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Indubitably.

Exactly so. Eric Clapton has said, "Songwriting is my therapy," and we all saw how he turned tragedy into a song that reached many.

Give sorrow words; the grief that does not speak whispers the o'er- fraught heart and bids it break.
- Shakespeare

Absolutely - and I think it is just as you say, that the catharsis doesn't even have to be that you are experiencing the same situations or emotions as those in your novel. I've always felt that emotionally-charged scenes were the easiest to write, and I think this is partly because it provides an outlet for my own emotional energy, even if the emotions themselves are not a direct match. Those emotionally-charged scenes are some of my most satisfying and best work.

Amen, brother! As a therapist, I often encourage the kiddos I work with to write. I do get resistance (cause that sounds like more homework), but I'm a true believer in the process and the healing that can go a long with it.

Also, there are studies that show that people who write out their "stuff" are often healthier (mental or otherwise) for it.

Writing out the emotions can be like telling a friend who doesn't judge. You've stated the best advice I know, outside of paying a therapist.

Keep in mind, you don't have to use the writing, it can be discarded.

Lovely post, Nathan. Fully agreed. Thanks again for sharing. :)

Writing is most definitely a way to let out bottled-up emotions to aid in the healing process. It's a way of dealing with grief and trauma so it doesn't eat away at our souls.

For your reader Nathan...
By all means you should write about the difficult period in your life, and yes, it will be painful some of the time. I know because I have done it. Three years ago I wrote a book that was part-memoir. It detailed the years I have lived in Mexico and part of my life story involved the death of my first child. Should I include this I wondered... how could I not I concluded. I spent a l-o-n-g time on the scene and felt "cleansed" when I had finished. When the book got published many people commented on how it had touched them. But one woman actually came to where I work and with tears running down her face, she told me that I had written her exact thoughts. She said that when her child died she couldn't form a cohesive picture of her grief, let alone articulate it. I never saw her again but knowing that my book helped her in this way was so satisfying. Sorry to be so long-winded but I urge you - go the whole way with your story.

I think writing is all about making people feel and think--both the reader and the writer. It's about making the reader feel something about a situation they've never experienced, and that requires tapping into those emotions that are human and universal. We might not all know what it's like to get a divorce, but we all know sadness. We can all connect to feelings of fear and anxiety and abandonment. Delving in and applying those emotions to fictional situations will make them read all the more real, helping the reader connect more powerfully to the story.

I find that this kind of writing--channeling emotions into plot points that aren't exact mirrors of my own experience--make for better catharsis as well. I like genre fiction because it doesn't present exact copies of our world; that makes the parallels I do find all the more meaningful. Similarly, channeling my emotions about a situation I've experienced into a different fictional scenario provides me enough distance to analyze and work through those emotions without being so different that they are no longer applicable.

P.S. I hope things have gotten/continue to get better for you.

Writing as Catharsis: It's the ONLY way I can write...and it drives me freakin' nuts.

Totally. It's what gets me through the day. I wrote a dystopian novel based on my evil corporate job and it helped me get up and go to work. Delving into writing about deeper emotional issues might be tough, but it's writing what you know and it may end up the best writing you ever do. If not, it's still a way to process that stuff, so it's a win/win sitch, either way.

Writers put themselves into their stories one way or another. We are no different from other artists.
I'm glad Jacob helped Nathan in your time of need, and glad he didn't go through a divorce. Yet. He’s got so much other stuff to get done…

I often tell people that if it wasn't for books - reading and writing - I would be a depressed, emotional mess. I find that writing helps me to sort through my thoughts and emotions and helps bring me out on the other side. It's so therapeutic!

Love this post, especially the musings on the possible advantages of depression -- I really do think this is true, that situational depression is trying to get us to look at the "why's" in our life -- and that our society's headlong rush to medicate ourselves out of these moods really is counterproductive in the long run.

Thanks for this post, Nathan!
My protag. battles with anger and depression.
I battle with depression (which thank God is much improved.)
And anger is one factor in depression.
I repress my anger. My protag does, too, I guess, because his anger explodes from time to time. Mine doesn't explode--not as dramatically as his, anyway.
What I'm saying is, I think my WIP has been helpful for me in dealing with this stuff. My protag is like a support group!

verification: 45 andVDoi
Sounds like the beginning of a novel! [You figure it out!]

I've read that after a traumatic event, it can be theraputic to relive the event in a controlled way. PTSD victims sometimes find violent video games helpful, because they can reenact gunfire and explosions in a more distanced, fictional way. Writing about a traumatic event and refining it into a story? Sounds like it might fit the bill, too.

The pen is mightier than the therapist.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. You brought up some strong points and some food for thought.

Thanks for sharing this Nathan. It's hard to be honest about difficult emotions and I think the catharsis of writing is underestimated.

If you check my timeline on Facebook you'll find a quote in my banner from Lisa Brackmann, aka OtherLisa. It's there because I think it's one of the wisest things I've ever heard, and it was just an offhand comment she made on another forum. It says "Take risks. Think deeply. Care about what you write. Have the ego and non-gendered balls to think that your work is important. Write what moves you, what entertains you and sometimes, what pains you. Dig into the places in yourself that hurt the most and see what you find. Sometimes that's where your book is hiding."

People say you should write what you know. I say you should write what scares you. And if what you know--what you've experienced--and what scares you are both the same, so much the better.

Big hug to you for being so open, and for getting through a rough period in life, and then coming out of it with so much grace!!

I love both of your books for many reasons, and now I have one more.

For me this was a very powerful post. I recommended it to my writing friends. I also gave the link to your blog and mentioned it in my own blog post today at vzbyram.com. I didn't quote from it or paraphrase anything, just said they could check it for themselves.

I think I will print out your post and read it a bunch more times. Thank you so much for opening up about this topic.

Oh Nathan, I am so sorry. I was out most of the last 14 months with cancer treatments and I never knew. Sometimes, like with a big illness or upset, you HAVE to take a break. It's a hard call.

What I have done in the past in is write it down and put it away (the hard stuff) for as long as it takes (including forever) to be able to process it (the s..t). Oddly, there comes a time when it may be possible.

Most of all, I was so happy for you in your marriage and my heartfelt wishes are also genuine in this loss. I wish you much life and love ahead.

-bcomet

There is a great post. It's profound and wise.

And I agree: I think this is one of the reasons we are drawn to be creative, it helps us heal.

I also think that emotional pain, as difficult as it is, leaves us a gift. It deepens us, and that comes out in our writing. I think you not only worked through something while writing the third Jacob book, but you made it a better book because of what you were going through and learning.

I hope you're going through a different time in your life now, though, and things are getting better! :)

Totally agree it's good "medicine" to write as therapy. Maybe not for 100% of people, but I would think most. It certainly helped me immensely as I went through a second grieving period since I hadn't "let it all out" the first time. Writing was the single most helpful thing I did to work through the issues involved in losing someone dear.

Yup. Just make sure, if you're journaling it: keep it safe from those who might regret having sneaked a peek.

As to the "a little of what we're going through in all we write," I find that that's less and less true the more fiction I write. While there is inescapably some part of the author in everything ever written, the more I write the farther afield I range into emotions I've not yet necessarily worn, but which I can virtually try on through the characters in my stories.

So yes, writing can in one fashion help us make sense of the world we're struggling through. In another sense, however, it can help us try to make sense of the world others are struggling through.

And then there's...gosh, what's her name?

Adele.

Timely advice for me, since my debut novel, Killer of Killers comes out this month. As for the number of times I've revised it? I've lost count.

I have to agree @ Mr. D. Everytime I read through my owm work there are a millions things I want to change. Most are inconsequential to character and plot, though.
But I love critiques. It gives me a look at my strengths and weaknesses. The latter outweighs the former by far. I'm new to writing and find most reviews of my work to be quite helpful, even if the manner in which it is given stings.

*Always* sit on well intentioned feedback.

{Not the snarky-see-how-smartly-I-trash sort we see on some review sites, that's not feedback.}

Becky Levine understands critique-groups very well.

Patience is a dish best served cold...

Sometimes it doesn't even take that much time. A good night's sleep can do wonders for your perspective and make you more accepting of the idea of change.

Thanks for the link, Nathan!

Another reason not to drop a critique comment "into a pile of wet concrete and let everything harden around it" is that sometimes these comments are made off the cuff and may not have been super thought out.

How often have you critiqued another writer's work, looked back at your comments and then erased them? "Oh, now I see it. Yeah, that does work after all."

I always joke, "The best feedback is the feedback I agree with!" But I think there is some truth in that.

I'm on the fence with this. And that's because I've never had a crit partner or beta reader. I don't believe in them. I know some who swear by them. I'm just not wired that way. It's my world and I work alone.

Besides, publishers and editors will make changes as they see fit. And that's when I really care about someone else's opinion.

There is this new thing going around with some self-published authors now, where they launch an e-book and then wait for reviews and suggestions from readers. As the reviews and suggestions come in, these authors take their books down and make changes according to how readers feel. It's basically readers now being beta readers.

I believe we should own our work. Minor suggestions can't hurt. But this attitude that we need to be open to all suggestions makes no sense to me. And I can't even imagine how frustrating it would be to have to take someone else's advice for changes. Unless of course that someone was a highly successful published author, or a publishing professional with years of experience. It might be different then.

Good advice! My first reaction is often to feel protective or misunderstood. It can take some time to soften and look at the feedback with some perspective.

I have been very fortunate to be a member of an amazing critique group with writers of all genres and all experience levels. Part of what makes it work so well is that having such a diverse group provides a variety of opinions. Sometimes the feedback is divided down the middle and the author is left to decide what direction they need to go with a particular piece.
Also, there is a level of trust and honesty that has to be there in a critique. At our group, the saying is, "If the feedback is going to be bad, you want to hear it here from this group in this room before you hear it from the world on the internet."

I have mixed feelings about critiques. I find that in the “learning” stages of writing, they are valuable and help to shape your style to be friendlier to the mass market. Once you get to write your own, real work, critiques can wear you down and stifle brilliance and innovation. Out of 30 critiques, you will get 30 different takes on your “art”. Following all of the advice is impossible, as you will wind up emulating your critiquer’s line of thought and reasoning.

I would suggest people stick to critiques for short stories, early in their career. When it comes time to write a novel, trust your gut.

Perspective does often change with time.

Was it Neil Gaiman who said this? "When people tell you something is wrong or doesn't work for them. they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong."

I need a little noise, like ambiance or instrumental music, but if there is lyrics it has to be turned down so it is almost muted and I can't know the words or I'll start singing along. My favorite is listening to movie scores that reflect the mood of my writing.

I need some sort of noise. I have small kids and the absence of noise is deeply suspicious. I can write with the tv on, music playing and occasionally with a minor war breaking out on the sofa. I wish I was kidding.

I have to have music on low volume. I need music that speaks to what I'm writing about if I'm writing fiction. For work (I write for a women's website), I like swing/big band really really low so you can barely hear it, like in the old-timey movies. When I'm working on my current YA novel set in the nineties, it's all Journey all the way.

I finished my first novel to the sound of some japanese mech cartoon on continues loop. Sadly the computer was right next to the family tv and my brother was obsessed with this one video. I wouldn't recommend it, but for some reason it worked.

I like to use quiet piano solos to drown out the excess noise wherever I am.

Most people seem to write well to music, but I can't write at all when music in on unless the music doesn't have lyrics. Even then, its difficult. What doesn't make any sense though is that I can write really well with a TV on in the background - as long as its not too loud.

I need absolute quiet--being a musician, I can't use music to block it out (I go into theory analysis mode). I have, however, been forced by the presence of small children, to learn to function without absolute quiet...but I'm never as productive.

Even in high school I studied with the stereo on. I still have the radio or TV on when writing although I absorb nothing from them. They become white noise for me.

I feel like an oddball. I need quiet for writing and revisions. A coffee place is the last place I could write since I'm such a looky-loo that I get distracted by making up stories of people I see.

A little background noise won't distract me while writing: the TV if it's on in another room, the kids talking, the birds if I'm on my deck. But I absolutely cannot write with music of any kind. My mind always wants to wander off with the lyrics or melody.

I don't write well with noise. I used to write at my local Starbucks, but I wore headphones or earplugs because all the conversations and kids who would come in were so distracting. Now I have an office that is silent, and I love it. I just wish I could get there more than twice a week - only once this week with the holiday weekend.

I love to write while listening to lyricless music. Soundtracks, instrumentals, and cinematic music is all fair game.

But I also like to write in a droning environment. The slight hum of conversations floating about actually helps me to get into my own focused zone.

Although there is a point when it gets too loud and becomes a distraction. That's just frustrating.

I'm home alone *and* I take out my hearing aids. Ahhhh...

It depends. If I'm in a creative phase, I need total silence.
If I'm "stuck" background noise works better.

NPR is on all the time. The occasional times when something so interesting comes on that I must stop and listen are welcome and usually make me more invigorated to write.

I need project-related noise, if anything. So, if I'm drafting a picture book, I like to be in a public place like a cafe or mall or restaurant where there are kids and other people around just doing what they do. If I'm working on a novel, I need some scene-related mood music to get me going, but then I really need quiet.

The most important thing, though, is that the noise not be of the distracting nature - my kids in the background, a TV show I'm a little bit interested in, anything like that. The noise needs to be tune-out-able.

I like background noise for sure, especially a laundry machine or car traffic. But as an ex-barista I can't work in a coffee shop unless I have headphones in. I get too distracted by analyzing people's drink orders :P

Mostly noise, though there are times when I have to have silence.

If by "noise" you mean white, red or brown noise, then yes - if it's the right frequency. But I cannot abide talking, music, or snoring doggies.

I'm the strong-on-silence type myself, though a quiet coffee shop is close enough. When I was writing my novel, I found the sessions at Starbuck's were pretty productive. (And I was drinking decaf.)

I've never been able to work in total silence. Coffee shops work okay, but if there isn't enough noise, I tend to key in on individual conversations. And there goes any chance of productivity.

If I play music, it has to be instrumental or I start singing along.

Over the holidays, I found that the food court at the mall worked great. There's a waterfall that gives just enough white noise so the conversations don't distract. However, they closed the coffee shop in January, so I'm back to searching for just the right place.

No, usually noise distracts me.

If I'm in a coffee shop or busy place, I tend to observe the people and activity, and produce little.

Some coffee shops here are now starting to limit the time 'writers' can spend sipping their coffee and writing. They want more turnover at the tables, to preserve revenue.

I prefer quiet in my study, with coffee or tea, especially in the morning OR when creating the first draft.

When editing, I can listen to low level music (usually jazz or blues instrumentals).

Nice to see a writing post, Nathan. BTW - hate the new word verification that a lot of blogs still have.

Coffeeshops work best for me because there is something about the atmosphere that makes me feel more creatively charged: the music, the conversations, the sound of the milk steamer. I don't know, I just want to get to writing. Quiet feels uncomfortable and lonely. Quiet feels stale. And then there is the nap problem.

I'm a teacher in a Middle School so I'm used to noise, and I'm the father of two sons, aged 9 and 15, so I can overcome any distraction. I prefer quiet, but that's not the reality in which I live. So just get it done is my philosophy.

Yep, I have to have ambient music playing in the background. Thank goodness for iTunes radio. Total silence and I start thinking, "I can't write! My brain is empty! I need background noise!" Now, people up and moving around? No way. Eye goes to the motion and the story on the computer screen vanishes. Do they make blinders for writers like they do for horses? :)

I used to write best at my paying job during the most hectic parts of the day(in sales, not for me!)because I could turn the sounds of footsteps and sales being made into a buzzing hum and I'd rocket through chapters like nobody's business.

Last night I sat under a heat lamp at a bar's patio. I could hear the live music through the wall, the rain, and the wind. Toss in a bourbon and beer back and it was a winner. Was able to revise some short essays and put together most of a Powerpoint Presentation for an upcoming reading at Powell's (Yea! Fistpump! Squeee!)

I must have music. I'm usually trying to drown out other noises while i write by listening to music. But I also find music to be a kind of 'engine' of writing. For me it's a forward movement that impels me to write. Maybe it's pavlovian, I put the music on and it's a signal that I'm ready to work. Editing though - totally different. I need silence.

I worked most of my professional life in newspaper city rooms, large, noisy rooms with people coming and going and shouting and talking. A few years back I got a job with my own office and it was TERRIBLE! So quiet I was always falling asleep or wandering the corridors looking for someone to chatter. I last almost two years. Writing at home, I have to have the TV on because the quiet is too damn quiet!

Mostly in utter silence. Noise can be very distracting. I would watch people if I were in a coffee shop. Music plays a huge part for me when I want to create mood and can have that playing while I'm writing sometimes.

For the most part I need some sort of ambient noise. Music is the least distracting distraction, but it has to be the right mood and something I know pretty darn well. New music tempts me to really listen to it, which is not what I'm going for, or makes me stop to switch, etc. As for the mood...it doesn't even have to be the "correct" mood for the scene. I have one, ever-growing playlist that I can and have written nearly any kind of scene to. It just puts *me* in the right mood for writing. When I was younger, I could work with the TV on, but I find that more distracting these days (maybe because I'm rarely alone when I'm watching TV and thus the distraction is the prsn I'm conversing with, not the television). Like Julie, though, I used to work in sales and can write through even the busiest part of the day, so long as no one wants me personally. Too much quiet tempts my mind to wander.

One inconsistency: If I really, really, really need to concentrate on writing a scene or finding the logical sequence flow (did I say they had been seated in the cafeteria, or are Bob's elbows being pushed off a table that magically appeared?) then I need quiet so I can bring my whole mind to bear on that one point. Then it's back to the music :)

I like white noise, subtle noise. I guess raising kids, having pets, a husband, and typical everyday noise (music, barking, road noisiness, etc) has automatically blurred the sounds into lower tones. I still hear them all but they're not in the forefront of my mind while I'm writing...unless something odd perks up my ears.

Need the quiet.

Also need the laundry. I write in short bursts (45 min to an hour) and getting up to change over loads is a good break for me. I spend fifteen min away from the computer, get the blood running through my legs and then go back for another 45-60 min stint at the computer.

In silence.
:)

This is interesting. At home, I can't write if there is music playing or the TV on or anyone around me talking. But every saturday I hit my local coffee shop for 2-4 hours of write time. The noise of the coffee shop is somehow perfect and I get more work done there than I can with the same amount of time at home.

Silence. I must hear myself think. My brain is too hyper-curious and needs to investigate any sounds that creep up. Its a liability. I'd get more done if I could do it with my kids running across my face.

Definitely silence for me.

I prefer not to, but I can write with background noise, although music with lyrics or distinct conversations jar me. Coffee shops are not a good place for me because of this.

On the other hand, once I'm really into it, a stampede of elephants could tromp by and I wouldn't notice.

But to start, what works best for my concentration is complete and lovely silence.

I like it quiet. Or my playlist (nothing with lyrics though). But most often I prefer it to be quiet.

/Anna

I don't mind the silence of the early morning, when I can't turn on music for fear of waking my kids, but I also do well in a corner of the family room while my wife and kids are watching TV.

Actually, it's kind of fun when they are watching "The Voice" because I can't see the TV from my writing chair (where I camp out with my laptop) and if someone actually stands out I'll lean forward to take a look.

But when the winds blows or stops blowing, the two things that set my schnauzer into a neurotic barking frenzy at the front door, I get a wee bit aggravated (at the dog, not the wind).

If the noise is consistent (like white noise) and I know that there will be no interruptions, it's ok. But that's almost never the case in coffee shops! All things considered, I prefer absolute quiet or noise that I create and control myself.

I like background noise, and usually write to random songs playing on iTunes when I'm at home. At coffee shops, there's usually something playing over the speakers already.

I like to write with music playing, but I can also write with noise in the background, just so long as that noise isn't someone talking to me. I don't much like writing in silence. There's something spooky and creativity killing about it for me.

I find it hard to concentrate in absolute quiet. I think background noise eliminates some of the self talk and day to day thinking that goes on so I can concentrate on what I am writing. For me I usually have the tv or radio on in the background. I brainstorm best in an atmospheric cafe with caffeine of course.

I can't write with music playing, but I do appreciate some noise. AS you said, there's something about slightly divided attention that helps me focus. I function better when I multitask, and perhaps that low level of noise pulls on my attention just enough to make me feel like I'm doing two things at once, even though I'm not really paying attention to the TV or other people. It's an illusion that works for me.

Total silence. And I love music - I make up character play lists - but while writing I need silence.

Yeah, I can't do it. I need zero distractions around me or nothing gets done. I even have to turn off my internet ever once and a while.

I like quiet, but if there is noise around me I am good at tuning it out. I call it "turning off the world."

No noise for me! I do work in coffee shops because I love being there but the noise doesn't help.

I need music. I make soundtracks for my WIPs and listen to pretty much exclusively that while I'm writing.

I find that a song that connects you heightens you're emotions to the place they need to be to reach out of the page and grab the reader.

