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Let me try again. I got way too windy on my initial response.

I can't help thinking it's a simple, economics supply-demand issue. There are so many writers, so many submissions, that publishers, in a sense, have the upper hand right now. Add to that the changing world of books, how people are reading and their willingness to buy books, the profits are being spread thin for publishers as well.

As you suggested, I think most writers want to see their creations enjoyed by readers.

I am glad there are large groups advocating for authors. Corporations are, after all, very bottom-line motivated and the creators can get lost in that shuffle

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LOL, I'm giving this a second try too.

I think the biggest dealbreakers with the original terms of Hydra did not have to do with no advance. There were other issues: Hydra wanted the rights to the work forever, they were taking all foreign rights, and they were deducting expenses normally absorbed by the publisher such as editorial work and cover art.

The new terms, even for the profit-sharing model, have an out-of-print clause and allow you to negotiate foreign and subrights. That's an important improvement, IMO.

Also, I don't know about SFWA but RWA does allow monies from royalty to count toward membership qualifications for PAN, their subgroup for published authors.

If a publisher doesn't offer an advance is this telling you that publisher doesn't expect to make much money from your book (and neither should you)?

@Julie: Well said, it is a business and the creative person is often not business-minded. In today's world, we have to be or as you said we will be lost in the shuffle. I am glad, too, that the publisher listened to the outrage though. It reminds me of what happened a few years ago in the children's publishing world with book covers.

@Maya: Thanks for adding that--yes, I knew there were many more issues besides the advance, but the blog post I read that bothered me the most was on John's site: WHATEVER and mostly talked about advances--I guess because I haven't gotten one, I took offense. :)

@Amber: I'm not sure. Maybe it means it's a changing world and nobody really knows what's going to happen yet until you get a book or two published and test the market. I write children's books. I write historical fiction and picture books--neither one of those are high money makers right now, and I know that. I am happy that someone is paying me to write and share that with children/teachers/parents. I guess for me it doesn't matter if it's upfront or after. And I guess I wrote this post trying to figure out if it should matter to me OR if it mattered to most and I was a minority.

To all--thanks for your comments! It's an interesting debate/situation. And I definitely don't think publishers should take advantage of new authors, of course; but I also think smaller and mid-level publishers need to have a good business model or they will find themselves going bankrupt in today's market.

Thanks for posting this, Margo! I was unaware of the controversy with Random House's digital-only lines. When we did the E-Publishing Revolution issue a couple of years ago, I was a little shocked to learn that most e-publishers, with few exceptions, do NOT offer advances. I agree with Julie's point of the changing climate of publishing, but I'm not sure if profits are being spread too thin for publishers. I know book stats have always been vague in the publishing industry, but it appears from the publisher-reported stats that digital sales have increased exponentially over the past few years. But I've also heard from other sources like Digital Book World that profits at the larger publishers have risen while sales have remained flat. Are they making profits because of lower advances, less money spent on marketing, and lower production costs for digital books?

Like many other industries it is lopsided and in favor of the conglomerates. Small and mid-size publishers struggle in the marketplace. I think it's up to the individual author to decide what's right for her. And I don't think you should take offense, Margo, about the comments on the advance. SFWA has always had these strict guidelines in place, despite the changing industry. They even have a list of publications you have to have been published in to qualify to apply for a membership!

But what is AWESOME about this story is the power of the people--because writers, organizations, agents, and readers spoke out against this contract, Random House changed it.

I love discussions like this! I'd love to see more of this on The Muffin. :)

Ang: You are right. :) I should look at it in a more positive light--power to the people--makes me think a little of the scene in Les Mis where the college rebels are waving the flag and singing, "Do You Hear the People Sing?" :) I qualify for PAL (Published Author List) with SCBWI which is my genre anyway, and my publisher is on their list. So there. :) LOL

I would say this is yet one more reason to have an agent. She will be able to gauge whether or not the publisher's offer of an advance is reasonable based on those factors, and try to negotiate something better.

If there's an offer from a publisher, now's the ideal time to try and hook an agent.

Wonderful - really liked this. Your blog has so much useful info - thank you so much! Will you ever do an e course in children's book illustration, I wonder? If you do, I'll sign up!

Again, great stuff! Thankyou!
Carrie... :)

I don't know where I first found the link to you blog yesterday, but thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience! Your two videos are wonderful.

Kristin,
Thanks as always for the info. Can you elaborate on the "stumbling blocks" of the second novel you spoke of?

I had the same question. I thought of Dan Brown and how he had more success with THE DA VINCI CODE than he did with ANGELS AND DEMONS, which he'd written first. Just one example, but it'd be great to have the "stumbling blocks" clarified. :)

Are several "stand alone" novels ever sold as a multiple book contract? I understand selling a series in a multiple book contract, but there are a lot of non-literary books that stand alone. I am currently querying a contemperary YA novel and writing a second. The second novel doesn't have any common characters with the first and both books are meant to stand alone. Do publishers actually give multiple book deals to writers like me? I always assumed I'd be selling each book individully.

Aww, does that mean no more Jamie Ford? Or is he off writing for ten years?

This is interesting though. I mean, all authors' nightmares consist of books not selling a dime and them never being published again. Those two-book deals don't seem too bad for those writing single novels.

But, like said, I won't worry. YA series and various other novels to share. I could never write literary or nonfiction if I was forced-fed poison...well, I could, but it'd be awful.
BTW, though this would be cool for you to know - there was this contest I was enterering to win some awesome YA books, and one was "GIVE UP THE GHOST". And one of the questions to get it was "What was your favorite kiss scene in any YA book?" Not only was PERFECT CHEMISTRY mentioned (a given) but so was THE DEMON'S LEXICON! Three in one blog post! :)

Looking forward to more on the subject!

For genre fiction if you get a two or more book deal, do the books have to be related?

Thanks for sharing. It's great to see why an agent would strive for one type of deal over another.

Hi Kristin,

You're really a great writer who is agenting... this piece is really great. Thank you very much.

Rehman Pakistani
Editor
http://theterrorland.blogspot.com

Kristin,

What a great insight.

Looking forward to more on the subject!

Kristin--I'm a genre (fantasy) writer. My current goal is to eventually get a novel published but I already know I'm not one of those writers who can write to a deadline, and many of my fantasy projects are looking to be standalones. I don't intend to sign a mutli-book contract if I can help it at all, but I can think of only one fantasy author who isn't writng copious numbers of novels (Robin McKinley). How likely is it that I'd be able to get a one book contract, for each book as I finish it, instead of having to do a multi-book one and failing miserably?

I think I'd prefer one book deals, I'd rather have a book written and available than all the stress of writing to a deadline - that wouldn't be creatively inspiring

Thanks for nugget - "one’s editor tends to be really important in literary fiction"

Could you talk about option novels sometime soon? In your experience do they usually sell to the initial publisher?

Thanks for all you do here!

Gosh, you're gorgeous in that photo! Wow. Mama mia. I so love mature women. Thank God! I will see you Upstairs in the Great Beyond for my BIG-OL party for years and years celebrating our resurrection!! Very cool. Can't wait...

I knew the single-book deal has its advantages thanks

It is more a pressure to have signed a multi-book deal and you get the block rather than be stressed for another contract.

Can you talk a little bit more about why an editor is more important to a literary fiction author than to a genre author? Is the nature of the editor different (ie, does the editor of a literary fiction novel do something different than a genre editor)?

I've heard of various writers struggling to write a second book because now there is more pressure to be as good or better as the first book.

The first book is something you can take as long as you want to write and edit--while the second you might be under the gun to produce...or just feel a creative block, especially after you've been in the editing mode for so long.

Thanks for posting on this, Kristin. It really is comforting to know that not every agent will press a writer to take a multi-book contract if such a contract doesn't work for that writer's needs.

Personally I'd rather build my reputation one high-quality book at a time than rush out with a second or third book that just isn't ready.

Thanks for that, Kristin.

I have a question for you. I've done a lot of research on the publishing market, and that includes self publishing. In a blog about self publishing (http://www.fonerbooks.com/contract.htm), I read the following statement:

Here the author grants the publisher the right to publish the work, as protected by copyright law. For most authors this means the exclusive worldwide rights, including all derivative works, etc.

I understand that it's natural for the publisher to own the right to publishing the books, but all derivative works as well? Does this mean that if I write my fantasy series and manage to sell the trilogy to a publisher, I can't ever write anything else from that world or use those unique magical characters I've created and sell it to another publisher (if the trilogy publisher doesn't want to buy it)? Or even just write short stories and publish it on my webpage or whatnot?

Is this a negotiation matter?

For reason number 1 alone I just don't think multi-book contracts are for everyone. Great post.

Very interesting post. I'm thinking maybe I'm pitching my YA novel wrong. Maybe it should be classified as literary like "Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet."

I'll have to think about that.

Yes, I also want to know the answer to Katie's question @ 9:21 -- what about that?

Love this post, this is the crap no one else talks about!

This is great information. I'm currently writing a novel and if I manage to sell it, I already know I would lean toward a one book deal. I think the second book is such a huge undertaking and I could never write it on deadline. I firmly believe the quality would suffer and I'd hate to have a crappy sophomore novel because I had to rush the process.

My last fantasy contract was a single book contract because it was the last book in as series and we wanted a clean break between book five of the last series and the beginning of the next. Current contract is three books.

@ Tessa

I'm not up on the finer points of contract, but I would not sign anything that looked like that. For starters, agents often hold back and manage foreign rights separately. In such a case, a U.S. publisher would only get North American rights. Another point is that you should hold onto film and certain other subsidiary rights wherever possible--another thing your agent can help with.

"All derivative works" is an insane clause (unless a list of derivative works is given and has limitations). Theoretically you couldn't even publish a short story based on your novels without their permission.

This is why you need, need, NEED a good agent.

If you're going to self-publish, it makes more sense to be a true self-publisher, where you do the dealing with the printers, designers, etc., pay full costs and retain full control of your rights. Otherwise you may end by giving up more than you want for a package of services that does less than you hoped for.

Hope this helps. :-)

That helps. Thanks so much :) And yes, self-publishing is my last resort. First is to try to get an agent. Second to get a publisher. If neither work, I'll re-write the story and try again. If that doesn't work then I might look into self-publishing.

How does one get a literary blog to be read by an agent? I cannot find any helpful information. Self promotion can only do so much.

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I think the best thing to do in this situation if a writer insists on a one book deal is put in a solid option for the second book in the contract.

This will keep your options open, if they choose to write a second book, you get "First Dibs" on the deal. Throw in better terms than the first to get the author interested b/c you are only going to want to publish the second book if the first one performs anyway.

When I query an agent should I mention that the book I'm selling is the first in a trilogy? Some writers tell me that I shouldn't, but I'm not sure.

Stella that's an excellent question. I have a series, but I'm not sure if I should query the first book as a stand alone or query it as a series.

I've been told to say something like:

Awesomest Book Ever is a stand alone novel with series potential.

Maybe you could try that.

Huh, interesting topic. I'm not a writer so I'll refrain from commenting on it, but I will check back on comments. :)

Stella and Erinn, what I've heard is that you should make the first book strong enough it can stand on its own, but has series potential. Then you query saying exactly that--written as a stand alone with series potential. Hope that helps!

Thanks for the post, Kristin! I think as writers we tend to look very favorably on multi-book deals, and forget that the advance money needs to be a good sum for all those books. I guess that's one more reason we need agents!

I can't wait to have a contract whether single or multi. It only takes one. And the rest is history so to speak.

Yeah, Stella, I agree with Suzanne. Best to query the first book only. I'm always seeing agents mention this about bad queries.

Awesomest Book Ever is a stand alone novel with series potential.
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For a first time author, is it best to stay away from series all together?

The sort of series I'm referring to would be similar to The Inheritance Cycle or Lord of the Rings (an extreme example), where the story isn't complete until the end of the last book, so the first book queried couldn't be stand alone.

I ask because I'm currently working on a book which I'm not sure I can fit into the fantasy guidelines of 110k words, and is looking more and more likely to span two full length novels. Is this going to cause a problem when I get to the query process?

Hello Kristin,

I was wondering if you would offer a critique of someones query letter? I wrote my first novel and showed some old army buddies. They showed their friends, and, well, they all pooled together for a line editor for me. Now that the novel is in that stage I was wondering if it was time for me to start putting together a query letter. I've got a lot of people betting on me, so I want to do them right. Would you be willing to critique a query letter in private? I don't want to give away a ending before it publishes. The first two short stories I wrote were accepted to magazines and I have two new ones I am going to send out. I'm about to undertake my second novel, but I am afraid of doing to much writing and not enough agent searching. Any help would be great.

I am reading your blog and it will be helpful when I get to the right stages.


I hope you have a wonderful day,

Draven Ames

"the first book queried couldn't be stand alone"

Each book needs to work as an individual unit, though. Star Wars, say, is a good example of a standalone film that very clearly would justify sequels if the demand is there. One of the ways it does that is by hinting at a bigger picture - the main one, though, is it works so darn well as an individual movie.

So, rather than try to commit a publisher to ten books before, show them one brilliant one.

Think of this from the readers' point of view. If your story *really* doesn't work until they finish book ten ... well, are they going to stick around that long?

Concentrate on the first book. Get that right and the sequels will look after themselves.

Draven

Query/agent research is a snip :) First visit queryshark (http://queryshark.blogspot.com/) and read the six years of query critiques. This will give you an idea of the dos and don'ts of query writing. Then read the blogs and websites of agents who represent the type of book you have written. Then you're ready to write your own query, and submit your manuscript. Good luck!

