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Yesterday, Ray Sonne at Loser City levied hefty accusations at Marvel staff. In an interview with CBR, Marvel Editor-in-Chief Axel Alonso angered fans when he crushed longstanding implications that the Greek mythological-inspired character Hercules is bi-sexual. From CBR: Also, a lot of fans have been curious if the character’s sexuality — it’s been strongly suggested Hercules is bisexual, and […]
10 Comments on Accusations of Bi-Erasure aimed at Axel Alonso and Marvel’s Hercules Set Off Internet Firestorm, last added: 8/4/2015
If you don’t think they’re doing what is implied why act like they did something wrong?
chris said, on 8/4/2015 10:19:00 AM
FWIW, Hercules has never been known in the Marvel universe as anything but straight. We are currently going through Secret Wars, which shows different riffs on different characters; certainly a riff on an alternate Hercules COULD be bisexual as the mythological one. The one of Marvel’s past hasn’t been, so let’s not act like they rewrote their own character.
Alexander Lu said, on 8/4/2015 10:20:00 AM
To clarify, Chris, my opinion is that Marvel didn’t set out to hurt anyone when they made the editorial change, but they should have been more aware of how fans would react to this change before they made it. Then, when they heard the fans lashing out, Alonso and comapny reacted by trivializing the fanbase’s concerns, escalating a misunderstanding into an argument. That latter bit, ultimately, is where Marvel err’d.
abc said, on 8/4/2015 12:21:00 PM
what editorial change? hercules in the 616 MU has always been straight and still is. man, marvel cannot win. they change the color or gender of a character, they get shit over it, they keep a character that’s always been straight, straight, and they get shit over that. does every character have to become someone else to what they were, and if not , there’s hell to pay? does every character have to stay the same and if not, there’s hell to pay? alonzo & co. were just as insensitive to fans that were pissed about a female thor as they are to fans that are pissed about not having a bi-hercules. but i guess depending on which side you’re on, you may or may not have a problem with who they’re being jerks to. by the way this “all-new , all-different” nonsense this just that, nonsense. except for spider-man and maybe a few other characters starting from scratch, every character is picking up right where they left off before secret wars and we’re catching up to them eight months later. just a lot of characters being shuffled around onto different teams, settings, etc. this is not a “new52″ type reboot. it’s just the illusion of being an “all-new, all-different” reboot.
Thom Boyer said, on 8/4/2015 3:43:00 PM
Speaking as someone who actually does have a horse in the race, abc, the difference comes down to which group is in a position of power. The mainline Thor whose adventures we will be following is a woman now? Great! Chalk one up for representing women readers searching for more heroes they can relate to. And hey, Odinson’s still out there, so fan’s of the *character* can still follow his brave deeds aplenty, and moreover, look kids! Reprints! Collections and catalogues full of thousands upon thousands of pages all sorts of manly Thor-ness across many a title over many a year!
Meanwhile, who do I, as a bi-male reader have in the Marvel U? Alright, Loki, could be inter — oh, wait. That pretty much just came up in interviews and didn’t really get explored in the title. Also, there’s that whole “trickster” stereotype that causes complications if he’s going to be the only rep for bi pride out there. Okay… Ah! How about that Herc guy? As the author stated, most of the Marvel U version of Hercules’ implied bisexuality was invented in years past on the readers’ part due to his connections to the Hercules of Greek mythology. Enter Pak & Van Lente, who bring this just a little bit into subtext in the book itself very slowly over the course of their run. Cool! Maybe this is something we can run with, right? Oh, and there was that cool alt-universe stuff going on between him and alt-universe Wolverine in that X-Men book that about twelve people read? Hey, in-story precedent! Cool!
But…wait…Mr. Alonso? What’s that? Not even a “Wait and see” or “This isn’t a road we’re going to explore at this time…? Just a…”No, you’re all wrong?” Well, that’s… That’s just… What’s the word for that? Oh yeah, it hurts. Bloody smack in the face the way he said it (and not the fun kind).
