well, maybe that pays them a reasonable wage for the effort and time it took, and maybe it doesn't. I don't know.

But you can't blame agents for taking the money into account. Most of them don't have another job, and they can't do this as a public service.

Agents have to consider money, Publishers consider money, Editors, Art Directors, Printers...EVERYONE working in Publishing, it books, picture books or otherwise, consider the money. Writers are the only ones that have been convinced or believe on their own that it's not about the money. This is a business, period!
If anyone finds an agent/rep that says money doesn't matter, run far, run fast!

Yes, it is pretty "cheezy" to want to make enough money to live.

Don't those bloodsuckers know that they are supposed to work for years, for free, with no insurance, and limited chance that the tiny quiet manuscripts they've taken on will ever net them more than $5 an hour, and that only if they are lucky?

How dare agents try to run their own businesses efficiently and profitably, THOSE BASTARDS.

Out-of-print picture books seem suited especially well to POD, small press or self-published. POD gives the writer a second chance to promote the book and prove its value to readers. And hopefully you're still writing, right? Good luck.

Ouch. Good question, good answer. I hope this never happens to me.

I'm curious, would this be a good time for a writer to self publish this book?

It's so sad for an author to see her book go out of print, knowing that not enough was done to let people know about its existence. Sure, many books that die are probably not very good, but some are.

Bull-you-know-what!
Books go out of print quickly because:

1) the publishers have to pay taxes on the warehouse.

2) Marketing is now defunct for 95% of the authors and illustrators. They have to do it on their own, and truly, after much experience with this, they suck at marketing,

Tell the truth and stop making authors and illustrators the brunt of the blame.

Sally Watson, one of my favorite childhood authors (she writes kick-butt historical fiction with female protagonists) was out of print a few years back. If you went to alibris or abebooks or amazon, copies of her books--ex-library--- were selling for 100.00 and up.

So she came back from Britain and got together with a POD company to produce paperback versions of the books.

It seems to have worked for her--but then, there was enough of a demand.

So, you might want to see what your out of print picture books are listed at--and see if they're actually SELLING at that price. If you can POD them for less and really just want to see the book in the hands of kids, it might be worthwhile.....

ALSO-- are you an author illustrator, or just the author? Because, if you're just an author, you don't really have rights to the BOOK--- just the words. That gets trickier, since the people who DO love and remember your book and want to buy it for their kids will want it WITH THE ORIGINAL ILLUSTRATIONS/

The reality is that most books go out of print irrespective of quality after their initial print run is sold out. Much of this is due to warehouse taxes as well as the difficulties of promoting back list. Another consideration is economic feasibility: unless a book takes off to become a big seller, most first print runs are much larger than subsequent runs, and so cost more per book.

Another consideration: books often go out of print because their publishers go belly up, are bought, or consolidate imprints. That's happened to me a number of times. In one case, I was able to bring the book back into print with another publisher since it was clear that the issue wasn't with the book—it had been well-reviewed and had sold well on its own—but with the publisher, who was financially insolvent.

Yes, most authors suck at marketing AND lack the resources for their efforts to be of any significance.

Ishta I don't think anyone ever intends for their beloved book to have a small run and go out of print. But if it does it's good to have strategies for giving it another chance.

Irrespective of their merits few books, picture or otherwise, make the leap from NZ to international publication and it would be interesting to know whether trying the book in a different country would have a positive result.

The internet, Twitter, emails and FB are free. Today's authors and illustrators must take on another full time career as self-promoter... or hire someone. Sad, but it must get done. Most creatives I meet aren't trained for this new career. But it can be learned. I'm going to say it, most of poor marketing comes from a self-entitled attitude and lack of training. There's a great lack of proper use and wasteful use of freebie tools... so an author can tell the world what color sweater they wore. Then we wonder why the world does not take juvenile publishing seriously and why our books tank?

It took me a few minutes to realize that the book was originally published in Australia. :-) I was like, "Why does she keep talking about Australia?"

Thanks for the insight into foreign covers. I always wondered why foreign cover art is so different from that found in the US. Clearly our covers wouldn't work there, or they'd keep the ones we have, right? I think the whole foreign rights aspect of publishing is fascinating.

Another option would be to put it out yourself on createspace and kindle.

I asked the question originally and it was published in New Zealand. I think the cover art is wonderful for both first and second books but I'm not sure what overseas markets would think. I don't know how much effort was put into shopping the first book around overseas by my publisher (they don't seem to sell a lot of foreign rights beyond Australia and Asia). I have kept writing (novels and picture books) and being published but I would love to have this sequel in book form. I'm contemplating going the e-book route.

thanks for answering my question:)

Ha, Melinda, As I was reading the post, I thought to myself. Hey that's what happened to Melinda. The managing director of one of my publishers said that it is almost impossible to get their local list picked up by US and UK. And, even Australia, though our books sell there, doesn't put much interest into Kiwi titles. They are more interested in promoting their own publications.

What you need is what I've done and Vanda Symon - get an agent in either the US or the UK

There's actually one editor at one of the Big 6 who reads every PB manuscript sent to him - by email.

The trick is, you have to know who he is because he doesn't go around saying "send me your stuff!"

And, considering it's a Big 6, his turn around is lightning quick. I've gotten responses from him in under a month, with comments and suggestions included in the email.

After the original, he read the revise / resubit version, with comments and suggestions included in the email.

He's an anomaly, but of the opinion that if he at least scans everything, he might find something worthwhile.

It's been about a year since I sent something to him, but I doubt his policy's changed unless someone broke the "rule" and shared his email with a bunch of friends who buried him in unsolicited MS.

I hope not. He's exceptionally nice and helpful

I worked for a publishing house 2000-2004 that said it took unsolicited mss. however, the best "look" that any of them got was the 5 seconds it took for us to glance at the cover letter while stuffing the ms and the photocopied rejection letter into the SASE. If even 5% of them got more than a 5 second look, I'd be surprised. The cover letters did all get a glance, but only a glance. Some publishers do in fact say they accept unsolicited when in practice, they don't do anything with them.

"I'm a well-published pb author who doesn't want to give a piece of my paltry advance to an agent."

I'm detecting reluctance to take on an agent. For the record, my agent routinely negotiates a higher fee/advance than I could manage on my own, not to mention a much better contract. She also gets my new stuff to the right desk.

Don't get an ulcer, get an agent.

If you think an agent is only a gate keeper to getting to the publishing house, you really ought to research what an agent does. Often times, they make up the difference in the 15% you pay them. If you didn't have an agent you more than likely would receive less money.

Plus having an agent means that I don't have to research which editors want what and who to send my manuscript to and how to send it. I don't have to negotiate my contracts (which are huge and hard to understand), I don't have to worry about the money--the agent takes care of all that, giving me more time to write, more time to produce more books, and more time to make more money.
Plus, if I don't understand something, I have someone I can go to to answer all my dumb author question.

Like it or not, publishers have outsourced their slush pile reading to agents. There is simply no staff left at publishing houses to do the work.

If they ever figure out how to outsourced to Chinese literary agents, heaven help us.

Uh, I'm the author of the original question--and I've had agents--two of them. In neither case did the agents know anything more about editors' needs than I could find out on my own. (Yes, each was helpful at times.)

If I wrote novels, that would be a different story--but I don't. PB authors DO NOT need an agent in ordinary times, or so it's been. But I may need to change my tune.

Thanks for your comments. Each one was REALLY interesting.

For us newbies, can you name the "Big 6?"
Scholastic, Harper Collins, Simon & Schuster, Little Brown, Random House, Penguin?

I think maybe Macmillan instead of Scholastic. (Macmillan includes Farrar, Holt, and Roaring Brook.)

As an editor at one of the houses that's recently switched to a "respond only if interested" policy, I can tell you that our slush pile is alive and well and we still read it. Our staff is a little smaller and much busier than in past years, and doing away with the SASE process was the only way we could keep up with the deluge. I think we're better readers now that the response expectations are off our backs.

But I see the letter author's point, too, because I've noticed that not every agent knows how to submit picture books effectively. I guess it's possible for PB authors to stay unagented, but these days they may have to work the conferences more to make more direct contact with agents and find out who's buying what.

Big six=
hachette, harper, macmillan, penguin, random, simon.

Of course only a fool would think those are the only places to be published. Scholastic and Houghton are very large as well, and some smaller houses like Candlewick and Chronicle publish books very well, too.