If you are a genre writer- specifically fantasy, what if you don't have a series? I am in final edits to a story that I consider complete, stand alone. I am sure the characters still have adventures and trials, but I am very happy with where they end and have no further inspiration with them. Also, the novel is around 85k (in final edits, so might move a little from that but not much). Can I get such a short, stand alone fantasy book published?

Another point you may want to cover with the multibook contract are some of the contract land mines you want to avoid like having all of the royalties held until all of the author's books in that contract have earned out.

Kristin, how long on average does it take for editors to respond to you with an answer, one way or the other, after you've submitted a manuscript to them? Thanks very much!

Thanks for talking about this; my project happens to be a YA/urban fantasy series, so of course I'm looking at multi-books...it'll be cool to know hos this works. You always talk about the right stuff. :)

Considering how challenging it is to achieve paying (any kind of pay) publication *at all,* I am not even remotely concerned with this issue.

I'll be querying everyone, editors and agents, big press, small press, and epubs too, all at once, and taking the best deal I'm offered, if I'm offered at all. I certainly won't turn one down because it won't lead directly to New York.

Wow, this really sheds light on a recent event which unfolded for me recently.

I accepted a publishing agreement from a small Inde publisher because it was an offer to get published.

It was only after the fact (before I signed a contract) in which I did the math and realized I would only be making 1.60$ a book, with no advance. Yes, I consider that very low.

But I could have lived with that, it was the demand of putting the publisher's very large, very tacky unprofessional looking logo across the top cover of my book that broke the deal.

My cover art didn't allow room for it and he refused to budge.

So, I'm back to the drawing board with querying.

I think all aspiring authors should research many things before breaking into print.

Thanks for your insight.

I have several romantic suspense novels published with small presses. My true love, however, is traditional mystery, and I just finished writing one. I've begun the query process, but this post certainly opened my eyes to the reality of what's likely to happen.

Too bad, because I, for one, much prefer mystery over suspense and wish publishers would offer a wider variety of genre choices.

Great points! I also would point to an article in the recent Romance Writers Report about "author mills" -- small presses who publish very low print runs of each book and spend most of their efforts begging authors to buy extra copies of their own books to distribute for sale, along with making authors do all the work when it comes to marketing the book...and bookstores refusing to carry the book. Before I signed with any publisher with whom I was unfamiliar, I'd first make sure the local bookstores will carry books by those publishers.

Author mills

Thanks for this post, and to those who have commented thus far--lots of good information.

Personally, my goal isn't only to be published, but to build a writing career. I am slightly nervous at your comment, Jessica, that "there aren’t that many publishers actively looking for new mystery authors" as my heart is into writing cozy mysteries. But, if I follow Ms. Stanely's advice from yesterday, I should also stay true to my voice. I know it's a risk, but I'm going to take my chances (for now) with my cozy mystery and hope for the best.

Thanks again.

I just had my debut novel published with a small press, which was no small decision for me. It's been an excellent process, though, and while I'm doing lots of marketing myself, it's no less than I'd expect to do with a larger publisher, especially if I wasn't one of their top tier writers.

My questions for you, Jessica, is this: You mentioned that agents and publishers look for how many books have sold, but what happens if I'm ready to query a new novel with an agent within six months of publishing the first? If my first book hasn't sold 5,000 copies in the first few months, is that a drawback, or do agents accept that a book from a small publisher might take a little more time to gain momentum?

Jessica's core comment, "it depends on what your goals are," pretty much nails it.

That said (and I have to admit to being incredibly biased, here, as someone who happens to own a small press), I say go with the small press. Why? A few reasons:

* The small press is much more likely to care about you as a person, and to actually like your book themselves. That's not the same as money, but there's something to be said for working with people who can actually give you the time of day.

* The small press is much more likely to engage you and respect your feelings about matters such as cover art.

* Average per-title sales across the entire industry are probably a lot lower than you think. Selling 5000 copies is WAY above average, and a committed small press ought to be able to do that.

* If your book does amazingly well, the smallness of the press isn't going to matter. If the book does well enough to interest a big house, the small press will probably say yes to a buy-out offer for your book; in effect, the small press just agented the book to the large press for you. On the other hand, if the book does super-amazingly well, then the small press isn't going to be so small anymore. Problem solved!

* Speaking of agents, much as they perform a valuable service in the industry, with a small press you're much more likely to get a deal without an agent, and keep that agent's commission for yourself.

* Either way, at the end of the day a lot of authors just want to be able to say that they're published, in a for-real, not on LuLu.com kind of way. Sure, it's a big deal if Tor picks up your new epic fantasy novel or whatever. That's major street cred. But it's a big deal if a small press agrees to put their name, reputation, and often quite limited marketing budget behind your book. All presses are choosy, but small presses are choosy in a way that bigger presses aren't necessarily forced to be. A big press can absorb a few duds, but the small press has to be sure they can at least break even on everything. So for a small press to back your book, that's no small testament to how the people at that press feel about your book's overall quality. It's different from major publisher acceptance, but it's something to be genuinely proud of just the same.

If you have the incredible luxury of choosing between offers from a large press and a small press, obviously you'd be a fool not to choose the large press. But your odds of getting an offer from a small press are higher to begin with (being as there are so many more small presses to choose from), and those presses have their own good points that are worth considering, too.

Happy publishing!

I don't write mystery, but I did start with an small epublisher in 1998 before anyone knew what ebooks were. Sales were abysmal, but at the same time, I was learning more about my craft. My first NY sale came from a series that was selling online through a small epublisher, and I know of many other authors who've made the leap from epublishing to print: MaryJanice Davidson, Dakota Cassidy, Michele Bardsley, Shiloh Walker, Lora Leigh--but all of those, myself included, write erotic paranormal romance, and all of us happened to hit the market when that genre was hot. In a perfect world, an author writes a book, finds an agent and gets a contract. The world is far from perfect and competition is growing stronger each year.

There's a lot to be said for learning more about publishing through working with a small press, but to really take a career to that next step, I can't imagine doing it without a good agent and a big publishing house as my ultimate goal.

I just checked the NYT bestseller list and I'd say almost HALF of the top novels are MYSTERIES! So why aren't pubs looking for unique mysteries from debut authors?

The number of mystery readers aren't going down--in fact, they seem to be more loyal to the mystery genre and an author than a fickle teen who likes YA. What will she read in a few years?

I think pubs who don't actively seek mystery/suspense are missing a big chunk of the market. Their loss--and ours!

Not only the post, but the comments are interesting.

I see alot of benefit to small press or e-book publishing, but I think people are wise to really thoroughly research what they are getting into.

I also want to say there's a third option, which is to wait for the market.

If mysteries aren't selling now, they may be selling later.

I guess this depends upon your goals, but it does seem like so many people are in such a rush. Why not wait abit and see if the market changes?

Of course, it's hard to know sometimes what the market is, but you can also guess. In economic hard times, people will want things that are fun and/or comforting to read. If you write horror, this may not be the time to try to get published, for example. Of course, I could be completely wrong - maybe horror is jumping off the charts, but that would be my guess.

Good luck to the author on finding a home, whatever they choose!

To Anonymous speaking of the NYT list. Bookshelves lump mysteries, suspense and thrillers together. Ms. Faust was drawing a line between mystery and suspense, which are two sub-sets under the larger mystery umbrella.

In romance, the genre is all lumped together as 'romantic suspense' although it's suppose to cover the gamut from cozy to thriller. However, having given in the 'suspense' moniker, readers assume the books will be suspense. But there are differences.

Anonymous #1 said:
I'll be querying everyone, editors and agents, big press, small press, and epubs too, all at once, and taking the best deal I'm offered, if I'm offered at all.

I suggest you rethink that approach. If you are unknown, and you query "everyone" simultaneously, you've already got a strike or two against you.

A query is a request that you be invited to go into business with the agent or publisher. You are offering your book, and asking them to back it with their reputation and financial resources. If you have not already built a reputation to bring to the deal, it is unlikely that the publishing industry will beat the path to your door. Your best chance is to understand where your book fits in the current market (and current market trends), and query the agent or publisher that is the best match for your work. Sending blanket queries to "everyone", without regard for the suitability of your manuscript to their interests (and current needs) will build you a reputation - but not one you'd care to have.

There are several literary agent blogs running; read 6 months of a couple of those, and you've got a better chance to avoid self sabotage.

Jonathan, I agree that reading agent blogs prior to querying is an excellent idea. However, I might be wrong, but I don't think multiple queries will build you a reputation. Agents get so many queries. I doubt they share info about who queries them....?

Interesting answers. I'm hoping if I self-publish in one genre and keep submitting to publishers in another, maybe the self-pubbed bit won't hurt too much. Not that anyone, big or small, has ever said yes. If they did, I'd find it extremely hard to say no.

I've not run into the problem of small press publication causing issues with obtaining a NY publisher. I signed with a big press this spring after three years at an indy Canadian press. The awards I won while at that press helped me sign with my agent and I'd like to think they might have helped with the NY contract.

My time at the small press paired me with an incredible editor who helped me hone my skills. I don't believe I would be writing for St. Martin's now if I hadn't spent the time at Dragon Moon Press.

One disclaimer, however. I switched genres (SF&F/historical mystery to Y.A.) so that does give my new publisher's sales reps more leeway when it comes to those dreaded numbers

Thank you, Jana, for weighing in. Your experience is very encouraging. It's good to know that starting with a reputable small press can lead to bigger things.

Congratulations on your St. Martin's deal!

Just a perspective from an indi-publisher’s point of view: when XYSTUM Publishing begins taking manuscripts the deal will basically be something like this:

A $500 advance.

A 50/50 split of net e-book revenues.

Quality original cover art.

Editing, line-editing, and probably the best e-book formatting in the industry.

Placement on every e-reader platform in existence.

And we will sell it as hard as we can. Because we want to make money off it--I'll bet even more than the writer does.

But we are a small indi-publisher; there won't be any TV trailers or that sort of thing. The author may not get all that a big publisher could give them, but I'll bet we give all that a big publisher will give them. We are a legitimate North American publisher, our ISBN is 9802475. If a writer comes with us as we start up, then they have to realize it’s a start up company—but we came to play. And indi-publishers, just like us, are going to dominate the publishing world in the next few years.

On top of that, we’re completely transparent in our dealings. In fact, I'll tell you right now, our motive is simple: we want a massive slush pile of gothic manuscripts and we want to go panning for gold. We're small, we're start up, but we believe in gothic literary art, we will accept nothing less, and we believe one day we'll discover the next Edgar Allen Poe or Emily Bronte. We’re small, but we’re passionate. Our first title is coming out in March (No doubt it will be late and come out in June, but what can you do?).

I resent that small publishing and self-publishing were mention in the same sentence-breath in the OP. I think that’s unfair, but hey, that’s life. What role will agents have in an indi-publishing environment? Probably none. We won’t deal with agented manuscripts—we can’t afford to. Let the big dogs have the agents. Because the next Mary Shelley or Bram Stoker will come from an indi-press. You watch.

Just a perspective from an indi-publisher’s point of view: when XYSTUM Publishing begins taking manuscripts the deal will basically be something like this:

A $500 advance.

A 50/50 split of net e-book revenues.

Quality original cover art.

Editing, line-editing, and probably the best e-book formatting in the industry.

Placement on every e-reader platform in existence.

And we will sell it as hard as we can. Because we want to make money off it--I'll bet even more than the writer does.

But we are a small indi-publisher; there won't be any TV trailers or that sort of thing. The author may not get all that a big publisher could give them, but I'll bet we give all that a big publisher will give them. We are a legitimate North American publisher, our ISBN is 9802475. If a writer comes with us as we start up, then they have to realize it’s a start up company—but we came to play. And indi-publishers, just like us, are going to dominate the publishing world in the next few years.

On top of that, we’re completely transparent in our dealings. In fact, I'll tell you right now, our motive is simple: we want a massive slush pile of gothic manuscripts and we want to go panning for gold. We're small, we're start up, but we believe in gothic literary art, we will accept nothing less, and we believe one day we'll discover the next Edgar Allan Poe or Emily Bronte. We’re small, but we’re passionate. Our first title is coming out in March (No doubt it will be late and come out in June, but what can you do?).

I resent that “small publishing” and “self-publishing” were mention in the same sentence-breath in the OP. I think that’s unfair, but hey, that’s life.

What role will agents have in an indi-publishing environment? Probably none. We won’t deal with agented manuscripts—we can’t afford to. Let the big dogs have the agents. Because the next Mary Shelley or Bram Stoker will come from an indi-press, you watch.

Thanks, writergrrrl. It's been one heckuva ride.

Gordon - I didn't mind the fact that self-pub and small press are mentioned in the same breath. They're just different points on the publishing continuum and I didn't sense the intent to tar small with self-pub "cooties". The takeaway message is that each writer has to decide how they're going to tackle their career, then live with the consequences.

Jana Oliver wrote: "I switched genres SF&F/historical mystery to Y.A."

Why the switch from mysteries? Over time, it seems easier to have/build a larger, more loyal fan base with a mystery versus YA.

Actually, I think the potential is greater in YA than in straight mystery if your books appeal to both teens and adults (as in Stephenie Meyer, P.C. Cast, etc). Teen sales numbers are amazing. Often Y.A. advances are higher and foreign rights are purchased a bit quicker. (At least they were in my case).

Since I wrote genre-blended mysteries the switch to urban fantasy wasn't difficult. I had intended to write an adult U.F., but a friend persuaded me to consider writing a Y.A. protagonist given the success of her novels. To my delight the story actually worked. Of course, at the heart of the series is a mystery (grin).