CV

I used to need music when I wrote. I couldn't write in silence, it drove me right to the edge and killed all my creativity to write in a silent room.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand then I gave birth to a child who needs to speak as much as he needs oxygen, and I found that I absolutely needed silence to write, and without it, I couldn't hear myself think. :)

No noise. Not a peep. Seriously, shut up!

If I have music in the background, I want to sing along which is definitely a distraction. Even instrumental draws my mind away from my work.

I like writing in coffee shops too, but I think for me it's about having the pressure of people around me potentially watching me that keeps me focused on my laptop rather than staring into space. I can generally block out the noises around me, so that part doesn't make a difference

No way could I work in a public place. I have to work at home in my office and alone. I like to have music playing in the background but it isn't a requirement.

Hmmm. I am finding that writing with no noise whatsoever has improved my ability to think about what I'm writing. Sometimes I write with music, lyrics and all, but I turn it down so much that it is barely audible. The problem for me is, when writing in silence, is the noise of my computer's fan. I really don't want to close out everything just so there aren't many processes going, so I'll throw the earbuds in and put something like dubstep or glitch on. I used to use yWriter5 and that had typewriter sounds which thrilled the geek in me (I use Scrivener for Windows now). Still, silence suits me better but that damn loud fan!

Red Wings games and movie sound tracks work great. Sometimes a CD, but occasionally I find myself stopping to sing . . . so no words is best. ;)

Back and forth between music and silence. But never with other people around.

Interesting question, Nathan :)

In the past when I wrote often and a lot, the words poured out if there was a low level of distraction. I always preferred writing in complete silence and this was the way I'd spend whole days lost in the story world. Having said that, on rare occasions it was also useful to have mood music playing in the background. This helped to focus on the feeling beneath the scene and gave extra empathy with the characters' emotional state. The scene was usually more evocative of the prevailing mood because of the music, too, I thought.

For me, it depends on what I'm writing. When I'm writing for business, it's coffee shop type low-level noise I need. When I'm writing super-technical, it needs to be silent. When I'm writing creatively, it's the music that fits the mood of the scenes.

Another fun question. Nice to hear so many are like me. I can write anywhere, anytime...on buses, coffee shops (my favorite), or in front of the tv. My husband can't understand it! The only thing that makes me crazy is the sound of sports on tv, and I think that's just because the announcers have a distracting cadence.

Music. Instrumental for when I'm deep into the writing, but in the discovery stage music that tells me something about the character. Quiet if I'm revising/editing.

It varies, from one extreme to the other. Which can be a little aggravating when I've come out to the coffee shop and only then--amidst the din--do I realize it's a Quiet Day. True quiet (I have a family) is usually only achieved around 3 a.m.

For plotting and rough drafts, I'm usually most productive in the wee hours.

For dialogue, it's the coffee shop. Great lines, yeah. But just the rhythms of conversation. Descriptions, too, are better when I'm out and about.

Music for me too. Soundtracks and opera singers, of all strange things. Nothing with a beat, and no TV. I can't tune the TV out.

I too, work well in coffee shops. 90% of my writing is done at lunchtime in the noisy cafes around my work. Plus, as Nathan says, there's also the caffeine.

My preference is to write with instrumental music, preferably jazz playing at a background level - not loud enough to intrude into my awareness, but enough to mask the dogs barking, etc.

It's weird than I'm able to write in a coffe shop or in the train station, I don't care about noise there. But if I'm in my studio I need quiet, even the most little noise disturbs me. So I use an anti-noise ear muff XD

As for me, whether in noise or in quietness, once the inspiration is there, it rushes all out.

I'm fine with whatever. With a little determiniation, you can make a habit out of almost anything. And necessity is the mother of invention.

Either really, but I prefer just a little background distraction. It helps focus my mind on what I'm doing. Too much--like I imagine I'd find in a coffee shop--wouldn't work for me.

I have found I can write anywhere. And sometimes what is happening around me makes it into the writing. When I was in Paris, two Americans discussing plastic surgery lead me to write my blog about it - it was part of a series that became a whole book. The original blog is here: http://bonjour40.blogspot.com/2011/05/day-27-may-17_17.html

When I'm writing I keep all the details of the story twirling around in my head at the same time like a plate spinner with a dozen plates whirling around on sticks. So any interruption causes all my plates to fall and crash on the floor. It takes a lot of effort to get all those plates spinning again.

Therefore, I plug in the earbuds and crank up the iPod with something loud.

I must have noise, whether I'm writing, studying, or working my day job. It helps me focus. In silence, my mind is wandering and I'll wind up singing to myself (and everyone around me - I have a loud voice).

I need music when I write. The ideas flow so much better! Coffee shops also have a great writing vibe for me.

I can, and I can't. I say this because if I'm listening to soft toned music that is soothing, relaxing and I can literally picture myself on a beach then yes I can write freely. But if my surroundings are loud or there are many distractions causing me to lose focus then I would prefer it quiet. It varies.

There's a fine line between background noise and distraction. For me, as a chronic eavesdropper, any sort of speaking is a distraction. I do my bet writing when I have my iPod on, with music playing just loud enough to block out everything around me, but not so loud as to block out my characters' voices. Coffee shops and sports on TV would just distract me from my work.

At work (I'm a copywriter) I hate being in a noisy and distracting space. I'm almost always listening to music to get the job done. I've gotten somewhat used to it though - you can't control your co-workers! I would be far more productive elsewhere, though, and sometimes step away from my desk and find a quiet corner to work.

When I'm working on my novel, I'm definitely a coffee shop writer. I only listen to my music when I find that the music of the space is too irritating or distracting. I never put any thought into why I like the coffee shops so much - I think it has to do with the caffeine and getting out of the house and office!

I learned to write in a bowling alley, so it doesn't matter how much noise is around me at the time. I can still write. In fact I probably write better when it's noisy than when nothing is going on and it's too quiet.

I prefer low-level music in the background, but have nothing against silence. I like a coffee shop or other public place for writing because I give myself no excuse NOT to write, as in "I didn't drive all this way (5 minutes!) to surf the web or read email. Doesn't always work, but it gets me away from the other distractions my house avails me--TV, books, eating, cooking, cleaning, fixing that squeaky door once and for all.

I definitely prefer when it's silent. It helps me get into the minds and emotions of my characters. Which is probably why I prefer it when the hubby is at work. :)

Nathan,

Good to have you back.

I enjoy writing and listening to classical music. But if my concentration or the muse on my right shoulder is having trouble transcribing the activities of my characters, I transcribe in silence. Except of course, the sound of the keys in the keyboard.

Depending on the day I write with blasting music, soft music, or no sound at all. It depends on what I'm writing and what type of mood I'm in. Some days I'll find that blasting music ends and I won't even notice.

The one thing I can't abide is talking while I'm writing. Music with lyrics? Great! Something with a beat? Sure! Talking? I will give you the death glare of doom, pop in some headphones, and turn my music up until I can't hear you anymore.

Music is music, so that works for me. People talking though...I guess I'd say it's like trying to have two conversations at the same time with two different groups of people on separate topics. It simply doesn't work.

I love to write with music on...Silence is not my thing...I get inspired by music..

you can't, but you can. go contradict on a different post...

A bit of both, actually. I find that when I'm typing straight onto the computer, I need total silence. But if I'm handwriting, I can have nice, soothing music on the background.

I'm a writer in silence girl. However the tv may be on . . . muted of course.

It's a bit like rehab after a major injury, isn't it.

Take it slow.

Make steady progress.

Don't expect to start at your former level.

Etc, etc, etc.

Great advice! For me, whenever returning to a work I have been away from for awhile, whether it be a book I've not worked on for months, or a WIP I've had to put aside for a few weeks because life got in the way, I start by reading it from start to finish. Re-reading what's there refreshes my mind, and while I'm reading, inevitably I start to notice little things I want to edit, or ideas spark that I want to include. It puts me back in the skin of the characters anew. If I'm still struggling, I will often read or re-read a book that has similar subject matter to what I've written and see what the author did well and why it's working. I take notes and try and find ways to bring the same momentum to my own story.

This is a timely post for me. January seems to make my mind feel leaden. Great advice and a great time of year for it as I imagine I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Good to see you blogging again! To get back into the rythm, I like to throw myself into a story's prologue (which I end up never using). It's just enough to warm up the engines for the first day or two before I type out: C-h-a-p-t-e-r--1.

Best,

Rashad.

These are all great suggestions. The most important thing, as you said, is to just do it.

Welcome back! And thanks as always for the helpful tips.

Love this! And glad you're back!

All so true. Thanks for spelling it out like that. I totally agree with the first commenter: it is a lot like rehabbing an injury. And you know what. Rehab = not a great time at first.

Good to have you back.

Welcome back Nathan! We've missed your humor and suggestions! BTW your twitter comment about Madonna last night made my husband about roll off the couch laughing!

Great advice! That first day may not be productive, but the advice is solid:

Just start!

Welcome back, Nathan!

By long break, you mean the gap between today's writing and tomorrow's, right? This is a great list for even a break over the weekend. Thanks, Nathan.

For me, I need to completely remove all distractions. I wake up early while the house is quiet and hit the computer. No email, Facebook, Twitter, blogging, or surfing until I met my starting goal (which may be as few as 500 words).

WORD VERIFICATION: inkies. Writers who prefer pen and paper to the computer.

PS My book THE MAN IN THE CINDER CLOUDS is only $1.99 on Kindle!

I've always found other creative writing to be the answer. Especially fun, easy stuff like flash fiction. But I also like how you point out that writing anything, even email, is still writing, and is better than not writing.

Nice to have you back, NB, and for the Clippers to be in first.

I can't add anything to this. You just have to sit down and write something! Hope you enjoyed your break.
Ann Best, Author of In the Mirror & Other Memoirs

How did you know about the Downton Abbey?!

I loved this post. It was just want I needed to hear. I've been on a long break, for about six months because of school, and I think this advice will help me get back into the swing of things. Thanks! :)

After a break from writing, I'll often skim over what happened last in the novel and brainstorm how to continue. I like preparing myself for not just the first day return, but for the rest of the writing days that follow.

Hope you had a wonderful break. I'm terrible at getting back to it. Hoping to gain some ideas here.

Aloha!

I'm with Robin; reading your work is helpful. If you start reading your work, you'll start seeing the story inside your head again. The characters will start moving and talking. Now you're back inside the story, and when you read up to that blank page in the manuscript it will feel much more natural to simply continue on, putting the new words on the page to fill that blank space.

This is a timely post. I've been writing but had a week and a half off before getting back to another ms to hopefully finish up this month. This one has been like pulling teeth out of a wild horse. Today is awful. I just can't seem to see any point but yet I can't let this one go. Keep going I guess and hope I figure it out.

It's hard to get back to it when you've been away, that's for sure.

I also start slow. I write other things--god knows I have enough of those to keep me occupied. I also try to write something fun that loosens me up.

I'm realistic and know while I might have been putting out a couple thousand or more words when I was in the groove, I'm not in that groove yet. First I have to get all the dust out of that groove and I hate housekeeping.

I love your idea of writing a scene you've been thinking of adding even though you're not there in the story yet.

Yes, I do mutter and shout. I've been known to threaten death and destruction, and channel Captain Picard--Make it so, #1.

Enjoyed your points, Nathan, they were good ones.

Sia McKye OVER COFFEE

Good advice, Nathan. Now that my mystery novel TAINTED SOULS is up and running on Kindle, and I'm done will all the formatting for Smashwords, too, I really have excuse for not getting back into the writing of the work in progress.

That doesn't mean I won't find an excuse, of course....

Thanks for the great advice Nathan. Nice to have you back.

You have so much good stuff that honestly, I was glad to catch up on it without the added pressure of ”keeping up”. Thank you for coming back to it, but also thank you for letting me catch up!

Thanks for the encouragement. I've been on such a long hiatus (2 months!) from my novel and, besides a few blog posts, have done very little writing, to the point that I don't even know if this comment is grammatically correct.

A lot of times I'll listen to specific music while writing a certain novel. If I take a break, I'll get back into it by first listening to that music again, think about my characters. Then I'll read what I wrote previously, make a few edits until I get to the place I left off, and then I'm back!

Yay! Nathan's back! Nathan, with his intelligence and fun, interesting discussions and his wonderful humor. Yay!!

I missed you, Nathan!!!!!

And you're right. 5 years is too long without a break. So, I'm really glad you took a rest and please do take many more breaks in the future so you can rest and be energized.

But in the meantime, it's so nice to have you back!

I really like this post, especially since I'm struggling with it. I was writing before Grad school, but I've had a terrible time getting back to it. It's validating to have you write a whole post about this, and I appreciate the suggestions here alot - thanks!

Glad you're back, and that you got to work on book #3.
I like the advice. Especially the bit about writing out of order. I sometimes do that and write a scene that is a few chapters ahead. Just seeing the word count increase is enough to make me feel good, and get me back into the work with enthusiasm.

Good to see you had a productive break!
I had to go back and start small with a new short story before tackling the novel head on.
Short story = fun, short sharp and getting me in shape to climb that jolly mountain again aka novel

Thanks! I really needed to hear this. Going to take your advice and tackle something small in the novel tomorrow.

I haven't been away from my WIP but my computer crashed and burned over the weekend and took all my backups with it. (Lesson learned not to trust my computer with my backups.) I do have some work saved in another location but it's not everything. Trying to start again is really difficult after this major blow.

Imagine my delight when I read your post. Your advice is so timely and gives me comfort that I will recover and get back into the groove. A big thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Fortunately there are a finite number of Downton Abbey episodes...

I'm very happy to see you back Nathan!

YAY! Nathan is back! I'm sure I speak for many people when I say I missed your posts!

Welcome Back, Stranger. :)
Nice to read you again. This post couldn't be more timely as I started back on Winter Roses again only last week...after some positive self-talk. The novel is finished, but it always needs fine-tuning. When I sent the first chapter to you, Nathan, a year ago, I managed to paste one of the paras in the wrong spot. (Concentration not everything it could be.) I didn't find it hard to get back in the swing, except I'd forgotten some of the finer points. Luckily I'd done illustrations for the story, and that jogged the memory. 'Oh, that character has a dimple in his chin.'

Staring at my keyboard usually works.

I need to follow your advice. Because I'm being pulled in too many directions which don't include my manuscript.

I once went through a serious family crisis and had to stop writing for three months. I spent three months watching a family member in the ICU. Editors were great. They told me to take my time and not to rush. But I started to worry how I would write again. I'd never taken that much time off.

But it just happened. One day the family crisis started to get better and I started to write again. Writing actually took me away from all the intense drama I'd been dealing with. It was therapy. When you experience this once, you always know that even if you have to stop for a while, you'll go back eventually. It's a good feeling.

Thank you, Nathan. I'm trying to get back to my novel after two months off. I've had several false starts--hopefully your advice will make my next attempt more productive.

Treat it like an old friend you haven't seen for a while.
OR
Start with short fiction, as some others have said.

Nice to see you back, Nathan.

Sometimes it's hard to get back into writing after getting up to get another cup of tea.

This was an awfully great post for your being out-of-writing-shape from your break. :)

"I'm back, baby!" LOLOL!

Great post. Josin summed it up well. I usually start with revision, and then go to that scene I've been itching to write but haven't gotten to yet. The trick is keeping the momentum going, isn't it? Not stopping when you're this close to finishing. Maintaining that momentum once you get it back is key.

Welcome back to the blog!

I find that when I've been away from writing for a bit, just sitting down and writing something, a few words in the novel, a character sketch, a thought for a story, or even not writing but listening to writing music gets me going again. When I sit down and put my fingers to the keys with my earphones in, I know it's time to work, and I do. Force of habit I think.

Excellent advice. Wish I'd had it 6 months ago but no worries. I am sure I'll use it the next time I get sidetracked on my novel. Life sure gets in the way of writing about life.

Timely word, Nathan. Thanks! I need to get back to my novel after a long break. So want to finish it this year!

Welcome back, Nathan! And this post comes at a most opportune time. When I finished my final edits for my novel and subbed to my publisher at the start of January, I thought I deserved a break and rewarded myself with one. Well, I'm still "rewarding" myself, and finding it hard to get back in the swing of things! Time to get butt back into chair...

Hey dude, welcome back.

Hope you better anyways - "sick as a dog" is rarely a good description for anyones state of health.

WV - Phaltio: (I can't, it's too easy!!!)

Welcome back, Nathan!

For me, rereading what I've already written gets me back into writing mode.

great post!! we expect so much from ourselves and sometimes we need to give ourselves "permission" to ease back into the routine of writing great.

thanks

This post came at the perfect time. I've just sat down and am short several handfuls of hair from trying to "get back into it". My writing-return methods are similar to Robin Reul up above--I like to read through the entire novel, just to remind myself what I've written, why I love it, who I've missed in my novel, and to put me back into the right world before I try to expand it.

I also like to read snippets from a favorite novel to get my imagination spinning again and thrust my brain into the love of writing/reading/words/etc.

Great advise. And to me, its timing is just perfect. I retufned last night to my text after six months. It's not easy. But this advice came in with encouragement. Thanks!

It's pretty much like you said. I just sit down, me and my blank screen and start writing. What I start with might be crap and might have to be revamped later, but at least it's a starting point.

When writing a long piece, I go back and re-read what I wrote the previous day, to get myself back into the grove of that piece before I start on today's writing. Might slow me down a little, but at least I feel like the style and quality is consistent.

Welcome back, Nathan! Did you finish Wonderbar 3? Your tips are great and timely for me since I've been on a book-writing break for a couple of months now. Drinking wine also helps to loosen up the flow of prose those first couple of days back :)

Meghan-

Yep, done with the first draft of #3!

You forgot the whiskey.

I find the more I drink, the better I write.

Also, the more I drink, the better I sing, the better I dance, the better I look, and the smarter I am.

It's miraculous, really.

Just stopping by to say, "Thanks! I needed that."

Didn't know I missed your sage-ness 'til you showed up again.

My issue isn't the break, it's worse: getting started after several false starts through the year.

So, in the "good times" department, I stopped work on my novel on October 18th. I didn't return to it until the end of January, but I FINALLY finished a first draft shortly thereafter.

The thing is, I stopped working on it because problems in my personal life became absolutely overwhelming.

They remain overwhelming.

But at a certain point, I realized that I was looking at having both a permanently unfinished novel AND a personal life that's a mess. It seemed to me it would be better to have a completed novel and a personal life that's a mess.

So I got back to work on it.

Here's the upside - when you're looking down the gaping maw of what might be a truly gut wrenching future, opening up the file of a novel just no longer ranks too high on the things that suck scale.

Perspective.

And again on a silver lining point, revision is going really well. Luckily for me, it's a dark story, and God knows I've got a lot of fuel for the fire these days. At least I can do something productive with it.

Hope everything gets better, anon.

Thanks, Nathan...glad you're back to blogging. We writers need you!

I relate to the writing dark things comment... I let my inner demons get some excercise and wear off some energy that way...

I may be the only one like this, but I find long times away from writing to be like any other time of writing. I just sit down and write.

The only time I was really affected by this was while writing my first novel, which still needs divine intervention to make it readable but thats another story (no pun intended).

I got that book as a Christmas present from my niece. Still haven't opened it. Don't plan on it. Too busy with other books.

I trudged through the first book. I don't really know why. I think I wanted to finish it before the Swedish movie came out? Maybe? Started the second one but put the series away for good when Lisbeth got fake boobs.

Good luck!

I had the same thoughts reading the first 100 or so pages of Dragon Tattoo. It does get better, but doesn't live up to the hype as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I would have felt differently if I had pictured Daniel Craig as the main character while reading...

I'm not going to say too much, because I don't want to give anything away, but for me these books (I've only read the first two) are all about the plot.

There are some good characters, but it's the plot that rules.

The writing is kind of like Swedish architecture and design: austere, yet functional.

I never finished the first chapter because of the boredom factor. I assumed it was one of those books that didn't live up to all the hype.

Great post. I haven't read this book yet but, of course, have had it recommended to me. I might give it a go some day. Loved the character analysis. Some stuff to think about.

Not I book I'll be attempting again anytime soon. I prefer to keep down the food I've eaten, and this one tripped my "ick" sensors.

Was this book translated from Swedish? I found the writing to be unmusical. In fairness to Larsson I haven’t read many translated books that are.

As for the rest of the book, I think Larsson lost track of his story’s boundaries and because of this the book feels overwritten.

I like Matt's description relating this type of writing to Swedish architecture.

Haven't read this book yet, but I agree that characters are what attaches me to a story. If I like the characters, I'll read a couple of chapters to give the story a chance. I do like some hint of the plot near the beginning of the story.

Aren't we all contradictory in some ways? We want this or that, but we know we shouldn't; duty calls, but temptation lures.

It makes writing enjoyable when we give these conflicting traits to our characters.

I never got to finish the first chapter because I got bored. I remember I kept asking myself why the heck it's so popular. I watched the movies and loved them! I guess it's one of those very rare instances where you say the movie is better than the book. I wish I had the patience to wait until the book got better.