Also, some of the niche publishers are very nice--- My kids have been very happy with Sylvan Dell's books-- a tight focus on nature and animals, but good at what they do.

This is where, for a newer writer, some quality time with a "writer's market", a bookstore, and a librarian can really pay off...

Things are changing with the publishers that most of us aspire to work with. Time was that while the larger houses were closed to unagented authors, Illustrators were still welcome to submit on their own. Now, following the "2010 Children's Book Writers and Illustrators Market", even the Illustrators must be agented.
There are not enough Illustrator Reps so where does that leave even the published Illustrators, especially those that have not found their inner Author?
What I have seen lately in the book stores are more and more PB's by Illustrator turned Authors. I don't know if this a result of what Publishers are looking for or if more Illustrators are realizing they must write in order to illustrate.
Certainly the profession is changing.

Does anyone need a right arm? I would give mine to know who the big 6 replying editor in the first comment is.

I adore Skippyjon Jones, and love reading it aloud. There's so much to love about it -- the illustrations that add details and depth to the story (faves: when he looks in the mirror and sees his reflection as a chihuahua; and Mama Junebug Jones making lunch with kittens on the table), the inventive names (e.g., Skippyjon himself and Mama Junebug, Mr. Fluffernutter, Mr. Cocopugs, plus Jilly Boo Jones and all the Chimichangos).

But the question asks about the language. I don't think I can speak for anyone but myself, but what I love about the language in Skippyjon Jones is the way it blends Spanish, English, and Spanish-accented English. It is just plain fun to put on my "very best Spansh accent" and read lines like "Then all the Chimichangos went crazy loco," and "The dude just wants his beans back." Not to mention, "I am a CHIHUAHUA," and "aaaAAHHChOO-Pichu!"

as a bookseller i once watched a hispanic woman attempt to read a skippyjohn book to her child (at the child's insistence). she had to stop and reread a few of the pages and half way through convinced her fidgety son to pick another book.

in private she told me she felt like her mouth was being forced to adopt read in a stereotypical voice "you know, like the frito bandito." she said she found the experience insulting.

i do not understand the popularity of these books, and i can't quite shake off the feeling that they might be borderline racist. i also found that kids who liked skippyjohn were also likely to enjoy junie b. jones books, another series that drives (and many others) crazy for its use of langauge.

I actually think the rollicking plots and language
is the exact reason why the books are succesful. That and the illustrations of course.

The character is SO imaginative, bouncy and alive just as the text itself. I also speak English and Spanish and I find the books hilarious and understand why a kid likes them.

These are one of those really great books that are truly targeted to the kid reading it. Both in text and art. No doubt about that.

My son and I love Skippyjon Jones. The attraction- Fun! It is fun to read them even if they are a bit challenging sometimes. We giggle as we work our way through the zany language. We take turns using silly accents. Judy Schachner gives us a story we get to interact with. Skippyjon likes to pretend and how exciting we get to pretend too!

I really didn't get these books until I heard the author reading one on CD. She really does make it come alive. And yet I still find them difficult to read and frankly confusing for children. Not really a fan.

David Elzey brings up an interesting point. The first time I read Skippyjon Jones, I wondered about it. I noticed that the author didn't have an obviously Spanish surname. I wondered if the author was a Spanish-speaker, and if not was it okay for her to write using this "Spanish accent"? (Aside: linguists tell us that "accents" are a fallacy, and that it is more accurate to talk about dialects -- but that is a separate topic.) I don't know if I ever came up with an answer to my own question. But to me, it's important to note the context and tone. A word like "racism" implies that one group of people puts itself above another. I note that there is no taunting in the book, no disparagement. The book shows a child (in the guise of a Siamese cat) using his vivid imagination, and its tone suggests to me joyful exploration rather than exploitation or disparagement.

I find them really offensive. I don't understand their popularity.

Have you heard the CD of Judy Schachner reading any of the books? She does it really well. I too struggled with my first reading, and did fine with subsequent readings. But when I heard her reading it on the CD, I thought, "THIS is a performance; this is what this book is all about."

And I like the imaginative playfulness of the books. They really see life through a child's eyes. And I enjoy the linguistic jokes that my kids might not be quite old enough to get, too. I think they're very clever.

I think what wows me the most is that this book has everything in it. It is language driven, story driven, character driven, art driven and idea driven. And it is completely original, something children and adults can identify with, fun to read, and heartfelt.

This book rests forever on my art table as my inspiration and aspiration. Unfortunately, achieving this level of greatness will most likely lead to my expiration.

Schachner is writing for kids, and kids are flat out tickled by the silly sounding word combinations in Skippyjon.

I have only one big requirement for picture books I read to my kids over and over: That it not make me want to blow my brains out.

Skippyjon passes the test. There are a lot of suicidal pb's out there, despite their political/social/racial/grammatical correctness.

My daughter (and I!) LOVE these books -- she had the first one memorized at 21/2 -- there was nothing cuter than hearing her recite, "Bangito! Crashito! Popito! Skippito!" in her little baby voice. Skippito is just so bad, and yet so irresistible -- one other commenter used the word "rollicking" and I think that hits it on the head. It's just plain FUN.
Some advice: listen to Judy Schachner read it on CD -- it will make ALL the difference. The rhythm and playfulness of the language comes alive (and you'll see how it's meant to be read!) I give this book often as a gift, but always with the CD, and I tell parents to let the author do the first read-aloud.

Haven't read Skippyjon, but I adore Junie B. Jones. If David Elzey is correct in comparing them I would probably enjoy Skippyjon as well.

There is something so playful and free and imaginative about Junie B. Jones that it just draws you in. As well as having the voice and character of a little girl down pat...

I think I'm going to have to go check out Skippyjon...

And as everyone has mentioned already - welcome back EA. We missed you :).

My copy came with a CD of Judy reading the story herself. It's wonderful. As Ursula Le Guin once wrote - most children enjoy the sound of language and trying out new words. I think this book is a good example of using fun words.

As a mixed Mexican/American family, we don't find the books racist. But then, we try not to manufacture insult where none exists.

I like them well enough and my kid enjoyed them when she was that age. One thing that always bothered me, though -- how come the three good little (boring) kitties) are girls, and the adventuresome, wild one is a boy?

My son brought these home from the library. When I tried to read them silently ("in my head") I couldn't do it. As soon as I read them aloud, the language just rolled off my tongue and I easily fell into the rhythm of the book. He loves the books and I find the infectious rhythm enjoyable too.

I struggle with whether the books are politically correct (I don't think they are racist--surely it's OK to celebrate another person's lanugage? I didn't feel the the author was making fun with her made-up and real Spanish words), but in general I struggle with political correctness. When my boy's a little older, I'll bring that issue up to him but for now, we use the books to encourage a love of reading and story.

I don't get Skippyjon Jones. For a while I kept trying to read one and get it because customers love these books.

But I've stopped trying and embraced the "It's not required that I love every popular book" mantra for SkippyJon Jones

When people ask about them I simply smile and say they're very popular.

I also don't get the Llama Llama picture books

David, I have to say that I'm with you. I'm bilingual and have taught Spanish-speaking bilingual students for many years, but I just can't enjoy these books, though I know many kids (Spanish-speaking and not) who LOVE them!

I can appreciate that others find the books to be a fun, rollicking read, but I can't read these aloud without feeling like there's a subtle element of poking fun at the way some people speak English.

I know others don't feel this way about the books and that's fine with me and I am confident the author meant no offense by her playful use of language. It's just not a book I will read aloud to students, but they can certainly check out the books at our school library, where they're hugely popular.

Personally I think Skippyjon books are too long, too hard to read aloud, and very possibly racist.

But whatever, as a bookseller who sees kids who adore the creature, I realize that my opinion is not what matters here.

I'm with Neal Pollack on this one:
http://www.nealpollack.com/archives/2009/04/skippyjon_racis.html

I am biracial (half Asian and half white) and if I came across a book that forced the reader to speak in a forced "Asian" accent and added "ching" and "ling" onto the ends of words to make them sound "Asian" I would be horrified.

To my mind, Llama Llama is best appreciated by the very young... like two and three year olds because of repetition of sounds and sentences. Also, the reference to Mama is something that those listeners identify with.

Very young children don't have to get a meaning or story out of something. That is why they like Nursery Rhymes. ;) (Not on the level that adults do.)