Before Secret Wars, I was picking up about a dozen Marvel books a month and a fair share of collected editions, anywhere from $100-$300 worth per. I dropped the monthlies during the big event, while I waited for some other favorite creator-centric runs to wrap up, but after this? Bye, Marvel. Already cancelled pulls of titles I would have been picking up; my money’s already where my mouth is. I’m sure you won’t miss it, but it’s all I can do. Sometimes I love you guys at the House of Ideas, but this is ugly disdain.
Thom Boyer said, on 8/4/2015 3:45:00 PM
Oh man, my grammar is atrocious when I’m angry. Spot an error? I probably already did and am secretly ashamed, weeping at the lack of an “edit” feature.
Snarky McSnarkerson said, on 8/4/2015 3:59:00 PM
Thom, seriously, if you’re willing to drop Marvel over this, they won’t miss your dollars. The character has always been depicted as heavily straight, so why should they change it to accommodate a tiny handful of readers? Guarantee you it would piss off a lot more readers than it would please if Marvel decided to go this route. Many would view it as a publicity stunt, since homosexual rights and transgender issues are the hot topic at the moment. Marvel is a business so they’d be more willing to lose their one to two percent of bisexual readers rather than the the 30 to 40 percent(estimate) of the fanbase that would probably not be down with this idea/storyline.
Ian Boothby said, on 8/4/2015 4:30:00 PM
“The character has always been depicted as heavily straight, so why should they change it to accommodate a tiny handful of readers?”
Because there aren’t enough gay and bi characters represented in comics and this one with his already existing historical background would be pretty much perfect.
“Guarantee you it would piss off a lot more readers than it would please if Marvel decided to go this route.”
I’m sure it would. Maybe that would be a good thing. If you really think 30-40% of the readers would have a problem with Hercules being bisexual you have a very low opinion of those people.
Brian Hibbs said, on 8/4/2015 5:17:00 PM
“Marvel is a business so they’d be more willing to lose their one to two percent of bisexual readers rather than the the 30 to 40 percent(estimate) of the fanbase that would probably not be down with this idea/storyline.”
Wait… Marvel’s “Hercules” has a “fanbase”? Because, like, as a retailer a see a character that was d-list at best, until Marvel (nearly) literally *forced* “Incredible Hulk” readers to buy his book with a character/title swap that kept the underlying series code in every retailer’s database. Which, as I recall, did nothing but shed readers month-by-month, and held on to the schedule largely because of crossover tie-ins and the spikes they brought. So, maybe profile raised to c-list?
You’d kind of HAVE to do something radical with the character (er, not that bi-sexuality itself is radical, but having sexuality be anything but a prop for a one-dimensional character like Herc, now that would be a radical thing in Marvel comics) to get retailers to order enough copies to be able to launch an ongoing… and succeed. My native order for a non-superstar team on a Herc book would be like maybe 15-20 copies, max? Less than half of what I’d order for the B-List characters, and twice that for the A-List. That way leads to cancellation. If it were the “All-New, All-Bi Herc #1″, dunno, I am in San Francisco so maybe that would move it from C-level to B-level orders for curiosity seekers, but even if I was some place more conservative I’d probably split the difference because there’s nothing inherently commercial about the Marvel version of the character.
(which is why you haven’t had a Herc comic any time lately)
So, yeah, as a retailer, I think the market would very much reject your math — a “controversial” Herc comic would sell better than a “boycotted by partisans” one.
-B
MBunge said, on 8/4/2015 7:33:00 PM
I find the invocation of “power” ironic, since it’s pretty clear who has the power in these situations. Hint – who found a more receptive audience online, the people who complained about making Rawhide Kid gay or the ones complaining about restoring Hercules’ heterosexuality.
And just to be clear, I’m talking about the initial, prepublication reaction. Once they actually saw the all-new, all-gay Rawhide Kid, I would guess the reaction was largely unanimous across all sorts of lines.