This is why a lot of people couldn't get through the first chapter of FREEDOM.

I did and loved it...I love Dragon Tattoo as well. But it's love/hate with most people.

Now, WATER FOR ELEPHANTS depressed the hell out of me and I stopped reading that one. I want to read about old people in old age homes?

I enjoyed the movie, as well. Didn't even want to tackle the book after hearing so many reports re: pace drag, but now I'm curious. I think that there's a difference between deliberately constructed contradiction, and an author not knowing his characters and consequently being inconsistent as hell, then saying "well, people are conflicted in real life" as an excuse.

Loved your analysis, Nathan! You may have almost tempted me to read this - even though it sounds suspiciously like literary fiction - which I tend to avoid, because it makes me THINK.

Your post made me think in a good way, though. It sounds like the author was able to capture fascinating characters. Making internal contradictions believable - that is real skill. And I also loved your description of his authoritative style - confident to the point of invisibility. That's also exceptional skill.

Love reading posts from Nathan the editor. :)

I plowed through it because a friend pressed it into my hands. It seemed to me a book bookended by another book. The middle was great, the bookends dull. The same friend claims the next one is better. I doubt I'll read it, although Lisbeth is one of the best characters around.

I read this one, but had no desire to read any of the others. I didn't get the hype, and just felt maybe something had been lost in its translation. If it hadn't been for book club, I never would have finished the book.

Thinking back on it now, It was plot driven, the pacing often times racing once you got past the middle. The characters were hard to follow. And the names...oy!There were a couple of threads dropped, so it didn't truly stand alone. Also, there were one or two eye-rolling coincidences. Then it got all squicky. Yuck.

In truth, it felt to me like this was one of those suitcase jobs where the author packed everything, including the kitchen sink.

@spytower: I actually think a lot of the Latin authors translate well. Isabel Allende is breathtaking, for example.

But I know what you mean. I've read translations that seemed flat and wooden. I always wondered if it was a stylistic difference between cultures.

@Anonymous 8:31- they don't stay in the nursing home for long and it's a great story, again, because of the character and their drama/tension. Plus, once you meet the elephant, she is quite the character herself.

I was warned also about what a long intro the book had before it got meaty, and have to say, it didn't seem that way at all to me because I was drawn in by the characters immediately. The writing didn't bother me because I am quite used to reading translations of the Swedish and Icelandic mysteries that became so popular in the last few years. It is the last book of the trilogy that I found hard, but I won't say why because it might be a spoiler for those of you still planning the whole thing.

I got about 2/3 of the way through the book. Still wasn't motivated to finish it. I could see how it could have been a great story and I hear the dry, clinical tone is common in that genre in that country. Didn't do it for me though.

I don't remember the first chapter of Dragon Tattoo being boring.

The first book held my attention all the way through. It's different for everyone.

I was just so happy to finally have a really different female main character, someone who is damaged and not always pleasant.

Laurel, I think you’re correct. I read the Jarvis translation of Don Quixote and it’s fabulous. Certain languages, German comes to mind, are structured differently than English (Long sentences with the verb at the end). Because of this, works in those languages don’t translate well. This can contribute to a story in unintended ways. Kafka reads as strange and, in an unusual way, beautiful in translation with its long, uninterrupted blocks of text. More often than not, for me at least, it makes the writing ponderous or dull. Maybe that’s why The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo feels lethargic at it’s beginning. Maybe in it’s native language it has better rhythm and flow and thus feel “faster”.

As for slow buildups, Steven King has more than one book that takes its time getting off of the ground and, as far as I can tell, he’s been mildly successful. Is mildly the correct adverb here?

When I first started writing, I had a steamy love affair with similes and metaphors until I realized it wasn't really going anywhere. My engorged writing was like a huge public display of affection (ahem - I apologize for yet another simile). Now I realize that it is much more difficult to get together with tightly driven plots and intriguing story questions. Lucky Steig has adroitly pulled this feat off in this book. I give him full props!

To be as spoiler-free as possible, I thought the way the investigation unfolded was quite clever, and the end has it's payoff in regard to shock / thrill value (and ick factor, which it has in gross abundance, pun totally intended).

The main detractor for me was the back-and-forth between the story and back-story. It seemed as each new character was introduced, he/she entered the scene with 2-3 pages of back-story, and in most cases, that back-story had nothing to do with the actual story.

I think about 150 pages could have been edited out without sacrificing anything.

But I did finish it and I did read the second in the series, so that must count for something...

Very interesting you mention how you might not have sent this book out in its present form. I read this in my book club earlier this year, and I thought the same thing, which made me wonder if the conventions in contemporary writing differ depending on the region/country. Do you think that's likely? I haven't read any other books from Sweden or Northern Europe, but I wonder if they all begin in the same sort of fashion--a slow start and build up--and the readers from that area have come to expect that. Perhaps they (or some) might find western books to be too, well, fast, or too immediate? Just a thought. I could be completely off the mark, but that's what we discussed in our book club. :)

No matter how much people urged me to continue, I could not get past the start of Lord of the Rings. 100 pages into it and all they did was walk to the end of the road and stop to eat for the fifth time I was done.

I will have to implement a contradiction or two into my current work in progress.

@spytower: HA! I was thinking primarily of germanic language translations, myself, when I referenced the ones that seemed dry. Almost bleak.

And this King fellow...name sounds familiar ;)

I'm also surprised at how popular these books are. The beginning of Tattoo is definitely a drag, but it picks up. I found the tone appropriate and personally loved all the mentions of Swedish cities and specific locations, but I wondered if a lot of people would get bored with it.

The second book is definitely my favorite, and the only one of the 3I felt wasn't overly long. I think Tattoo could be tightened considerably and it would be a great read.

I bought it in June. I trudged through about 75 pages before realizing that, although I'd heard good things about how suspenseful the book was, I didn't care about the characters.

So I stopped reading it, and I haven't felt any impetus to start again.

Since then, I've spoken to three other people who read the book. Their reaction: "I wish I'd stopped at the beginning rather than trying to slog through it!"

I think that we have to remember that books don't become best-sellers because they're good books. They become best-sellers because people buy them, not because people finish reading them afterwards.

I'm with Heather that this is two books in one. There's a boring story about the libel suit, and stuck in the middle of it is a strong but gory mystery-thriller. Were I an agent, I would've passed after seeing the partial because it'd all be the boring libel suit.

Funny, though... I thought the translation was excellent. I didn't find anything that made me even slightly aware that it'd originally been written in Swedish.

For the third book, they even moved the apostrophe in the title of the American edition so that it was misplaced just like Americans would do. ;) [UK: Hornets' Nest; US: Hornet's Nest]

I didn't care for the book, but I have to admit that Lisbeth Salander is one of the most memorable characters I've come across in a long time.

You've absolutely nailed exactly what I loved about the books. The characters are compelling.

Kudos to you, Nathan, for praising a book you would have turned down as an agent, I’m guessing because U.S. publishers wouldn't have bought the book, even though it went on to huge success. This is why self-publishing is such a wonderful opportunity for writers...or, in the case of THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO, it was published outside the United States first. (I have a writer friend in a similar situation. He has an agent, is published and receiving top literary awards outside the U.S., but can’t even get an agent inside the U.S.) There are lots of simply amazing self-published books available right now, readers can find out-of-the-box novels that are going on to receive fantastic professional reviews and awards. Agents have passed on so many amazing books because the query letter didn't read well, the book didn't grab them in the first chapter...or, in many cases, the first paragraph, it broke too many rules, and so on. It's wonderful, I think, to have many different writing styles available to readers. In the past few weeks, I’ve discovered quite a few self-published books by Hugo and Nebula Award winners, an Aurealis Award finalist, authors published in Asimov’s Magazine, etc.. It pays, I think, to keep an open mind about books because, otherwise, every book you read fits the same old pattern.

It took me 60 pages to like it, but i also think it says something about the book that I continued reading. I wonder if somethings been lost in the translation to English. It seemed a bit bland. Once my head was tuned to bland translation I was away. I too loved the characters.

I thought all three books kicked ass. I liked that first chapter, when he just got out of court and he's been beaten.

But overall, the theme of those books is so strong. The whole feminist theme really stuck with me. Those have got to be some of the most powerful books I've ever read.

Also, Marilyn Peake's comment was really good!

Ah, but you're only on page 50. I would love to hear what you think of the book IF you finish reading it. I won't spoil the book for you, so I won't comment on either the characters or plot.

I will tell you that when I got to Chapter 11, page 221 of the book, I felt like I had been reading backstory since page 1. So I stopped reading, flipped to the end and read enough to determine that it wasn't worth my time to plow through to the end.

Hurry up and finish reading as much as you're going to, so we can discuss the characters and the plot. :)

Haven't read the book but I know I've read books where the narration is transparent like you describe. It's a style of writing that doesn't to draw attention at all to the writing. I wonder if that was intentional on the part of the author or just his particular voice.

It's a snoozer in the beginning. But it gets good, and yes, the characters are fascinating. I ended up loving it and appreciating how stylistically different it was from most books I read.

I agree with you about the beneficial effects of the clinical prose style. I actually really liked it (at least as translated). I've heard many people refer to it disparagingly, but to me it was kind of like Ikea-style prose - spare, streamlined, and functional, giving you the essentials at a fair price.

Interesting, not least because I am about to embark on reading the book (in Swedish) having first seen the (two of three) film(s). The films don't drag in the least but are very hard work in the nasty violence area, albeit, for brief episodes. Will be interested to see if the films and book match up - and after reading this I will do an English first 50 pages to compare with the original. But I think to be fair, he did die before these were published right? So he may have planned to edit the opener some more. Who knows!

I happened to read this series while taking some novel writing courses at my local university (focusing on commercial fiction), and I remember thinking, "These books break every rule I'm learning about how to write a salable novel!" I do think the entire series could have used a strong edit--there is much that is overwritten. It seems doubtful the books could have made it in the American publishing climate (at least the traditional industry). But the story and (especially) the characters are compelling. So I guess it's good for the Larsson estate and the series' thousands of fans that the books started out in Europe. Otherwise they'd likely be mouldering in a trunk or withering on Amazon.

ZOMG you're an agent? Can I send you a query? (j/k) :-)

I wasn't planning on reading it due to my friends not liking it, but maybe I'll pick it up. I need help w/ character development.

Your 'inconsistencies' aren't though

I know a number of people who are 'irresponsible and surly turns out to be wildly intelligent and competent' - in fact surly almost *goes* with intelligent like chips and ketchup. There are exceptions, but the smartest people I know are the grumpiest, with very rare exceptions.

Buttoned up =/= equal 'impervious to scams' - anyone can get taken by the right scam,


Sorry, I love your posts, but this one doesn't make any sense.

(BTW I have not read these books, so I am only going by what you say. Intelligent people are often irresponsible - see the fine line between genius and madness.

Just because some one is irresponsible and surly doesn't mean they aren't damn good at their job or thicker than pig shit. Gandalf is surly, and not stupid. Captain Jack Sparrow is irresponsible and not stupid. Both are damn good at what they do,

Sorry - while I haven't read the books, your description shows no obvious inconsistencies. That would come in the writing. Your issue is with the characterisation and the handling perhaps. Not that these things cannot exist in one person. Because they can and do.

Anon-

People are like that, conveying that on the page and making it believable isn't easy. We don't walk around thinking, "Yeah, I don't believe that you're actually a real person," we do think that a lot while we're reading.

Exactly - so the problem is not with inconsistencies, but with the writing/handling of the characters!

Because a great writer can make you believe ANYTHING!

I could not, for the life of me, make it through the first ten pages. I started falling asleep. I couldn't take it. It drove me crazy.

I read the first and second but could not finish the third. By that point- I had enough of the sexually irresistible Blomkvist and all of the female characters that dove into his bed! The only character I cared about was Lisbeth. I was really hoping that she'd resist Blomkvist's advances but of course she didn't. Although the plot is interesting, the writing was a bit dry and slooooow. I was disappointed.

I am an American Scandinavian. We really are that complicated, and I suspect most folks in the world are as well.

What has happened to Americans that they need a gun fight or auto chase every other chaper? Sheesh!!

www.VermillionRoadPress.com

Three years ago I found that book next to the mailboxes in the mobile home park I live in. I'd never heard of it and it looked unread. The title was intriguing and so I gave it a shot. Five pages later I was ready to give it away. Then six months later when I saw something about it in a mag, or online or somewhere, I gave it another shot. Still haven't gotten to the end of chapter one and probably never will. Like so many others, just can't get into it...which makes me think I should write like that since it became a hit! Geez.

Funny, I just started it today. I just finished the 1st chapter, but was ready to put it down several times. Let's see what happens tomorrow.

I haven't read the entire post, but already feel compelled to chime in. Perhaps you address this later, but the remarkable (in a bad way) about TGWDT is that the writing is so dreadful. Yes, perhaps it's the translation, but the idea of such a dreadfully written - on a granular level - novel being published in the U.S. seems slim. I made it through the first book, and quit the second not even halfway through. The wooden prose was about 99% of that. I couldn't help but wonder if Steig was given a pass because the expectations for the writing were less ("Oh, he's Swedish"), or because the story does (grudging admiration here) become, eventually, totally involving?

I read all three novels and I had trouble putting each one down. They were rip-roaring reads for me. In addition to the translation issue, I think Larsson was a journalist (and an expert on the neo-Nazi right-wing movement in Europe) which could account for the authoritative tone.

@Anonymous -- Nathan definitely did address the "wooden prose" near the end of the blog post. He made some very worthwhile observations about Larsson's (translated) style. Take a look! I really loved this style of writing and the way it served the characters and story. It didn't need flowering up at all, and it sometimes it was so literal and straightforward that it felt as though Larsson was winking at the reader. (Think the detailed paragraphs about how Lisbeth "did this, this, and that, then immediately feel asleep for eight hours without waking up once." Or her Ikea shopping trips...)

It's just a style thing, which obviously isn't for everyone. After page 85, I could not put these books down, all the way until the end of "Hornet's Nest." The plot is so expertly crafted, and Lisbeth was extremely fascinating to me.

Similar to what Marilyn said above, it will be very interesting to see what comes out of this new publishing frontier, now that a select few are no longer the world's literary gatekeepers. I consider the Millennium Trilogy to be one of my best reading experiences (for a number of reasons) in the past few years. Funny to think that it easily could have been left on the slush pile floor.

Darlene Underdahl
It wasn't because it was "slow" that I, personally, stopped reading. I read a lot of books that most people would consider slow. I stopped becuase there were so many unnecessary side trips that went nowhere and because I couldn't care about the characters.

If all americans cared only about the car chase and explosion type reading I think the rapes and sexual content would have kept them enthralled. As it is we just couldn't get through the extraneous stuff to get to the characters and story.

I say this speaking for myself and not having finished the book. If I've made wrong assumptions I apologize.

I like characters that are multi-dimensional. I've read books where certain characters didn't change at all from page 1 to the end, and they were less interesting because of that. I think that people in real life are full of contradictions, so it's nice when authors can show that in their books.

I think you've hit on a few things here.

1) Scratching "Bransford" off the list of agents I intend to send my latest project to.

Seriously. I'm wondering if it's even the tone, more than the characters, that carry the book. The authoritative tone. The airtight, here's what happened and I know because I was there sort of indisputable voice.

As an example: The beginning of "Lord Jim," by Joseph Conrad, isn't particularly capitvating, until he abandons his first ship only to have it saved by its Malaysian crew (the embarrassment is the key, of course).

Conrad in a few sentences shows us the expectation of the character--his own, and those who judge his actions based on what actions he was expected to take.

I'll never forget someone telling me at a party how much fun I appeared to be (uninhibited), confessing "I always thought you were so buttoned-down!" (A description, by the way, that had my wife and close friends in stitches for years).

Perhaps--just perhaps--today's agents are in too much of a hurry, wanting to be wowed immediately, by "high concept" and "blockbuster" and "exciting" openings, and not actually erudite or patient enough to read, truly read, let the words and tone and story sink in, before judging the saleable, as opposed to literary, merits of some works?

I confess, I've had the same problem reading David Eggers, and even Annie Proulx. Not to mention agreeing largely with B.D. Myers' "A Readers Manifesto" that "Snow Falling on Cedars" should have been named "Sleep Falling on Readers."

I still laugh reading about what some thought of "The Sun Also Rises" before Max Perkins took the risk and got Ernest Hemingway to break his contract with Boni & Liverite by agreeing to publish both it and the abominable, purile "Torrents of Spring."

"A bunch of people going around Paris and Spain and not really doing anything."

Fair criticism, for that, essentially, is true. Yet, the characters are memorable--perhaps because the revelation of Brett Ashley's true self as actually a caring individual contradicts her initial appearance; or, perhaps, just perhaps, because in that novel, as with his short stories, Hemingway wrote as if all of it were airtight, indisputable truth.

And maybe it was...:)

I love Conrad, by the way, because his 'slow' beginnings--Marlowe sitting in a chair on a veranda on a tropical night, lighting a match--are exactly what draw me in, like a moth to the flame interrupting the darkness above his smoke, to the words that follow...
Best,
T

But I haven't read Larsson's series, and thanks to your endorsement--I don't have time or the need to read books just to say I have--I'm unlikely to, unless your post intrigues me enough to double-check your usually excellent analysis.

The discussion brings me to another question, though: so, what agent read it, in Swedish or English, and, based on its sales in Sweden? decided it would be big here?

And why WAS it so big here (it was), so well-hyped, that EVERYONE who was ANYONE HAD to read it and pronounce it of such greatness that nothing written in English since Dashiell Hammett's "The Dane Curse" could possibly compare?

It obviously made a lot of money, for somebody (since Larsson was dead when it came out).

Another example of "literary" taste being defined by sales figures and ancillary rights profits? Who and how figured they could make a mint with it, and why, after having to push through the first 50 pages? Aren't we actually saying that publicity and marketing, more than characters or tone, were responsible for the series' "popularity," not to mention sales? And how many other less than stellar works have been paid for by a similarly swayed public?

Don't worry, Mira, I'm unlikely to insist you read my novels, or any other for that matter. But I must say, your honesty is most refreshing!

For my shame, I have not heard of this author, but seems very interesting! I will look for his books!

I'm a big fan of novels that open with eccentricity. (It's one of the main things I emphasize in How To Write Your Best Story). Eccentricity is naturally intriguing; normality is not. It's what makes a story worth telling . . . "something interesting happened today that was odd." Or in this case . . . "here are some truly eccentric characters. Want to hear more?" Then, once you're pulled in, the plot can develop. But story comes first, and is what (as Nathan points out) tends to appeal to literary agents and attract readers. As an acquisitions editor, I agree; it's why we can read a chapter and already want to publish the book, long before we discover where the plot goes.

I thought I was crazy.

Page 63.

That's where I made it before I shut the book over a few years ago. I've looked at it on the shelf, wondering if I'd ever open it again. Wanting to open it, just to read what's spawned two films and a book trilogy.

I made it to page 63, largely because I realized there was probably something lost in the translation.

Something about Larrson's work reminded me a lot of Henrick Ibsen. Painfully slow setup, giving us a great full depth of character, and setting up the problem -- but man, pick up the pace some.

So maybe it was the language barrier.

And I wholeheartedly agree -- Lizbeth is the type of character I want to read about. I was sold a few pages in. But the more I read, I more I begged the book (no shit, actually begged the book) to get started.

I've read through my stack of new books. Haven't picked up anything in awhile. And there it is, staring back at me from the shelf.

This review couldn't be more aptly timed, as I've found myself wrestling over whether or not I can torment myself by re-reading those 63 pages, and marching on through to the end.

I'm not sure I can do it.

I'll just watch the movies instead -- (David Fincher's version looks like it got Lizbeth's character wrong. She looks soft in a way the foreign version doesn't. She looks absolutely badass in the foreign version).

Great post, Nathan.

Also, I read this book. I found the characters compelling and the plot as well. What threw me out of reading the sequel was the gratuitous violence. That seems a dark ingredient often used in the Swedish writing (i.e., "Let the Right One In"), like they must include such, at least in those Swedish novels I have seen published that I have read or started reading.

Thanks for this post. I'm glad to know I wasn't the only one feeling as if the opening was pure torture to read. I gave up, actually, deciding to just watch the movie (which I haven't done yet either). My daughter told me I should stick with it, that it gets better. As a writer, it goes against everything I have ever learned about engaging your reader in those early pages.

I'm trying to remember the opening of the book (I read them about two years ago now) and I can't picture what it was that was so boring. It started off with Blomkvist being sentenced, and I found that compelling enough myself.

But, I also was one of three people on the planet who enjoyed the financial dealings and unravelings described in such detail, and enjoyed knowing what Blomkvist ate for lunch (all those open-faced sandwiches with unlikely ingredients!). The books were very different from how I write, but I still enjoyed them immensely. Thanks for the post disssecting what did work about the beginning for most!