They chant them, and if we are lucky, they clap their hands with glee!

As an Illustrator it's the hilarious art that captures me first with any book and no doubt that is what attracts children to the books too.
I love funny. Funny art, funny writing and SJ is funny.
I love, love, LOVE JBJ as well although Junie B is a chapter book and more for the child who is already reading.
(as an adult I have every one of them in my library:)
I do see the points made by some about the book having a racist undertone and it may even be wrong to use a stereotypical Mexican accent while reading out loud to your child (or for a librarian to do so during story time)
I'm hoping some of the authors here with a hispanic or Latino background might comment on that aspect of the book.

Any time we approach another culture, we open the door for racism. I think people could read the Skippyjon Jones books with the intent of demeaning the sounds of Spanish or they could read them with the intent of playfully celebrating them. The author cannot do a lot to control that. But by making the character who lives in that world of entangled cultural references exciting, inventive, and energetic, I think she does what she can to demonstrate her own intent. Skippyjon Jones doesn't much care to be one thing or another--not English or Spanish, a cat or a dog--he likes to be it all.

Many of the kids who love these books grew up watching Dora and Diego on television and learned how to toss the occasional Spanish word into a short sentence. They don't find the mix of English and Spanish necessarily disconcerting.

The books may not be perfect, but twenty-years ago we would have been hard-pressed to find mainstream picture books that included English and Spanish as a matter of course (rather than as pedagogical materials). We wouldn't have seen Scholastic placing them in their book club flyers to be made available across the country. I see them as a sign of progress--even if we haven't really arrived yet. And I would at the same time encourage people who think the books dance to close to racism to write other books that take us further on the journey. Having choices in that Scholastic flyer (and on the book store shelves) would be even better.

I completely agree! I just don't "get it." I don't think the story is nearly as funny or as smart as it's promoted to be, yet people obviously think it's brilliant!

Then again, the illustrations in Fancy Nancy are brilliant to me, and worth buying every book that comes out. So detailed! And wouldn't you know it...my friend the other day said, "I can't stand those Fancy Nancy books. Their illustrations are so tacky."

So there you have it.

I love the Skippyjon Jones books and as a Hispanic American I've never had a problem with them. However, my sister who has a racist mother-in-law sees racism in everything, especially Skippyjon Jones. She actually got really upset when I brought these books home from the library to read to my nephew while he was visiting. He, on the other hand, enjoyed the playfulness of the story and the language.

Even after she told me how she felt about them, I read them again and again and tried to see how it was making fun of our 'race'. I think that if the author had a Spanish surname or even a Spanish first name, people would not pull the racism card when looking at this book. And still to this day, I don't see any racism in the book. I really just see a playful use of language, something which has been done plenty of times before.

I already commented but I just wanted to add that I honestly don't see the racism people are talking about in these books.

There is nothing offensive about them. They are just fun books for kids. I think people are getting to uptight and spend a lot of time trying to see the "political correctness" in things nowadays. It's a kid's book and it's a really funny, creative and fun one.

I was born in Venezuela, all my family is from Spain. I speak both English and Spanish, and I am very familiar with both cultures and my opinion is people might be a tad over reacting here.

Just my two cents..

An author also needs to make sure the audience will "get" the reference. No impact if there's no relevance.

There was a recent conversation on a writer's loop about whether YA readers would understand a reference to "Leave it to Beaver"... a quick unscientific poll showed that no, today's kids don't know much of anything about that show.

As far as I am aware, even the shortest conceivable excerpts from lyrics need formal permission, which is almost never granted free, and indeed is almost always prohibitively expensive. This is because a) a song lyric, as with a poem, contains a very limited number of words, and therefore even a one-line quotation constitutes a significant proportion of the total length; b) because of this, and because a novel is not a review, fair use does not apply; and c) the copyright in most lyrics is protected by lawyers employed by corporations, rather than by creators.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's actually an incredibly annoying - and unfair - aspect of copyright culture, one that has nothing to do with creators' rights, and everything to do with the same kind of psychotically over-zealous protectionism that will keep Mickey Mouse out of the public domain until hell freezes over.

very interesting, thanks for that. My agent made me take out all references to real characters, including extremely famous people like Keira Knightley, so it wouldn't date the book. It wouldn't have occurred to me before she suggested it, but now I completely understand the idea.

I just read and enjoyed Donna Gephart's How to Survive Middle School. The plot hinges on the character's fascination with and desire to emulate Jon Stewart.

I'm a huge fan of that comedian too. But I did wonder how the book would do with a reader unfamiliar with Mr. Stewart's work, or in a few years if, God forbid, Mr. Stewart should cease to be in the national spotlight.

Can't remember who it was, but some blogger recently commented that YA authors tend to artificially make their teen characters fans of bands that just happen to have been popular during the author's teen years! I would just add that teen/pop culture gets dated even faster than other aspects of society, so why go there?

This makes sense, but it's something I wouldn't even have thought of. Thanks for the reminder.

Re: Anon 9:34's comment, and very slightly relevant to the conversation: When I read Lizard Music I did not have the first earthly idea who Walter Cronkite was, but got the gist of it from the text and adored the book anyway.

I make reference in my sci-fi/dystopian novel to a '60s musician, referencing him as an historical figure. It makes no difference to the plot - but does underscore one character's love of "ancient" music. It did not bother my agent or editor. Which makes me think that intent and reason for the reference is really important, too.

I believe Jonathan Walker is correct in his analysis. I would not use lyrics in a work of fiction without the permission of the copyright holder.

Yes, if you quote song lyrics you have to pay hefty copyright fees.

What's so cheesy about made up famous people? Generally I find fictional celebrities preferable to the real ones. More interesting, anyway.

There was a book, not yet published, on Authonomy that focused on Rose from Titanic. I asked the author if he'd gotten permission to use the character. He said he planned to get it AFTER he sold the book....

I know a number of people who are skillful writers of adult nonfiction, who do specialized writing as part of a job. This is a different set of skills from being able to write a captivating story for young children. You also need to know the market, what's already been published, and how the business works. Read a few books on writing for children and explore Harold Underdown's website (and read the articles). That will get you started.

Good advice. So many people have the itch to write, but don't know where to start. I would also suggest attending a regular round-table critique group. Your local library might have one or know of one, or you can look for writer's groups at meetup dot com.
The articles and interviews that can be found in the Chilren's Writers and Illustrators Market are also an excellent source of information and advice. You should be able to find a copy at the library.
The more you read, the more you'll learn!
God luck.

Another reason to pursue freelance writing or illustration work, besides "building credits" or a resume - is to learn what it takes to be an actual working professional in those areas. The more professional freelance work you do, the less steep your learning curve once you land a book contract. And believe me, the book curve is steep even when you have lots of experience under your belt in related media areas. Even though many people do things in their communities, churches and schools that involve writing or illustrating, even if on schedule or for an audience - doing what it takes to go out and do paid writing and illustrating work will take your skillset to another level.

I personally believe that the recommendation to new children's book writers to first publish in magazines, e-zines, websites, etc. is overrated because a) if they write a standout book, their prior experience just won't matter, and b) the kind of material required by magazines etc. isn't quite the same as that which will do well as a book. Just as writing romance isn't quite the right preparation for writing crime, writing for magazines and e-zines isn't qite the right preparation for writing books. My advice - if it's books you want to write and publish, just go ahead. WRITE BOOKS.

Actually, as someone with children's magazine writing credits who has NOT yet managed to sell a novel, and who knows lots of people who sell novels who haven't had credits, I have to say:

As a 'getting a foot in the door' tool, credits are overrated. And writing good short stories does NOT translate automatically to writing a good novel. Writing credits are not a silver bullet that suddenly makes the pain and sweat of hunting for agents turn to fields of flowers and butterflies.....

HOWEVER, if you have a great short story idea, write it as a short story. Learn the difference between a poem, a picture book, a short story, a novella and a novel. Submit your work to the appropriate markets. Realize that a good short story will not work as a PB, and that a novel is more than a string of short stories.

Also, Magazine acceptances CAN provide a small influx of cash and a large influx of self-esteem. BUT the time you spend on short stories and poems is time you're not spending on your novel. So, if your writing time is limited, going after magazines may actually DECREASE your odds of selling a novel. Writing publishable stories is time consuming, even when the stories themselves are under 800 words!