Dan Abnett and Luke Ross are bringing Hercules back to the Marvel Universe with a new title named after the titular hero. The series will be available for purchase in local comic book shops in November and will feature the Olympian attempting to atone for some of his previous mistakes. Hercules, a key ’70s Marvel […]
1 Comments on Abnett and Ross give Marvel’s Hercules “consideration” and a New Costume, last added: 7/30/2015
This summer saw the release of Hercules (Radical Studios, dir. Brett Ratner). Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson took his place in the long line of strongmen to portray Greece’s most enduring icon. It was a lot of fun, and you should go see it. But, as one might expect from a Hollywood piece, the film takes a revisionist approach to the world of Greek myth, especially to its titular hero. A man of enormous sexual appetite, sacker of cities, and murderer of his own family, Hercules is glossed over here as a seeker of justice, characterized by his humanity and humility. And it is once again Hercules, not Heracles: the Romanized version loses the irony of the Greek, “Glory of Hera.”
This is neither the Hercules of ancient myth, nor is it the Hercules of Steve Moore’s graphic novel, Hercules: The Thracian Wars (Radical Comics, 2008), on which the film is loosely based. It is perhaps not surprising then that Moore fought to have his name removed from the project, at least according to long-time friend Alan Moore. Steve Moore died earlier this year and buried deep in the closing credits of the film is a dedication in his memory.
When he wrote his comic, Moore strove to fit his story into the world of Greek myth in a “realistic” way. Though the story (and that of its sequel, The Knives of Kush) is original, the characters and setting are consistent with the pseudo-historic Bronze Age of Greek legend. The film jettisons much of this careful integration for little narrative gain. I am never opposed to revisions to the myth (myth, after all, can be defined by its malleability), but why, for instance, set the opening of the film in Macedonia in 358 BCE instead of 1200? It adds nothing to the story, but confuses anyone with even a passing knowledge of Greek history — our heroes should be rubbing elbows with Philip II of Macedon, Alexander the Great’s father. The answer to this question, I suspect, is a sort of Wikipedial historicity: Hercules and his companions are hired by a fictional King Cotys, a name chosen by Moore as suitably Thracian — and there was a historical Cotys in 358.
A cover of Dell’s comic adaptation of the Hercules myth. Public domain via Wikimedia Commons.
The Thracian Wars is set well after Hercules has completed his twelve labors: in the loose chronology of Greek myth, we are somewhere between the Calydonian Boar Hunt and the battle of the Seven Against Thebes. Hercules arrives in Thrace as a mercenary, along with his companions Iolaus, Tydeus, Autolycus, Amphiarus, Atalanta, Meleager, and Meneus, the only character made up by Moore. (The Hollywood film production jettisons those characters who might have LGBT overtones: Meneus is Hercules’s male lover, and Meleager is constantly frustrated by and therefore exposes Atalanta’s lesbianism.) Though no story of Greek myth involves all these characters, they all belong to roughly the same generation — the generation before the Trojan War. These characters could have interacted in untold stories.
But they don’t interact well. As Moore notes in the afterword to the trade paperback, “Hercules was a murderer, a rapist, a womanizer, subject to catastrophic rages and plainly bisexual…I wouldn’t have wanted to spend much time in his company.” The rest of the band is not much better. Where the film presents a band of brothers, faithful to each other to the death, in the comic these characters loathe each other and are clearly bound not by love of each other but the need to earn a living. They are mercenaries, with little interest in the morality of their actions.
Legendary Greece, then, is without a moral center. Violence and bloodshed are never far away. Sexual activity is fueled only by deceit or lust. The Greek characters speak of their Thracian surroundings as barbaric, but we are never shown any better. The art of the comic articulates this grim reality. Eyes are frequently lost in shadow, for instance, dehumanizing the characters further. Throughout, artist Admira Wijaya deploys a somber color palette of greys, browns, and muted reds to convey a bleak world.
This, then, is the great disconnect of Greek myth with the modern world. In our times, our heroes of popular culture must be morally pure; only black and white values can be understood. So-called “anti-heroes” are occasionally tolerated in marginal media, but even here their transgressions are typically mitigated somehow (think of the recent television series Dexter, in which the serial killer is validated by his targeting of other serial killers — the real bad guys). The heroes of Greek legend — the word “hero” itself only denoted those who performed memorable or noteworthy deeds, without a moral element — often existed solely because they were transgressors. Tantalus, Oedipus, Orestes: their stories are of broken taboos, stories of cannibalism, incest, kin-slaying. Later authors may have complicated their stories, but violation is at the core of their being.