So there was a conscious financial component to my decision, but it was tempered by the demands of the story. If that hadn't worked I wouldn't have moved forward with the project. Extra money is always welcome but not if the book sucks. That's way hard to walk back.

Sold a "mystery" (although I billed it as a thriller, as does the publisher but it's technically a whodunnit style mystery) to a small press for a $5,000 advance, without an agent, last year, for a MMPB release. Asked me to write another one but wouldn't contract for book #2 until seeing it (or perhaps until seeing how #1 sells?).

"I'll be querying everyone, editors and agents, big press, small press, and epubs too, all at once, and taking the best deal I'm offered, if I'm offered at all. I certainly won't turn one down because it won't lead directly to New York."

I generally agree with this strategy with the following caveat: the larger players (i.e. agent-NYC house route) take longer to respond than do the smaller players. So I recommend giving the big players a 3-month head start before you approach the smaller ones.

great post, even though i'm still working on the whole getting-published-for-first-time-around step. hopefully this wouldn't happen to me, but if it did i'd have this post to look back on :)

And sadly, with weak numbers, if you weren't repped before, it's going to be harder than before to find a good agent. It's a hard business.

Ow! This is a depressing dose of reality.

I’ve come to realize that there are many things beyond writing a great novel that determines an author’s sales.

If this author found an agent and a publisher for more than one novel, could the low sales numbers be due more to an ineffective book cover, or a bad release date, or a lack of advertising and marketing rather than the novels themselves?

If so, why would other publishers penalize the author if they liked the new book? Wouldn’t they consider that the sales issue might be due to the previous publisher’s handling of the novel?

As I'm also still waiting for that first contract, I can only thank God my first book didn't sell, even though at the time I was crushed. My second novel is 100 times better and therefore more likely to meet sales expectations. Maybe I can sneak that first one back in the mix after I've successfully sold out a few books.

AM:

Read some of my other posts. The low sales could be caused by a number of things--the cover, the content, the release date, the subject. Unfortunately there's no way to know. What the publisher will know is that bookstores are only going to place orders based on your previous sales.

They might not "punish the author" as you say, but it will effect the bottom line and, as I've said time and time again, publishing is a business.

--jhf

I'm a little confused about the pseudonym. Even though the agent and publisher knows your real name, and therefore the sales you made, do they look at you as if you didn't have that "failure" (assuming the sales were poor) just as long as you use a pseudonym now?
And if so, why?

Anonymous, I've seen authors totally reinvent themselves with a new genre and a new name. Jessica Bird, aka J.R.Ward comes to mind--Ward's Black Dagger Brotherhood series is a total 180 from her traditional contemporary romances written as Jessica Bird. That new name and new series has catapulted her from mid-list author to NY Times bestseller. Ann Maxwell wrote s/f and mysteries with her husband, but as Elizabeth Lowell she regularly hits the best seller lists with her romances.

The pseudonym gives authors a chance to break out in a new genre w/o the old books that might not have been successful pulling them down. A reader who might have looked at a Jessica Bird romance and passed it by will pre-order the new BDB books months in advance--same goes for bookstore orders. I thought long and hard about changing my name for my new series, but finally decided to stick with Kate Douglas in the hopes that I would bring my readers of erotic paranormal romance over to my new paranormal romance series. The first book, DemonFire, doesn't release until March, but in the meantime I'm working on the name branding and hoping to get a buzz going to push sales. So much of publishing is about marketing and perception, something you don't realize until that first book is ready to release.

Kate:
Thank you (from Anon 12:37)!
What if you're not changing genres? And do you have to use a psuedonym just to get an agent or publisher to consider your new series?

Helpful! Thanks -

Thanks for responding, Jessica. I will read your previous postings.

And thanks, Kate. Create a new brand. This is making sense.

I’ve been trying to understand the nuances of authors’ rankings within the industry. Until recently, I thought the accepted standard was that new authors developed their sales over time. However, recent blogs have led me to believe, perhaps incorrectly, that once an author is ranked based on their first novels’ sales, it is very difficult for them to change their ranking in the industry.

As Jessica mentioned, bookstores set order quantities based on authors' historical sales and of course, having less books on the shelves will probably lead to lower sales.

If this perception is accurate, then my entire concept about first time authors’ careers must change. My entire writing career may be dictated by my first novel’s sales.

Today, I’ve learned a great deal.

Thanks to you both.

I'm in the position of trying to resuscitate a stalled career after my debut novel tanked, due to its small press publisher failing to send out advance review copies in time for the deadlines of the trade journals. Hence, no reviews and disastrous sales. Even though my publisher stuck with me for the second novel, which was in a different genre, no one suggested I write under a pseudonym, so the chains didn't buy the new book. This one, however, has gotten superb reviews, award nominations, and decent support from independent bookstore, all this in spite of the fact that its publisher was going bust.

People are telling me that my next book, for which I'm starting to look for an agent, will get a chance because of the critical success of the second novel and its lower expectations of sales coming as it is from a struggling small press. Is that true?

I sure hope so, anon 3:12. Good job.

What I love about this post is the message that we CAN fix a stalled career. Just what I've been waiting to hear. Thanks, Jessica!

So much information - and it's all helpful (from the commenters too!) - Thanks.

Anon 12:50 pm asked: What if you're not changing genres? And do you have to use a psuedonym just to get an agent or publisher to consider your new series?

This post at Absolute Write explains the Death Spiral in all its depressing glory.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82771&postcount=481

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anon 810 from anon 1250:
Wow, that is depressing, but thanks.

Anon 8:10,

That link to James Mcdonald's posting at the Absolute Write was very informative.

Thank you.

Speaking as a reader, not a writer, it makes me sad to hear that a writer has to write four books a year nowadays to get by -- because I am not going to buy any of these. I'm too suspicious: four books written in one year can't possibly be as good as those from a (full-time) author who writes one novel every year or year and a half. Just the other day I thought about trying out this new author (none that posted here) and almost did, but then I saw she has published 11 books in 3 years (or some such number) and I passed.

I love debut novels. They are often the author's best. (The only ones not rushed. The ones that really got whipped into shape until they were good enough to convince a publisher.) They are usually followed by several weaker works before the quality (sometimes) improves again. Fresh ideas take time to develop. I often wonder what great works of fiction we are missing out on because authors can no longer afford to revise their novels as long as they might like to.

Anonymous 1:36. I'm with you on the debut novels. Often written over a period of many years, sometimes put through an MFA workshop (sometimes a good thing, sometimes not, but definitely a good thing for the last debut novel I read) often they do have a certain freshness and passion. And then the books don't break out, or the author really only had one book in him or her, and we never hear from that author again.

Anon 1:36: I've observed the same phenomenon. Debut novel have several advantages:

1. Author gets to cherry pick from the dusty stack under the bed. Presumably she leads with her best work.

2. Author was writing from passion and instinct. It was still FUN!

3. No pressure. If it sucks, no one will ever know. If it sells and the next one sucks, the whole world will know.

4. This one doesn't apply to every author but for the charmed folks who wrote a book and struck gold the freshness stands out. They weren't so scared of cliches and obsessed with originality that the joy of it got squelched. Some of them are downright bold because they just didn't know any better.

One should hope that after the first book, writing should still be fun. If not, there are many easier ways to make a living.

Anon 1:36, if that author you were considering reading was Elizabeth Bear (14 novels published between 2005 and now!), she's worth it.

Mira, I'm with you on not jumping in too early. The novel I'm currently editing is good (IMHO), but not *that* good. I know I can do better, so probably won't query that one. Instead I'll keep writing and improving until I have something that really stands out. I *will* be querying, eventually but I won't rush it.

@ wonderer: No, it wasn't Elizabeth Bear. I've just bought two of her novels (must have missed that number somehow :o) but haven't gotten around to reading them yet.

I guess I've got 2 points. First, I totally agree on debut novels, but attribute the reason a little differently. These novels have had simmering time. It gets done, edited--an attempt is made, feedback, it's not ready... it is set aside a while, rewritten, edited... maybe 3 or 4 times while the writer tries to learn the the art of marketing herself to agents. By the time someone TAKES that first timers book, it is polished to remarkable smoothness.

I think all novels should go through that polishing process, but the marketing system would rather crank out any name that has proven successful--something consumers reinforce, by the way, or it wouldn't happen. The only GREAT later novels I find, are off genre, and probably put off for all that polishing time also...

My second point, and sort of a snarky one (not offense to anyone), is that I think writers are paid so little because we are a dime a dozen--there are SO MANY people who want to be published writers. Now only some small subset of these people actually has the whole package (great stories, and skill to tell it), but some of the not as great get through and fail. Many very good get through and STILL fail (financially) because of timing, or luck, or some such nonsense... so the publishing houses can't put as much up on the typical gamble. If there were a magic button we could push so only the 'worthy' got through then all the worthy could make more...

It is possible I am part of the rabble. I don't believe so, or I wouldn't keep going, but I think THAT is the reason for the low pay--too many people vying to fill the few available jobs of bestseller.

Well, counting all my online contacts from social networks, I've got 20,000 friends/followers/fans. So if each one of those buys the book (lol),I would STILL need to sell another 30,000 copies to make the 30K from this one book. Jesus! How to sell all those copies?! I guess I need like a million contacts.

Just remember, writers:

Amateures talk about "craft." Professionals talk about money.

Wow! I just stopped back by to check in and I have to say I've never seen so many Anon comments! Clearly this one is stirring the pot a bit.

BTW: Congrats on the agent news, Rick!

The figures would almost seem to be a deterrent to writing niche fiction. How sad if that stops a writer from writing to an albeit small audience. Such creativity lost.

anonymous 1:01: I'm in my office around seven every morning and write until I break for lunch, write again until I break for dinner and am usually back in my office until ten or later. I write all my own work from start to finish...some days I'm good for 10k words and it's all good, other days I'll struggle to get a thousand I can keep, but I love my fantasy world and it's a career I've wanted all my adult life. NO ONE else writes for me--even my editor doesn't always know what she's going to get until I turn it in, but somehow the stories always seem to come together the way I want. My Wolf Tales run around 80k words, my DemonSlayers are between 110k and 120k each.

Anonymous 1:36--I beg to differ with you. I write very quickly, but I'm a damned good writer. My books do extremely well--something I can assure you would not happen if I was turning out poorly written work. My first book for Kensington, published less than four years ago, is currently in its ninth printing and all of my titles are in extra print runs. The last novel was in reprints one week after release. That's not indicative of a bad book. All I can say is, by keeping to a rule like yours, you're probably missing some excellent reading.

I think the publishing industry makes writers feel so insecure and inferior, that they do indeed exploit and underpay us. But to offer a measly advance of $3000 is insulting for a year or more of work. If only these writers would stand up for themselves and refuse to be paid so poorly, then maybe we'd get somewhere. It worked (somewhat) in Hollywood!

Why is it mainly women (e.g. romance writers) who always seem to be the most abused and underpaid? And why do those women put up with it?
I know a romance writer who churns out 5 books a year just to pay the rent--why do they have to work so hard if the quality (not to mention their health) often suffers?
What's strange is, these are often the same gals who oppose a national health plan but they let their friends auction their services on ebay to pay their bills. What's wrong with that picture--and why don't publishers offer these writers health insurance, like they do their employees? Why not work smarter, not harder?

Anon 5:36

I think Stephen King might disagree with you. He wrote a whole book about the CRAFT of writing. "On Writing" happens to be a favorite amongst both amateur and professional writers.

Read On Writing. Discussing "Craft" is still the hallmark of an amateur.

Kate, I know that I probably miss a lot of excellent reading. There are too many excellent books out there to have any hope of catching them all. I did not comment on the quality of your writing (not having read your novels). As a writer still dreaming of publication, I am in awe of your achievements. Ninth print-run, wow, congratulations!

I was just saying that as a reader with too little time to read, when I'm trying to find a new author whose work I might enjoy, discovering that they write 3-5 books is a year makes me a little skeptic. Plus, you write faster than I read! I only read a novel a month or so. So it also feels intimidating (like a teacher setting me a list of required reading). Sometimes I still decide to give the author a try (if the first pages pull me in), but not often, especially if it's a series the author is writing.

That is my other frustration: those never-ending fantasy series. There was a time back, fifteen years or so, when suddenly everything was a series. Some of these took their writers 11 years or more to finish. I never* got past the 4th volume. What can I say, I love trilogies ;o) I like stories with a satisfying conclusion.

(*Since then, I have read four series past the fourth part, but these are more loosely connected, nearly stand-alones.)

A second comment to Kate: What a daunting schedule--I'm exhausted just reading your post.
Seriously, since you're dong so well, why push yourself SO hard? I doubt your agent (Jessica?) wants you to kill yourself writing so many books. Why not *just* write 2-3 books a year, which is more than most of us can possibly achieve?

Maybe your readers could wait a bit longer for your gems while you take a breather. Whew!
Not trying to tell you what to do but as one who has suffered health issues as a professional writer, I'm only making an observation and a suggestion. In any case, congrats on your success! Hope you have time to stop and smell the roses and drink the coffee...

Is there such a thing as getting too large an advance? Yes, every once in a great while. If a publisher offers you a big advance, should you take it? Yes, except for every once in a great while. The fact is (a) publishers are so cheap that this is unlikely to be a problem for you; (b) money in the hand (the advance) is ALWAYS more valuable to you than money you might or might not get later (the royalties); and (c) while a large advance is not a guarantee of a successful novel, it is almost certainly a guarantee of motivated marketing by your publishing house, which can very much help you be successful.

I sold my first books for not much, and have been happy with the royalties since. I sold my next books for much more, and I am not counting on seeing a dime in royalties. I am, on the other hand, free from a day job for the next several years -- during which I can work on writing and selling OTHER books.