My spoiler-free review of Dragon Tattoo, for those interested...
http://ajmass.blogspot.com/2011/05/book-with-draggin-plot.html

In fairness, all 3 books could use a LOT of trimming. Book 2 has an entire beginning section full of characters with no connection to the rest of the story. The only part that was important really was that Lisbeth has gotten some bodily alterations.

I've read all 3 books and watched the Swedish movies. The movies in this case are much better than the books because they trim out all the extra stuff that weighed the books down.

If you haven't read the books, watch the Swedish movies because they're worth it.

I never read the books because I watched the original films, but now that you've written this post, I think I will check it out and see what I think. I LOVED the original movies and when I saw the English movie trailer I was in AWE - looks so great I can hardly wait. But the books would add another level to the stories. I have always loved contradiction in characters - it reveals the underlying bias in people (in real life) and sets up some surprises if done properly in fiction.

I loooove Pink Floyd!

I really love both first and third person.

When it comes to reading, I like first person because I like seeing the mistakes the narrator makes in assessing situations. That being said, it also drive me crazy. But in a good way.

When it comes to writing, I prefer to write in third person. I really don't have a reason for why I prefer it. I'm sure subconsciously my favorite books are written this way, so I am trying to mimic them.

Great post!

Excellent post. Probably the best explanation I've seen.

I almost always write in the third person because I like the control it gives me. But the few things I've written in the first person have always been excellent sellers. I've never gone into detailed analysis, but I've often wondered if it meant something about readers preferring first person.

Anyone looking for a really good use of first-person should read the Travis McGee books by John D. MacDonald. 20+ novels all told in first person, and you get to see exactly what Nathan's talking about: the discrepancy between the character's perspective, and the real world comes through in the way the protagonist filters the world. They're also exciting reads in their own right. Enjoy!

I love Brent Hartinger's "Geography Club" and its sequels. Such a witty narrative voice. "Split Screen" is even more fun, because the first part is from Russel's perspective, and the second part is from his best friend Min's (both of them are complete books, over the same time period). It's fun to find out things that are happening when one of the POV characters are not around.

"The Half-Life of Planets" is also a good read, because the story alternates between two perspectives: a girl who's labeled a slut, and a boy who has Asperger's. The voices are so different, but so engaging.

Ah. I love first-person stories when they're executed well.

While that approach to first person is certainly one approach i don't think it's the most common. Usually first person provides the reader the same perspective as the MC and we learn stuff as he does, tension being generated by whatever makes him tense. So if he gets home to find a note saying his girl's been kidnapped, then we feel his fear for her. If it turns out she was in on the kidnapped and not much of a girlfriendhe'll probably start to suspect something's not quite right at the same time As we do.

The type of 1st person story where the MC doesn't know what's really going on, and the reader does isn't the first that springs to mind with 1st person POV, for me anyway.

mood
Moody Writing
@mooderino

The Elevator Test! Perfect. Need to share this with my critique group tonight. Thanks!

This is one concept in writing that I just don't get. When I'm doing the writing, I just can't wrap my mind around the differences. Reading them is different. I get it. I just can't seem to bring it to the page naturally.

Great post! I'm going to listen to "Dark Side of the Moon" now.

Great explanation. I enjoy reading and writing both first and third person.

First can be a little tricky at times. You can't write about what's happening in the next room unless the MC overhears. ;)

Love the elevator test. :)

I tend to be picky about reading first-person. To me, the best first-person narratives are ones where the POV character has not just a perspective, but some kind of agenda. You get the sense there is a reason they are telling this story, and an unseen audience they are telling it to (who may or may not be the reader), as opposed to just the inner dialog of someone narrating a play-by-play version of events, as though they're talking to themselves.

For instance, "The Handmaid's Tale" is a secret diary, an expose. "Catcher in the Rye" and "Lolita" both feel like defenses/confessionals.

I totally agree with your point re: people sometimes using third person to give too much detail -- to tell, rather than show. I see that more than anything else in my critique/editing work.

That said, I often see in first person a desire to showcase voice over action, especially if it's a humorous voice. I get lost in so many asides and so much internal commentary, I forget what's going on in the scene!

The few first person books I've read, I feel 'robbed' of a good story. There is so much beyond the single POV that I want to know. So now, if I see a story in 1st person, I don't bother.

First person is an immediate turn-off for me but sometimes the writing is good enough that I can keep going.

I am sooo much more comfortable writing in first person but, the last novel I drafted, it became clear to me that the narrator was kind of weak and annoying.

I've read too many books that made me want to smack the narrator. I scrapped that one and I'm trying my hand at third person.

Only thing is, I get sick of typing the mc's name. That's a minor gripe but still... :)

Excellent post - totally on point, clear explanation. Completely agree with you about what makes each voice compelling! Also, love how you tend to make equations about this kind of thing. :)

Gorgeous picture.

"The tension in third person is between what the reader sees in the outside world and what is actually happening from the characters' perspectives."
This is the most helpful sentence I've read on 3rd person outside of John Gardner. Thanks,

I just can't seem to do first person when I try. It often just stalls. So that's why I do third. I can get into more people's heads and make a much more interesting book with more detail and less telling that way.

First person narrative tends to be more 'it's all about me and how I'm feeling' and less about the world and what's going on around the character. Which is great if you want a YA book that explores a character who's focus is growing up or learning something about themselves. But for a more interesting read on the outside influences to their lives, I tend to like third person. Because there is more to a person than the person themselves.

I think that 1st person vs. 3rd person depends on the story.

If there's a lot going on in a story, I'm using 3rd person for my main WiP because I have multiple perspectives on the unfolding story and I wanted to change story lines as seamlessly as possible. Having to explain which character is doing the talking would make the story too complicated.

On the other hand, my secondary WiP is in first person, because the tension in the story comes from the fact that the main character has to deal with disparities between her memory and what is considered normal. So in her head is the best place to be.

:-)

I find I really love first person in YA fiction, as it forces the author to try to think like a teen and decreases the possibilities of the author's falling into didactic mode. That being said, I love Rowling's style, and she, of course, writes in limited 3rd person most of the time.
For adult's books, either 1st or 3rd person can work -- and, occasionally in literary fiction, even 2nd person can work. It depends on the author's skill and style.

I wrote a draft of a YA contemporary fantasy in 3rd person. As I researched YA as a genre I had a hard time finding any 3rd person perspectives; almost all YA seems to be in 1st person. I think there's a reason for this, that it can be easier to connect wtih a character initially when told in the character's voice. Maybe that appeals more to younger readers. It's interestign to play around with POV to see what works best. I used to be annoyed with 1st person, but it depends on the character and story.

I have to agree with Shawn Lamb -

I feel like it's easy to get robbed of interesting story in 1st person. One of my favorite series is written in 1st, but the other characters are constantly having to fill the MC in on what happens when he's not around.

In 3rd, not only can you see what's going on elsewhere, you get it filtered through someone else's worldview. I also like playing with how different characters perceive each other.

On the other hand, I feel like a character's personality just SHINES in 1st person in a way it doesn't in 3rd.

I like both when I read, but I much prefer writing in limited 3rd.

If you can name one person who'd enjoy being stuck in an elevator with Holden Caufield, I'll give you a million dollars.*

*Offer only open to those who've seen J.D. Salinger in person

You have to write out of a voice with which you can, at the very least, marginally identify. You can't ask for advice on which tense, point of view or tone you should employ any more than you can ask a personal shopper to tell you who you are.

Well. I suppose you can but then the personal shopper oughta get the byline.

Incidentally, I write first-person, present-tense narrative and feel a deep immediacy to my narrators in that way. But this may not work in the least for the guy in the hat at the next screen.

Do your own thing, writers. Over time-- mastery.

Two cents.

I favor third person in both reading and writing, but if the writing is good, I can enjoy a book in 1st person.

For Shawn who commented before me, you might want to try The Help. It's in first person, but the pov person changes between four different characters, if I remember correctly. Each chapter is soley from one person's pov, so it isn't confusing, and it is so well-written, it's never confusing. I didn't think I'd like it at first, but ended up loving it.

Great post, Nathan. For myself, my first inclination is always to write in first person so I do. For five pages. That length is usually enough to figure out if I can tell the story that way (and if I am bored to tears of the narrator). If it isn't, I re-write in some variation of 3rd. In rare cases that I haven't become sick of the 1st person, I figure that's the sign, so I stick with it.

I think of it as the five page gymnastics test. If I'm having to do a lot of mental gymnastics to knock out 5 pages, I picked the wrong type of narration.

I honestly hate third person. There is an author I really like (but don't love)and will read (but not buy)all of her books. I think the thing that keeps her from being really great is the 3rd person narration. Idk, something about first person really helps me to connect to the MC. I've only read one 3rd person book that really made me empathize with the character.

Great description. There's more variety available in third person if only because of the different options. You can get almost as good as first person by using the very close, third person. Jo Rowling used it with the HP books. With only a handful of exceptions, everything the reader sees is through the Harry filter. That includes all his biases.

I fairly strongly prefer third person close. I only want to see into one head at a time. I like the 3rd person better than first though, because first gives a self importance to a character who needs to tell the story themselves or something... there are books that overcome it really well (a lot of them) but there are also a lot of them that read like diaries and that bugs me. I REALLY don't like omniscient, and I ALSO really don't like objective... I want to know what SOMEBODY is thinking.

Really liked this post, Nathan. This is one of those decisions that either falls out naturally due to the type of story, or it causes us much consternation.

I'm not fond of first person, in my writing or reading (especially first person, present tense). Just my perspective, but 1st person seems to be popular in young adult, and I wonder if that's due to the immediate feeling one can get -- like talking to your BFF. This may be a current trend, but still. . .

My preference is for third person, sometimes omniscient, sometimes limited. I do like to know some of the character's thoughts or even all their thoughts, depending on the situation. I enjoy good narrative, sprinkled with lots of
dialogue.

An annoying narrator will turn me off a book before I get very far along in the story. It's a fine balance to get the voice just right for the story being told.

Looking forward to reading all the discussion comments on this subject.

I've written in both, and to me, it may sound counterintuitive, but I think the reader can become more intimate with a character written in third person.

When I read something in first person, I'm constantly thinking - wow, I wouldn't do that, say that, think that. When it's third person, I'm more willing to sit back and wait to be shown why that character is doing, saying or thinking something. I trust it will be revealed sooner or later, and am willing to go along for the ride.

I seem to be one of the rare people who prefer first person. I really like to get into the protagonists head, and for the most part, first person gives me that.

I find that often third person leads to too many characters and too many subplots. Just too much to keep track of for the light urban fantasy that I prefer.

Funny, I'm also picky about tense and prefer past tense.

Of course, good writing is good writing, so I'm not that picky.

Wish I could add some tips, however, you you said about tension in relation to the first person pov, was powerful and something I should've known years ago.

But right now, it's in my secret arsenal of composition notes, that are handwritten even.

Thanks Nathan!

"The absolute most important thing to keep in mind as you're crafting a first person narrative is that everything that occurs has to be filtered through your narrator's perspective."

As always there are exceptions that prove the rule. James Patterson outsells everybody with his first person Alex Cross thrillers, yet always manages to show the villains in third person when convenient.

As an author I hate it when he does that. It just screams WRONG!

As a reader I keep going back for more.

This is a great post, Nathan, just what I needed to hear. I have a third person novel I wrote eight years ago and foolishly published through a POD concern. Now that it's rights are back to me I thought about rewriting it in first person. It's Early Teen and like YA, seems to work well in first person. I've begun, but find that I'm also writing it in present tense, that the MC is relating events as they happen. Not comfortable with this, but don't know exactly how to make it sound as good in past tense. Your thoughts, and anyone else have this problem, if indeed it is one?

I agree with Shawn and Michael. Because I never could stand first person. I used to endure it, but lately whenever I open a book and learn it's first person, I put it right back down.

It's just not for me.

I'll give an example. I started reading this novel not long ago. It was in first person and the narrator went on to describe her reaction when she saw a handsome man. She wrote something to the effect of, "...my pussy twitched..."

Seeing that I've been a man all my life, I felt very uncomfortable suddenly having a pussy. And a twitching one? I didn't even know they could do that!

I enjoy reading both; I enjoy writing both, when executed well (and that disclaimer is aimed at myself as much as it is at anyone else). One way around the issue (mentioned above) with the first-person narrative being too limiting is to offer multiple first-person accounts (e.g. Jodi Picoult's My Sister's Keeper or Chris Bohjalian's Trans-Sister Radio).

I chose to write my first novel, a YA fantasy, in first person for a number of reasons.
1. Its easier for young writers because you don't have to make the decision about which character's perspective you should write from for each scene like you do in 3rd person limited.
2. Its easier to show the reader who your character is.
3. Its way easier to make your main character funny, sad, misunderstood, etc. (although I chose it for the humor aspect mostly)

All that being said, I like 3rd person a lot in adult literature and epic fantasy because the world can feel so much bigger, and the reader can get to know so many more characters.

The most interesting twist on 1st person I've read lately is House Rules by Jodi Piccoult, but I think this should be approached with caution. She is very good, but I feel like I might not know my characters well enough up front to differentiate as well as she did (I'm not a big outliner/planner:).

I'm curious, why didn't you reference first person plural, or second person? I know, they're rarely used, but I'd be interested in your take on them - & other variants.

Most writers these days (especially in YA fiction) tend to jump into first person as though it's a given. But as you say, an unlikeable narrator can kill a story, especially one of those whiny ones!
Also a large number of writers unfortunately think that present tense goes along with first person, which can get you into all sorts of problems with tedious rhythm and verb constructions. Ugh.
I suspect readers think they want first person because of the world now - reality TV, instant communication, FB etc, but maybe us writers should make a big move back to third person, and show the world as being about more than one character and one problem.
I'm blogging about POV at the moment and it's giving me lots to ponder!

I believe some genres lend themselves better to 1st person POV than others. Also, the reason that I think people enjoy 1st person is that it is easier for a reader to project themeself into that character's shoes. This means the conflict has more punch, twists seem more personal, and overall story becomes truncated, rather than expansive. The biggest tip (no news here) is that the narrator has to be likeable.

In third person, authors love the freedom and versatility. The challenge becomes that too much information can dull your reader to the conflict.

So, I think 1st person POV provides such a narrow viewpoint, it creates a personal, harrowing, tour-de-force experience for the reader. On the other hand, third person POV lends itself to a larger, more complex view of a story, allowing an author more control of the information to which the reader is exposed.

I went to Amazon and looked at the 25 top-selling novels (with kindle versions). More of them are first person POV (64%) than third person (36%). If you're interested in the details, the numbers are here.

I've found that when writing in the first person that I'M tired of my main character then it's time to reevaluate - or have them devoured by marmots.

The only first person fiction I've written has the narrator dying in the first sentence! It's liberating to write in first person, there's a looseness to it that aids in the flow of words. I choose to write most fiction in third person because the omniscient POV serves the complexity required of my story.

I prefer to write in first person. My protagonist or main characters are usually creations that I strongly identify with and their story's and dialouge consist of things I'm personaly interested in or want to say or address, but not always. It's kinda like acting where I get to play a role and participate rather than just observe and dictate.
It's harder to do, stay in character that way, and I've heard people say things to the contrary when it comes to writing in 1st. But writing in another characters skin that's nothing like you, is hard and you have to constantly watch for tense,tense can get slippery, but it's great fun to walk in those shoes and feel them come to life.

There is also the sense of immediacy that shows through in first person narrative that is often missing in third person.

I feel it depends entirely on the story and which fits the overall "feel" more naturally.

There is a another option that one of the commenters mentioned in passing: third person limited. The reader knows first hand only what one character knows, but that character has to be the MC (or protagonist) or someone intimately close to the MC. Third person limited naturally omits the whining and self-obsession many readers dislike in first-person writing. And yet it opens up the story to epic complexity without removing the personal, human take on what it all means.

Currently, it seems most of the books I am reading are in first person. Thanks for the explanation, but can you give some good examples of 3rd person. The omniscent thing is still confusing to me.

There is third person omniscient and third person limited. third person omniscient lets you in on every aspect going on from different characters, but as Nathan said, it doesn't mean you tell everything. Third person limited is very similar to first person, because it follows only one character around, but it more limited than 1st person because you are more obligated to show. I am glad that I clicked on this blog tonight. I hadn't looked at it in awhile and I was having withdrawals. This was a very good blog to read to get my fix.

As a mater lecture as that was, I say write it like you like it and don't worry about who's person it is coming from. That's for scholars to debate. I say, tell the story you must tell in a way that seems beautiful to you. All this first person and third person is old-hat book selling, giving literature professors a job. No offense to anyone. I say three perspectives weaved into a whole is far more interesting than, say, Salinger. He was interesting enough at the time, but man, now, that is kindergarten (Is that a German word?.) My Nemesis is The Third Policeman and the other works that Irish man has done. I think Two Birds at Swim is another. First or third person? As writers? Is there a difference? For simple readers, there just might be. I don't know. I know this is a throw from way left field, but I can't help but think about it.

Neil & others, I don't know why you all think first person must be present tense. Listen to someone telling a story (their trip to the mall yesterday, or whatever.) They use past tense, but sometimes switch to present tense, especially for dialog, or for a dramatic incident. Just do what feels natural.

As a newbie writer, I can't imagine doing anything but first person. It keeps me focused. I don't get bogged down in detail (as I did in history tests.) I don't have to worry about voice, because the voice is the voice of my protagonist, so if I nail that I'm OK.

I prefer reading first person,too--fact or fiction. More immediate. Whatever.

By the way, if any emotional comment creeps into my story, I usually have to take it out. My narrator is not in touch with his feelings. They emerge through the narrative, though.

Marion, you're confusing me. If you are writing a first person narrative and leaving the first person perspective out of the book, what are you writing? No offense, but a text book? I don't know if you have realized this yet, as a newbie, as you called it, but everything the narrator, what we are calling first person in this post, is the poetry of the story, the words that are worth reading. So, if you leave them out, and I'm not really sure what you're saying, what are we reading. Possibly omniscient? I would need to read your stuff to know. Nathan is pretty good about that on his forums. Last time I checked, which seems now to be another life time ago. But give it a shot. Most writers actually love and support other writers. I could, of course, be naive, and Nathan is a hand wringing evil troll that has set this whole web site up to steal people's genius ideas. But, I'm going with don't be shy or paranoid and throw it out there and let his fans tell you what they think. And Him, or he. Subject or object. I'm still having trouble with that. Anyway, writ it out.

Pretty nice post. I just stumbled upon your blog and wanted to say that I have truly enjoyed browsing your blog posts. After all I’ll be subscribing to your rss feed and I hope you write again soon!
London Hotels

I'm just beginning to write my novel based on my outline, and decided to write it first-person, so your blog could not have been more timely.

As far as a best example of how first-person can let you crawl into the character's perspective, is in the book "Chocolat" upon which the movie was based. It alternates chapters - one is from Vienne, the chocolate-shop owner, then one from the viewpoint of the priest of the same events. Fantastic writing, and it's all about what isn't said, or how the characters think. As the reader, you can see who is good and who is evil, but the characters (especially the priest) are viewing it the other way around.

Great distinction between first and third, Nathan! I started my current project in first and didn't realize this is such a sticky subject. But I guess it's like anything else-subjective and about preferences. My protagonist lives a secret double life so it needed to be told from her view. And I've never had so much fun. First was a new beast for me, but I'm happy I went this way. A blast.

I tend to write in both first and third person, letting the story dictate which perspective works best for it. Overall, my play-by-post role-playing tends to be in third-person and my independent fiction tends to be in first.

I don't usually have trouble unless it's a writing *assignment*, in which case I nearly always have trouble finding the character's true voice. Not sure exactly why that is.

Where's tuesdays post?

anon-

The dog ate it. Sorry!

Overall, I prefer the 3rd person pov because if I don't have enough in common with the main character in a 1st person pov, I can't empathize with that character and I'm already left out of the storyline from the first pages.

That said, if the 1st person pov is someone I can empathize with, then the story becomes more personal. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen as often. I read for escapism. I like the adventurous, dangerous life of fictional characters probably because I don't live that way thereby making it harder to read from the 1st person. As much as I would love to be Lara Crofts, James Bond or Indiana Jones, I'm not.

This ideology may account for my reduced reading of YA novels in the last 15 years. No, I didn't suddenly become an adult, but I could no longer identify with protagonists in the video age with cell phones, absent parenting, and a mall lifestyle.

I think mass reader identification is the key to whether or not to use 1st or 3rd person pov. Ask yourself, "Who is my audience? Who is going to read this book?"

www.TammySetzerDenton.com

Thank you for this! You just confirmed my decision to keep my novel in the third person.

I appreciate your analysis of the key differences between the two viewpoints. I am in the process of re-writing my novel from the third person into the first person because two editors at a writing conference suggested it. I have been questioning my decision but proceeded anyway. I see now, given my protagonist's view of the world, why these agents suggested the change. Thank you!

I enjoy both equally when they're well done -- but I think first person is harder to do well, and so far I've always written in the third person myself.