Sure, the common people of ancient Greece benefited from Hercules’s actions as a slayer of monsters, but none of his actions were motivated by altruism. Rather, it was shame at best that moved him: in most tellings, his famous twelve labors were penance for the death of his family at his own hands. Many of his other deeds were motivated by hunger, lust, or just boredom. In the film, Johnson’s Hercules finds a sort of absolution for his past crimes. In the comic, redemption is not an objective; in fact, Hercules doesn’t even seem to recognize the concept.
Hercules is a figure of strength and power, a conqueror of the unknown, a slayer of dragons (and giant boars and lions). The Hercules of Hollywood shows us strength. The Hercules of myth — and of Moore’s comic — shows us the consequences of that strength when it’s not carefully contained. There is a primal energy there, a reflection of that part of our souls that is fascinated with, even desires, transgression. As healthy, moral humans, most of us conquer that fascination. But myth is our reminder that it always, always bears watching. Hollywood isn’t going to help you do that.
Featured image: An engraving from The Labours of Hercules by Hans Sebald Beham, c. 1545. Public domain via Wikimedia Commons.
You may have noticed a few trailers for OBLIVION, a new Tom Cruise SF film that seems to fuse the themes of I am Legend, Mission Impossible, War of the Worlds and Minority Report into one handy epic. (It also destroys New York, just as all futuristic movies must.) The film comes out in April and in addition to Cruise it stars Morgan Freeman, Olga Kurylenko, Melissa Leo, Zoe Bell and Andrea Riseborough. The director is TRON: UPRISING's Joseph Kosinski, and he's also the source of this film's tenuous but fascinating "graphic novel" connection.
3 Comments on Why OBLIVION is the most miraculous “comic book movie” of all time, last added: 2/7/2013
Cant wait to read about Radical’s future success with TIME BOMB!
David Wohl said, on 1/23/2013 7:05:00 AM
Time Bomb deserves to be a film!!!
Radical Studios raises $3 million said, on 2/5/2013 7:22:00 PM
[...] telling you how Radical Studios has ridden the comics-to-movies rollercoaster to some success with a movie based on the not-really-a-GN Oblivion on its way to a multiplex near you. And now, Variety tells us, they’ve raised $3 million of a [...]
Hello all in the "Land o Blog." Again the everwondering, always searching Library Ninja Bill brings you news of good reads. The first book I present to you today is a real killer!!!!! I mean this quite literally as when dinosaur and humans come together, usually the results are far from great! So here goes:
Z. Raptor by Stephen Cole -Wow, this book is a real page turner that not only involves genetically engineered super intelligent dinosaurs, but spotlights my favorite dinosaurs Velociraptors. This is the second book in a series written by Mr. Cole on scientifically modified dinosaurs, the first being Z. Rex which I have not read yet (but you can bet as soon as I can I will be). This book revolves around 13 year-old Adam Adlar whose father has come up with some pretty advanced gaming technology, based on Adam's thought patterns, that allows a not so nice corporation named Geneflow to use in combination with their ability to bring dinosaurs back to life to make new super advanced and extremely intelligent dinosaurs. In an attempt to find out what Geneflow is up to Adam and his father are kidnapped by an FBI Special Agent named John Chen and set sail to a tiny island in which two conflicting species of evolved Velociraptors are at war.. These dinos are also keeping human hostages for unknown reasons that have somehow been transported to the island..Todd and his father are separated when the ship Todd is on with Chen is sunk near the island by mysterious sea monsters.Todd's father and the ship he is own escape and the survivors of the wrecked ship find themselves stranded on this strange island. The survivors of the wreck meet an unlikely ally in a Velocirapator that has been cast out of his tribe named Loner (It is Loner by the way that has alerted Agent Chen in the beginning of the book what is happening on this island by video transmission and yes the dinos can talk. I did say they had been advanced drastically and I meant it.). Todd and the survivors with the help of Loner must figure out the secrets of the island along with a way to survive the two warring tribes of Velociraptors and Geneflow whom is hidden on the island. This book is full of action and twist and turns that will make your head spin. Highly recommended for readers ages 10 and up!!!!!!