Anon 8:17--Please don't feel sorry for me! I'm doing exactly what I want on the schedule I want and I'm making a better income than I ever imagined, so I have absolutely no complaints. I happen to be a type-A type who struggled for twenty frickin' years to get published. I didn't sign my first NY contract until I was 55 years old. At my age--60 in a couple of months--I don't intend to waste a second. I'm living a dream and loving every minute. I can walk into any book store and see my books on front tables and end caps and on the shelves, and believe me, it's worth every minute of the struggle to get published to be where I am now. And yes, I owe that first sale to my fantastic agent (thanks, Jessica!) but the hours I put in and the number of books I agree to write have been entirely up to me.

Twenty years! That does give a person reason to hope. I've been trying for 11 years. OK, so I give myself another 9 years. Ha!

Thanks for sharing.

To Kate Douglas from anon 1:01:
I believe you and am totally impressed. You must have super inate story-telling ability and well-honed writing skills. I, on the other hand, though I've written 7 novels, struglle to come up with a good story and need to re-write so many times that I could never write more than one novel a year (and that's something I rarely achieve nowadays). One of my biggest problems is I can't get my word count to reach the minimum requirements. I never see advice on that problem b/c, it seems, nearly all writers have the opposite problem. You probably aren't reading this now b/c it's 9/25, but if you are and have some advice on that topic, I'd really appreciate it. (And I plan to look for some of your books. Do you write under the nameKate Douglas?)

Kate:
A P.S. from anon 1:01. I just read what you said about getting your first contract at 55, etc. I LOVE you. You have made my day (year?). I'm 56 and have been worrying myself to a frnzy about never being accepted again b/c I'm too ol. Of course, I have the added problem of not having submitted anything for over ten yrs. But still, you give me hope and courage. Thank you for being so candid!!!

Anonymous 12:56: Fwiw, I just got a note this morning from Anne McCaffrey. For those of you who read science fiction, you may be familiar with her Dragonriders of Pern series. I met Anne because she's a fan of my series and the woman is amazing--and at 83 1/2 (and yes, she does add the 1/2!)she is still writing, both on her own and in collaboration with her son. Now THAT is inspirational!

As far as being an older author--I really believe we can bring our years of life experience to our writing. As long as the brain still works, I hope to keep doing what I'm doing now.

Anonymous 1:01--yes, I do write under the name Kate Douglas, but I always warn new readers that my Wolf Tales series pushes a lot of buttons for some people, and unless you're really into boundary-pushing erotic romance, I don't recommend them. If you're interested in seeing what I do and prefer "regular" stories, I've got a new series debuting in March, first book DemonFire, which is paranormal but not erotic...and, there are always the excerpts on my website for both erotic and non-erotic stories at katedouglas.com.

As far as getting word count--so often our first draft tells the story, but in fairly terse black and white. Once I get the framework of the story down, I go back with my imaginary crayolas and add the color. What do your characters see? What does the air smell like, the sky look like? How is the room arranged or what season is it? Are the leaves beneath their feet crunchy or damp with morning dew? Get into their heads--become your characters and experience their feelings, their thoughts about whatever acts they're involved in. I always know my characters when I start a story--if they have brothers and sisters, where they went to school, what their favorite sport is, how they spend their down time. These things may never show up in the book, but they do affect the way the character observes the world around them, and those observations, when sprinkled throughout the story, bring up your word count and add life to the book.

I'm thinking "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" as another fine example of a book with low expectations and an even lower first print run (what I wouldn't give for one of those first eds).

Makes much sense. After all, any "enterprise" an investor is willing to invest in is a sort of a lottery. There are many rational and factual information the investor uses to support his decision, but ultimately there is no way to know with certainty if the investment will be lucrative, as there are so many random factors interacting during the whole process.

In this sense, it feels that books are similar to ventures, for no one can predict with certainty what the public's response to it will be. That is, one can work to make it more viable by making a great cover, investing in marketing etc etc., but the final result is unpredictable.

Great post!

Soon followed by 23 Minutes in Hell from a competing publisher.

There are exceptions to every rule, of course. And not to pick on Kristin in any way, but I always sort of hate it when someone picks one example of a book making it and saying, see, you don't really need in-house support (marketing money). Because, for the most part that isn't true. Lots of books that don't sell in hardcover don't GET a paperback version released at all, so you can't count on further sales.

No, a big advances don't necessarily equal best-seller status. But, at least your book is on the radar as far as people knowing about its existence. Ally Carter's books didn't explode onto the scene, but she had the advantage of being a lead title and they stuck with her until the books started taking off. That is not true with non-lead title books.

Debut YA authors on the NYT best seller list are there not because people love thier product (they haven't read the book to know it) but from a publisher's push.

Not knowing of a book's existence IS a sure fire way to NOT get sales.

A paltry advance, a publicity person at the publishers that will not return your emails, even though she said she'd "get to you later" and you know, it's way past "later," no ARCs of your book available at the Expo or ALA, and no one bothering to follow up on the quotes you've gotten for your own book (because they didn't bother to get any themselves) WILL result in the author never wanting to work with that editor or publisher again.

Peter Cooper, thank you for mentioning Harry Potter, a series actually written by a well-deserving author! Who actually struggled up through the nonsense, all by herself. Whose unique voice is easily identifiable from those who rely on ghosts or a team to do her work for her. Then we come to the man of the hour Dan Brown, will the real DB step forward?
Here's a clue America: when your own daughter has a greater facility with the English language by reading Harry Potter, than you do via Dan Brown and the romance novels, something needs to change. The huge advances form part of a larger pattern of oppression aimed at the American mind; we writers ape "what works" i.e "what pays" it's a horrid arrangement leading to the death of books. Then, no one gets paid for this any more.

This happened to me. Hardcover, low six-figure advance, good marketing push, co-op, etc. The book tanked. Readers just didn't like it that much.

Which really, really sucks. I had every chance in the world, and my writing just didn't take wing. Still, the failure of my big-advance book was much better for me than the failure of the novel for which I got a *small* advance. At least I had the comfort of the money.

I find this post very interesting, Kristin, especially in light of what children's book author Editorial Anonymous said on her blog today. She said that authors should step aside and let publishers and their staffs, who know how to sell books, do their jobs when it comes to selecting illustrators (and other things like covers, I presume). But here you are telling us that publishers very often get it wrong. I know you're not responsible for what anyone else says, but can you comment?

I just finished a study of 200 YA books for my dissertation and we found that the size of the advance was one of five factors that could predict the success or failure of a book with up to 80% accuracy.

so, it's not the only factor, but it was a very strong one.

In my opinion, it's not the size of the advance that matters as much as it is the marketing push that is more likely to accompany a larger advance. Yes, there are big-advance books that flop. There are small-advance books that succeed. But I think a big marketing push maximizes a book's audience. If a highly promotoed book flops, well, it no doubt would've flopped even worse without the push. Whereas I suspect there are a few books that, with a little more support, would have found their audiences.

Kristin - has an author ever asked a publisher to reduce the size of her advance and put the extra money toward marketing instead? Is that even possible?

Kerry: Say more! Say much, much more! What size of advance? What're the four other factors?

Tabitha: New authors sometimes ask their agents that, and the agents gently break the news. Your publisher will be happy to give you a smaller advance. They will be happy to apply the excess money in a fungible way to the marketing department, too.

I've always found the publishing business more esoteric than logical. It's part of the fun!

I would add that for some (new) writers getting a huge advance and then not getting the sales to match can mark the end of their writing career, as publishers will be wary of future books. Sales figures are king.

BubbleCow:

That's true, but getting a small advance and then not getting the sales to match can *also* be trouble. Though I see a lot of this 'end of the career' stuff, and I'm not sure what it's based on. There are always other projects, other houses, and other pseudonyms.

Most people, expecially with the bad economy are going to more paperbacks. If you are an author which would you prefere? if the publisher and staff want hardback, how do you know that is the best for you and your book?

I guess I incorrectly thought the purpose of the advance is to give the author some cash so they can afford to pay for publicity--going out to bookstores and public venues where they can brag up their book, hoping to get people to buy the book and spread the word. Am I wrong? Isn't that the purpose of an advance?

Or do publishers handle all publicity while authors bask in the sun in Tahiti, sucking on pineapple-shaped fruit-flavored alcoholic beverages and enjoying the lavish luxuries only published authors can afford due to their phenomenal advances?

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Mechelle:

I can't tell if you're being snarky, but I always play the straight man anyway, so ...

You're wrong. The purpose of the advance is to pay for the mortgage and child care.

The advance is the only money most writers (myself very much included) ever see. That is what we live on. Perhaps if my publisher gave me six figure advances, I'd spend some on promotion; instead, they pay me below the minimum wage. Ten grand for a year's work. So no, I do no spend money on shit that's actually *their* job. In theory, at least, the reason a publisher grosses more from each of your novels sold is because they take care of editorial, production, distribution, and *marketing*.

If they do the first three of those and drop the ball on the fourth, they're crap. Exactly as crappy as if they're great at the latter four and suck at the first.

Obviously, if I had a spare few million lying around, I'd do some marketing. Or if I had a platform of the sort that actually makes a difference.

I guess there are writers who are independently wealthy, or have a spouse with health care and a real income. God knows what they do with their pin money. But that insultingly meager advance is what I -live- on ... and 99% of author-generated publicity is a waste of time and money.

Desperate in Dubuque

It's a strange fate to be faced with that if your first book doesn't earn much for the publisher, it may kill your chances of ever having a second book published. But if you self-publish you have a good excuse for not selling any books.

I like Kindle books. I would rather read from my Kindle than from a traditional book when it comes to reading novels. It's more comfortable. In fact, I'm reading Stephen Kings novella UR right now, which was only published for Kindle books.

I have a Kindle publishers account. I'm wondering if that's the best way to go.

Problem is, then I don't get a professional editor to look at my work for free. I don't get any advertising or marketing. I don't get a place on the B&N New Fiction shelf, and I don't get any advance.

But here's what must be considered--if I won't get any of those things anyway through a traditional publisher, and if as a result, my writing career in traditional publishing is buggered--it may be a fact I have to face, pure and simple.

It may be better to get started now. Surely, one day, Kindle's going to stop letting just anyone be a publisher.

Anyone have any advice?

I remember Moonrat saying a few months ago (and please forgive me, as my memory is fuzzy)how great it would be if authors and publishers could agree on lower advances. The rest of the money typically put toward the advance could go to marketing.

I think this is a great idea.

Sorry if I've misquoted, Moonie!

My understanding is that authors, esp. debut authors, are expected more and more to pay for and do their own marketing and publishing. For years I've been reading in writing books and on lit agent blogs that publishers don't like to put a lot of money into authors they don't know will sell well. It strikes me as only one of the many reasons why traditional publishing is floundering now - they acquire new products to sell, then throw them out there with little to no publicity budget and then wonder why the author didn't earn back her advance.

The novelist MJ Rose made a good case for publishers paying their writers MORE rather than less: http://publishingperspectives.com/?p=4599

Note, she's not arguing for more mindlessly ridiculous advances - she's saying if we have to do our own publicity and promotion, those investments should be subtracted from the advance.

I wonder how well the Kindle - or the Toyota Prius - or the iPod - would be selling today if its owners had just thrown them out there with little advance warning and see if they sank or swam? Why do publishers think books are any different?

I wonder how many great authors never got discovered or nourished not because they weren't published but because the publishers were too cheap and/or lazy to promote their first work properly. Now the author's career is ruined, while a one-trick pony like Dan Brown, whose greatest coup was actually a marketing one (pissing off the Catholic Church which can always be counted on for free publicity) sells millions before his latest book is even out.

And then they ponder whether they should make the move to e-books while their market disappears into the Kindle. I wonder why anyone has *any* faith in the utterly blinded publishing industry anymore...

Publishers don't, at least the publishers I have, push you to do advertising and promo. They won't necessarily do any either, but it's not a given that you HAVE to do anything but write a good book.

But in this day and age you'd be crazy not to do some. Blog tours and sending your book out for review are cheap easy ways to get word out about your book.

Advances are for the most part the only money you'll see on a book, it's an author's paycheck for writing the book, so learn to budget properly, because that may have to last you for a year.

I know authors that spend exorbent amounts of money on promotion and I know authors that don't do much of anything. And personally I haven't seen that much difference between their careers.

I really like what Anonymous had to say above, or actually, I don't like it, but he or she put it very well. I think it's true.

Combine that with what Vivi says and you get a good picture of what to expect. But if I have to do the selling--the selling, for god's sake--of my book, what pray tell is the publisher for? The printing? The distribution? If the editors are too busy to edit, and the marketing is too expensive, then all that's left is the printing and distribution. But distribution is pointless if it means one copy spine out on the shelf of a Barns and Noble store. Distribution is pointless without marketing.

You know, I want a big fat advance. And I won't spend a dime of it promoting my book--that's the publisher's job. I say that because I know that just like Vivi said, I can spend it all or not spend it at all and it hardly makes a difference. I can't get B&N to put my book on a display by the front door.

I can live with that. I can live with writing a book and being happy if only a hundred people read it. Fiction may be going the way of poetry, and that's okay with me. Good poetry is something I'll read anytime and anywhere I can find it. Same with good fiction.

Of course, try to find it--that's the problem. If the mainstream publishers won't put it out, then I have to rely on the authors publishing it in some way that I can get it. Right now, that's Kindle. In fact, as soon as I post this, I'm going to Amazon to see if any new ghost stories have been published. Unlike a B&N brick-and-mortar store, I can search Kindle Books that way, and if I find one, I’ll have it for less than ten bucks and in less than a minute on a device that’s easier to read than a print book.