You didn't mention this, Nathan, but first person is harder to handle grammatically -- among other things, verb tense errors creep in; the author should be switching from past tense (to tell the story) to present tense (when the narrator makes a statement about the world or human nature or something else that was not just true in the past, but is still true). Not handling verb tenses properly leads to awkwardness and a kind of micro-confusion about what's true right now vs what used to be true but isn't anymore.

Also, first person introduces the question of the frame story -- who is telling the story to whom and why and how long after the action is over? A poor frame story can make the real story feel awkward, but if there's no frame story, then that lack can feel awkward as well.

One great resource is Orson Scott Card's book on character and viewpoint. He spends quite a bit of time analyzing first versus third person and the problems and advantages of each. It's one of the few books on writing which actually seemed helpful to me.

I think both first and third person have their place. My preference for writing is first person. This is because I'm writing character-based books, and I love reading these types of books in the first person. I feel like I connect with the characters on a deeper level when the books are in first person. But there are many other types of books that third person is really well suited for.

I like bouncing ideas off other people, but I'm particular about who I share them with. My sister is an excellent brainstormer, so I always use her and I've been surprised that when I've shared with others they were actually excited about my story ideas and wanted to help brainstorm too.

Well, my mother gave me the push I needed to start my current novel! I was just beginning to query my last MS, and I was pretty discouraged, so she suggested I focus on something else. I had a couple different ideas and I ran them all by her. When I started explaining them out loud, we both realized that one of those ideas was a lot more detailed than the rest. She told me that one sounded the most interesting.

That conversation really flipped a switch in my brain - a few weeks later, I had a complete first chapter.

There are a handful of people I talk to about my writing, but I can only talk about it once I've started it. If it's still a little spark of an idea I can't talk about it yet. Once it's started, though, the people I do talk about it with hear about it a LOT.

I can't tell just anyone, though. They have to be close friends.

How much do I share of an idea before I write it? Not so much. I don't know that it kills the muse exactly, but it seems to derail things if I go into too much detail. Even after the actual writing has started, I don't often say too much. Every now and then I'll mention something in a blog post or on my fb writer page, kind of like a teaser, but I don't go into the actual plot or even give characters' names.

Oooh, tricky. I think discussing an idea is a part of the process that has to be figured out. I generally can't keep quiet, but find that I get better reactions if I just hunker down, do the work, and talk later. But that's only a recent discovery.

However, when I hit a snag I definitely start asking my friends random questions that relate to the story. Stuff like: "What would you do if you found out the man/woman you loved was a robot? Would you go all Crying Game?" "When is it okay to bring your chihuahua on safari?" "Tell me your philosophy of magenta."

Mostly I get funny looks.

Like others here, I don't like to talk about what I'm writing. Maybe it's a superstitious thing.

Too much. I figure things out as I write them out or talk them out, so the trouble is that people think I'm going with the first idea I talk about. Usually that's just my starting point so when I come back with the more developed plot, they say 'whoa...I thought you were doing this..." Oops.

Normally I tend to keep the ideas to myself. The only time I'll share is if I'm beginning to jot down ideas or really get started on it, in which case I'll talk to my husband about it and that's it!

My husband is my silent partner as my story winds through each new or unexpected twist or turn. He's invaluable as sounding board, critic and fan. I'll also feed my mother excerpts as she's painfully honest in her observations and a stickler for accuracy and good grammar She's my biggest fan and my toughest critic.

If I talk about an idea, it's dead. It's not that I'm worried someone will "steal" my idea. I lose my energy for it. I know several writers who LOVE to talk about what they're working on and get frustrated with me when I won't do the same. I've found a few other pitfalls in sharing ideas: 1) someone invariably says, "Oh, that kind of sounds like NAME OF FAMOUS BOOK" or 2) the people I shared the idea with constantly ask, "So how is PROJECT X coming?" as if every time they see me I should be done with it.

But mostly: talking about an idea to other people kills the energy.

I always keep it to myself. Once I've written something then I start to take it out of its secure place to be ridiculed and flailed about.

I've only written the one, so I can't call it a trend or anything, but I definitely did not talk about it much before at least finishing the first draft.

I think talking the idea out with someone is beneficial in that they can help strengthen your fledgling plot and help iron out some holes before you put the first word down. I usually run an idea by either my wife who is an English professor or a friend who is also a writer. I trust their judgement as to whether my idea is interesting enough to pursue. I discussed the ideas for the last two novels I wrote with them and I feel they came out better than just winging it and hoping the idea was exciting to someone other than me.

I find that, while talking it out can take away some of the 'magic' of an idea, it really helps me identify the strengths and weaknesses of my idea. My one rule: the person I'm sharing my idea with MUST be familiar with the genre I'm planning on writing in.

I've found through hard experience that if I bounce ideas off someone who doesn't appreciate the genre in general, they're not going to understand the idea or appreciate the setting I'm couching it in. And when your confidant gives a blank, lifeless stare or a raised eyebrow and skeptical critique, it becomes at least twice as hard to believe in your idea (and, thus, to write it).

I sometimes share with my boyfriend, who mostly reads non-fiction and doesn't necessarily "get" the kinds of genres I tend to read or write. I would probably prefer not to share it with someone who might actually WANT to read it until I have something down. I wouldn't want to feel discouraged if anyone thought my idea sounded like crap as I have enough of my own doubts already! :)

I only share ideas with my hubby. For me, talking about the ideas out loud actually helps spark more ideas. Not to mention, it helps refine the thoughts I have already and really get to the core of the themes.

Does it kill the magic if I say it out loud? Not at all. Sometimes it helps me focus. Besides, my agent likes her authors to discuss their story ideas with her before diving in to the writing. I'm all for that sort of brainstorming help. I always tell tell my husband. Beyond that, I'll tell anyone who directly asks what the story is about, keeping it as vague as I'm comfortable with.

I can't talk about it till I'm deep into it, and even then it's doubtful. It dies once I say it out loud, and then if I get that blank look of enhhh...it's toast.

So I prefer to wait till I know it's wonderful. LOL. I'm needy that way.

Does it cripple you with doubts if the person you're telling doesn't get it?

YES! Which is why I usually avoid it at first. I'm not a good elevator pitch person. And I've had the experience of jabbering on, only to have the person across from me sort of glaze over with "HUH? You really think you can pull that off?" And then I usually end with something like "well I've got to play with it for awhile" If I want immediate feedback on some section of my novel, then I don't have a problem bouncing it off of someone, but big, nebulous, crux of the novel sort of issues...can't share until I've written it.

I'm a strong believer that talking about your project is a good way to use up its energy. That's why you want to do it so bad, because that energy is just itching to get out. So put it on the paper.

That's how it seems to work for me

I find that if I let too much out of the bag ahead of time, I lose some of the drive to tell the story. So I stick with a general one line description that, hopefully, leaves them wanting to know more.

Ideas are tinker toys to me. I play with them in my head, and I don't have to worry about anyone breaking them. So, no I don't share my ideas until they are in a shareable format eg a completed story.

I talk to my writers' group about the theme and concept, ask them about stuff that I need to work out. But if I talk too much, I think I start short-handing the scenes themselves because on some level I think "well, they already know that." But the reader doesn't -- it's just the people I've spoken to! :( Once I'm deep in the draft, I stop talking.

I spent several hours once telling my entire story to a close friend, and I not only found it inspirational but was encouraged when he exclaimed that I simply must get it written. He was stunned by how much detail I knew about a book that I had only begun.

I find that talking out the story with someone helps me to come up with even more ideas.

I bombard my family with the stories I write. I can't help myself, I just want to share the excitement.

Once in a while, I'll bring up an problematic issue with my critique partner, but really I do most of my rambling to my family.

From past experiences, I have learned to get it on paper (in my computer) first before saying anything to anyone because it seems that if I talk about it, I feel a certain satisfaction.

Stories and ideas burn with excitement to be accomplished and talking about them before solidifying the idea seems to deflate the drive, take the wind out of the sales, or something.

So, I work on something first before sharing.

I'm super selective about who I share my writing with. There are a few people (4 to be specific) that I have no issue letting them read my book. I don't discuss to much about the plot with most of them only 1 or 2 actually. I like honest reactions of horror or laughter at events I write. I just followed you because of this post. Very cool.
feel free to stop by my blog anytime.
melyndarockinthecrazy.blogspot.com

Because I never really know where a story is going until I've written it,I can usually only give a general idea of what the book's about, so I don't tend to tell a lot of people. But I usually have a glib one-liner I can hand out: "oh, it's about drunk driving," or "It's a western set in the Australian goldrush'.

When I wrote my first novel, I kept it very close to my chest. I shared it with one person, who happened to be involved in the personal history the book was loosely based on. But beyond that, only three or four people even knew I was writing, let alone what I was writing about.

Then I got some writing friends, and starting sharing stuff with my husband more. With my second book I discovered that when I'm stuck, bouncing ideas off another intelligent, literate person can be really helpful.

I'm now working on my third novel, a MG fantasy, and I've got my kids and my son's whole class in on the act as I revise. It's fun and they all have great ideas for improvement. I thought talking about my ideas would kill them, but I've found the opposite to be the case.

I tell my ideal reader, aka 'hubby' and we discuss ideas in the forming stages. After I've written some of the story, then I bring my excellent crit partner (whom I trust) into the picture to get her feel for the characters, etc.

I don't share it on public sites if I think the idea is different enough, mainly because 'It's My Precious' and you can't have it. Anything creative becomes one of our 'little darlings'.

Sharing is great if you choose to do that, but one must remember that writers get their ideas from anywhere, including forums, and other public sites. I write mysteries too, so I'm suspicious of everyone's motives - well nearly.

My muse doesn't like too many people cluttering up the equation.

I definitely don't tell anyone. I think, as others have said, I'm too susceptible to anything negative: why would so and so do this, isn't that just like this other idea, etc. etc. etc. If it comes at one of those points where you are convinced everything you've written is complete rubbish and you need to start over, it can be pretty devastating.

My husband is my soundboard while I'm drafting. He gets my brain (amazing) and it helps to vocalize some of my ideas, helps me see how sturdy they are. But I've learned to keep my mouth shut around other people until at least a first draft is done and even then I'm pretty private.

I go back and forth with this. It really depends on who I tell. If someone gets as excited as me about the idea then it was well worth it, but when another person doesn't get it, well that sends the worry fairy to my door.

I have to write it without telling anyone what it's about. Typically, I think my ideas are pretty solid, but I feel ridiculous when I voice them. It's always better for me to just write, then let others read it and tell me what they think.

An epiphany in the night... a vision of delight...a secret someone whispering a some odd and subtle sound bite...
we do not holler these scenes out to the wild, wide world. We keep them close, and carry and cradle them until they are fully grown, and no longer our own.

Cheers!

My husband and my best female friend (who also writes) knows some basic info, so I can bounce ideas off them if I need to. But, if I shared too much of the story I wouldn't need to write to get the story out.

I don't generally share my ideas while it isn't written. People in my country are lazy enough to steal them - and then I can do nothing about it.

Of course, the run of the mill idea thief should be slightly insane to take on my Beast of an epic.

:-)

Funny, I was just thinking about this. When the story first starts gestating, I keep it to myself while it ripens. Then there's the BIG DEAL day that I mention it to my boyfriend for the first time, usually after I've outlined it. But if I mentioned it any sooner, I'd feel like I was jinxing it.:)

Yes, no and maybe.

I share very little, for a couple of reasons. The most important one, of course, is that ideas change. They evolve. They grow. I'm a little past the halfway point in the book I'm writing now, and it's nothing like what I thought it was when I had The Idea. A year from now, it'll be even more different. Ideas are starting points, and they're great. But I have to get to the end (the very end, not the first draft end) to know them well enough to share them.

I keep the idea to myself. I can see how talking about it with someone might help--esp if you start with a crummy idea. But I'm always afraid talking about it will burst my little creative bubble...I need that bubble to write...

I sort of keep my idea to myself, the only one I share it with is my brother because as soon as I mention something he offers some ideas and we have a brain storming session to flesh out that idea.

Saying it, sharing it forces me to coalesce a nebula into coherent idea. If I can't, then I know the idea will make a bad story. If I can't say it, how can I write it? Or when I share it, it sounds utterly stupid, despite how it sounded in my mind. Or, best of all, I see my listener's face light up and they start asking questions. That's when I know I've got a winner.

I keep my ideas to myself - it just works better that way (at least for me it does).

Picture Book author Rebecca Johnson - I saw her at a con - recommends telling the whole plot to people out loud before writing. She says it makes them more honest (because they know you haven't just spent 300 hours making every word perfect), which is what you want. Especially at the point BEFORE you dive in, when YOU are more honest with yourself about major plot holes. But I wouldn't recommend it for your first book.

Louise Curtis

Early on, I tend to keep ideas to myself. Once I get writing and start to go off the rails, brainstorming is invaluable! Talking about ideas can save a lot of time; it's way better than spending time writing something that's a dead-end. Talking also can clarify ideas in a writers head.
Actually, the National Council of Teachers of English say in NCTE Beliefs abou the Teaching of Writing "Writing has a complex relationship to talk". :)

Oh wow. I feel so strongly about this one for me personally.

I have a strict policy of not telling anyone anything much about the story (aside from the fact that I am writing a story) until it is *finished*

This is from repeated experience of telling people in depth about a project, and then losing all motivation to write it because I feel like I've already told the story.

So, if I want to finish a story, I don't talk about it.

Thank you, Nathan.
I myself feel like cheat my loved ones when I do not share with them what I do. But at the same time if I talk to them about the story, I feel robbed.

I used to share all my ideas, but then it felt like I lost some of the magic. And it's definitely a confidence killer when the person you're talking to doesn't really understand the vision in your head. Now, I've been keeping my idea mostly to myself, although I might tease my crit partner with a chapter soon.

I share only with specific people. For instance, what I'm writing now, there is only one person with whom I I share it. She thinks like me so I know she'll get it. But she's also honest so if something doesn't work, she won't hesitate to point it out.

However, when someone finds out that I'm writing a book and ask what it's about, I always give a kind of half-cooked answer that really doesn't answer the question at all.

It's absolutely necessary for me to talk it through with someone. I usually find someone I trust and walk through the idea with them. Often their ideas help, their enthusiasm helps me gauge how good the idea really is and talking about it helps me identify potential problems. Not to mention that I get really excited and can't keep it to myself!

My family are lovely but the gloss of living with an author wore off years ago. These days I keep nearly everything to myself and surprise them with a finished draft.

I'm not telling.

I don't like telling too much! And when I do share snippets, I only share with other writers, my CP buddies.

I definitely am not going to tell the general public what my Shiny New Idea is because it's actually kinda unique! which is hard to snag, these days. :)

I'm with you, Munk. Couldn't possibly reveal this professional secret. :-)

Personally, I think it's always good to be cautious.

Going around telling your idea to everyone (and anyone) who will listen is probably not the best approach, especially if a writer hasn't fully developed or properly executed the idea yet. At the same time, not wanting to talk about it at all can potentially signal a lack of confidence or a excess of fear, which probably isn't going to help when it comes to querying and (hopefully) publishing the finished product. Plus, it's always good to get feedback at some point. That "point," however, might change with each writer.

John August posted a similar question on his blog a little while ago-- http://johnaugust.com/archives/2011/when-to-talk-about-your-idea. It's geared more towards screenwriting, but I think the creative process is the creative process and different writers just have to figure out what's best for them.

I have one friend in particular that I always turn to when I have a new idea. Whenever I talk to her about them, we work out all the problems.

I like to write it first, and then show it to the world. But, before I do all that, I turn it over and over in my mind, slowly building it up.

Monica
thisismybookonly.blogspot.com

I usually don't share my ideas before I write them, mainly because I know that everyone has their own opinions about written works, so I feel like I shouldn't decide whether or not I write about an idea based on what a few others may think. Also, I am a little paranoid about theft of original ideas. Having someone else write my story is like...my worst nightmare.

Also, writing to me should always be fun and 80% should be about writing for myself and only about 20% of the writing should be for other people, if that makes sense.

~TRA

http://xtheredangelx.blogspot.com

Actually, my husband is great with plots. So brainstorming with him, before I launch into the story, is a must.

I like sharing with a few people who are close to me. But for the most part, I try to avoid giving a lot of detail to anyone other than, say, my fiance or a close family member. I like to keep it private because I want to build up suspense. If everyone and their dog around me knows the storyline, they're not going to be as intrigued, so they're less likely to buy it.

I typically don't share anything about what I'm writing. Not because it kills the idea, but because people always seem to want to know more. Or they want to chime in with their own suggestions. If I'm working on something, all I ever give out are tiny tidbits without elabroating. Then I go back to writing.

There's only been one or two times I've diviluged oodles of information - to a couple of best friends and that was on my first book when I was excited to be writing something massive for the first time.

I drive my wife crazy telling her about my ideas for the book. It helps me think them through. It usually involves me saying a few sentences then screaming, "Oh, I just thought of something!" and running into my study to write my new idea down. She has no idea how much she helps me by just listening.

I've always thought it's not so much the idea that's important, it's what you do with it - how you implement it. I know from experience two writers can have similiar plot ideas, but the better writer can make so much more of those ideas and have great success; whereas those ideas that aren't brought to life with as much style, flair and great characterisation will fail.

Further, I think if we talk about our ideas before they're realised on the page, there's the chance we're not doing them justice with the explanation. A poor reaction could reduce our confidence causing the story to be abandoned. So perhaps from that viewpoint, it's safer to wait until the ideas can be brought to life on the page before they are shared. Then they can be more fairly judged to be working or not.

Some of the greatest story ideas can sound ridiculous in theory, but if handled with flair and imagination, they really sing. Take, for example, the Seinfeld TV show. I believe when George and Jerry where shopping their ideas for the show, they were describing it as a show about nothing or where very little drama or plotting happened: it was mainly about the inconsequentials of normal human lives. But with the great scripts and interesting characters - plus the fascination of watching these ultra realistic life situations - made for compelling viewing.

I've learned not to share with my family. On the otherhand I do keep updates on wordpress and have offered a poll on some of the things I'm doing so that I can get some feedback. I also enjoy reading the comments and hearing new ideas from what other writers see and offer.

I talk to my husband about my ideas for new writing projects, and I talk to him about some of my newer ideas for the project as I develop it. I don't ask him to read the book or short story until it's completed, though, except if I get stuck and need an opinion, because my husband and I notice that if we read the same material over and over again, we stop noticing details as clearly. After a project’s completed, I’m happy to consult an Editor or publisher, but I don’t talk about it with the world until after it’s published. Until my work’s actually published, I’m always open to changing it, and I’m more hesitant to change a story if I’ve already discussed it publicly. (In regard to my science fiction novel, GODS IN THE MACHINE, for example, I’m now working on the third version, with several new characters and a new plot, and I’m glad I didn’t put excerpts online because I’d be much less likely to want to change or delete sections that were already posted on the Internet.)

I start with a situation and ask a "what do you think about " question to my wife. She read each chapter as I finish the rough draft and keeps me in check.

Before writing it? Not much. During writing? A fair amount. My muse must be hard to kill.

When is it okay to bring your chihuahua on safari? What is your philosophy of magenta? Jenny, in Ireland we talk of little else. I think Nathan found his chihuahua on safari.

And what say you, Nathan? I mean about sharing your ideas first, not about chihuahuas.

I'm in two critique groups, and will sometimes discuss ideas about other projects with them. They've been wonderful with the works in progress now, so I trust their advice.

I tell people; a lot of the time, they give good advice.

I tend to go on about it to my family for a couple days. Usually the whole idea doesn't surface until I get a synopsis and some character study underway, but I don't tend to keep much of it to myself. In return, my family has saved me from a bad plot mistake more than once. ;)

Writing is normally such a solitary experience, I take every chance I have to make it an experience between people. There's only a few people I talk to about my ideas, though, because they're the writers; if I talk about my ideas with anyone else, I tend to get really superficial responses like "Oh, that sounds great!"

And while that's an awesome thing for your friends to tell you about your writing, that's not what I need when I'm telling someone about my idea.

Sharing your writing makes it better. Friends are able to give you different perspectives on your ideas and they make it easier to get through the bad moments of writer's block or a lack of inspiration.

I talked about ideas with my critique partner and my family have some idea about the stories I have out. I don't like telling the world though, as the idea might not work out or change completely.

Great topic for writers, and I found the comments really interesting. It's interesting - maybe people are different.

For me, I really, really, really want to share my new bright shiny idea, but I've found that's dangerous and I have to be careful. I'm easily discouraged. It's a shame - I'm struggling right now with following up on an idea that some people didn't like, and with the best of intentions, gave me 'constructive feedback'.

Arrgghh. No, don't give me constructive feedback!! Eeek. And I don't want other people's ideas about my idea either. That derails me. It needs to be purely mine, or I lose energy for it, for some reason.