0 Comments on Raptors Vs. Hercules Vs. Hera as of 1/1/1900
Genevieve Santos of Le Petit Elefant kept busy by sewing more products as she waited for customers
Ben and Alma Santos, residents of San Jose, traveled to Hercules for the tree lighting and to visit their daughter, Genevieve Santos, of Le Petit Elefant.
daaaaaawww... my parents look so cute!
2 Comments on Photos of the Craft Bazaar in Hercules, last added: 12/5/2010
You know you're doing something right when customers return the day after for more. It's also amazing when you realize you have a following, & not in the google buzz or twitter sense, or amongst your friends because that only partially counts. I don't know... It's all very encouraging and reaffirming that I'm gold pursuing this art thing.
I think the most heartwarming sale of the day was to a woman who purchased a print of Literary Fort. She told me it reminded her of her kids when they were little because they loved to read all the time. She said she'd frame it over her sewing machine to inspire her & remind her of her kids :) . I packaged the print & as she walked away, I asked her how old her kids are now. "21 & 26... one's graduating from UCLA this year..." There was a tinge of sadness & nostalgia in her voice, and I felt so... I don't know... privileged? appreciative? that something I painted in a way penetrated a very intimate memory for her.
Overall, the day was slow, which only meant I worked while I worked :)
0 Comments on Hercules's Craft Bazaar Day 2 as of 1/1/1900
Wow. Just wow. A shockingly positive experience. I am SO pumped for tomorrow.
I was suffering from lack of enthusiasm in the days leading up to this fair. I felt calm, but a little too calm (yeah... a little too ralph). I was a little weary about the potential rain, setting up a tent for the first time, arranging the lights, a new space, etc. Even during the set up I felt moody. Then BAM! I started talking to the visitors & shoppers, the mayor of Hercules announced the arrival of Santa Claus (you could take pictures with him in the photobooth haha), my mom brought me a free cookie... all was well in the world. It never rained. When I didn't make a sale, I made a friend. I was interviewed by the city's newspaper. Even an old friend from USC visited! Hollerrrrrrr!
The only reason why I put eyes on some of my elephants is so kids can dig around and find the ones that do. It's amazing how much fun they have. One little girl immediately started searching, flipping the ears over and tossing aside the eyeless. When she found her first one, she jumped up and showed her mom. She was half giggling, half asking for it. She wouldn't let it go. Eeeeee! Her mom helped her put it in the paperbag & once it was inside, she hugged the bag and skipped away with it still pressed against her chest. That kind of stuff just makes me fuzzy & happy.
Drawing these sign up sheets are my favorite :)
3 Comments on Hercules's Craft Bazaar Day 1, last added: 12/4/2010
gahhh Nicole you're so sweet! I had a lot of fun chatting with you & I'm so glad we met! I hope we cross paths soon (next weekend in sf?!) & make sure to email me about your plush project! So many exclamation points!!!
When Heracles was born, he made enemies with Hera, one of the most powerful gods of Greek Mythology. When Heracles was a baby, Hera sent two serpents down upon him, but Heracles crushed both of them with his bare hands. As Heracles enters manhood, he accomplishes the impossible “Labours of Heracles”. Heracles eventually dies when the centaur, Nessus tricks his wife into poisoning him. During his moments of life, Heracles makes a funeral pyre for himself. As the flames engulfed this legendary hero, Zeus lifts his son up into the sky and Heracles takes his rightful place as a God of Olympus.
This warrior god of Norse Mythology was the son of the “mighty Odin”, king of gods. Thor is one of the most powerful gods of Asgard. Thor wields a short hammer called Mjolnir which has the ability to launch thunderbolts and it magically returns to the wielder whenever it is thrown. Thor travels around in a magical chariot that scorches the Earth as it soars through the sky. Thor is also known as a dangerous enemy toward the giants.