By the way, what's a blog tour?

Honestly, it strikes me that the reason publishers can get away with making authors do their own marketing is that the "self-publishing" revolution is quickly convincing authors that it's a privilege to be published, rather than a business deal in which the writer makes a sale to the publisher, and the publisher buys it because it thinks it can make more than it spends by doing its work--which is producing and marketing the book. Yes, the writer needs to be willing to be marketed along with the book--tours, appearances, etc--but booking those things is not the job of the author, and shouldn't be. But I can hardly blame traditional publishers for thinking that, if PublishAmerica et al can dupe writers into actually paying them to acquire a product, then it's hardly unreasonable to assume that more publishers' jobs can be fobbed off on writers as well.

Now, I'm not saying that writers shouldn't take an active interest in their sales and do things like blog and speak at local events and so on. But advances... yeah, that's called "what you get paid for the book." You use them for the same things you use a normal paycheck for. I am known to occasionally purchase things I need for work out of my paycheck, but certainly, it's more expected that it will be spent on my light bill!

This is all good to know. Congrats, Kristin, on the royalties check!

Gordon, here's a great explanation of blog tours: http://yodiwan.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/whats-a-book-blog-tour/

While I would never, of course, ask how much you or any agent personally makes, this raises so many questions to me about how agents make a living. I took a guess and said ok, a healthy five figure advance might be 25k. I think I'm guessing high. If an agent makes their 15%, how much goes to their agency? How many successful clients do you have to have to actually make a living and what in the world do you do when you're just starting out? That has always seemed like so little money to me! Authors so frequently have day jobs, and yes it's a pain (especially if you're trying to meet deadlines as well!) but this IS your day job. How does that work? I'd love to know more about it, given hypothetical numbers and circumstances of course.

You know what? I just started writing a couple of years ago but I honestly have never wondered how much money my MS would make. I mean, of course my mind sometimes drifts to it but I have to remind myself why I started writing in the first place. It's what I love to do. If I start thinking about the money I could make, that's when it becomes a job. And, to me, writing isn't work. It's fun. It's my escape from work.

I've done a lot of research about the publishing industry but one thing I never delve into is money. I want to get published so I can see a kid walking out of Barnes and Noble with my book in his hand. Not so I can walk out of an agency with a check in mine.

Anyway, sorry for the ramblings.

I would like to say the exact perfect thing here, that makes Kristin take notice of what a good little boy I am and become my agent: then, together (music, harps here, perhaps a sprinkling of flute) we will get us a great big advance and healty royalty from a bi publishing house.
I'll go live in the Hamptons, and, and...(wakes up)Damnit!Back to self publishing on the iternet
www.mybladderisfull.blogspot.com

Thanks for the link, Kate.

And I've wondered that myself, about how agents make a living. I mean obviously, they sell rights to publishers and studios, whatever. But the big names already have agents, and there are a lot of big names, but not that many.

You know, my wife is an artist. Down here there are three art galleries, they're owned by rich people who have nothing better to do with their time and want to convince everyone they are capable of appreciating "good" art. I get a feeling agents are much the same way, especially the ones in New York: otherwise rich, but needing something to do other than shop. After all, what good is wealth if you can't make yourself powerful with it. And what greater power is there than to set yourself up as a gatekeeper to the publishing world. I mean, a smooch on the buttocks is a smooch on the buttocks.

I figure it's the same thing with agents as it is with art dealers. Fortunately, my wife doesn't want to part with any of her paintings, so we're spared the chore of kissing the butt of a rich person who has nothing better to do than open an art gallery for the sake of ego.

Gordon:

Every agent I know, with one exception who reps a huge estate and is worth many millions, is very much a worker bee. They make money like this: 15% of 100 clients.

Maybe 30 of those clients sell a project in any given year, for an average (including royalties of previous stuff, foreign sales, sub-rights, whatever) of what? $20,000? That's three grand to the agent, times thirty. $90,000. It's not a killing, after expenses, but it's a living. And there's usually a handful of clients who bring the average up significantly..

I went with a press small enough not to pay out advances, so no worries there. I don't really see the point to them. I want to be like that midlist author and just make royalties, steady income. My dream.

1) It might sound like a workable theory -- the publishers paying smaller advances so they can put more on marketing -- but it has absolutely zero relationship to reality. Publishers allocate marketing dollars in direct proportion to the amount they spent on the advance. There are exceptions to this rule, but they are few and far between. On my last sale, the only reason I held out for as much money as I got was because I wanted the publishing house to really push the book. If I could have guaranteed they'd push it anyway, I'd have taken less than half that much money -- but there is no other guarantee. If you test this theory out yourself, be prepared to spend a couple of months stuffed in the back of a handful of bookstores before you get remaindered, because nobody heard of your book, ever.

2) You, as an author, do have a responsibility to promote your book, but there is the kind of promotion you can do (personal, smaller, often effective on the small scale) and the kind of promotion only your publisher can do (getting you on the front table in B&Ns across the country, pushing for reviews in national publications, etc.) The kind of promotion your publisher can do has INFINITELY more impact than virtually anything an individual author can do on her own. You could do in-bookstore appearances all day, every day, for a year and not move as many books as you would just by having a stand-up display in national bookstores. You have to commit to doing what you can do, but you would be a fool to ignore the greater capabilities of the publisher's marketing team.

3) For me, too, writing is more fun than work. But I have just gone full-time as a writer, and let me tell you, it is a LOT better to have your fun be your work. It's wise not to make that a necessity, but why in the world wouldn't you go for it? I promise you, it's worth trying for.

As a published author, I encourage the not-yet-published authors to continue to vow never to spend any of their advance on marketing, or to do any PR themselves.

Makes more room on the shelves for MY book when they get remaindered and disappear into the dust.

Oh, to have my fiction published and have these concerns. Sigh.

Anon @ 1:52--

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

I think I need cigarette.

Lyrics to "In the Gallery" by Dire Straits seem timely here.

"Harry made a bareback rider proud and free upon a horse
And a fine coalminer for the NCB that was
A fallen angel and Jesus on the cross
A skating ballerina you should have seen her do the skater's waltz

Some people have got to paint and draw
Harry had to work in clay and stone
Like the waves coming to the shore
It was in his blood and in his bones
Ignored by all the trendy boys in London and in Leeds
He might as well have been making toys or strings of beads
He could not be in the gallery

And then you get an artist says he doesn't want to paint at all
He takes an empty canvas and sticks it on the wall
The birds of a feather all the phonies and all of the fakes
While the dealers they get together
And they decide who gets the breaks
And who's going to be in the gallery

No lies he wouldn't compromise
No junk no bits of string
And all the lies we subsidise
That just don't mean a thing
I've got to say he passed away in obscurity
And now all the vultures are coming down from the tree
So he's going to be in the gallery"

http://mybladderisfull.blogspot.com

I guess I'm equally baffled by the people who think that the point of an advance is to give authors the money to market their book and the people who think that marketing is all the publisher's job.

There are some kinds of marketing I can't buy with my advance (e.g., coop dollars). There are some kinds of marketing my publisher can't buy with publishing dollars (e.g., my answering e-mails from fans promptly and with care). There are some things we can do equally well, but quite frankly, the burdens are not split evenly.

An advance is an advance against royalties, nothing more, nothing less. It's not given for any reason except to guarantee the author a certain level of royalties. What the author chooses to do with it is her prerogative. If she chooses not to market at all, that's her choice. If she chooses to spend four times her advance on marketing (and yes, I do know people who have done this), that's also her choice. The advance isn't "for" anything.

But in this day and age, if you don't do even a little marketing--at a very minimum, springing for a domain name and a decent design--it's probably not wise. And that's true whether your advance is massive or tiny (and in some cases, may be more true for the tiny).

The advance isn't "for" anything.

That's exactly what most of us are saying in the "it's the publisher's job" camp, since the original question had to do with whether or not the advance was supposed to be "for" marketing. It's not. It's payment, same as any other paycheck. The publisher doesn't have the right to determine what you do with it. You can use it for marketing, or you can use it for groceries or to pay the student loans off. It's yours.

Most of the things a writer can do--such as answering e-mails and so on--aren't things that you particularly spend money on. You also should expect to do appearances at libraries and bookstores in your area gratis... though if you need to fly somewhere for marketing and stay in a hotel, that ought to go on billable hours. I think most of us don't really think of that as marketing because, erm, that's just bragging about the book. ;p

Most of the things that money goes for come from the publisher. On the other hand, if I want to make up handbills and send them out, or pay for a website for myself to pimp a book, then that's my call. But it's my money to make that call with, which is why the answer to the original question is that marketing is the publisher's job. It may well also be the writer's choice, but choice is the operative word, and it has nothing to do with the advance.

Just to clarify for those who haven't yet sold a book, unless you're a lead title, the publisher is not going to:

* Create a website for your book
* Print bookmarks
* Print postcards
* Pay postage
* Create a Facebook page
* Create an Amazon Author page

So if you're okay with going without a website, bookmarks, or postcards- if you're okay with sending no additional review copies and having no online presence- then yes, you can choose not to spend ANY of your time or advance on marketing.

But even these little things *are* marketing and promotion.

I guess that I'm spoiled (in some respects), then, by my publisher of my nonfiction books. Not to speak of my nice royalty checks. If I were sane and didn't love writing fiction (almost more than life itself), then I would be just focusing on my nonfiction books.

It took me many years to realise - probably only got it sorted five years ago - that I get to keep more or less half what I earn.

Agent gets 10% (we have been together 25 years or more), I pay 40% tax on the remaining 90%.

So I forget things like allowances and expenses and work out that for every £1 in the contract, I reckon on spending or saving 50p.

Once I have realised this, it's easier to calculate what I can afford to do. Of course it's still the case that royalties are incalculable and the only sure income is from advances, particularly in these dire times.

Wow... what a cold dose of reality. Thanks for the facts. :)

On a related topic: Are there any books out there about doing taxes for custom book publishing? (what a concept, a book!!) I'm debating whether I should really consider this a business or just a hobby since I'm just planning on this one book. I'll be incurring a significant number of deductions, but I've seen different opinions about whether the deductions are just expenses vs. "cost of goods sold". I'd appreciate any pointers to resources you know of. I need to get smart on this before the book comes out next Spring/Summer (WinePress Books). Well, sooner if I must claim deductions for this year before I sell my first book.

God Bless,
Jim

Geeze Rachelle, now I have to cancel my order for Puddin’s diamond encrusted doggie penthouse...thanks a lot!

I pick the $50,000 advance. In halves, please!

Good morning, Rachelle.

I have a couple of questions.
Are publishers usually prompt in fulfilling their advance payment obligations?
Do you know if any publishers have been unable to meet their advance payment schedule due to their own cash flow problems?

My cash flow profile from publishing my first book will look like this:
15% agent fees
10% tithe
30% federal and state taxes
10% savings
45% household expenses
00% cruise to Alaska.

Never mind, on the day I sign the contract with the publisher I metamorph from aspiring writer to published author. That will be more than enough.

Be blessed!

Lynnda

So much for Hollywood's portrayal that I can quit my day job and drive my expensive sports car to my expensive lunch to shmooze with a producer who is dying to buy the film rights to my novel. LOL!

One of my "normal" friends asked if I'll be rich when I sell my first book. I laughed and told her not as far as money is concerned.

Thanks for the information and breakdown about advances. I'll file it in the "things to remember when book is sold" file. :-)

And people think authors are rich. Don't we all wish!

Authors are rich, just not in the usual sense of the word in most cases. It's the little secret we keep (shh, don't tell Hollywood!) that keeps us writing. Christian authors have it even better because we know we can't take it with us anyway. However, if we're lucky, our words will endure beyond our earthly lives. And that...is priceless. :)

Wow. Very informative. I wondered how it all worked. Thanks!

in your experience - what is the average advance $ amount? debuts vs others?

Awesome post. It's nice to see it broken down like this.

Shelli, I'll answer your question and others in tomorrow's post.

Looks like a get-rich-slow scheme.

;-)

Writers spend so much time in an imaginary world that sometimes reality bites. Still, since we do actually have to live in reality to some extent, it's best to face it.

It wasn't clear to me whether the agent takes the entire 15% off the first instalment, or takes 15% OF EACH as they are paid.

This is an extremely valuable post for new authors. I would also add that even if you get the big movie deal, that takes significant time as well. I just signed a six figure contract for the film rights to my book, but I won't see the whole amount until two years from now. So if you are looking for Hollywood to save you, like she says, don't quit the job just yet.

The agent gets paid as the author gets paid. 15% of each check.

No questions. Just a pat on the back.

181 entries for the blog contest? You're a good sport. For having the contest in the first place. For reading (seriously) each entry.

If I got a 50K advance I'd be able to quit the part-time job :) May not be able to with the 10K one but who knows...the secretary job I have now is certainly not what I picture myself doing the rest of my life :P

Thanks for the break down--I didn't realize there were so many ways it could be split (halves, thirds, quarters...) I think I like the halves one the best! :)

Thank you Rachelle. The generous 'tips' you provide are so helpful for me to learn how this whole process works. Every post teaches me something I NEED to know.

While you guys are making out your pie charts, you might want to consider how much of that advance you are going to put back into you writing. Even driving down to the local Barnes and Nobel to turn your books face out takes money. There’s also expenses like websites, stock photos, software, book signings and promotional items. Much of it is tax deductable, but it ain’t free. If we are going to do our accounting properly, we should charge these things to the project before we even consider taking out such things as savings and household expenses.

Boy, am I glad I enjoy my day job!!!!!