On the other hand, I've found if I do share my idea, and someone loves it, I get all energized and enthusiastic. So, I think what I really need are people in my life who will say the following:

"Oh my god, that's incredible. That's the best idea for a book I have ever heard in my life. You have to write this or the world will forever mourn the loss of such a masterpiece. Stop talking right and write. Write, write, write, and don't come out until you're done. Write!"

That would probably get me writing.

I'm just saying.

I used to have one writing partner I would eagerly share every idea with, but she passed away several years ago.

I have not found another writing partner that I share ideas with, but I do like to get very early feedback from crit partners or groups. Once I have what amounts to a polished first draft, I go to people for feedback or help with places I'm stuck.

So although I no longer share at the idea phase, I still find that early collaborative experience is vital to knowing if I'm on the right track or if I need to rethink some things.

I actually enjoy talking out my ideas with my friends. I bounce off my ideas and they tell me if it's too crazy... Or not crazy enough...

Since I'm a writing-by-the-seat-of-my-pants type of gal, I not only don't discuss the idea in detail, I literally can not. Still, I give people random tidbits about the setting or concept as they occur to me, and it's wonderful to be able to gauge enthusiasm or lack thereof at an early stage.

None of it. I find if I talk about it I lose the impetus to write it.

I'm very much a talker. I moved four hours from my hometown and I'm lost without my girlfriend to bounce things off of. Her advice is excellent when she gives it, but usually I just tell what I'm thinking. Ninety percent of it never sees type, but a lot of the fun is in making up silly parts.

That said, when I've hit my stride writing, there are days when it can be hard to get me to talk period, I'm inside my head so completely. Happened more when I didn't have a day job though.

I usually talk it out with my husband. I get an honest opinion, and I get to hear myself think, which helps a lot. Sometimes talking it out helps me work out the kinks.

I bounce ideas off my writing group and closest beta readers. I don't do it with strangers.

If you share with the wrong person, & they just don't get it, it can kill a friendship, at least for the time being, until you get over it. Makes you realize how attached you are to your little baby! Critique groups are great. Especially the non-verbal communication--which you don't get with e-mail critique, of course. If there's a blank, polite look on their faces, it's a big clue that your writing isn't clear.

Story ideas pop into my head all the time, but I have a 48-hour rule. If I'm still thinking about it after two days, then I'll probably start jotting it down, maybe even writing a first chapter. If it's different from what I normally write, then I'll run it by my agent and a couple of trusted writer friends.

I share tidbits here and there like pics of my characters, their names, etc. But the plot I keep to myself until it's there on the pages. Years past, I talked about my ideas but I was ridiculed for even thinking I could write a book, so that's stuck with me. I've just come to the point, where I'm taking your advice and opening up a page on FB and letting the cat out of the bag. We'll see where we go from here.

I think it depends on the story, but almost every aspect of my long work is reviewed (at least the idea is) by someone else, either before or imediately after I commit it to paper. I find that talking through ideas with my wife and writer friends saves me a considerable amount of time editing on the back end. That said, if an idea is ready to burst out or if it's a short piece, I tend to stay "nose-down" and writing without regard... They can give critique latter, when I have time to worry about that. :)

Early in the process, I keep ideas cooking with the lid on until I decide I'm comfortable getting feedback on the plot, just to see if it's an idea that catches attention. This has helped me avoid some projects that I later realized had weak legs, but also gave me a rush on my current WIP when I described it to someone who was half-listening. At the end she said, "that sounds awesome, I'd see that", and freaked when she realized I was describing a book idea, not a movie that was coming out soon. It gave me confidence to know the bare bones of my story were capable of getting people excited.

With my most recent idea, the thoughts were occurring to me while on a long drive with a friend, so we were playing "what if..." for most of the car ride. By the end, what I thought would be a short story could easily be a full-length novel. I loved it, but that isn't my MO.

Writing comes easier than speaking for me--so I find it especially difficult to verbalize unformed ideas. It always feels like I've sold them short. Once you say an idea aloud, it becomes REAL--and that stops the magical creation process--leaving it like an undercooked meal. You can put it back in the oven but it's never as good as if you had left it there all along.

My feeling is: "How can I know what I think until I see what I say?"

I always tell my husband. He always responds with, "I'll have to see how it works out when you write it."
It's frustrating, because I'm looking for feedback on the idea (a "brilliant" would be nice), but he has a valid point. I'm always so sad when a book cover sets up an incredible premise and then delivers an unoriginal story.
I'll keep telling him my ideas because I need to hear them out loud, but I only share them with him. He's the only one I know who won't try to give suggestions, and I need my stories to be mine.

I keep my mouth shut until the second draft. The first draft is usually too fluid to discuss anyway.

I talk about my stories as soon as I think of them. Well, the ones that are worth anything. I bounce ideas off my friends and see what they think. After all, who better to ask about YA fiction than a group of YA kids?

I love brainstorming. I don't believe ideas belong to anyone, they have a certain life and energy of their own, and I think brainstorming is the best way to road-test their hardiness. If an idea is strong, it will survive questioning - or evolve into one that can.

I share everything with my wife, she's my best brainstorming companion.

I do think that talking more generally, outside the safe wifespace, can sap my motivation, though. If I talk about an idea in general terms too much, the impetus to write it fizzles out, as I feel as though I've already done something with it just by yammering about it!

My friends talk me out of bad ideas all the time;they would also talk me out of good ideas. So I only talk about bad ideas that seem compelling to me.

OH WOW! I love the frozen bubbles! If it gets cold enough here to do that my six year old will be filled with joy. Frozen bubble joy.

Can't find the link for Jennifer's article....

I kind of love that Gertrude Stein sentence, even if the editor inside of me had a little bit of a panic attack while reading it.

Stanley Fish is SUCH an academic, with a list that implies nothing good was written after 1835.

So here's one of my favorite sentences from 1998, in part because the certain Oklahoma newspaper deleted a certain adjective beginning with F -- and now I get to correct that injustice.

"Fortunately for us, The World's Largest Roadside Attractions brings us the freakin' huge, sliced and diced in handy-dandy ways to help us hapless tourists find on the finest in huge mutant fiberglass things."

So there, Stanley. (Word verification: "daing," You're daing right it is.)

Yes, a crazy winter here on the East Coast. My arms are throbbing today from all the shoveling yesterday.

From the article Stanley Fish's Top Five Sentences—Now with Reader Contest!: Fish describes how he carries sentences with him "as others might carry a precious gem or a fine Swiss watch."

What an excellent analogy. Haunting sentences from novels and books I've read are written down all over the place: journals, Post-Its, books and Macaroni Grill table cloths. This is the exact reason I got my English degree and write.

Thanks for the links!

Yay, first time posting and I'm in the top 10! All I had to do was stay up 'til 3am. Unfortunately I don't have anything insightful to say. But how cool are frozen bubbles. Very cool.

thanks anon, fixed.

Frozen bubbles - better living through science entertainment. Love it. :)

I used to think I would love to live where it snowed all the time.

...I'm beginning to change that thought. Save me from the snow! Send me some hot weather, Nathan!

After seeing Fish's top five sentences, I think I'm somewhere in-between what he prefers and what EB White prefers. I don't like Gertrude Stein's run-on sentences, although she had good taste in the artists she kept around her.

Checked out the interview with Bryan (INK) by Matt, and yes it was well done. I love the humour in the evaluation. Good Luck Bryan with THE DREAM OF CROWS. Great work, Matt on the interview.

I'll have to check the other links over the weekend. Have a good one, everyone. Happy reading Nathan.

Nathan. You've got to stop mentioning me on your blog. It makes me sound way cooler than I really am.

On the other hand, Bryan really is that cool, so read the post people, and then follow it over to his blog. He's so much more awesome than me, but only gets half the traffic. Which is wrong.

As to the rest of your post I've just opened three tabs based off of all your links. No I'm not telling you which ones, and no I haven't read them yet, but I will say I wish there was time to read them all!

You, my friend, are awesome.

Nathan, new to twitter.Went to Peru last year and climbed Mt.Salkantay,17,000'and hit the Amazon. Hung out with the Queros. Amazing.

I do quite agree that the 5 sentences Slate examined are interesting and impressive, but I wish they’d included some more recent examples. Few people write in the same style as Bunyan or Swift anymore, and I’m not sure the market would support them if they did. The sentences do cover a wide span of time; I just wish that span extended a little closer to the present. (Fish’s book seems interesting, though. I will have to check it out. Perhaps on my Kindle!)

Query posts are always great. I don't mind if you keep them coming.

I never knew that about Nabokov! It’s always interesting to learn about the secret lives or second careers of well-known authors, especially those so well-known for only one or two works.

Tammy’s line is really making me think now. I totally get what she means about a “seemingly impossible” line; there are definitely a few I’ve read in my lifetime that have made me do a double-take and ask, “Wait, did that just happen?” I’ll have to add “seemingly impossible” to my list of things to evaluate in revisions.

Tsk.. tsk.. tsk..

Lack of agent-muscle stretching has made you soft, Nathan. Last year, you'd have had all the entries read, alphabetized, weighed, and color-coded twenty-seven seconds after the close of comments.

:-P

Those 5 sentences are... um... interesting choices. And the frozen bubbles were definitely awesome. I have now seen bubbles both burn and freeze.

JohnO: Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree with you, but I think Fish is on to something with his new book. I'll have to read it to critique it.

I wanna give a shout out to Strunk and White. If someone had handed me the text when I was 15 not 25, I would have been spared much heartache as an undergrad.

Great links! I'm gonna have to look into that book on sentences. The obsession continues...

And frozen bubbles? That just rocks. I love the slow motion where you can see the ice crystals as they start spanning the little globes.

Thanks for linking.

I'm not surprised that film was made at Mt. Washington, home of extreme weather. But Josin McQuein, now I want to see flaming bubbles!

@jennifer r. hubbard

The flaming bubbles are insane. We had a guy in our science class in HS that used the gasline from the Bunsen burner to make bubbles with bubble solution. He'd pop them with an Aim N' Flame and make little flame spurts.

It was insane (in the "Hey, kids, don't try this at home" kind of way), but our teacher let us play with fire for some odd reason.

Wish I would have tried the frozen bubbles for my science website last week when it was subarctic here in Minnesota. Lots of people flung boiling water in the air and watched it turn to snow before it hit the ground, but my kids would have LOVED this. I wonder what the Mentos/Diet Coke geyser would look like at -20. Hmmm.

Love the frozen bubbles!

Last year you announced the finalists as Dwight Schrute. I think it was Draper the year before. Tyra was in there somewhere as well I think. Just wanted to toss out some suggestions-

Bunk from The Wire
Tigh from BSG
House
Tracey Jordan from 30 Rock

Cusco is 11,000 feet up? So you briefly replaced Kristin Nelson as the world's top literary agent! Denver is only 10,000 feet up.

But red shirts, Nathan? Of course, you are more a Star Warrior than a Trekkie, but still risky.

Seriously, bravo on the voluntouring!

The ebooks out selling paperbacks isn't a surprise. Strunk and white's little book is a favourite and I wish I'd had it earlier. I'm not keen on Stanley Fish's top five. The bubbles are very cool.

ya know the problem with ebooks...?
they just don't stack like regular books....

Loved the articles on sentences. (Makes me wish I had read them *before* I posted my paragraph...)

Aw, Matt. Nathan called you a friend. I am so jealous!

Thanks for the great links, as usual!

The slow mo image of the bubble is stunningly beautiful. Fun video! Brrrr...

Oooo, pretty bubbles.

I think the best sentence is the world is this:

In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit.

You know who wrote that! :)

I love first sentences. They're fun to write, too.

So, thanks for all the links, Nathan. I'll be reading them next week after I finish my papers and such, so no comments today, but a very big thank you. So much information! Truly appreciated.

And that's very cool about Bryan. Can't wait until we can read the book for his query! Hurry and finish up, Bryan.

Okey doke - hope everyone's having fun and is nice and warm

Awww, the contest comments for the best 1st paragrah has been closed. I'm guessing it probably crashed? Or you, Nathan, saw the amount of people that entered and quailed at what you had done? Well, at least I've been put off from ever trying to become an agent because after the first hundred I started skim reading and stoppped paying attention.

Nathan, How do you find time to write? You read 1500 paragraphs and gave us a great roundup of the blog circuit for the week. I am in awe of your accomplishments. Okay off to check out your links

Good strong dialogue, or at least introduce me to the characters. If I don’t know them, how can I care what happens to them?

Don’t blow me away with action in the first sentence.

One opening paragraph here by Leatherdykeuk introduces his character as a cop before letting us know he must go a murder scene. Although I don’t normally read cop stories, I would read that book because I already care about the character.

Some opening paragraphs are confusing because of the wordiness and prepositional phrases.

Simply “show” the first four of the five W’s…who, what, where, and why, and save the last one, how, for the rest of the book.

Thanks again, Nathan for all the instruction, guidance, links, and caring that you put into your blogs. In trying to set up a blog, I feel like I am looking at assembly instructions written in another language. I managed to my picture up and my website, but walked away with my hands up in the air. I enjoyed your blog about Twitter and plan to study it thoroughly. After this contest is over, how about a blog about how to set up and blog for us blogger newbies?

Lucy

If that first paragraph or page can make me feel something, then I am interested. Whatever the feeling- excitement, sadness, envy, joy, love, it has to make me feel something.

I agree with Kevin, I must be drawn into a place where I would like to be, with people I want to know and will sympathize with. I want beautiful writing.
All the answers to Nathan's question are so different it makes me realize that the only way to satisfy myself as a writer is to write what I like to read. There are readers out there who feel the same, whatever that may be.

I used to stick to my favorite authors, but now that I'm studying writing, I push myself out of my comfort zone. I'll buy/borrow books that have won awards or are bestsellers, even if I don't love their openings, just to study the craft. I've learned a lot this way, but if I hate a book at the 1/3 point, I will put it down, since life isn't THAT long.

Conflict, questions, tension. Not long descriptive narratives.

Great question, Nathan.

I like to see that the technical side is working with great word choice that enables me to form a vivid picture and feeling for what the author is describing; also, I love a fantasy element to be present. But most important of all, I desire beauty and sweetness to be there in a way that uplifts and inspires me to be a better person. A bonus is if the author has worked something completely original into the story he or she is presenting, something I hadn't thought of before in regard to philosophical insights, or in the way they present the story on the stylistic side of things.

Matthew, your wish is granted, but with apologies to Amanda:-

It was a dark and stormy night. I awoke from a dream just in time to see the lusty barmaids leap over the bar, swords in hand, to attack the space monkeys who had just rushed in.

'You brought swords to a ray gun fight?' the Head Space Monkey laughed as he and his hirsute comrades pointed their massive ray guns at the nubile young (maybe?)maidens. 'Take off your clothes!'

'What clothes? the Chief Lusty Barmaid asked.

'Oh,' said the Head Space Monkey. 'That's your skin? No fur except on the head? Our knowledge of human anatomy is limited. But we intend to greatly expand it within the next few minutes.'

I leaped to my feet, which were still stuck to the ceiling where I'd left them, slapped them on and lay into the space monkeys with a flurry of Kung Fu blows so fast and intricate they were a blur to all, including me. My hands were lethal weapons! Also my tongue, nose and left earlobe.

Soon the space monkeys all lay comatose on the beer-soaked sawdust of the stone-flagged floor. And the lusty young nubile (probably not)maiden barmaids stood unmolested. Which did not seem to please them.

'It is the Warrior Of Questionable Virtue!' the Chief Lusty Barmaid said, leering at me. 'Oh great WOQV! Answer but one question and we are all yours for the night!'

'As long as it's not about sports,' I said.

'What is the a priori purpose or raison d'etre for primate existence in this 23rd century?' she asked.

I pondered her query. For about 2.5 seconds. 'Whatever!' I shrugged.

'Close enough!' the Naked Nubile Lusty Young Chief Barmaid said. 'Let's dance!'

'I hope you mean 'dance' as a metaphor for sexual intercourse,' I told her. 'And not literally. Because I have two left feet. Literally. Oh wait. One's just on backwards.' I rearranged my right foot. 'And I'll probably need a little chi manipulation after.'

Grab my empathy and the rest of me will follow.

The premise is a big draw. If I'm interested in the premise, I can fight through a few pages of less than sparkling prose until things start getting juicy. But a really snappy first page can keep me reading a book that I might not have been so interested in to start with.

I want to feel an emotional connection to the mc....

An intriguing voice - a hook that snags any of my emotions (love, fear, humor, curiosity, etc.) and a lyrical flow of words.

I love to hear about people's stories, whether fiction or nonfiction, and when I see that in the first few pages, I am hooked!

@Jil

"All the answers to Nathan's question are so different it makes me realize that the only way to satisfy myself as a writer is to write what I like to read."

Well said.

I like the first line to be short and seemingly impossible.

The idea of interesting secondary characters. I am the sort that VERY VERY VERY rarely enjoys the main character. I pick a character to vouch for and read on because I want to see what happens to them and what they do.

A promising premise can grab me too. Like, the idea that a child can write into a book and effect life in a nearby town. Or that a government "reaps" teenagers and makes them battle to the death. Or a secret submarine way before its time. The premise of a novel usually wraps up the pull.

I am a huge fan of book openings. I can spend hours just reading the first few lines of books at the store, however, for me what type of beginning begs to be read thoroughly? I don’t much like a jarring entry into a world I know little about with dialogue. I like to be rooted in my surroundings, presented with a titillating question that can only be revealed by reading the pages ahead. Don’t give me a grocery list of names or start off with confusing data though, I want to be submersed in the story before being thrown information that would otherwise put me into overload is I weren’t so involved in the characters yet.

Some want to grab the reader immediately in the first paragraph, while others (like myself) prefer to use the whole first chapter for that and are content to start a bit more sedately. I think the latter folks are at a disadvantage in contests like this, naturally.

I want to get a sense of the voice and the genre as soon as possible. The first paragraph doesn't need to be clever, but if it offers some kind of theme then the reader can identify if that will grab them fairly quickly. Some stories are just that: stories. Others are stories with purpose (e.g. to bridge a gap between ---, to explore ----, to invite----) If that is the writer's intent then I would want a hint of this very early on so I can read metaphors, time changes, flashbacks etc within that context. Who knows, some work and some don't, some writers have it instinctively and some learn it. Still learning!!

This is, of course, very difficult to define. But if I get the feeling that the author is thinking "I am an author telling a story (and aren't I clever!)", I immediately pass. I want the paragraph to read "I am this character, telling my story." So the author needs to believe in what s/he is writing and really feel the characters. It doesn't have to be a first person narrator, mind you, as long as the characters' personality comes through.

I clearly see this in many of the entries, and it is always captivating. In others, the author may have focused too much on jamming a lot into the first paragraph, or grabbing the reader at the expense of the characters.

I also think the character needs to be introduced subtly, through little touches. "I, Catherine Elizabeth Smith, a 16-year-old member of the Littlewood High School Glee Club"-type openings tend to put me off. Instead, give me something like "The Glee Club rehearsal was beginning, and I felt the usual trepidation..." Setting+feeling works better than full name, age, and town the character lives in.

I know this is a cultural difference (I'm Finnish), but the American style of introducing all characters with their full name irks me. It makes me feel more distant to them. I'd rather know someone as Catherine than Catherine Smith. I don't even think every character needs to be named right off the bat. This seems to be a difference between Finnish and American literatures.

Writing that is vivid, yet has missing details which kindle questions in your mind.

I like unique, specific language. It all comes down to the voice.

I usually read on for funny or a voice that resonates in my head. It's the reason I post new first lines/paragraphs. I've gotten some amazing reads from that. Places I wouldn't ordinarily go. I just finished Runaway Storm by D Knobbe and can't wait for the second one. I am thing about posting my ten favorite books from last year culled from those first line/paragraphs but it would be a difficult choice.

Great question Nathan.

I like a good opening hook that makes me go "hmmmm, what's going to happen next?" I don't have the patience with books that want to spend a lot of time setting up a story before they get into the meat of it. I want to dive right in.

I also love a strong character that takes me by the hand and walks me alongside them.

Debbie

I need two things to keep reading: emotional involvment and a sense of something happening.

This entry really jumped out at me as case in point:

I was six and nowhere to be found. My mother organized a search party - herself and a bottle of tequila - and wafted around the house, warbling my name in a tone more lonely than worried.

Defintely emotion here and something happening - a little kid hiding from a drunken mother.

Very impressed! I tried for the same two things in my first pargraph, but the result was not nearly as succinct, subtle and yet powerful.

If I've decided to read based on cover blurb or recommendation, i will usually plow on unless it is annoying or the language is cumbersome.

A story that immediately plunges the reader into the action.

For me, it's the promise of an emotional experience. This can be through immediate action, lyrical prose, a vicious hook that won't let go. Whatever. I just want to know I am in the hands of someone who can deliver words that make me want to turn off my alarm clock and burrow under the covers for a few days. Someone who understands what the six most powerful words in the English language are.
"Let me tell you a story."