This hero of the Trojan Wars is one of the most well known figures of Greek Mythology. Achilles was the son of the nymph Thetis and Peleus. When Achilles was a child, Thetis dangled Achilles on a mystical fire and started to burn away her son’s mortal half, her practice was interrupted by Peleus who was appalled at the sight. Thetis successfully burned away most of Achille’s mortal half except one small weakness, her son’s heel. Achilles set out to the Trojan War and won many victories for the Greeks. Achilles challenged Hector, prince of Troy to a duel and defeated him. After this event, he dragged Hector’s around Troy refusing to bury the warrior. This action offended the Gods and it eventually lead to his downfall. Paris, Hector’s brother shot an arrow guided by the god Apollo into Achilles’s heal. Then the great warrior fell, never to rise again.
This legendary outlaw of English folklore known by people everywhere. Robin Hood is mainly known for his adventures with his outlaw group, the “Merry Men”. Robin Hood is known to have lived in the Sherwood Forest of Nottingham-shire. He is known mainly for his “stealing from the rich, and saving the poor.” Robin Hood is known as a skilled archer and in many tales, the enemy of the sheriff. Whether this figure is real or not, he has clearly earned a place in the top 5 mythical figures.
King Arthur, the legendary leader of the Britons is a classic symbol of chivalry and the Medieval Age. According to most Medieval histories and romances, he lead the defense of Britain from the Saxons during the 6th century. Many mystical figures surround the tales of King Arthur such as the wizard Merlin, the enchantress Moran Le Fay, and the mysterious Lady of the Lake. Arthur also wields the infamous Excalibur which makes the user win every duel and its scabbard enables the user to be invincible. At peak of his power, Arthur established the Round Table and the mystical kingdom of Camelot prospered. Arthur’s kingdom eventually fell after knights were corrupted and the king passed away.
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3 Comments on Hercules's Craft Bazaar Day 1, last added: 12/4/2010
If you don’t think they’re doing what is implied why act like they did something wrong?
FWIW, Hercules has never been known in the Marvel universe as anything but straight. We are currently going through Secret Wars, which shows different riffs on different characters; certainly a riff on an alternate Hercules COULD be bisexual as the mythological one. The one of Marvel’s past hasn’t been, so let’s not act like they rewrote their own character.
To clarify, Chris, my opinion is that Marvel didn’t set out to hurt anyone when they made the editorial change, but they should have been more aware of how fans would react to this change before they made it. Then, when they heard the fans lashing out, Alonso and comapny reacted by trivializing the fanbase’s concerns, escalating a misunderstanding into an argument. That latter bit, ultimately, is where Marvel err’d.
what editorial change? hercules in the 616 MU has always been straight and still is. man, marvel cannot win. they change the color or gender of a character, they get shit over it, they keep a character that’s always been straight, straight, and they get shit over that. does every character have to become someone else to what they were, and if not , there’s hell to pay? does every character have to stay the same and if not, there’s hell to pay? alonzo & co. were just as insensitive to fans that were pissed about a female thor as they are to fans that are pissed about not having a bi-hercules. but i guess depending on which side you’re on, you may or may not have a problem with who they’re being jerks to. by the way this “all-new , all-different” nonsense this just that, nonsense. except for spider-man and maybe a few other characters starting from scratch, every character is picking up right where they left off before secret wars and we’re catching up to them eight months later. just a lot of characters being shuffled around onto different teams, settings, etc. this is not a “new52″ type reboot. it’s just the illusion of being an “all-new, all-different” reboot.
Speaking as someone who actually does have a horse in the race, abc, the difference comes down to which group is in a position of power. The mainline Thor whose adventures we will be following is a woman now? Great! Chalk one up for representing women readers searching for more heroes they can relate to. And hey, Odinson’s still out there, so fan’s of the *character* can still follow his brave deeds aplenty, and moreover, look kids! Reprints! Collections and catalogues full of thousands upon thousands of pages all sorts of manly Thor-ness across many a title over many a year!
Meanwhile, who do I, as a bi-male reader have in the Marvel U? Alright, Loki, could be inter — oh, wait. That pretty much just came up in interviews and didn’t really get explored in the title. Also, there’s that whole “trickster” stereotype that causes complications if he’s going to be the only rep for bi pride out there. Okay… Ah! How about that Herc guy? As the author stated, most of the Marvel U version of Hercules’ implied bisexuality was invented in years past on the readers’ part due to his connections to the Hercules of Greek mythology. Enter Pak & Van Lente, who bring this just a little bit into subtext in the book itself very slowly over the course of their run. Cool! Maybe this is something we can run with, right? Oh, and there was that cool alt-universe stuff going on between him and alt-universe Wolverine in that X-Men book that about twelve people read? Hey, in-story precedent! Cool!