So, if you want to write for magazines, write for magazines. But don't use the credits as a step on the "sell my novel" ladder. That's not efficient or particularly helpful.

Instead, write an awesome novel that will draw readers in and make them request fulls. Noone is going to request a full of a crummy novel, even if you have good magazine credits.

Duotrope, Duotrope, Duotrope.

Why it can be good to get real work experience in related areas of the commercial arts:

Over the years, I have known several different writers / artists who blew possible opportunities to be published because they didn't handle initial acquisition inquiries professionally or realistically. Yes, this was after book publishers expressed interest in their work. What happened? They were basically smart and talented people [they had obviously been able to make it that far in the process!], but none understood the simple basics of actually working in the commercial arts. Their mistakes were a combination of lack of experience and not educating themselves about book field basics. They each inadvertently responded in ways that made them look unprofessional, ungrounded or possibly high maintenance and they each never heard back. Cringe material. I don't think it is totally necessary, but if you have professional commercial experience it will surely help you relate in ways that don't inadvertently sound alarms.

I love the last two paragraph of this. The examples really help and I'll probably steal them for the next time someone asks me if their niece (who is trying to build up her high school portfolio) could do the illustrations for my book. :)

As someone who keeps up with industry news and guidelines, I always find it hard to explain to outsiders why I've chosen to do things a certain way, so thanks!

I'm not a picture book author but this is something I've wondered about often. What about the pay? Who technically pays for the illustrations? Does the pub house cover that or does it eventually come out of the author's paycheck?
Great info!

First person with a hammer! LOL!!!

LOL! Thanks for this - both the informative, this-is-how-the-industry-works part at the beginning, and the humorous, why-am-I-still-telling-people-this part at the end.

Welcome back.

Welcome back, EA. I've missed you!

http://michellecusolito.blogspot.com/

It's great to see this Author writing in with questions other then how do I find an illustrator. She/He has obviously done some homework. There are still so many new writers still contacting Illustrators and Illustrators spend a lot of time explaining how the industry works to them. So glad you have posted this.
L.A,, publishers pay the Illustrator an advance (typically higher then the one to the Author) and then the same percentage of royalties as the Author gets. Usually 5% and 5%.
While the advance may be higher for the Illustrator (because they are being asked to work for months up to a year) it all evens out between the two creatives, as this just means it will take longer for the illustrators royalties to kick in.

"While the advance may be higher for the Illustrator (because they are being asked to work for months up to a year) it all evens out between the two creatives, as this just means it will take longer for the illustrators royalties to kick in."

Thanks, Chris. Never thought of that... silly me. Got my head stuck in a tune of gouache.

And great to have YOU back too, Ms. Tripp!! You rock!

AE

I have to take issue with the last sentence: "It's too long to be one book (41,500 words)." This is not extremely long for MG fiction. Just as three examples, The Penderwicks books are 54,000 and 63,000 words, and The Candymakers by Wendy Mass is 102,000 words. The length alone doesn't demand two books; in fact, it's not at all atypical for one. (Figures from AR website.)

Also, read some midgrade adventure books. Lots of them. After all, The Mysterious Benedict Society comes in at 118,000 words.

Word counts for children's novels aren't that strict-- you just have to make sure that every word is a NECESSARY word.

Thanks, editorial. Glad to have you back!

In case it can help, I just want to add that there are quite a lot of 41,000 MG books out there these days. Especially fantasy.

Great post! I am dealing with a similar structure for a MG trilogy I'm writing. I am aware of other YA and MG series that end Book 1 and on with a "to be continued" or a a cliffhanger. The Hunger Games and His Dark Materials are what immediately come to mind from ones I've read. Can anyone suggest others here?

Surely 41,500 words is not too long for a middle grade novel? My first MG had 86,000 or so. Harry Potter and the Whatever had more than that.

That's not to say that a MG novel can't be much shorter. I'm just sayin'.

Applying advice . . . hum, I try but maybe it's something we all struggle with. From the time we're little, parents tell us what we SHOULD do. Unfortunately, our inclination is to push back against sage words of wisdom :(

I'm just glad you're back.

Er, is 41,500 really too long for MG?

Thanks to everyone who pointed out that there are plenty of middle grade novels that are longer than 41,500 words. This is very true, and I would have noted it myself if I hadn't been blogging too fast and failed to note the number. There should be a blogging speed limit.

"The Hunger Games and His Dark Materials are what immediately come to mind from ones I've read. Can anyone suggest others here?"

The Monster Blood Tattoo series by D. M. Cornish

Hunger games didn't really end on a cliff-hanger. There were hints of danger to come, but the book could have stood alone.

Basically, you want the book to have a satisfactory ending, but one that doesn't tie EVERY LAST THING UP. That way, when there's a sequel, it's met with a joyous shout of "I always WONDERED what happened next!"

(Jessica Day George does a good job with this, as does Ally Carter. And their books are appropriate for Middle graders. So you may find them worth a read.....)

A book that I loved but that did not end satisfactorily is Maryrose Woods' The Incorrigible Children of Ashton Place. It's only a single act of novel, not a full novel. I can see why this was done for commercial reasons, but as a reader who loved the book, I was frustrated.

And of course I will read the sequel

Thanks for your comments Deirdre and Anonymous - actually I should have been more clear there about The Hunger Games - I was just referring to the full trilogy but it's Catching Fire that ends on a cliffhanger. At the end of the Golden Compass one book ends and another begins. Can't remember how The Subtle Knife ends though but it's definitely only a continuation on to The Amber Spyglass. Thanks again!

I'm glad others have pointed out the MG word count issue; I've just hit 65,000 on my WiP and I'm not quite finished.

(And I'm glad you're back too!)

Candice-- I think the key there is that "Catching Fire" was the SECOND book in a Trilogy--

It's usually acceptable to end book 2 or a 3 book series on a cliffhanger, because you know you'll get one more to wrap it up.

If book one ends on a cliffhanger and there IS no sequel, you readers will hate you and swear you off forever!

Think of it like the original Star Wars Trilogy:
1. Star Wars (complete)
2. Empire (Major Cliff Hanger)
3. Jedi (Complete.)

Even the initial Harry Potter was a complete story in and of itself-- no cliffhanger.

LOTR breaks the rules, but that's because it's really one HUMUNGOUS book broken into publishable chunks.

Alternatively, George R.R. Martin has alienated many of his once-fans by ending books on cliff hangers and then never writing the next book.......

So my vote is for a resounding NO to cliff hangers. Unless it's the second book in the trilogy and you already have a publication date set for book 3!

(As is the case with Catching Fire. As I was screaming "NO! I HATE YOU! DON'T DO THIS TO ME!!!!!" I could also mark the release date for Mockingjay on my calendar.......

At first the news felt good, then I realized it means very little to me or my book. My major buyers are in the educational and library community andwould not be reported to Bookscan.

Oh, yay! You're back! And back with a vengeance! I'd almost given up hope....

So why won't our publishers give us more accurate information? In real time instead of six to ten months later?

Gah.

Reading that is like reading those absurd "warning" labels on products (like "remove cover before using razor" or "do not spray poison toward face")

They sound so obvious that you can't see anyone actually doing them, but at the same time, you know that someone, somewhere DID, or else there wouldn't be a warning.

With all the time and effort that goes into catching an agent's interest, you'd think that (except in the case of a total scammer who does nothing) a writer would be more tactful once they have it.

Great post, whipsmart and funny.

Some great reminders of how NOT to make my agent regret the day she signed me! Glad your back, Jack...er, whoever you are!

So glad you're back :)

AAAHAHAHAHAHA. So true. Welcome back!

My agent and I had a marvellous breakup, not that I wanted it to happen at all. She even invited me to query her again in future if I didn't find new representation.

So thank you to all publishing professionals who blog with an eye toward helping us writers understand their side of the equation. When things went belly-up with my agent, I knew how to behave and as a result, there's a door still open to me that might have been shut.

"Let her know how dysfunctional your family relationships are, and then tell her she's like a sister to you." Ha ha ha ha ha!

So glad you're back.

Welcome back, EdAnon!

And thanks for this most excellent post. It helps that you picked one of my favorite songs.

That totally stinks, but I get it. I guess authors need to have this provision in future contracts.

So happy to see you back, Editorial Anonymous. The internet has been void without you!