Jim Marr,

You might want to look at http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch01.html. It is the IRS' explanation. In addition to the cost of goods sold section, one other thing to take notice of is the stuff about not-for-profit activities and presumption of profit. The IRS expects you to make a profit in 3 out of 5 years if you are deducting expenses.

I wasn't able to quit my day job but God did allow me to shift it. I used to work in ministry (which requires the normal 27 hr day) and barely had time to sign my time card. I asked God to open a door for me to be able to write and still pay my bills. I now manage a self-storage facility for a businessman that goes to my church.
It's not all skittles and sunshine, but I sent my first query out last week.
I tell people that if it's possible for them NOT to write, then they should just lay it down and enjoy life. For those of us who must write, God will make a way. I have a quote posted in my office that says, "There's nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and open a vein." (Walter Wellesley 'Red' Smith).
Love your blog, Rachelle. Thanks for all your help.

Very insightful post. Obviously I have no illusions of quitting my day job (please note this for someone from my job who may google my name and find this comment... lol!) BUT... should my husband do the unthinkable and get a full-time job himself (that pays decent) AND I get published... then all bets are off. But... I'm not polishing my resignation letter yet, let's just put it that way!

For the guy with the tax question... as a semi-tax geek myself, a simple note that if you are publishing your book... what you make will be INCOME to you regardless and reportable to the IRS, so you definitely want to claim your expenses against it to lessen your taxes! You don't have to create a "business." If you are making money on the side... whether from writing a book or other "hobbies", you're in essence a "sole-proprietor" so get ready to meet Uncle Sam the following April.

I'd highly, highly suggest letting a tax professional help you along in your taxes to keep you out of trouble and to make sure you don't overpay your Uncle too.

Sorry... my numbers geekness got the best of me. Is it weird that I actually find figuring out taxes enjoyable? (no need to respond to that... I already know the answer!)

My third book will come out this January. While I've been able to reduce to working part time, I still haven't been able to make the leap to writing full time. As Timothy mentioned in addition to paying out your agent and taxes, there can be a fair bit of expenses. Some people I know spend a significant amount of their advances on marketing. The other issue I warn people about is that publishers can be slow. You sell your book, then it can be a couple months until they get a contract to you. You sign and then it can be another month or so until they send the check. If you need money on a regular schedule this can be a challenge.

The other factor that can hopefully move you into working full time as a writer is your back list. If a reader likes your current work they will go back (hopefully) and purchase those books.

Writing is not a get rich quick plan- but I'll admit seeing your book on the shelf is PRICELESS.

Isn't the author supposed to use at least some of the advance to pay for promotion? How does that work?

I am curious about the advance Dan Brown got and in what time span he would receive for the 5 million copies of The Lost Symbol?

When I decided to go into writing a decade ago, this is exactly why I chose freelancing over writing a book. It's easier to sell, the pay comes in faster, and the ability to actually make a living at it doesn't hinge on a single publication during a twelve-month period. (Although I would still love to sell a book to a publisher.)

That being said, I took a part-time contract position recently doing PR, Marketing and Sales. It pays far better, and I've found I'm pretty good at it. But the job satisfaction? Not nearly as much - no ownership of the finished product, no excitement of creating an idea, convincing someone else that it is worthwhile, and then scoring real cash to bring that idea to reality. Now the effort of creating a marketing plan, crafting a good PR strategy, keeping up with social networking - it's all for someone else's ideas.

Day jobs may pay the bills faster. But they can also leave the soul poorer in the process.

What is the typical advance range for an unpublished author's first novel? What factors play the biggest part in determining that advance? Lance

I did quit the day job, setting aside much of last year's pay. I'd been a stay-at-home mom for six years and had returned to teaching for two.

My income has always been supplementary, though walking away from a steady salary has forced us to be financially creative. Still, I am thrilled I decided to do this.

I like to think of myself as an author in residence!

Oh sweet mystery of life!! I'm so glad I found this. Not that I'm anywhere near being published, but this is one of those questions I've always wondered about but nobody ever seems to want to talk about. Thank you for your dose of brutal reality.

Thank you, Rachelle. I really need things like this to be spelled out the way you presented it. Copy and paste, here I come.

Hi Rachelle! Very objective and educating this post. Thank you for that!
Ah, a late happy birthday to you. I wish you a fantastic year for you, with gret success and happiness. :-)

Another problem: the release of our advance payments is triggered by actions on the part of our editors as well as ourselves. If your editor gets things done very, very slowly or backburners you for a few months/years your money isn't going to be coming in when you thought it would.

And if the publisher pushes your publication date back a year or two, that pushes your final payment back a year or two as well.

Fabulous nuts and bolts post. Thank you for the wake up call to reality.

I can think of few things more intimidating and creativity-crushing than having a best selling first book. Unless it is to sell the second on spec. *shudder.*

I really do feel sorry for authors in that situation. Their very success not only puts tremendous pressure on them, but also draws out the schedenfreuders who delight in tearing down anyone with commercial success.

Well, yes, as an unpublished author, the idea of a sale like that boggles the mind.

From my standpoint, anything that isn't a flat out rejection is something to get excited about.

Yes, I'd love to get an agent. Yes, I'd love to sell a book. But the reality is, none of my stories are publishable yet, so my work isn't done.

And even when it is done, there will be more revisions if I do sell it. And if I sell it, I'll have to worry about the cover, the marketing, the reviews, the sales, and so on.

If a miracle happens and the book sells well, that's still no guarantee the next book will be received as well.

I have author friends who have sold multiple books, many of them best sellers, and yet they still go through the same stress I experience, it's just about different things.

The fact of the matter is, it never gets easier. Writing is hard work, and we are lucky if we succeed. I'm not being negative, but, clearly, there are no guarantees.

That hasn't stopped any of us from writing yet -- we're obviously all masochists at heart.

I read an article yesterday which stated that she DID have a full manuscript finished and that's what led to the high advance.

Do you know how many copies her first novel sold? I wonder what level of sales would lead to an advance that high. And if the book will ever turn a profit or eventually earn out at that level.

I would do it the same way if I ever have such an awesome selling book. :D

That is such a sweet deal for her.

I'm not so great when the pressure is on. At least not yet. I think I will be, someday, when I'm a better writer than I am now.

~Meg

I'm actually heartened to hear that you can do it that way. I was under the impression that after you'd had a successful sale, it was all partials and advance contracts. I don't handle that kind of pressure well, and the thought of having a contract (having to write an outline for a book I haven't written yet? then having to follow it??) makes me want to hide under the bed. It's great to know that the option of writing and then submitting is still there even when you're no longer a newbie.

Angie

That's a big, fat chunk of change! Good for her. Apparently, there is still money to be spent. I wonder if an advance that big keeps new writers from getting sold. After all, there are only so many dollars to go around... (Great story about the 2003 BEA - You may want to put that galley of The Time Traveler up on E-Bay!!)

I actually find this heartening. (And I'm reserving The Time Traveler's Wife at the library.)

The idea of on-spec contracts makes my stomach churn. I don't like the thought. I've seen the results of hasty writing and editing in the books of authors I like, and it ain't pretty!

The size of her contract is also heartening. People are still making money, and a lot of it.

I'm glad you're doing better!

Would be very interesting to know if she turned down a 2-book contract initially.
Freudian Slip Dept: "commiserate" or "commensurate"? For the unsold, perhaps the former.

I love "The Time Traveler's Wife", it is one of my favorite books.

Good for Audrey, hearing things like this helps reaffirm that not only are people still reading, but Publishers are taking notice :-)

Time Traveler's Wife was one of the most stupendous books I've read in recent years. I have no idea how well it sold and, well, don't really care: in my opinion she deserved an advance like that just for karmic reasons. I'd pay an author who could write TTW at least that much just for continuing to write at all!

In all honesty, she can afford to wait and take all the time she needs to write her sophmore effort because she can AFFORD to.

If you have royalties like that coming in, well, yeah, you don't have to force another book out of yourself because your bills are paid for awhile. You could go on vacation, revive, take time and enjoy life a little, and come back to your computer when you have that next big idea hit you, and even then take your time with it.

Then the "next book" becomes even more of an "event," because it's hyped because of the "time it took to write it." The author of Cold Mountain did the same thing (not saying that's wrong.)

It's not that other authors don't have that same restraint, it's that they can't afford to. Their bills are not going to wait six years to be paid.

Boring

Anon 7:48

This is something Kristin always schools her authors about. (And I, never the good student, have had to learn the hard way!) You should NEVER be depending on an advance to pay your bills until you are extremely well established and have a ton of cash in the bank. There are so many things that can go wrong and if you and you and your family are depending on that next royalty check or manuscript delivery check, you end up in serious financial straights--especially in this economy.

For example, what if the book you turn in isn't accepted by your publisher? You have to go back to the drawing board for another six months to redo it. No check until it's passed in. And if you were depending on that check for rent or mortgage -well, you're doomed.

Or what if you're expecting a royalty check and the publisher doesn't add in that big foreign sale you were counting on cause the publisher overseas didn't pay? Again, you're in trouble if you're depending on that money to buy food.

Also, the longer I'm in this business the more I realize that selling on partial (except in the case of a series) can have you end up short-changing yourself in the long run. This is especially true in traditional children's publishing. They usually offer better advances if they can see the entire manuscript. Not to mention, the rush and pressure of having to deliver on deadline can seriously screw with your finished product and hurt you in the long run for future book deals.

I hear so many authors (esp in romance) say "OMG I have to write this book in 2 weeks!" I mean, how good can a book really be if it's written in 2 weeks?

Selling books is exciting and fun. And the temptation for that quick sale - that writer's high and promise of profits, is usually too enticing for an author to resist. But it definitely, in my opinion, can hurt the product.

For me, my next book (which will be my 14th - it's taken me a while to learn this lesson!) will definitely be a full before I put it out there for sale.

MARI

Angie,

Watch out for those outline requests. I don't yet have an agent, but one I submitted to wanted to see the outlines for books two and three in the series I'm writing at the same time she considered representing book one. I've been carrying this series in my head for a long time, now, and know exactly where it's going, but writing those two additional outlines wasn't easy. I will say, though, that having them on paper now, is wonderful. It is making the actual writing of book two infinitely easier than book one. And no, I don't expect to stick to it exactly, but I think it will be close.

I can certainly see that writing an outline for an unwritten book that ISN'T part of a series would be rather terrifying, though.

Fascinating post -- both because I loved THE TIME TRAVELER'S WIFE and was watching the news of the auction with a lot of interest, but also because of the writing on proposal/ writing a full novel to sell discussion.

Personally, I've now sold two books on synopsis and two completed, and there are pros and cons to both, I think. There's an amazing amount of security in knowing what you're working on is already sold and you don't have to worry about its fate. However, there are also the odious deadline and expectations already in place. The first book I wrote to synopsis, BALLAD, I was terrified would read worse than the book that took me several years to write . . . but I think it's stronger.

I do think it's possible to write well (and relatively stress free) on a partial sale, but it requires a really flexible editor and motivated author. Thank goodness for editors who trust me enough to let me toss out early synopses and go in an entirely different route than I had originally thought.

On the other hand, however, I think that a book that simmers in an excellent author's head for several years has a certain depth to it that is hard to achieve in a four-month draft. It's sort of like a stew or a wine -- the maturing and blending of flavors just seems to do well with time. I have an uncontracted standalone now that I've been working on for a year in between contracted projects, and *I* can see the difference in it. It will be interesting to see if readers can too.

If I could sell a book for that much, not only could I move out of my parents house and buy myself one, but I could also pay for my education and pay off the house my parents just built. Wouldn't that be wonderful? :D

Kristin - just a thought too, if you're reading these -- you might talk (again, I'm pretty sure you've talked about this at some point) about the staggering of advance payments that happens, particularly with an advance of this size. It's not quite like just having a giant check for 4.8 million signed over to you . . .

I'm delurking to say, hey, thanks for posting about this. It does sound like a really smart approach, and I'd never considered it that way before. I loved The Time Traveler's Wife, so this also gives me something to look forward to. Yay!

Hi Kristin, I'm so glad to hear that you are starting to feel better! I found a great article a month or two ago in New York Magazine that discusses the affect that huge advances tend to have on the publisher, et al. It's a little lengthy, but has great info! Here's the link: http://www.nymag.com/news/media/50279

Even though the article raps publishers on the knuckles a bit, I still say congrats to Audrey!

I loved the Time Travelers Wife. And yeah, I'd love to earn that kind of money. So while I'm shopping my first novel, I'm working on my second. And third. And hopefully I won't have any sophomore slump...

Until I read this post, I had no idea how much the idea of being on a publishing treadmill was intimidating me. Thank you for this. It's good to know that there is a different path to follow than the one I'm always hearing about.

Also, this reminds me of an Elizabeth Gilbert video that's making the rounds, discussing genius and the huge pressures authors feel when their first work was a breakout success:

http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html

All I can say is if she really sold her second book for that much money, she must deserve it.
(a best seller on the 1st book - wow!)

The sophmore novel, regardless of how well the first one did, puts pressure on the author. Was the first sale a fluke? Am I really any good? I have to do better this time around.

Yeah, so she is smart or she did succumb to the pressure and disappeared off the face of the Earth to write the second book.

Lisa -- my issue with it is that I don't outline. [wry smile] I never have, or rather, never have successfully. Even at uni, when I was writing huge research papers with triple-digit footnotes, I never outlined. The one time I decided to do it "right" and fully outline a novel, I lost the story; it's like so much energy went into the outline that when I sat down to actually write, there was nothing left. :/ I've been a pretty dedicated pantser ever since.