But…wait…Mr. Alonso? What’s that? Not even a “Wait and see” or “This isn’t a road we’re going to explore at this time…? Just a…”No, you’re all wrong?” Well, that’s… That’s just… What’s the word for that? Oh yeah, it hurts. Bloody smack in the face the way he said it (and not the fun kind).
Before Secret Wars, I was picking up about a dozen Marvel books a month and a fair share of collected editions, anywhere from $100-$300 worth per. I dropped the monthlies during the big event, while I waited for some other favorite creator-centric runs to wrap up, but after this? Bye, Marvel. Already cancelled pulls of titles I would have been picking up; my money’s already where my mouth is. I’m sure you won’t miss it, but it’s all I can do. Sometimes I love you guys at the House of Ideas, but this is ugly disdain.
Oh man, my grammar is atrocious when I’m angry. Spot an error? I probably already did and am secretly ashamed, weeping at the lack of an “edit” feature.
Thom, seriously, if you’re willing to drop Marvel over this, they won’t miss your dollars. The character has always been depicted as heavily straight, so why should they change it to accommodate a tiny handful of readers? Guarantee you it would piss off a lot more readers than it would please if Marvel decided to go this route. Many would view it as a publicity stunt, since homosexual rights and transgender issues are the hot topic at the moment. Marvel is a business so they’d be more willing to lose their one to two percent of bisexual readers rather than the the 30 to 40 percent(estimate) of the fanbase that would probably not be down with this idea/storyline.
“The character has always been depicted as heavily straight, so why should they change it to accommodate a tiny handful of readers?”
Because there aren’t enough gay and bi characters represented in comics and this one with his already existing historical background would be pretty much perfect.
“Guarantee you it would piss off a lot more readers than it would please if Marvel decided to go this route.”
I’m sure it would. Maybe that would be a good thing. If you really think 30-40% of the readers would have a problem with Hercules being bisexual you have a very low opinion of those people.
“Marvel is a business so they’d be more willing to lose their one to two percent of bisexual readers rather than the the 30 to 40 percent(estimate) of the fanbase that would probably not be down with this idea/storyline.”
Wait… Marvel’s “Hercules” has a “fanbase”? Because, like, as a retailer a see a character that was d-list at best, until Marvel (nearly) literally *forced* “Incredible Hulk” readers to buy his book with a character/title swap that kept the underlying series code in every retailer’s database. Which, as I recall, did nothing but shed readers month-by-month, and held on to the schedule largely because of crossover tie-ins and the spikes they brought. So, maybe profile raised to c-list?
You’d kind of HAVE to do something radical with the character (er, not that bi-sexuality itself is radical, but having sexuality be anything but a prop for a one-dimensional character like Herc, now that would be a radical thing in Marvel comics) to get retailers to order enough copies to be able to launch an ongoing… and succeed. My native order for a non-superstar team on a Herc book would be like maybe 15-20 copies, max? Less than half of what I’d order for the B-List characters, and twice that for the A-List. That way leads to cancellation. If it were the “All-New, All-Bi Herc #1″, dunno, I am in San Francisco so maybe that would move it from C-level to B-level orders for curiosity seekers, but even if I was some place more conservative I’d probably split the difference because there’s nothing inherently commercial about the Marvel version of the character.
(which is why you haven’t had a Herc comic any time lately)
So, yeah, as a retailer, I think the market would very much reject your math — a “controversial” Herc comic would sell better than a “boycotted by partisans” one.
-B
I find the invocation of “power” ironic, since it’s pretty clear who has the power in these situations. Hint – who found a more receptive audience online, the people who complained about making Rawhide Kid gay or the ones complaining about restoring Hercules’ heterosexuality.
And just to be clear, I’m talking about the initial, prepublication reaction. Once they actually saw the all-new, all-gay Rawhide Kid, I would guess the reaction was largely unanimous across all sorts of lines.
Mike