How about pirate zombies? I could write it. Death is so . . . so morbid. I prefer life with gnomes, faeries and dragons--though they don't seem to be very hip now. Bummer. Will think about zombie pirates . . .

Meg Cabot has a Persephone series launching this year:

http://www.megcabot.com/abandon/index.php

With Eva Ibbotson's death, I just went back and read some of her books that I'd missed and they all talk about Persephone! Well - the ones I've gotten to so far - A Countess Below Stairs, A Company of Swans, and The Dragonfly Pool. I was thinking about that right as I clicked onto your blog so I have to share since you mentioned it.

It is like automatons writing into this big dust bowl and that dust bowl keeps spinning and spinning collecting sameness, and moving forward collecting in and unto itself...

but once and a while it picks up a speck of something sharp and uncomfortable... yet perhaps promising and hopeful, and that doesn't belong there at all... until it makes that dust bowl into a star.

Welcome back. :)

Pirate Zombies! It's been done, though - "On Stranger Tides" by Tim Powers (a cracker.)

Hahaha! No, I would never have predicted that one, either.

I wonder how much of this writerly trending stems from the increase in writers who use social media to keep in touch and network. If we all talk to each other, we all end up talking about the same things, and then we all end up thinking about the same things, so it would follow that we could all end up writing about the same things, no?

Straight and true!

Well, you can always write your copyeditor as Hemingway did to one of his critics, 'I don't really think of you as a critic--no disparagement.'

twitter has kindly pointed out a misplaced apostrophe. even editors sometimes need editors!
thanks, guys.

A now-published friend came unglued over her copyedited manuscript. Her editor just told her to stet anything she disagreed with, but didn't tell her why all those marks were there.

Her copyedits make sense now. Thanks!

I have now gone through copyediting on four manuscripts and never knew this. I mean, I knew I could stet things that the copyeditor had misunderstood, and I knew it was a good idea to rework passages s/he found unclear, but I thought I was supposed to give in if s/he wanted to change my punctuation or grammar, even if the changes looked all wrong to me, or spoiled the tone and rhythm of the sentence. I feel so liberated now!

It's incredible how much about publishing that editors and other publishing staff often take for granted, that the average author just doesn't know -- and even worse, often doesn't realize that she doesn't know. There are a lot of stressed and confused new authors out there who could use a handy guide to What Publishers and Editors Really Mean When They Ask You To Do That Thing...

Wow, this is an excellent explanation. Coulda used this a couple of months ago!

2011 is going to be a good year. EA is back and on track!

This advice can also be applied toward crit partners, too. Thank for the post. I'm gonna put a link to it from my blog. :-)

I have a dilemma from the opposite side of this equation. I am not a professional anything to do with writing, but an acquaintance recently emailed me the first chapter of a story, and I don't know exactly what to do with it. I am the sort of person who *notices* all those things a copyeditor is supposed to, but I don't want him to feel insulted if I return his writing covered in red marks (particularly given that he is an English teacher). The chapter also contains a few flashbacks and such, and I feel the chapter would be considerably more readable and interesting if they were in a different order. This is compounded by the fact that I don't know how to say that his love of Hemingway seems to have lead him too far down the path of minute descriptiveness and multiple metaphors for the same thing.
I think with appropriate revisions it would be a really good first chapter, but I really need help figuring out how to express that positively enough that he'll think about the suggestions rather than getting offended.

Great post. It's amazing how changing perspective can totally change both the emotional reaction and the end result. And your explanation makes the prospect of copy edits less daunting. Thanks for this one.

And welcome back. Hope the Imperial Forces of Overwork are in retreat.

My husband is going through copyedits with his first book right now, and this is timely. Good to know that the CE is flagging possible issues, not flat-out ruling the literary world.

Thanks for a great post, which prompted a blog post of my own. You can get there by clicking on my name, I think.

Gooooooood point, and one I'd not considered before--that you don't have to make the changes. Thanks for illuminating this for us.

Yes, reminder to self...be grateful that there is someone out there to remove stray cat hairs!

As one who used to do the copyedits and then get yelled at by authors, I thank you. Even though I am out of that game now, it's important for authors to know we don't mark things because we hate them, and sometimes they are wrong. (And sometimes, so are we.)

@etlhoy - I tend to think of peer-critiquing someone's manuscript as having an "edit limit." That is, I'll fix X% of the errors - the most egregious ones - and let the smaller ones slide. For some manuscripts, this means I fiddle with commas and vocabulary choices, while for others it means the only red marks on the page end up being "I think you could consider making your hero kill fewer puppies in this scene - it might make him more likable." If the errors are so bad the whole section needs to be rewritten anyway, there's really no point in quibbling whether "nobody" or "no one" fits better with the flow of the sentence in paragraph 3 . . .

@etlhoy: I do a fair amount of editing for friends and for work, and I like to talk to people first if they haven't had me read their work before so they know what they're in for. I won't disregard anything that's actually an error, or that I'm fairly sure is an error, but do try to be very clear when I think something might be a stylistic choice, or when there's some question about it.

Also some of the larger comments (like the Hemingway thing) are sometimes better received in person rather than on the page, as that's the kind of thing that might call for a certain amount of discussion.

Thanks, EA. Wicked start for the new year.


@etlhoy - It helps me when I ask the other person what type of feedback they are looking for, i.e. line edits, overall comments, etc. Then I do a sandwich of positive, critical, positive. Lacking a specific request, sometimes the first go round is better with broad statements like you made in your comment. Something like this.

I think with appropriate revisions it will be a really good first chapter. I feel the chapter would be more interesting if the flashbacks were in a different order. State order you like. Your love of Hemingway leads to repetitive descriptions with multiple metaphors for the same thing. You might consider trimming some of those. End with second positive comment.

Great post, and so glad you're back EA!

I came to have great appreciation for the copy editor who worked on the MS for my book about train travel. She was right most of the time, too ... except when she changed 'brakeman' to 'brakeperson'!

I was a features writer for a newspaper for years. There was one copyeditor who, at times, drove me crazy with what seemed nitpicking. Later, when newspapers downsized and so many people were laid off, I found myself wishing for the days when a copyeditor had my back. The job they do is difficult and unsung.

I'd like to contribute to this discussion but am still a little giddy that this blog is back in action.

Welcome home!

I have a crush on my copy-editor. I think she is a demi-god or has superpowers. She kinda looks like a cute girly version of Clark Kent. I NEVER argue with her. Okay. I did once. We wrestled over God/god in a sentence. I think I won that fight but I think she was right - I'm too scared to open the book and see.

So happy you're back EA
BTW verification word is 'ingestion' heh heh

I *so* wish I knew this when the copy editor started killing jokes in my first book. Newbie that I was, I thought my editor had read and agreed with the proposed changes, so I was hesitant to fight them. Then she started messing with the dialogue and showed that she didn't fully grasp the concept of transitive and intransitive verbs, and that's when I started standing my ground -- too late, alas, for the already murdered jokes whose lives are frozen forever in manuscript form, never to be wrapped in the eternal warmth of book covers. O, woe!

And welcome back, EA! I kept checking back, hoping you might one day return, and my faith has been rewarded. I hope the new year provides some unexpected joy in your work.

Oh, yay! EA is back! Happy New Year!

My covers have been whitewashed twice since your last post!

Welcome back & Happy New Year, EA!

Nice writing style. Funny and witty about a sad subject. Happy New Year.

Draven Ames

Welcome back, welcome back! Even though I am only an illustrator (and perhaps a former one at that, as I have doubts about illustrating children's books anymore), I have missed your brilliant commentary. An aspiring author recently sent me a "story" that gave me enormous sympathy for the interns and editorial assistants who daily plow through such laughable dreck.

Welcome back!

YAY!!! Welcome back!

Welcome back! We've missed you and were wondering what happened.

Yes, it is a dark time.

WooHoo!!!! Good to see you! I was just checking in to sigh at your absence, and was met with a whole page of new posts! Thank you! :)

You're alive and well!! Hooray, hooray, hooray! This was always one of my favorite blogs. :-)

*ahem*

I mean, welcome back.

*happy dance*

Yeah! Welcome back. Missed your posts.

Oh thank goodness! Glad to have you back. Now I can stop speculating. (Well, no, I can't, not really, but at least I'll be distracted by shiny new blog posts...)
-Laura L. Sullivan

Welcome back!

Great news!

Looking forward to a new year with new posts.