If I can write the book first, they can have as detailed an outline as they want. :)

Angie

I have a Google alert for Audrey's name and have been watching the response to the news of the sale, and since this particular thread seems to be from a thoughtful group of writers, I thought I’d take a chance and weigh in.

First, as Audrey's agent, I very much fought against the news of the sale coming out. It seemed likely to stir resentment, and I already expected reviewers to approach the book with knives drawn before any leak of the money involved. For instance, since the NYT never reviewed THE TIME TRAVELER'S WIFE in any way, shape, or form, how could they say positive things about the new book and not look kind of foolish? In my submission letter, I specifically mentioned this likelihood and begged editors not to discuss the potential auction – or eventual sale price – with anyone.

Needless to say, word got out. I tried to talk Motoko Rich out of doing a piece, but the leaks were so broad that there was really no chance. Thus my somewhat exasperated comments in the article, once I realized the piece would run whether I participated or not.

Another reason to keep the news quiet was precisely because of the inevitable Charles Frazier comparison. It's a hell of a lot more than a nuance that, unlike him, we sold a completed novel, a brilliant book that is a step forward for Audrey as a writer. It's weird, inventive, original, singular, and not necessarily as commercial as the first book, but she handled the second novel challenge by pushing herself to grow as a writer, with new parameters (more characters, different setting, different thematic preoccupations), none of which had anything to do with sales. All she could control (as I noted in the article) was the actual writing, not how people responded to it. So she focused on that and wrote a truly remarkable novel.

That the industry responded so positively isn't just because of her track record; people genuinely loved the book. A few editors told me, "this is so much better than TTW!" That irritated me, because I think TTW is a great book, but I got the point: editors recognized that she had grown as a writer. So, combine a great book with a great track record, and you have the closest thing to a sure thing in a very uncertain market, and publishers were eager to pay handsomely.

The key takeaway here is simple: write the best book you can and then sell it. Arguments that "she could take her time to write her second book because the mortgage was covered by her success" are way off the mark. She didn't sign a two book deal with the first or second novel because she knew how hard it is to write a good book and she didn't want the pressure of a deadline hanging over her. (It’s hard to herd cats on a schedule.) Maybe if you're a genre writer, it’s possible, perhaps even necessary, but otherwise, keep your day job and write a great book and sell it when it's done. In Audrey's case, she kept her day job for years after publication of TTW; she was careful to live in a way that put the ability to do her work her way, on her schedule, before any other material needs. She protected her priorities. That's discipline, and she had been practicing it on modest means as a visual artist for decades before she became a writer. It's a very smart way of approaching the creative life, uncomfortable though those limitations can be at times.

I hope this is useful information. All best wishes to the writers here doing the best books they can.

Joe Regal

OOOO... I'm so glad she's written another book. I LOVED TTW.

Such a complicated and well crafted book and even if she could've sold a sophomore book on proposal, and whipped it out a year or two after TTW it would almost be guaranteed to disappoint, I think.

I agree she was smart to take her time. Really hoping the new one lives up to TTW. The huge advance is giving me hope that someone thinks it will.

Oh, I hadn't read Joe Regal's comment when I posted.

Now I am REALLY excited about her new book. Can't wait.

Huge congrats to her and to Joe.

Wow that's a huge advance.

I'm with Angie here. Many agents have made it sound like if your first novel sells, and especially if it does well at all, the publishers will want you to hurry along with the next book so it can get out there too. (This would make sense for series, obviously, but it often sounds like this is the scenario for standalone novels, too.) They almost make it sound like the only way to get around that kind of pressure is to be established in your career already--although, thinking about it, with the amount TTW sold, she may have earned that status. It's nice to know you won't always have to rush the second novel.

Kristin,

People often forget that if the news reaches you, it's because the newspaper benefits from it. And if the news hits the newspaper, it's because the newsmakers benefit.

There's always an agenda, and this case it's probably just to get some publicity because of the number (it's getting a lot of publicity, so that's working), to get the name of the novel into people's subconscious, and to remind people of the author and how much they liked The Time Traveler's Wife.

Now, for most people, the release of any one piece news also benefits them -- providing talking points, content generation, or a reminder of something important or valued -- so the system's working. But it can't hurt to remember that information rarely leaks on its own.

What I think is nutty is that the .8 is almost all the Agent's money. 15% of 4.8 mil is $720k. Not so bad, and you still have the rest of the year!

Granted, agents have rent and staff, but still, the agent alone earned in one auction what I would earn in 27 years at my current pay rate. I can work 'til I'm 60, and he made more in this one transaction. That is frickin' crazy! ( I got to stop thinking like a poor person!)

The author will only get to keep about $2.4 mil - Uncle Sam gets the rest. Still, quite respectable. If I took home that much, at 5% return, I could live off the interest at the rate of $120k/year. Again, SO not shabby!

I offer a heartfelt congratulations to both author and agent. Hopefully, I'll get something half so nice one day.

Jenna -- it's a lot, yes, but 15% is 15%, and if you go in knowing that's your agent's fee, then there you go. And if I had someone offer me something in the seven figure range, I'd darned well want a really good agent to go over the contracts and make sure everything's cool. I think the more money you're making, the more necessary an agent would be (to my own peace of mind if nothing else) and therefore the more they deserve to share in that big payday.

And another way of looking at it is that the occasional big hit, or the hope of one, is what keeps agents going, doing (I'm assuming) about the same amount of actual work, in hours, for some writer whose advance is only $5K and never earns out. When I get to the point of needing an agent (I'm with a small press right now and don't) I figure my starting checks are a lot more likely to be in the $5K range than the $4.8mil range. [wry smile] If the hope of making three-quarters of a mil some day on one deal is keeping the agent perky and enthused about tiny little deals like mine, that's cool with me. :D

Angie

Jenna -- also, keep in mind that an advance like that is NOT a lump sum. Advances are generally broken down into pieces that are doled out when certain milestones in the book's "life" are reached: part on signing, part when the ms is edited, part when the book goes to publication, etc. So in all likelihood, that agent is not going to be making $720,000 in a year.

Also, as someone who has an agent who took her book to auction, I have to say that I have never, ever resented the 15% my agent takes, because without her, I would a) just not have gotten the same kind of deal, b) have to spend much of my day dealing with the business side of publishing, and c) have to have both a business and editorial relationship with my editors. She more than earns her 15% of my income and I can imagine that the business concerns that loom in a deal of this size and to someone as well known as Audrey are significantly larger. You'll notice that her agent appeared here to set the record straight about the deal -- that's part of his work day. A good agent is worth every bit of his/ her 15%.

I just had to pop back in here and say that!

" You should NEVER be depending on an advance to pay your bills until you are extremely well established and have a ton of cash in the bank. There are so many things that can go wrong and if you and you and your family are depending on that next royalty check or manuscript delivery check, you end up in serious financial straights--especially in this economy."

The story of my life! And then I found I couldn't write Novel Number Four the way my editor/aquisitions team wanted it. The previous three novels never earned out their advances and so, when I rebelled and wrote what I WANTED to write instead I got a resounding rejection.
The fall was hard. I wrote three follow-up novels -- all of which I believe are better than the first three -- but once you've had your shot you are judged a failure in the industry and it's harder than ever to climb that mountain again. Back then, my agent told me "either you;re big or you're nothing" and I didn't believe her; I tried the maverick thing and it didn't work.
I've been in the financial doldrums for five years now; but for some insane reason I just keep writing, keep trying. I;ve learned formmy mistakes and I believe I've become a better writer.
Congratulations to Audrey; I haven't read TTW but will do so now!

It's worth pointing out that the problem includes huge advances to celebrity writers.

Considering the state of the economy and dire predictions for the next 18 months, perhaps the geniuses that run the industry should take off their rose colored glasses, put away their abacuses and read the writing on the wall - or at least on the internet. $7 million could fund a lot of great authors who actually have something to say.

I'm pretty sure I figured out the problem when I watched the audiences in a number of the political rallies during the recent election. Just sayin' we live in a market driven economy...

Wouldn't it be cool if suddenly being ignorant and superficial wasn't cool?

Ugh! I kid the...stupid people ;)

Wait--WAIT--you mean you don't think Lauren Conrad got that YA three book deal because she's actually a sharp, insightful, talented writer?

Blech. Don't get me started. I hope whoever the celebrity is at least pays their ghostwriter well.

How many books do they have to sell for this to break even?

What's wrong with negotiating a higher percentage? These high advance numbers are so discouraging. I mean, will Border's only carry two books in the spring?

Border's employee: "Over here, in the YA section, you'll find Jerry Seinfeld's new book. And if you have any problem locating the Jerry Seinfeld book, you can check the Inspirational and Self Healing section, the non-fiction section, and the Thriller section. If you still have any problems..."

Amen, Sister.

But don't they sell a lot of books? Doesn't that generate money for small advances on our debut novels?

Sarah who?

Seriously, I've never heard of half these so-called celebrities.

Chris, to make this math as easy as possible, let's pretend the royalties are a flat 15% and cut out any escalator. Let's also assume the book is $24.95. Seems fair, right?

That means Jerry Seinfeld will earn back $3.74 toward his advance with each copy purchased by a consumer. That means that for his advance to earn out, he'd have to sell 1,871,658 copies of his book in the first year for the advance to earn out. (None of this takes into account marketing expenses etc which will be necessary to get enough attention.)

Jerry Seinfeld might be popular. But is he THAT popular?

But who knows. To put this in perspective, Jessica Seinfeld's cookbook has sold around a million copies.

But seriously. Why not make that happen in royalties?

ok ok. i am hearing the arguments. but lay off lauren conrad. she's my guilty pleasure (hence the anonymous post)...

/she says sarcastically

//sort of

So Sarah Silverman's show gets moved around (or cancelled?) because she's NOT FUNNY, AT ALL, but gets 2.5 mil for a book no one cares about?

Man, I gotta get famous.

The bigger problem is that someone has made a business decision that the public will buy enough of Seinfeld's book to make up the advance and cut a profit. If it works, great, if it doesn't, well, that's when it really hurts all the other writers out there.

I understand that it is a business decision, but perhaps frenzied auctions are not a smart way for book publishing to work out. Even Hollywood doesn't work in this manner. I just don't understand this business model. Thrown in the 100% return policy - an publishing is a financial analysts nightmare.

You know every time I hear about these massive advances, I always naively hoped that the publisher was still making a profit.

It just seemed silly from a business perspective to commit the same failed practice over and over again.

However, I think if we're to be real, I don't know too many people, celebrity or not, who would turn down a $7 million advance.

Man this is infuriating. Thanks for breaking down the numbers too, Moonrat. The whole advance/earning it back thing is beyond me right now.

I'm not sure that any human endeavour is worth this amount of money, particularly when, as a species, we're so useless at helping one another out.

And particularly when all too many writers have to set aside valuable time (which ought to be spent refining their skills) leading a pretend life.

Hopefully, the next few years will see this 80s-spawned fiscal greed backed into the same corner as dropping litter in public places and murdering babies.

I'm up there on a star for that one.

And alas, this nonsense is now seriously embedded in the children's book field, too.

I may have sold millions of copies of my books, but have never commanded even a 100th of the D List celebrity advances.

Gotta find me some tassels and practice my singing/dancing chops. After I make it big on my Virgin Grandma tour, I might be able to get me a real advance on my next book.

--Jane Yolen

I suppose the celebs are accustomed to silly money, though.

I am much more sympathetic to giving Seinfeld 7 million dollars in advance than I am to blowing 2.5 million dollars on Silverman. I don't know anyone who would buy her book, but I will be surprised if Jerry doesn't earn his advance and then some. That's assuming his book isn't about stoicism and/or finding inner peace.

I'm not sure that any human endeavour is worth this amount of money, particularly when, as a species, we're so useless at helping one another out.

Amen.

Here in the UK celebrity books sell. But it has taken a big hit lately as people are getting a bit tired of it all - that and misery stories, as told by the poor celebs...seriously, what life has Scarlett Johannsen lead thus far that she can get her biography written?

But honestly, I don't think, unless you are Nelson Mandela that a £7m advance for your story is actually worth it...seriously folks, who has that much good stuff stashed away that you think people would want to read it? Mr. H Clinton? George Dubya? The mind boggles. These figures are ridiculous!

And Jane (Yolen), I'll be right there in the front row rocking to your Virgin Grandma tour as you truly do rock. We are inflicted with the Spice Girls and other pointless boy and girl bands who think they can write - the gods save me - they can't even get their lyrics to be spelled properly!

I wouldn't complain if it was my advance.

My feelings on obscene amounts of money going to celebrities -- especially celebrities like Seinfeld who have a collection of Porsches parked in a carpeted garage-- are pretty well known among my readers. (Short version: they shouldn't have that much money).

Those feelings are only stronger when I realize that the money they're getting is on top of the money they've already gotten, and that the money they're getting could be used to pay for 3, 4, 10 other books that I'd rather see published.

But that's the key point: Books I, ME, would rather see published, not what EVERYONE ELSE thinks should be published. Someone's buying these books sell so well that the publishers feel its a safe bet to advance this money, and they generally do sell very well.

So I try not to judge the quality of the books based on the name of the author, and I just have to live with the fact that being famous opens a lot of doors and money generates money.

I wish he'd give some more of it away, though.

I used to work contracts for a major record company, and a friend of mine works them for MTV, and the payouts that these people get are ridiculous. Some are contractually guaranteed thousands upon thousands of dollars just to stand in front of a camera. Seinfeld would probably get that $7 million for gathering a crowd around him and passing gas. Celebrities no doubt feel entitled to such disproportionately large sums for even the most menial of tasks – how much more so for an entire book (even if it was ghost written?)