I am another "jacket reader", I must confess. I have rarely been disappointed with a book I've taken home or picked up to read, after being impressed with the jacket synopsis. If the synopsis grabs me, I'll read the book. Two books I picked up recently were "The Book Thief" (Markus Zusak) and "We Never Talk About My Brother" (Peter S. Beagle). Love 'em!

The opening paragraph means little to me. I realize I'm in the minority. When I peruse books in the store, I turn to the middle. Sometimes, gasp!, the end.

I tend to give stories and writers the benefit of the doubt. But if a short story hasn't introduced itself and its problem in the first 250 words or if a novel doesn't give me a direction to tread in the first chapter, I rarely read on.

The Miller article was definitely thought provoking.

I appreciate the link to Janet Reid's post on the difference between a pitch and a query. I plan to attend my first sci-fi convention in March because it includes a writer's workshop and the possibilty of pitching my WIP is a real possibility.

Ira Glass streams epiphanies in an everyday voice.
I could listen for hours. Thanks for posting.

Lol, I always give my wife crap for the double space. She even does it when texting. I'm gonna send her that link for sure!

And that article about the internet is interesting. Do you think its because a lot of writers seem to skip out on the pop culture of the times as to not date their book? I had so many of my beta readers ask me that - if I was worried that my book was too specific in time and place - because the first few drafts of my WIP made a LOT of references to popular media of a certain time (namely, my lifespan.) (I've since toned it down.) Frame of reference is good and you don't wanna confuse people with vague reference, but are we too concerned with keeping a book "timeless"? I'm reading China Mieville's Kraken and I LOVE how "in the now" it is, with talk of texting, social media, punk music, chat rooms and networking. Its specific to a generation really, but is that a bad thing?

Just some thoughts. Anyway, I'm rambling all over your blog so I will stop now. Sorry about the mess. I'm a terrible house guest.

I, too, was a bit irritated at the tone of the two-space article. I am 40 years old and learned to type as a teenager. Of all the nasty habits I've acquired over the years, THAT'S the one he wants me to worry about??

I was going to at least try to drop the 2nd space, but now I think not. The way I see it, I'm doing these people a favor. How else are they going to look down their noses at the rest of us if we take this away from them?

Kathryn, the bookstore segment on The Office last night was hilarious!

And since e-readers are taking over, I guess we don't have to worry about saving paper anymore with just one space after a period. Personally, I like two spaces from a period. I also like two spaces from a stranger in a movie theater, especially when they're on their phone.

I'm a trained two-spacer, but now I have another copy of my ms that uses the one space rule. Had to. Just signed a contract with a publisher who required it. That was a convincer.

Weird word verification: skinglu. Self-defined.

According to Manjoo's article, the two space after a period "rule" came about because it made things typed with monospaced fonts more readable. So now that everyone can use fancy proportional fonts in their word processors, their manuscripts (or emails, or whatever) should use only one space after a period.

But, what if one is still using a monospaced font, such as Courier? Would two spaces after a period still be correct in this case?

And how much would a space-after-sentence faux pas hurt a manuscript's chance during submissions?

Inquiring minds want to know. Really.

*I'm a two-spacer by feel. It's just what the fingers do. Curse you, 9th grade typing class!

I'm not a huge ereader, but I love my Sony pocket ereader...so don't necessarily go for a Kindle or Nook without first checking out the Sony. The online bookstore isn't as extensive as Amazon, but it's good for an occasional eread. Being able to borrow books from the library is a plus, too.

That video was excellent! I really needed that! Thank You!

Thanks for the spacing article. I remember someone teaching me to use two spaces. It was my high school typing teacher. We learned on IBM Selectrics. Nathan, you have saved me countless keystrokes. My bones and tendons thank you.

I'm intrigued for Monday! And thanks for the video clip - very interesting. ;)

Those videos were fantastic! Thanks for sharing them- it explains why agents will say "no" to a project and ask you to send pages of the next one.

As a librarian-in-training, I'm really hoping Amazon will make it easier for libraries to lend ebooks onto Kindle devices sometime soon. I know there are "talks" about it, but it would be a great way of promoting reading and libraries. I love my Kindle, but still love print books, so it hasn't been a big issue for me yet, but I know it will be for many people in the future.

I had no idea there was still so much contention about spacing! I do two spaces because that is how I learned (and I'm 27, so it wasn't all that long ago). The article reeks of arrogance and is whiny, though. Consistency is all that matters for me. Plus, I figure it's easier to do a find-and-replace to change all the two-spaced areas to one space than to do the reverse, if anybody really cared about it (and so far, nobody has).

I used to be suuuuch a huge fan of the Baby-Sitters Club. I'm looking forward to ending this comment by going to read that post now!

Ha ha, you're so funny, Nathan. I enjoyed this post. :)

So, first, the controversial "two spaces" article - I could be wrong, but I think the Slate guy is trying to be funny/ironic/tongue in cheek. He's too subtle, which means he can be misunderstood, but I think that's his intent....

Anyway, after reading the article and the posts, I have no idea what to do, but since following rules of grammar is my mission in life, I've decided to start a new paragraph after every sentence. That way I won't be breaking any spacing rules.

So, the links are very interesting. I'm going to respond to them all now, because the post is on a diet (ha, ha!) and there's only a few of them.

A CONTEST!!! Yipee!! Yay!!! So, what kind of contest? Is it a writing contest? Can I enter the contest? Can I be the only entrant? Then I'd win. What are the prizes? Are they money? I need money. Oh boy, I can't wait. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!! Hurry up Monday, there's a contest coming!

I'm also thinking of entering the NPR short fiction contest. The guy said he is looking for pieces that are emotional and have character, so I'm thinking of entering this blog post I'm typing right now. It doesn't get much more emotional than this blog post.

I'm not sure what all the issues are around library lending for e-books, so it's a very interesting topic. I bet it's complicated.

In terms of literature not mentioning the internet, I really like what Geoff said. I agree.

I don't know what to say about the query/pitch thing, although I liked Janet Reid's post. But I have nothing to say, and certainly don't feel emotional about it. Hope this doesn't lose me the NPR contest.

You know, some of the forum threads are really funny. And I think Sommer is terrific. That video is also terrific - very informative!!


I was surprised to hear that you didn't read the Babysitter's Club because you were playing baseball and watching Star Wars, though, Nathan. I figured it was because you were a BOY and wouldn't be caught dead with that book in your hands. This, by the way, is another hidden benefit of e-readers. Now boys can read the Babysitter's club without fear. No one will know. I guess other people can secretly read some other books, too, but I can't think of other secret books right now.

Okay, that's it. Fun links, fun post, and fun contest coming up!! Does it get any better than this?

Monday, hurry, hurry!

Ira Glass is the man. Also, no offense Nathan, but having my writing come anywhere near wining anything in an NPR contest would be ... indescribable.

Re - David Katzmaier's post: Interesting facts about library lending. I have to check if we can do that on our e-reader (Kobo).

Checked out Janet Reid's difference between a pitch and a query. Very concise info. Thanks for the link.

People were writing about computers - what about TRON or its recent follow-up? Not too literary, but science fiction doesn't strive to be.

Never read the Babysitter's club, it had no appeal to me, a science fiction reader. Star Wars would have been my choice, too.

An ARC of your new book? A tantalizing prize. Will check in on Monday.

Have a great weekend! (we all deserve one)

Another comment - the one or two space disagreement. I prefer two spaces, which is a pause. One space is hardly a breath. I can see the point when a manuscript is sent via email, but how crushed up do we want our print to be?

Reading is supposed to be a pleasure, not a sprint to the finish line.

However, for submitting purposes, I follow guidelines. It just seems very inconsequential to our real life to discuss the bloody space between sentences.

That Baby-Sitters' Club spoof? Best "This Week In Books" link ever.

Contest! I heart contests! I can't wait for Monday now and boy, I can pretty much count on one hand how many times I've ever said THAT.

I am a two-space-terrorist. When I'm editing documents for the people I support at work I regularly go through and delete all their extra spaces. VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

Mira - you are terrific too and I so miss your posts! Also, your one sentence paragraphs are a lovely compromise.

I have to tell you, I clicked over to check out "This Week in Books," and my three-year-old happened to be standing right here. As soon as the page came up, he said, "What's that?!"

He was pointing, of course, to the cover of JACOB WONDERBAR AND THE COSMIC SPACE KAPOW.

So my three-year-old and I are eagerly awaiting JACOB WONDERBAR together:)

So happy to read that article about the absence of the Internet in modern fiction. The science fiction novel I'm working on right now includes a future, more evolved version of the Internet. :)

I believe two spaces are still the proper format for screenplay scripts, which are always written in Courier.

Ira Glass is a treasure. What a simple, elegant explanation of story structure. Eat your heart out, Robert McKee!

You can search / replace the two-spaces with singles easy enough.

And YAY for contests!

My daughters read the Babysitter's Club and enjoyed them (*she said, showing her age*). They liked Animorphs better though, which I actually read, and we enjoyed the TV series too. Good times!

And TWO spaces after a period--ugghers. I grew up with using one (*she said, showing her age*) and two looks really odd to me. I went to a temp agency once and did the typing test with only one space, and got points knocked off for it. The lady there wasn't sympathetic, saying EVERYONE did two spaces, and it was NEVER one space. Um, excuse me?

The Internet is not widely mentioned in contemp literature, how interesting. Well, in my YA light sci-fi (circa 2033) they've switched to the Grid. Ten thousand times faster, people! (and it's real too, cutting edge now, so could be in universal usage by 2033)

I used to love the Babysitters Club! I was surprised when you mentioned them...havent heard anyone talk about them in years! haha

ONLY ONE SPACE AFTER A PERIOD? How did I miss this information?

Thanks for the information. I shall look much more professional now. But it's going to be hard. to. get. my. fingers. to. cooperate.

OK, I see it now. :D

With regards to the Internet in novels - I think Geoff's point about dating one's work is valid, but I think another part of it is that the act of using the Internet is passive and undramatic. Do we really want to read a scene about someone researching something by typing it into a search engine and reading back the response, even if it's 10x more logical then having them break into their neighbor's house to snoop around for the same answer?

It's like in movies these days - so many sequences suspend disbelief and make you think "you know, all this sillyness could be avoided if she just picked up her cell phone and called xyz!" But screenwriters go out of there way to write something dramatic, with action, because someone talking on the cell phone seems easy, and boring.

Thanks for the CNET link about library renting to the Sony Reader.

I'm about to sell my Sony PRS-600 (probably on ebay) so that link will help... MOUHAHAHA

Fyi: Let your CNET buddy know that one can library-onto-kindle. Tell him to download Calibre. He'll be able to take it from there.

I used to be an avid fan of THE BSC when I was younger, so the "Where Are They Now?" article was extremely entertaining to read, haha.

Thanks for sharing. :)

~TRA

http://xtheredangelx.blogspot.com

@D.G. - yes, you can use your Kobo with library e-books.

@John Kurt - Library e-books don't support the use of Calibre. You can try it, but we (librarians) don't recommend it. David's post was needed. The point is that Amazon needs to get on board with libraries. I'm a writer, too, so I understand the need to keep the publishing industry alive. But libraries are needed, too, so much.

@Cari - thanks for the info re the Kobo e-reader. We like libraries as well!

Nice to know we have the option.

@Sommer - thanks, you're very cool, Sommer. :) You guys at the forums are great fun! :)

Monday, Monday. Wherefore art thou Monday?

I guess I had more time in my childhood--I managed to read The Babysitter's Club, play baseball, and watch Star Wars.

It must have been a time management issue, right? Because I'm sure you were not implying that girls were reading the Babysitter's Club while you boys were playing baseball and watching Star Wars. That would be sexist and presumptive, and I'm sure you're smarter than that.

I am so excited to tackle PlotWriMo! These posts are a great way to decompress from writing all through November and still stay connected and working on our stories. Thanks!

Logan
http://loganeturner.com

Thanks for this post. It's great to start the day with a laugh at myself!

So not a traditional ninth's circle but I'd add infidelity.

Oh, hello shiny new idea. Want to go to the laptop with me tonight? The WIP doesn't have to know. We need a little break from each other. Time alone is healthy for a relationship. I'll just write a little of you, shiny new idea. We both know this isn't serious. Just a little fun.

Holy... that's not really 5k words, is it? But the WIP... But THIS!

LOL..Brilliant. Been through 1,2 and 4. And hoping never to go through some others. The gold, baby line reminded me of Jerry Seinfeld and Kenny Bania, "It's gold, Jerry! Gold!" :D

You had me at ... oh Farmville!

The 8th Circle was just the icing on the cake.

I'm etching the current manuscript on plates of solid gold. Just to be sure.

Hysterical... and sadly true.

Um, fabulous. Really.

Don't stop there, Nathan. Let's get right on to Savonarola's INFELIX EGO, or "Alas, wretch that I am," 1498.

What WAS in the water in Florence?

Wow, I remember a variation of these days at age fourteen probably up to eighteen. This is why we plan our writing. Fantastic humor, though.

You make hell sound fun--these are awesome (and true). :)

It appears my circles have formed into a hellish Venn diagram from which my novels can never hope to escape. That's not good, right?

So. Freakin'. FUNNY!

This could be a pie chart for me! Seriously, a good laugh after a(nother) rejection letter start to the day.

I hang out in the fifth level a LOT...

Hmm, circles of hell. I like it, but I'm going to squash them all into tiny squares and use them as foundations for my next book. Thanks.

Nathan:

A descriptive look at the ego and its various degrees of self-righteousness.

To understand this list and the places the human mind will take us on our internal journey through the written word onward can be as terrifying in its veracity.

Daryl

Love, love, love this post! Hilarious and so true.

I feel like the Second Circle is really common for novice writers, especially poets. There's a tendency to believe things are perfect just as they pour out of you, and that revision is blasphemy. I know I've been there.

Informative as well as painfully obvious why you're a writer, Nathan! Good stuff. ;o) Have you started on a new novel, huh, huh?

Been there, done that . . . and that. . . and that . . . and that . . . and that . . . and that . . . and that . . . and that . . . wait wasn't there supposed to be a frozen lake around here somewhere?

The secret, I hear, is to have as many novels going as there are levels, so if you're stuck on one, you move to another.

Oh, yes, I've visited the seventh many times! Bwa-ha-ha

OK I so I laughed out loud - I'm still not descending into the land of initialisation.

Ninth Circle - Treachery
I, the flowery novel, covered in clichés and bejewelled in adverbial everythings, know I need to be nip-tucked crisp and ironed out smooth but neither I (nor you mother) will tell you. HA!HA!HA!

WV: psyndio - HP/Voldemort spell for sending people into psychosis?
Got it! ;)

What happened to the Circle of Despair?

Well, no wonder you got rejected, no-longer-shiny novel. Your plot stinks, your characters stink, and I couldn't write my way out of a paper bag with a sharp knife. I'll never be a published writer, so I might as well play Farmville all night.

Yupx9

I just think you are brilliant. That was great. I think I'm in the "anger" phase where I stopped sending out query letters. They all suck. Time to buy the Sell Your Novel Toolkit, I think!

This was funny, and yet oh sooo true...he he he

I believe when I wrote the bones to I AM WOLF, I was sitting there thinking wow, it's finished!! Then my editor got ahold of it.. When he was finished, it was a bloody mess. I listened to him though, and it turned out to be a wonderful experience.

Great post and did illicit some giggles this morning. :D

Oh my heavens! I needed this laugh today! Thank you!

My favorite would have to be "Heresy." I just didn't get that book. We read it in 11th grade English and it was my least favorite. (Followed closely by Huck Finn.)

Though I do love "Violence" because I used to shred copies of my manuscript after I'd finished editing those sections.

Geez Nathan! That was depressing. I kept hoping for some kind of happy ending there ...

Oh. It was the Nine Circles of Hell you say? Okay, I get it.

Really it was pretty hilarious. Next time you should do the 12 step program for getting published.

So funny, I laughed out loud!

Dante is fantasic and your interpretation... brilliant. "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate" pretty much sums up the writing process perfectly.

I think Dante would be pleased to see his words being put to good use. Bravo!

Hmmm...I wonder if Winston Churchill was channeling Dante when he wrote the following: "Writing a book is an adventure. To begin with, it is a toy and an amusement; then it becomes a mistress, and then it becomes a master, and then a tyrant. The last phase is that just as you are about to be reconciled to your servitude, you kill the monster, and fling him out to the public."

lol!!

Mine has been stuck somewhere in Limbo for awhile--but my favorite stage is Gluttony. I'm planning to indulge in this over the holidays, oh sweet novel thou awaitest me patiently! (don't worry, my family will pull me away to eat and interact with them)

Another great post. I laughed ... I cried ... I saw myself running through the stages with my current WIP.

Fifth circle here. Angry and bitter.

With @Deni - the tenth circle of being shoved in a dark cabinet. It's resting until the tempestuous circles of writing hell have calmed.

i'll give you an uh huh, a yep and a pretty much for good measure.

So funny and true. I bask in your brilliance.

LOL!!!

Awesomeness. This post is pure awesomeness.

Pretty hilarious! Thank you! I passed through these stages long ago - now I'm much more philosophic, %#@&^%@!

This is priceless, lol. :D

There are many kinds of hell. Sometimes we let ourselves fall into one of those 9 levels through lack of passion and commitment. Have confidence in your idea, but listen to the revision angels.

To remove yourself from any of those levels, simply impose discipline and get an enforcer (Ideal reader, crit group,or spouse) to ensure you write, write, and write some more. Then you must revise, shop the book around, etc.

Perhaps Nano is one of those hells? (you write until you drop or else) I'm just saying it could be.

Interesting post, Nathan, with thanks to Dante for stimulating your imagination.

There's only nine circles? Uh-oh...

Have a great Thanksgiving, Nathan.

LMAO!
Very clever.

I love this post so much. I was about to go all #7 on my manuscript.

Does this mean all writers are crazy people?

LOL

I can't wait to see what you come up with for purgatory. :)

Know what? I will continue to have my net novel in my blogspot for some people to copy and print. It's more EXPENSIVE that way. They have to buy INK and bond paper from the store and they will have to learn Math. By the time they printed my stories each "copier" is spending at least $50.00 for the ink and $6.00 for the paper.Then they can copy and print again another novel for their own perusal and eureka they will have to spend more than that for ink and bond paper. Who is gaining here you tell me? The INK store of course. Now where can we dump the snow?

Perfect description of what writing a novel is like. Very clever, Nathan! :)

~TRA

http://xtheredangelx.blogspot.com

Nine circles of writing hell. Might there be a writing purgatory as well? Why not a writing heaven, where epiphanies about writing's many impermeable membranes are ascendent?

I'm looking at my first big story as a training novel; therefore it must be finished no matter how absurd. I'll do anything to finish including burn in hell. I just like to finish stuff and learn whatever lessons must be learned. It's all good even writer's hell. You gotta have skin in the game to relate to other peoples thoughts and struggles.

Hahahaha! Excellent. This explains a lot.

How 'bout the tenth circle being "Making a Typographical Error in your Comment Identity thereby taking people to the wrong and slightly strange blog."?

Ha! Clever, Nathan. :) I'm realizing that changing this from a work blog to a personal blog will give you more opportunities to stretch your writing chops. Yay!

For me, I skip all the rest and start at Hell level number 9, and I do this without having written the novel. I don't mean to be immodest, but I'm very efficient when it comes to descending levels. It's a sort of gift.

Thanks for the post, Nathan.

hahaha so tragic, and so true. XD

You seem to have had this experience! I know I have...

Heresy indeed!

After reading this, I think my first NaNoWriMo pep talk next will be titled, "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." It might not be the best way to raise morale among the troops, but at least it would be honest.

Okay, so where's the Circle of Hell where the novel tries to kill you? Because I've spent a lot of time in that one.

Brilliant . Take a bow , Nathan .

I must be stuck in the fifth circle, except for the hating the manuscript part. It does help explain my free read, Query This Sucker! Memoirs of an Angry Author.

They do say write what you know...

Oh, okay. I get it. There are NINE circles. That's why it's taking me so long...

Nathan, have you been spying on me?

I needed to laugh today and this really hit the spot. Not sure what circle I am languishing in at the moment. Nice to know it's not a circle reserved especially for me.

Hah, love this!

I LOVE YOU NOVEL.

Only you can make damnation so hilarious.

So are we going to get versions of the Purgatorio and the Paradiso?

Awesome! And some of these levels look strangely familiar.

I hit each of those levels with every ms I write. I don't think it's avoidable. :)

"I hate the space between the words....Mwa ha ha ha ha" LOL

This is awesome. I was just commenting to someone yesterday that I was in the ninth stage of revision hell, so I feel your (our, everyone's?) pain.

How's the new job working out, by the way? Congrats again. :)

kathryn-

Really good so far, thanks! I'm enjoying it a lot.

*Standing Ovation*

And if you had any idea how hard it is for me to stand right now, you'd know how much I really loved that post.

~bru

This is great thing which has been done. Beautiful job done.