YAY!

Yes! Welcome back!

Woot! So glad you're back!

Thank you for this!

I'll be back in January.

Persistence in the face of ridiculous odds is clearly one of the shared characteristics of this gang. Months of silence--and still at least 8 of us checked this blog today! May all of our other unlikely ventures pan out so well in the coming year!

Welcome back, and have a fun New Years!

I couldn't bring myself to delete you from my favorites...so glad that you're coming back! Even my non-writing DH was a faithful reader--and yes, he's delighted too.

Welcome back, EA.

Welcome back to the blogging world! I always enjoy your posts and am looking forward to more in the new year.

So glad you are back -- I've missed this blog!

Happy, happy!

Welcome back.

What a nice surprise. I have been checking in from time to time and worrying, with the rest of us, what had become of you. Don't need to make a New Year's Resolution to read your blog!!

Yay! Now it really will be a happy new year!

Good Lord, I thought we were done for. Welcome back.

Hurrah!!!

(We missed you.)

So glad to see you're back!

Whoohoo! What a happy surprise! Now it really is going to be a terrific 2011!

Hooray & thank you !!!

I kept checking back, just in case - yay!!

Glad you will be posting again, your insights are so highly appreciated!

Thanks again

Wunderbar! Merveilleux! Such good news. I'll shoot off some fireworks in honor of your reappearance!

I've finally stopped dancing around my computer long enough to say--WELCOME BACK!

So glad you're back!!!!

Fantastic! Happy
new year!

Fantastic! Happy new year!

I adore every book that Deborah Wiles has written. I'm pasting this post into my file of "Great Writing Posts." Not only is this interview full of wonderful writing advice, but it is a good reminder of the "digging in" that we must all do as writers.

Thanks for making my morning!

Sarah Frances Hardy

Great interview. Thanks!

This is on my birthday list for my son (and myself).

Great interview! I saw COUNTDOWN at a store and was very impressed. It's got award potential and ambitious and fun all over it! Good luck! (Of course I still have to get a copy and read it )

Linda Joy Singleton

Really nice interview. My 11 year old daughter totally adored Love, Ruby Lavender. Countdown sounds like another strong one. The interview not only made me want to read it, but I really want to see it. The books that pay attention to production design and do it well are such a joy.

And I loved her honesty about her struggles in getting books where they need to be. While her writing process isn’t quite the same as mine, there are definitely things that were familiar to me and my own personal trials. Another inspirational “don’t give up if you really want to get there” message from the pros of prose.

Wow. Deborah, thank you so much for sharing that! I enjoyed reading the whole thing, but I think I'm happiest to hear from another writer whose first draft process mirrors my own feelings--those of floundering through a black hole, even when I have an outline to work from!

I'm a historical fiction writer; this was right down my alley.

I love Deborah's work and this is a great peek at the hard work behind the scenes...a novel that is done well can *seem* effortless. Details of others' creative struggles are good for new and experienced writers. (And these interviews are a nice breath of fresh air among the [perhaps necessarily] snarkier items.)

Thanks for this! I can't wait to read it and see the innovative form you've given it. YAY Deb!

Thanks so much for the process discussion and your thoughtful honesty. I fight to NOT revise the first draft. I can't wait to read COUNTDOWN and see the documentation sewn in...

Great post. I'll definitely keep a look out for Countdown and pick it up!

Yay you for tellin' it like it freakin' is!!

God, this upsets me. Not in the least because the original cover was fantastic, and these are super boring and bland and stock photoish and just terrible.

Not to mention racist.

I do not look back fondly on my teen years. Instead I spent most of my teen years wishing I could be anyone or anywhere else. (said by average height, average weight, fish-belly white -with freckles- person)

The thing is... I don't think I was the only one. I read every book I could find with exotic people or places on the cover. Sticking white people on every book almost makes me thing travel books don't sell or something.

You know...I'm usually the first one saying we need to stop catering to the perceived small-mindedness of buyers or chains.

But here's the rub on this instance: I can't stop seeing this as a publisher trying to give a book a second chance, with a cover that harkens to a popular series, in hopes of luring readers. And something about that really makes me want to applaud, not bash.

Seems worthy of respect that they are committed to trying to lure more readers with new covers, covers I'll add that may draw a specific readership by looking similar to a popular series.

I love the original cover - but I also thought it made Silver Pheonix look like a younger book, and I think at least some part of low sales might be the perceived tween-ness of the cover, not the perceived race of the cover. But good luck convincing anyone else of that.

So, when I look at the new covers -I don't see a whitewash. I see covers mirroring Kelley Armstrong's popular books - most especially Reckoning and Awakening, but also No Humans Involved. I was struck right away by the similarities.

So...if I can applaud Greenwillow for the original cover, and assuming the other jacket text and images give the flavor of the book, why shouldn't I also applaud them for repackaging the books in hopes of reaching a wider audience.

Because we have that original cover, so it's hard for me to swallow a "whitewashing" if that was their original vision and cover. Instead, I see a repackaging targeting a specific audience.

And I have to wonder how many publishers wouldn't even bother to repackage.

if they were going to do a re-hash for the sake of sales... wouldn't it have been just as easy to use a model that actually fit? i mean, i understand that they were changing the cover to fit with what most kids are likely to pick up, but using an asian model would have made a world of difference for those to whom it matters, and no difference for anyone else.

i am also not a fan of this new trend of cover styles. when i was younger, book covers seemed to vary so much more... :/

Am I the only one who thinks the second cover has a better design? They're both pretty Photoshopped. The second one seems more likely to stand out on a bookshelf, though.

That doesn't excuse the whitewashing, of course. It's pretty blatant. Cutting her off just below the eyes while simultaneously removing all cultural clues in the clothing? Come on.

I'm sure they could have come up with a better cover than either of these. And without raising the justified ire of the blogosphere.

@ first Anonymous:

I agree with you that Greenwillow was trying to repackage Cindy's book to give it another chance to reach a wider audience. I think we all agree that Greenwillow was trying to go with what they think is the most marketable solution at this point.

But what that says about the industry as a whole is that the industry is geared towards a racist system of marketing books. Editorial Anon is totally, 100% right. Elizabeth Bluemle was totally, 100% right when she stated the same thing on the PW blog a few weeks back.

It's not that Greenwillow's heart isn't in the right place. It's that we, as an active blogosphere community, are fed up with having to settle for an industry so fully, pervasively steeped in racist marketing practices that Greenwillow's only option is to default back to "generic faceless cover" instead of sticking by its original, trailblazing, and inspiring marketing scheme for this book.

@ second anon - actually, I don't think we can assume that the controversies helped. Jaclyn Dolamore commented on my LJ post (a mirror to the one linked by EA) that she has yet to see the new cover of Magic Under Glass appear in any chain bookstore.

The frustration is heavy on all sides. My personal feeling is that if the industry standard was more representative, books like MUG and SP would have a better shot at having their more diverse covers accepted and snapped up by the reading public.

@Anonymous who posted at 5:01 PM

The fact of the matter is that the features of the girls in the two new covers are Caucasian, while the original is Asian. If the new covers had used a similar Kelley Armstrong type cover with an Asian girl, I don't think this post would have been made and I think your point would have been valid--publishers trying to get a book a wider audience with a reprinting.

But that wasn't what happened. The use of a Caucasian model representing an Asian protagonist is very problematic, full stop.

Although there's certainly whitewashing involved, the new covers strike me mostly as trying to cash into the paranormal romance boom. Seriously, the other day I checked the YA section at the bookstore, and it was just shelves and shelves of black and red and soft-edged subdued colors. Like these. Notice that they added the quote "lush, exotic, and romantic..." to both of the newer editions; that goes along with the trendy redesign.

Admittedly, I winced a bit at the first cover--it seems a bit kitschy (and I also hate the use of that word in the quote on the cover, yikes). Not to defend the publisher's choice to remove any trace of the ethnicity, though. Whitewashing is a real problem.

But--and sorry but this peeved me--commentors, saying (white) kids will like the books because they are all "into" Asian culture right now, or because you are "unmarked" as a white person (unlike exotic brown and yellow people), is problematic too. I get the good intentions, it's just that on the flipside of whitewashing is exoticization and cultural appropriation.

Well, the original cover is corny, and the second one just reeks of the whole "vampire" style of covers I've been seeing.