The issue isn't just idiotic editors willing to blow millions that could otherwise go to keeping a few more starving writers out of the dole queue for another month, it's also an issue of how overpaid celebrities are in general, and how much we as a society tolerate and even celebrate it. This, I think, is what needs to change.

Granted, when I figure out the solution to this problem, I'll probably only be a few paces away from unlocking the secrets of cold fusion...

JaneYolen: Ouch. What the hey...if you ain't cashing in what hope is there for the rest of us? You might want to give your agent a nudge on renegotiating your next book deal. If you're producing they should be compensating.

And no wonder the publishing industry is in the crapper. Those kinds of advances defy logic and certainly fiscal good sense.

Arrgghh. And they wonder why their margins are shrinking...and I'm not talking book page format.

Trying to put a positive spin on this practice...

The best I can come up with is that such huge advances keep books in general in the public's consciousness; that they make their beneficiaries seem as "important" as top-grossing Hollywood stars. And thus do we all benefit -- thus are we all ennobled.

Or some such sh!t. :)

I second (or third) the AMEN.

This is absolutely senseless. Hey publishing companies, add this to your list of why your profits are low.

Celebrity or not, why give a 7 million advance if the publishing house thinks it's going to sell that well? Let it sell and then the author gets his/her share. I'm all for capping advances. As a new writer who is likely to get 0 to a tiny advance (if I'm ever published), I'm willing to take it to get my foot in the door.

Really? Never? I pretty much assume that the company laying down that kind of money has justified it somehow, to someone...and this is Seinfeld we're talking about. Silverman, I wouldn't have made that bet, but somebody must have.

I want to puke every time I hear about huge advances for celebrity books. Most of them are not that interesting. I still think the reason Clinton got that massive deal was because everyone hoped he would be sharing his adventures in dicktation.

Ugh, just, ugh. Pick up the National Enquirer and save yourself $30 for the celebrity drivel.

It pisses me off. What a waste of money that, as you say, could be put into so many other things to help publishing out.

It's figures like this that remind me developing a coke problem or sleeping with a Senator might be the true road to getting fiction published.

Thanks World!

Or maybe I should just sleep with my cousin while wearing a bear outfit or shooting moose.

Must ponder new marketing plan.

You can always vote with your wallet. That's why I do...

I hope/pray that publishers realize sooner than later that expending humongous advances (and the marketing to go with book promo, no?) for celeb (aka ghost-written) books doesn't help the bottom line.

That may be the only silver lining in the tanking economy... Peace, Linda

The rich get richer and the poor keeping buying into it. Ugh.

I think the 'savannah hypothesis' might come into play here.

The idea is that our brains haven't evolved to understand TV.. at a subconscious level, we feel like those people are really at our house, talking to us.

SO if you have Jerry Seinfield in your house for 30 min. a week for years, you begin to feel like you know him. And like him. And that he's your friend, and he MUST like you too, since he's always in your living room....

And if your very special friend writes a book, don't you want to go out and buy it? Just to be caring and supportive, if nothing else?

Is it possible the amount of the advances is exaggerated for publicity reasons? Kind of the way print runs are?

It's just hard to fathom an advance that large...

I do vote with my wallet, but it doesn't seem to make any difference!

Wait a minute, I think there's a common error being made here.

You don't need for an author to earn out for a publisher to make money on this. The $7,000,000 investment is a sunk cost but it's your investment in acquiring the book.

Granted, it's not a slam dunk but based on a $25 unit price and standard royalties, discounts and marketing costs, a publisher would have to sell about 750,000 units for the publisher to break even on that advance. That seems in the realm of the possible. in fact, I bet the publisher is counting on selling 1,000,000 copies.

And that's before a paperback release and a fair life as a backlist title.

It's a very high number and higher than I would feel comfortable spending on a book but publishers will spend to have some certainty as well as tentpole titles on their list. If you're going to spend $7,000,000, Jerry Seinfeld is probably one of your best bets (him or Barack...).

What’s worse a big advance that does not earn out or a small advance that earns out but not in a huge way. Is the publisher going to drop you if you do not earn out a big advance? Would they also drop you if your small book was not very profitable?

A big advance that does not earn out means that your publisher may not have made money (NB: your publisher makes money *before* you earn out — even so); a small advance that just barely earns out means your publisher has made money. As a general rule of thumb, it’s better to make money for your publisher than not.

Your first question is independent of your second and third questions. Some publishers are happy to have authors who have smallish but consistent sales; others only want to focus on big hits. Likewise, if a big author has a major flop that doesn’t earn out, they might still not be dropped because there’s the hope the next book sales will revert to form. It all depends on who you are publishing with.

Anonymous, this isn’t an absolute. It depends on the actual numbers involved (what’s a big advance? What’s a very small advance, etc.) and also on the publisher.

Say you get a 100,000 dollar advance, and, for the sake of argument and ease of math, you make $1 royalty per book. You sell 80,000 copies of your book. You haven’t “earned out”, but your publisher is likely extremely happy with that performance. Because of the economics of book publishing, they probably started “making money” over the printing, publicity, “keeping the lights on” cost of making your book a while back.

And that’s assuming your publisher prints as many copies of your book as it takes to earn out. Thre are a lot of variables to consider, such as “sell through” percentages.

Now, say you got a $1000 dollar advance, and sold 4,000 copies of your book. You have “earned out” but you aren’t setting a big publisher on fire with that that amount. You may, however, have made a small publisher whose books usually sell in the 1k range extremely happy.

This is a really common question amongst writers, but there are a lot more variables that go into the Profit and Loss statement than just the advance paid. They could drop you in either scenario that you’ve described, or they could keep you. They could only print a fraction of the number of books it takes for you to earn out, but if you sell through 70% of that fraction, they could be thrilled. Or they could be disappointed, because last time, you sold through 80%.

It’s not an either or.

What Scalzi and Diana said.

There’s no hard and fast answer. It really depends on what kind of publisher, what kind of book. Sometimes a book has gotten amazing reviews and won prizes but not sold very well. The publisher is very likely to stick with such an author.

Or maybe the house just really believes in the author despite bad sales and reviews and etc and their failure to earn out. A writer won’t automatically be dropped for not earning out. Even if they got no where near earning out. As Diana points out you can not earn out but still be making your publisher money.

Phenomenal!

These button just knock my socks off. STUNNING!

so beautiful! I love your desire to attack the mundane, and make it so meticulous and important. It's a great lesson in life, I think!

Buttons ... connecting jewels that we can't live without ... like sisters. :)

I love your buttons! You must have such patience! Thanks again for your comment (answered on my blog) it made me laugh! I think of you now whenever I see James on the telly!

Gorgeous work, Andrea.

More buttons!! Wow. Yay. Brilliant.

Great piece.

wow. i just love these - and you can just look at it, and each little piece, for a long time - individual buttons and then the whole and its just fascinating and then you get the wonderful little payoff of the two sweet little heart buttons :-)

So beautiful, I just love your button drawings.

Fabulous! Truly fabulous!

Oh, I do so love your buttons drawings, and this one is no exception.

Thank you all, I'm glad you like it.

Tracy, thanks for the observation. That's exactly what I was trying to achieve with this piece.

Cheers everyone, your comments mean the world to me.

Nothing is ordinary when you draw it. And the great thing is that you don't need color and yet everything is so colorful.

janey
http://janeysjourney.com

Wow, great sense of design and composition with these guys. They're so fun to look at. :)

I love it!

These buttons are magic! Your style mesmerizes me, fantastic!

Can I pick one? Great!

hfm
http://tcores.blogspot.com

NICE! so beautifully drawn.

Thank you everyone,
this is a special drawing for me for lots of reasons. Cheers.

Love the buttons! I am in the middle of a hundred day challenge, and guess what I'm drawing/painting tomorrow??
Buttons!!

a) I plan to usurp "bobbins" - they already think I'm a bit daft at work, anyway.

b) That drawing is NOT bobbins - it's absolutely fantastic! It made me want to reach out and touch the spot where one was missing. *wiping monitor*

and

c)I found the following phrase today and figure I should be allowed to emigrate now: "A Dduw! Mae bywell yn fy mhen i!"

"that's not bobbins, no indeed!"

You just never cease to amaze and delight me with your art. This is just so awesome!!

Well, you and i know it's complete bobbins, Andrea. I mean, let's face it.
Hahahah!!!! What a cool piece of parlance!!!
I love the drawing, especially the shading around the missing button -- showing that it is conspicuously gone! Aw. Beautiful topic, and beautiful execution, as always, Andrea.

I love this drawing! That empty spot of a missing button makes me feel sad and lonely.

I'm speechless. Truly. Wow.

gorgeous, as always....
Jules.

I like the ghostly image of the missing button! Wonder where it is now?

Your technique is flawless. I don't know how you make color pencils look so soft and precise at the same time. The same goes for your crosshatching: very resolute lines but extremely soft effect. I hope you work as an art teacher. I know I'd be going to your classes if I lived in Wales!

Claudia

Again a wonderful, typical "Andrea Joseph"! Super well done!

Amazing! Love your fantastic art!!!

Thanks everybody for the lovely comments.

I did not expect much of a response to this as I thought you may all be a little bored of these buttons.So thanks!

Ryan, I'd like to know what kind of response you get should you start using 'bobbins'. Please tell!

Cheers guys.

Beautiful, beautiful buttons! Part of the experience of your drawings is to see them enlarged. One appreciates the details but blow it up and OMG, what is gorgeous becomes breathtaking ... and I've never said THAT of buttons before!

Lovely buttons, really beautifully drawn. I have lots of similar old sewing objects, lots of bobbins, many buttons, just love looking at them. The fountain pens are so nice, make lovely wrapping paper.
Thanks for the comment, still learning how to do all the Flickr stuff , always ringing my daughter for advice ! Did you find the video on my blog ,that she did of my exhibition.
Eileen

hey, someone stole one of the bobbins! they are great, it's nice to learn new words too

bonjour :)

Thankyou Andrea for your lovely comments . I am constantly inspired when I see your amazing work and how much you get done.
I'm just drawing a dragonfly at the moment, not done much since the exhibition, need to get going again .
Eileen

Cheers everyone!

I'm always dazzled by your buttons. And I enjoy the expression "that's bobbins!"....think I may use it from now on!
Ronell

I love this drawing - and I also love to rummage through buttons in charity shops! And when I was little I used to love playing with the buttons in my gran's button jar.

A wonderful story and a fantastic work of art, as usual!

Sounds like a wonderful spot!

OK, I was starting to think, wow, those buttons are in good shape for being in the chhurchyard! But I figured it out, you found them in the rusty tin. And a good find, too! And a great drawing!!

Your story, the houses, the old lady... tell much about your quiet and peaceful way of drawing (or maybe I imagine it this way) that I like so much.

your descriptions of the woman, the shops are so wonderful - i'd love to go there. and the drawings... who knew buttons could be so magical?

I LOVE the variation on the "Jason" buttons in sepia! Beautiful, just beautiful.

I loved your story - sounds like Brigadoon, an unreal place to me! Is that new singer Mr Potts, from your neck of the woods?
Your peaceful take on life and drawing is an inspiration.
w.

Thanks everyone.

This, yet again, looks so much better on Flickr.

Emma, I want a granny with a button jar!

Kathleen, you're right that is confusing (re; the churchyard thing). Maybe I should change it. Hmmm.

Wendy, Mr. Potts is actually from my hometown - although I don't live there anymore.

Cheers guys!

The village must be realy nice. Thanks's for sharing this moment and your lovely buttons drawing's!
M.

Andrea,
Your stuff inspires me. I love doing work with pen and ink, but seeing your work makes me envy those who can really do great things with color!

BRAVO!

Fabulous drawings of those old button cards. I have some just like it.
Your description of the vilage and the shop also paints a delightful picture. It's great that there are still some corners, here in the UK, that are like stepping back into the 1950s.

These are absolutely beautiful Andrea! You never cease to amaze and inspire me!

Beautifull done Andrea! You have such a wonderful feel for taking the mundane and making it beautiful for all the world to see.

Love these drawings, really think these are great. As the owner of lots of button tins, old sewing baskets and contents. Like you, love looking in old junk shops and finding stuff.

Thanks everybody,

Gillian, I couldn't agree more. I just love those places that are like stepping bak in time. There are quite a lot around these parts. But, just as the lovely lady was saying; as all the old buildings get turned into luxury apartments which people buy as second or holiday homes then these places will disappear. It's a shame because they really are part of the character of our countryside.

Cheers guys!

I've got SO much to catch up on ... your blog alone is going to take me about a week! You've been up to some gorgeous stuff.

love the bag. was it your own pattern as well? and the goodies are a nice treat. happy bday by the way -you know you are my birthday twin-
i posted my ribbon and trim spree i had at m & j today as well
cheers
ps - love my needlebook!

Hey awesome about the Scholastic Book!! Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful! Congrats!

I love buttons too. I have a collection of gold ones on my kitchen knook table. There is just something so nifty about them. I have wonderful memories of playing in my Grandmas Buttons.

I sew too. I think your messenger bag turned out wonderful!

Happy Belated Birthday! It sounds like you had a wonderful getaway :)

wow...i wish i had a Bradley in my life....;)
those buttons are lovely! happy belated birthday!

Great ribbon photo! I really like the bag too. The shape is really cute.

Thats awesome- Im glad you had a great time!

That Bradley is a keeper! But you know that. The bag is beautiful and that exhibit sounds magical.

Glad you had a great time in our city! :D

Your bag is beautiful!

congratulations on your book commission! i'm really looking forward to seeing your work for it.
lovely messenger bag, too- it looks very practical and stylish at the same time.