I think this is a little different than some of the other examples that have been cited, because:

This book DID have a cover with a distinctly Asian heroine on it.

It now has a sales track record, which certainly was considered in the decision to repackage.

If the publisher repackages to give this book a second chance, and if the new cover sells better, whose fault is that? If racism, whose racism is it?

And if the new cover doesn't sell better, what can we conclude from that, if anything?

And to what extent do the other elements of the cover design come into play--the darker, older, edgier look, changing from pink to black, and from a younger-looking girl to an older-looking one?

I have no answers. Just questions.

Knowing that a group of educated individuals actually sat about and discussed changing the paperback cover to a more Caucasian cover sickens me.

Regardless if Silver Phoenix sold well or not, they assume by whitewashing the paperback cover that it will finally sell. Disgusting.

There are many whitewashed covers for books that don't sell well. What's the excuse for that?

All I can do is shake my head and ask, "Why?"

I whole heartedly agree with you, it's ridiculous. And I don't buy "repackaging" to give the series continuity. That could have been done with the original cover. And I don't believe hiding the true nature of the book behind a "mass appeal" cover is respectful at all.

Teen-agers aren't racists--leastwise, not the ones I know. That bright pink costume, though? No sale. Nothing pink in this house--okay, the second-grader loves pink. The other two girls? The teen-agers? NO PINK. And yes, they are totally into Asian, specially Japanese culture. I detest ALL the covers that feature headless (or eye-less) women--or for that matter the he's-nothing-but-a-six-pack male torso covers.

I'd say that the anonymous poster just above me has the probably correct take on this. Righteous outrage is fun, but not always the correct answer. It's a business.

No, teenagers aren't racists. Every survey shows that teens and young adults on the whole are far more open-minded than their elders.

Nobody really knows for sure why a book doesn't sell to expectations, but the lousy economy strikes me as reason #1. Thus, there's no guarantee the whitewashed cover will sell better than the old one and may even sell worse.

I'd like to agree with anonymous here. Whitewashing infuriates me as much as it would anyone else aware of it, but I have to give Greenwillow some credit. They supported the book with gusto, gave it an awesome hardcover, and wanted the sequel. And now they are trying another way to get the book out. Granted, I'd like it to have a character who actually looks like Ai Ling on the cover, and the new covers don't look anything at all like what the stories are about, but I think they are going for an older teen audience and trying to grasp the coattails of the urban fantasy trend. And it could work, maybe. All of those teens who aren't aware of the anger online just might browse by and pick it up.

I think the old cover was beautiful and intriguing. Truthfully, I'd be much more likely to pick up the old cover than the new one.

This is just pathetic.

Even leaving aside the obvious racism in this cover change, those new covers look like almost everything else in the YA section right now. I'm half way through this book, and one of the reasons it drew me was an original and striking cover.

I imagine Cindy has a few things to say about this.

I do like the design of the new covers better -- the partially hidden face adds a sense of mystery, etc. However, why in the hell did they have to make the face white?? It's absolutely ridiculous.

Is it Bloomsbury again?

No, looks like it's HarperCollins.

Thank you. This needs to be said.

And said.

And said.

But dollars also need to come into play. I have NO interest in punishing the author. However, will this stop as long as these covers still move books (or get chains to stock them)? What, as writers are we to do here?

As a fishbelly white person, I spend my days walking in a very diverse town. It confounds me that other faces (or beautiful garb) wouldn't sell books.

Yes, Cindy did have a few things to say on her blog. I think her preemptive response to what she knew was coming shows a lot of class.

http://cindypon.com/2010/fury-of-the-phoenix-cover-revealed/

*facepalm*

and you know what? Irony's having a field day with this. Check out the Bookdepository page for Silver Phoenix, and look at the recommended books - there's Justine Larbalestier's white "Liar" cover.

http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9780061730214/Silver-Phoenix

So maybe everyone who does want to express their outrage should run out and buy the original hardcover.

The reality is, where was everyone to support the first courageous cover?

Maybe we need to start actively seeking out and buying the books with the covers we respect.

How many copies did each of the outraged folks buy? If the answer was zero... well?

If we as consumers don't buy books with representative covers, then we are allowing our silence (ie, non-sales) to be misinterpreted.

So, everyone who is outraged, why not go buy the hardcover? Or go buy another book with a person of color on the jacket. That's how we can fight the fallacy of the "ignorant masses." And until we prove it with dollars, it won't be believed. And, outside of the kids, the people who get hurt the most are the authors. So, support an author - buy books with jackets that show people of color on the cover (in this case, maybe one of those lovely hardcovered Silver Phoenixes).

I agree. And Cindy's post concerning this is classy and dignified. When she posted the cover on FaceBook, I believe I liked it or congratulated her on it because her attitude was so upbeat, but I was really alarmed and disappointed. I loved the first cover, but if they had to rework it they took it down the wrong path. It's insulting to it's target audience as well. I hope they reconsider and re-Asian the cover, it's the right thing to do-the story demands it and the readers do too.

As I said on my blog a few days ago... I think the Fury cover is lovely. Or rather, would make a lovely cover for a novel about the girl it pictures. 'Cause that girl clearly isn't Ai Ling, and that story clearly isn't about Xia.

There's one person who has 90% of the power in this area: B&N's YA buyer. Of course we don't even know what he or she is being shown by publishers.

The dirty little secret of publishing is that they have almost no data on their readers. They aren't in the business of selling books to readers, they sell books to bookstore. So I think this is probably a half dozen behind-the-times editors acting on perceptions that might be outdated

When we make the jump to e-books we'll start getting much better market data.

I don't like the new covers very much. But I dislike the original cover enough that it might've made me not pick up the book. The colors are garish, the pose is awkward, and it looks a little embarassing to be carrying around as an older teen or adult. It looks like a fantasy book for little kids. While the new covers are not innovative in the least, they're acceptable (except for the whole not being Asian thing. I agree with you all there). I truly understand why the publishers would want to repackage this book, but it would've been nice to have a Chinese model, even if her face does get cut off.

However, I think there's a large market that goes for book covers that look similar to others they like, because they don't want to risk spending their money on something they'll dislike. It does remind me of Kelly Armstrong's books, among others.

Oh for fuck sake, EA.

Newsflash -- most publishers just dump a book/author when the sales are low. At least they are trying to stick by the books and author and issue another type of cover to insight sales and attention. The fact that her pub is trying something new means they believe in the books. That's a GOOD thing!

I'd love to ask if you'd rather one of your author's have a painfully accurate cover or SALES, because without sales they won't be an author for very long.

Well if the first cover didn't sell for shit...

I agree with the commenters who said the original cover was unappealing -- yes, it's culturally on-target, but kinda cheesy. And I agree that the repackaging is standard fare. (I don't think it's obvious that the character is white or non-white, btw.) The fact is, there's huge pressure from in-house sales and accounts to keep doing the same thing over and over. It's not just culture that gets obliterated, it's innovation and creativity. I commend those amazing folks at Greenwillow for their belief in Cindy Pon, and their willingness to spend time, money, and political capital in repromoting this series.

As someone who does the visual merchandising for a book store, I call my teen table the twilight zone because it is a black hole of dark and depressing covers. The best cover I’ve seen in recent times is Shiver with its icy blue and cream colors. I would chose to face out the original cover of Silver Phoenix over the newer additions, because it is bright and pink.
Besides the whitewashing, another disturbing trend is how many dead-looking models appear on book covers.

Here's what I don't get. This book sounds like it would be the perfect candidate for some of the amazing manga-style fantasy art coming out of China right now that's so popular on places like Deviant Art. I haven't read the book, but the synopsis sounds good. However, I wouldn't pick it up based on any of these covers except maybe the first (mostly because at least that one has some color and isn't trying its hardest to be emo-goth.) But man, give me something like this: http://hgjart.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d2e63al or http://hgjart.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d2e60sg and I would be ALL OVER that book.

What's also annoying is the repackaged ones are photos. The first one is an illustration. And there's damn few covers given to illustrators these days.

I love the original cover - but I also thought it made Silver Pheonix look like a younger book..."

Exactly. The book was first marketed as a mid-grade; the series is now repositioned as a YA. All you need to do is peruse the old Greenwillow catalog, and it's pretty obvious.

And as far as YA goes, it's pretty run-of-the-mill. Is that really not an Asian mouth? How in the world could you even begin to tell? Perhaps it's Hispanic? Serbo-croatian? Any and all of these? Quite possibly.

Editorial Anonymous, if you truly want to be La Liberte leading her people, why don't we have a discussion of the vast majority of YA covers feature portions a chopped-up female?

The persistence of featuring a portion of the female body (here, it would be the tender neck and mouth; another instance is GREAT AND TERRIBLE BEAUTY where the curve of the female back was disembodied from its head; the entire Sarah Dessen bibliography with an emphasis on legs) by---in essence---chopping up/off the (female) head.

This, I find a completely unacceptable objectification of women. In the extreme. It makes every girl any girl. Mere interchangeable body parts. Breasts, backs, legs and mouths.

Disembodied sex parts chosen by adults and marketed to teens. Oh joy.

Yup. Every time I pass the YA section in the book store and see shelves and shelves on photo-shopped, random (oh. But not random. They aren't really random, are they? They are breasts and backs and legs and mouths. Sexual, oui?)female body parts lined up on cover display like that, I can only think of an abattoir...


Delacroix

While I was just as shocked and saddened by the blatant "whitewashing" done on the book jackets previously featured, I think the situation here is far, far different. Here we have a publisher who tried to reflect the cultural aspect of the book on the hardcover -- and then, when that clearly didn't work, took the huge amount of time, effort, money, and political capital to repackage the books in a more commercial way, emphasizing the paranormal/ fantasy/teen girl angle. Maybe the first jacket was too literal and the second approach too generic. I think the real trouble comes in when the race of the character is obviously completely changed, or the jacket is deliberately misleading. The publisher was not doing this here.

In any case the name-calling seemed totally out of line. I'm disappointed.

I will admit right here that I didn't read the whole comment thread, but I will go back and do so when I get a chance.

I showed my 12 year old daughter the trailor on Cindy's site last fall and she watched it more than once... so I got ahold of Cindy and she arranged for me to buy an autographed copy for my daughter for Christmas... It's the only gift my daughter hugged and jumped up and down over... and it's a book!!!! Yay, team! She really didn't give a rat's behind about the cover, guys, sorry... she wanted to read it because she already had an idea of what it was about.... she'd already read some of the blurbs from the amazing author...

Someone on this thread suggested going out and buying books when we applaud the covers... did you seriously want us to BUY A BOOK FOR THE COVER????

I wish I could believe this wasn't whitewashing... I have to believe the publishers intentions were good, to give Cindy the best chance at reaching more readers (and their own bottom line, of course)... but I think the whole idea is misguided...

Even if you convinced "racist" teens to read a book of color by tricking them into thinking it's not... umn... wouldn't they get a few pages or chapters in and feel tricked? They're young, not stupid. And news flash... most of them don't care about race, not unless someone taught them to care about it...

And I'll buy the second book regardless of what ends up being the cover... because I know the story will be stellar. I hope you all will think about doing that, too.

I think this is a very interesting discussion and a very difficult problem. Having just had two books remaindered, I don't even know if I'd rather they just got objectionable covers... actually probably not.

But I will add this observation re: this:
"If racism, whose racism is it?"

Are you kidding? This sounds exactly, to me, like a pre-Civil Rights restaurant owner in the South saying, "But we can't let THEM in our restaurants, because our customers won't like it! It's not us, it's the customers!"

That didn't fly, and neither does "it's the buyers' fault." Such systemic problems need to be attacked on all possible fronts or they can't be attacked at all.

Interesting that some don't like the first cover. I thought it was gorgeous, and I'd probably pick it up and read a few pages if I saw it on a shelf. The other two just looked like all the rest of the stuff that's out there, which is to say, I wouldn't give them a second glance.

Cindy is actually a friend of mine and the sweetest person on the planet. I asked her and she said that while she knows about whitewashing, She's happy that the book came out at all AND that the sequel is coming out next year.

I guess if it doesn't bother her, it don't bother me.... to much >.>

The first one looks like a trashy romance. It depicts the woman both in a very sexualized way, and not as Chinese but as *stereotypically* Chinese. I had to read the commentary to know which image you were going to call "beautiful" and which you were going to call "racist", and the outraged reaction would have made an equal amount of sense to me if the labels were reversed.

Yes, yes, yes. I only hope it results in many more sales and a lot more publicity about this issue.

Random reactions:

I'm amazed and delighted that the publisher would try again rather than just let the book (and the author's career?) be remaindered and that's that. This, I applaud.

The original cover is younger than the second two. There's more than just race going on here. And I see genre differences, too. To me, the first cover says multicultural tween fantasy. The remake says YA paranormal romance.

Apparently a cover needs to sell the book more than it needs to convey its content. I'd be interested to hear reader reactions to how well covers match stories. Do readers feel baited and switched? Or don't they care?

I'm tired of the sameness of book covers.

If I picked up the books with the new covers and found out the MC was Asian, I'd go WTF?

I agree that if the model on the new covers was Asian, there'd be no issue. Yet the children's librarian at my PL says she seldom spends limited funds on multicultural books b/c they just sit on the shelves. It's hard to escape the fact that the pub is doing what it has to do to give these books a second chance.

Which brings me right back to -- I'm amazed and heartened that they'd do so.

The fact that the new cover girl's race isn't obvious IS whitewashing. Given the content of the book, the girl on the cover should look OBVIOUSLY Chinese.

With a Chinese model, the new cover would have been so much better than the old one. I share the adult view that all YA covers look alike, and that recent conventions of the form (darkness, dismembered girls, etc.) are creepy. But I think my 13yo son is typical of young teens in being drawn to books that look like those he already likes. The new cover would correctly signal to him that this book is right up his alley.

With the old cover, he wouldn't read it even if someone gave him a copy. He'd love a fierce, female, Chinese protagonist. But that's not what he'd see. He'd see PINK. And NOT IN THE STYLE OF REALLY COOL BOOKS.

Most YA book covers all look alike. That is not art. That is consumerism. But, when artistic decisions are left to bookstore chain buyers and marketing and not artists and editors, with publishers bowing to these criteria, what can else we expect? The head chopping and body parts of females is most disturbing along with the whitewashing. Females as hunks of meat hanging in a window. Here's a better idea. Pay the taxes on the warehousing of books. Stop paying a double salary to celebrity books (they already have a job) and pay the taxes on the warehouses and keep books in print from REAL authors. My lord, this business is run ass backwards.

My question is this--how can you all be so sure that the model on the new covers is Caucasian? Because she has full lips?

I agree that it's upsetting that more of the Asian influence from the first cover didn't transfer to the new version, but I sincerely doubt racism was at play here. As many other people have said, the covers were modeled after more successful series (they remind me in particular of Kelley Armstrong's books).

Thanks so much for this article!
I agree with you 100 percent.
I took the time to read through this entire thread, and note that the new covers don't include any images of the Chinese culture. It's as if it truly has been "whitewashed"

Whether its non minority models on the cover of books with poc as the main protag, or putting birds on the cover of books about segregation (the UK cover of THE HELP is different than the American cover. The UK cover has two African American maids attending to a child instead of the Disney-esque three little bird cover US readers have). These tactics send the wrong impression.

Part of the problem with Silver Phoenix may have been the age group it was marketed to first (as stated, it was marketed to the middle grade crowd, and now its YA)

Many thanks to the posters who gave info on the acquisition process by major book stores.

While I'm saddened that Greenwillow has stripped all traces of the protag's true racial identity (I gather that's exactly the point)off the cover, I now understand a bit better who decides what will or won't grace bookstore shelves.

Oh, Rachel, that art you linked to is gorgeous, poster-worthy. Just wonderful.

First cover: hideous kitsch. Other two: generic copycatting with pointless and offensive whitewashing.

All the visual elements of fantasy and Chinese art and this crap is what they came up with?

Publishers: "Work really hard to make your book distinctive so we can work really hard at making it look exactly like everything else..."

EA, I have a suggestion. We hear so much scuttlebutt about the five people (or whatever that small number is) of people in the U.S. -- chain buyers -- who arguably have the most influence on covers and what gets bookstore placement and what languishes as special-order-only. But I've never seen any of those people identified, or read an interview with one, or heard a justification of their immense powers. (What are their qualifications?) And they probably have data about these "it won't sell" issues, if anyone does. (Or not.)

How about getting one as a guest blogger? Or does ANYONE know of info about these folks online that we could link to?