Generic Viagra, Buy Kamagra, Kamagra Oral Jelly

so i'm hovering in the most beautiful arc above the 5th and 7th circles, travelling back and forth between the two.

i love this post, nathan, really, but where are our precious pearls? you know, the ones you drop into our cyber laps that tell us what to do to get out of these circles?

(still love ya!)

~heather

I laughed! How many of us have been in pretty much every level at one point or another?

It's just the sort of comraderie pick-me-up encouragement that we're not alone laugh we all need :-)

I agree with Leah: infidelity can be another sin! I'm currently spreading myself between three novels and a short story collection, but shh...don't tell any of them that!

Third Circle:
Opening scene, Romancing The Stone. Author finishes novel…tears, no tissues, no paper towels, no TP with which to wipe her tears, post-it works. Ah…the joy of finally finishing, what…you mean it’s supposed to be published.

Ms trite says:
From the loft of heaven, ideas come, and if into the fires of hell they descend…visit the purgatory of writers, isle one, Staples, multi-purpose, 20 lb, 500 sheets…START OVER.

Will you marry me, Nathan Bransford?

Loved the post. It left me in snitches. Love your blog, though it doesn't always leave me in snitches.

EEEK! You live in my head!
amy g koss

Very funny indeed... and oh-so-painfully true.
But seriously, The Great Gatsby is boring.

8. Become a literary agent.

This will guarantee traffic at your site.

People will read your blog, chiefly because they'll want to leave a sugary sweet comment so that you, the literary agent, will see their name and their face (and hopefully remember it fondly... when you reject their work). What these people fail to take into account, however, is that in all likelihood you'll be moving on to something else within a matter of months anyhow.

Becoming a literary agent is also a great way to get your novel published - so really it's a win win situation: you end up getting published, and you end up with a large following!

Keep it in mind, however, that every now and then some clever personage will see right through your ruse, and leave some class of antagonistic comment behind.

That's alright though because, having modeled your style on that of Sauron's, from The Lord of the Rings, you love any opportunity to act in a dictatorial fashion... and can simply delete that person's comment.

Happy Thanksgiving to Nathan and his family, and to all of my American friends south of the 49'th!

anon-

Haha... wow. If only my life were actually that planned out. So much less stress.

And a Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

All so true!

Happy Thanksgiving, Nathan!

Oh so funny. Oh so true. Would like to post this on my blog and/or link to it. www.writer-lee.blogspot.com Is that okay?
Marcia

This is what notepad is for. If it doesn't feel right, cut it out and stash it in notepad. You've got it out of the main MS, but you can tack it on the end for verification and wordcount!

You did write it during NaNo, after all, and it did help you with the characters and the building. It's all about the words.

The Inner Editor they're talking about, isn't so much the voice of 'are you sure ninjas would be breaking into Victorian England'. But the one that sits there going 'no comma there', 'no space there', 'stop using passive voice', 'your doing that twang thing again, 'you need to remember what that one guy said about saying this'.

GAH! That's the Inner Editor that you shut up, lock in a box, and freeze like an overcharged credit card. You don't need them sitting there wrecking the flow. Because the last thing you need is constant frustration when all you want to do is write, "My name is Bradley, I'm fifteen years old, and last week, I died."

Because the minute I write that, my Inner Editor is going to say, "What, that's you're opening line? What the heck is that?"

[headdesk]

I say write the 2k words first and edit those words before calling it a night. But don't spend an hour editing the first hundred words you write.

I'm with Crazy Cat Lady on this: Highlight, but don't delete. The easiest way to discourage yourself is to realize you've taken a wrong turn and delete five days worth of progress, cutting 20 pages from your novel. And if you delete, you may have lost some little detail worth holding onto.

The principle behind NaNoWriMo is to challenge yourself to finish writing an entire novel in a month, accepting the wadded up rejected pages as part of the process. It is a discovery draft, an experiment to test your subconscious under pressure.

My advice, as I enter my fourth year myself, is to avoid becoming attached to anything that happens. The purpose of the NaNo draft is to get it on paper and fix it later. If the first four chapters don't work, assume that they have and start Chapter 5 where you think it should start. Highlight the previous chapters and note your changes. Or work the rewrites in as you go.

My novels have name changes of characters halfway through when I realize their names aren't working. If I don't like a character, I type "[insert name] died of [something fun] and was forgotten," and then move on. If something goes wrong, I type that it was a dream, or it was magically fixed and ignore that it ever happened. Boosting my word count, correcting my plotline, and saving my sanity, all in one fell swoop.

Besides, no one ever said you had to write your novel in order.

This is why I outline so much before NaNo. The outline serves as a barrier. If I cross it, a bright red light turns up in my head, and a high-pitched voice screams "WARNING! WARNING!". My Voice is quite assertive. ;)

A good outline, with the major plot points lined up, is a great way to avoid many of the snags that come with too many words, too fast.

I agree with Crazy Cat Lady! I developed that idea of not deleting just this pat summer. I hadn't heard anyone else say that prior to this post. While I was working on a story this past summer, I found myself increasing the size dramatically (kids chapter book, so I'm talking only a couple thousand words!) and so I figured it would be best to start new files with stuff I was deleting from the working piece. It was such a great safety net. And while I don't think I used much from the stuff that was saved to new files, I'm pretty sure just going through it from time to time helped me with new ideas.
As far as being a good editor during the creative process, I'm not. Fortunately, I write short fiction, so far!!
Everyone's style is different. Advice from pros like you is always good and very welcome, but each of us has to find what works best for us, individually. For me, I hired a professional editor to help me with the final product. I'm more than okay with that. In fact, I believe my creative side went nuts, (in a good way) once I had a pro on board. It was very freeing and more than worth it. As an added bonus, I got some valuable lessons from a master! A wonderful experience and one I wouldn't mind repeating!

i self edit each time i write. i leave things as is (unless there's a huge, glaring problem i can fix right away) for the time being, then the next time i write, i reread what i wrote the last time. it takes about 10-15 minutes most days, and i can polish things up quickly while getting back into the right mind frame to write well. this works very well for me; b/c of this process, my first drafts tend to be very grammatically correct. i sometimes have plot issues or things that need clarifying, but in general, it's very helpful.

Darn it! I like those cow aliens! And they TOTALLY make sense with the space monkeys.
Thanks for another great post. :)

Nathan, We who are about to lie salute you!

BTW, has NaNoWriMo produced any works that Made It Big?

Published NaNo Novels: http://www.nanowrimo.org/publishedwrimos

Water for Elephants, among others.

Hi there, Nathan.
I'm finding your NaNo boot camp very interesting and somewhat helpful.
Which is ironic considering you've never done NaNoWriMo before. (At least I think that's what you said in a recent post.)
Do you think you'll ever participate in a NaNoWriMo in the future?

Hi my name is Rummy and I am Steppe's Voice. (Hi Rummy!!!) Technically I am a porcelain figurine of eight point five noblesse oblige inches of mighty bear-mold oven baked, hand painted stature, that someone once imagined should become a piggy bank. I like kids, so don't get me wrong; but the piggy bank racket was not for me. I sport my dull green fedora with a blue band over an eye patch and red and white checkered kerchief around my neck that can easily be raised when making a bold escape from a caper. Truth be told I am a small bear who found work as a savvy literary critic and reluctant line editor (Spiy) I keep the boss on track and I get to call him "kid" a lot. When I got this job I asked about my predecessor (The Previous Voice) but I am still waiting for some definite clue as to the outcome of that mystery. I forgot to mention I wear a thick belt with a six gun on my right side. My right hand is raised to gently clutch my fedora in a perpetual tip of the hat to the kid (ahem) Boss. my left arm is riding low carrying a satchel of money with a gigantic cash sign on it. If I play my cards right the cash sign should wear off eventually or I'll get the Kid to see my point of view and paint over that blatantly visual display of eternal insouciance. My pants ride low over stubby black boots. Well fellow travelers in The Voice racket all I can say is no snot nosed punk ever slid a nickel dime or quarter in my back. How about you? Things get rough sometimes? That's why I have the gun and money bag and the kid has the laptop. When he starts badgering me with the "your really a raccoon or a mouse or a ferret pretending to be a bear" routine I cut him some slack and clam up until he stops pouting.
Being A Voice is an honest living and I am always ready to return to a life of crime if required. I'm flexible as long as I have the gun and he has the laptop. I'm still wondering about the previous Voice though. Rumor has it in old days of typewriters he had an Orange Orangutan with spectacles that fell of a shelf after being brutally stuffed to death with story notes. The final note read. "I know the rules." The always whispering legends in Voice land say that's the day the monkey died. Some say he fell off a shelf. Others say he jumped. Hmmmmm. I like the kid and the editor gig but I'm keeping the gun. It's part of the deal. Well... All allegories have a beginning middle and an end. Good luck fellow Voices.

Bransford, thanks for getting the kid to put me back on the desk. Slick play.

During NaNo, I use strikeout for chunks that aren't working. I use spell check and will sometimes go back and tweak grammar or add words...but as Sierra said, my Inner Editor is the one that likes to jump on style issues, so I'm careful not to give it free rein.

I wish my Voice were louder. It doesn't get loud enough to hear until midway through editing when I realize why I've been having so much trouble.

So wait, are cow aliens wrong???

I've written over 20 manuscripts, and at this point I have almost a sixth sense that tells me whether or not something's working. How to fix it is another matter entirely (reason #456 that I'm glad to have a great agent!) but I can usually catch the story before it veers very far off-track. So just a matter of practice for me, I guess.

All I ever seem to do anymore these days is edit. I won't forget the importance of editing time and again, but right now I just want to reward myself with something fun and freeing.

I know there'll come a point when I'll have to edit the heck outta the blasted thing, but sometimes I just have to cut loose and enjoy every experience that I can.

Ha ha ha funny! Have you been to Vermont after reading Van Buren and Jules Verne?

I'm in awe that people actually do this. It took me four months to complete a draft of word vomit, forget one. Then, I went away for a week, stewed over it, and practically re-wrote the whole thing when I got back. Best wishes to all attempting NaNo!

Great post! That’s exactly why I’m not promising myself to finish my NaNoWriMo novel in one month. I’m not going to turn off my self-editor. Years ago, when I was on an even tighter schedule than I am now, I found it much more efficient to edit as I went along than to get stuck and have to undo a lot of writing. Even in regard to smaller details like grammar, imagery and the language of each sentence, if I edit as I go along, I’m able to get a kind of momentum going where each sentence adds to the earlier sentences. It’s worth it to me to work like that.

For example, the revised beginning – a kind of introductory heading – to my science fiction novel slowed me down quite a bit because I had to translate regular time into UTC time to make the military events sound realistic, research where on Earth space elevators are most likely to be structurally sound, then look up places along the Equator after discovering that the architectural requirements of space hotels are met only by the physical dynamics along the Equator or within 20 degrees from the Equator. This was all for a brief introductory heading at the beginning of the novel, but the research helped me to avoid going off in directions that wouldn’t be believable.

The Write Owl -

I checked out that link. Wow, amazing that WATER FOR ELEPHANTS was orginally written as a NaNoWriMo novel! Also, there are a lot of published books on that list of books written in NaNoWriMo. Impressive!

A trick I've come up with is: if you discover you've got to make some changes, make some quick notes about what the changes are and at what point in the story you made such changes, and then continue writing as if the changes have already been made. You can then go back later and check your notes and make the necessary changes.

'Get something-anything on the page and...try to revise it later...' Useful, but doesn't work on beer stains. I've tried.

Anonymous 12:19 pm and Iahn and Heather, Nathan's novel was originally titled JACOB WONDERBAR AND THE COSMIC SPACE COW, but the publisher thought that sounded a bit cheesy...

As for the Inner Editor, I hear there's now a simple operation to get it surgically removed.

Marilyn Peake, you mean a space elevator can be up to 20 degrees north or south of the equator? Yikes! So I shouldn't have bought all that real estate on Howland Baker Island after all. Damn!

I'm kind of on the fence. For me, Nanowrimo was just wanted I needed to let go of the self-editor. I feel like I can fix anything later, as long as I don't get too attached. :)

I will red flag something that doesn't feel right but I think the more I write, the easier that is for me to figure out - if that makes sense.

The Dublin ML always encourages us not to delete a word but to keep on writing. I have to delete some words (can't help myself) but I won't go over a paragraph constantly until I've sucked the life out of it (at least not until December. :D )

I like the boot camp. Thirty jumping-jacks of plot twist, twenty push-ups of character development (protag development, that is, not my own), and running five miles of insecurity and self-doubt. I'm ready!

*just what I needed* even - and the self editing holiday has already begun apparently. :)

And you can look at it this way, too. Before mss were submitted as Word Docs, and before there were computers, most edits turned into complete re-writes. And that was arduous. So the fact that it's so easy to edit while you're working nowadays is an incentive...or should be.

J. T. –

Ooooops. Guess you should have left that island uninhabited. :)

I think if you are used to writing daily than editing as you go won't be a big deal, however I also think for people who've never written daily before, editing can be a major stumbling block. I suppose it's a case of what works for one guy may not work for the next, really.

My inner editor tells me that cow aliens are always a no, but space monkeys rule!

I always self-edit. Maybe sometimes a little too much but after each chapter I write, I go back reread, edit and play around with it until I am happy. I don't think it slows me down but inspires me to write more.

That's why, when I do something like NaNoWriMo, I like to skip around and I have no fear of changing the story mid-stream (put in a note in the earlier chapter - "no alien cows" - and just move on.

However, it's also why I don't like to do things like NaNoWriMo to their rules. I prefer to shift into high gear on something that's READY to shift into high gear - which may mean the exploratory writing is already done.

Great advice... thank you

Good point Nathan. If you think you'll come back and fix it, you probably won't. Fix as you go and build that strong foundation!

sheesh. Can I just say, totally off topic, that I hate being so busy? It's midterms, and I am sooooo busy and working really hard. Hate that. I'm not like you, Nathan. I need my sit and stare at the walls time, or I get g-r-u-m-p-y. Blech.

I hope you all appreciate it - my working so hard and being so busy. Not that it has anything to do with you, I just feel like being appreciated.

Speaking of which, I appreciate this post. Very good, subtle advice. The problem is finding a balance between powering through and knowing when you're powering in the wrong direction. The other tricky thing is knowing the difference between that quiet voice that says: 'something's off here' and that blaring voice that screams 'who are you to write ANYTHING???????'

Maybe the volume of the voice might be a tip off, I don't know.

But learning the difference between those things is well worth the effort.

Okay, I'm off to be grumpy, I mean, work so more. Toodles.
(yes, I said toodles, leave me alone, I'm g-r-u-m-p-y).

Oh, one more thing--since I tend (and by tend I mean...always) underwrite, editing for me most of the time just means going back and adding words. And I tend to do that as I go, a bit. Every day when I first start, I'll go back over what I wrote the last day and add words wherever I can. This does three things:

1. Gets me more words. Score.

2. Makes that bit stronger.

3. Gets me back into the feel of the story in a no-stress way. I don't have to be thinking of new stuff, I'm just adding to what's already there, which is much easier. Building up strength before I dive back in.

For those of you, like me, who have a devil of a time just pumping out words, open a seperate document to keep the cow aliens. That way, it won't get in the way of your main draft, but if you decide to use the material later, it won't have disappeared. I find this step is essential in mediating the self-edit dragons.

Thank you. That makes so much sense.I really have to be an edit-as-I-go writer. I did a shorter (3 day) writing challenge, and although I finished my book, I noticed that in my rush, my manuscript had some serious holes. Good luck to all the NaNWriMo writers out there, but I think I'll stick to my usual schedule.

Nathan, I respectfully disagree.

My self editor is also a terrible critic. If I don't tell my self editor to shut it, I'm doomed.

But I agree about listening to that voice that tells you to wait a minute. If the story is going off and you know it, then yes--make notes, highlight, but keep writing. Don't stop. Don't delete. Just keep writing.

I find my subconscious works overtime. Often, when I wander off plan with a manuscript (particularly in the madness of nano), later I find things come together in ways I didn't anticipate at first.

Nano is, yes, about getting a book written. But it's also about trusting your muse and getting beyond those initial barriers. You just might find that where your frenzied composition takes you is a more satisfying place than where you originally planned.

I've done Nanowrimo four times, and I think I'm three for four on having to go back and make a major change before continuing on. It seems to happen about once per November.

One year, the going back meant giving up on Novel #1 and writing Novel #2 instead.

Last year, I went to move on to the next scene, and realized that things would work so much better moving forward if I changed the previous scene. (I got an important subplot started that way.) I un-wrote so many words that day that my net wordcount gain was something like 36 words, even though I'd probably written a good 3,000 or so just to get back to where I'd been up to.

My policy is that I will only do that if I need to for the sake of the big picture moving forward. (space cows would probably qualify.) I don't play with words or phrases once I move on to the next paragraph, unless I see a silly typo. With anything more minor, I write myself a note for later.

Of course, as I go back and revise previous novels, I've found that the second draft usually requires major restructuring - but for me, it's easier to do that after I've had some time away from it all anyway.

Reading everyone else's comments, I think there's a balance that needs to be struck. In the YA I just finished, I promised myself, I would not go back and edit the small stuff, but I would go back and add and delete passages as necessary. In fact, what happened was, as "I need to change that" ideas popped into my head, I'd simply insert them in CAPS in the first draft passage I was working on (even if they referred to three chapters previously) and keep plugging ahead on drafting. The result was that I was infinitely more productive, while at the same time satisfying the obsessive voice in the back of my head that said, "If you don't change that NOW you're going to forget it."

NaNoWriMo makes no sense to me at all.

"You won't believe it! It was NaNoWriMo, as in month, and not only did I finally get started, I got published and will be in Borders soon! All because of NaNoWriMo. If it weren't for that."

"Are you high?" The reasonable person asked.

But my therapist says I must ignore the voices in my head. We can never get everything right, can we? Nope, we thought not ;)

This is a really good point. I think the trick is in knowing how much to self-edit. Are you going back and changing "house" to "home"? Probably a waste of time at this stage. But are you realising that the story would work better if you removed the secondary love interest? That's a major plot-point, and you don't want to write a whole draft based on a premise that isn't working, so if your inner editor is talking to you, you should listen.

Good food for thought.

Does 'the Voice' work with "you don't need any more shoes or that last piece of chocolate cake," too?

I just bought 'the t-shirt' making a contribution to NaNoWriMo - now I *have* to take part.

(busy looking for the minor-edits-managing-otherwise-known-as-procrastination-monster off switch...)

Wise perspective. It does depend on the writer.

I've been working on a manuscript with an editor I trust. He understands the rough draft phase, so he isn't overworking my pages. But his feedback is important.

Seeking input as I go keeps the project from straying into a bad place and getting lost there!

So, you're saying it's okay to listen to the voices? Allllll Riiiiight!!!!! Excuse me, I'll talk to you later. I have somebody--er, I mean something to attend to.

This is exactly why I don't participate in NaNo. One of the perks of the competition is to be able to say at the end, "I did it! I wrote a novel in a month!" But, I know if I wrote a novel in a month, I'd retire it to a shoebox and leave it for dead under my bed. I like to self-edit as I go. It makes for a much less challenging rewrite.

I would self edit at the end of each chapter, if I had it to do all over again. Sometimes, like you said, a small plot hole can turn into a gaping cavern, leaving rewrites as your treat. Smart advice.

The only problem with that is that the edits I make tend to be major changes in which I have to go back and change a bunch of other stuff and pretty soon I've written myself into the proverbial corner and gaaaahhhhh.

It drives me crazy just thinking about it. If you have any suggestions for me avoiding that (besides not writing all together), I'd appreciate it.

Listen to the voice, fine, but what if there are several? If you start listening to them all you go nuts. People demanding space on the page, your Aunt Vera for example, back from the grave & trying to wrest control of the plot--at some point you have to tell her to take a hike or she and her ilk will hijack the whole thing and you'll be left with a bunch of incomplete and incompatible stories instead of one finished first draft. So my view is, try and stick with one main character and what s/he wants and have the character deal with the usurpers.

Hi, Nathan. Great series of posts. I haven't had much luck at NANO, although I do get a good chunk of work done each year on this or that project.

As to inner editor itis, even when I write a first draft during a NANO, I edit last thing and first thing, that way it gets at least two full edits a day. Outside of NANO, I tend to over edit, spending enormous amounts of time going over the same material, with the thought that if I can get it right, I can then move on. I know I should just do a surface edit and save my energy for just getting the story down, but it's hard.

Just so you know, there is a perfectly marvelous YA scifi story about a boy who inherits a starship and has to head off an invasion of Earth by a race of Killer Cows. It's called Killer Cows, by Dave Anderson.

I've discovered my best way of doing NaNo is to start each day's writing by reading what I wrote the day before. (I limit myself to one day's reading for time and limit the urge to edit too much.) This keeps me focused on the story while eliminating issues before they become major issues in a completely first draft.

That's good advice, Stephanie. I shall try that.

In the movie MARS ATTACKS! the Martians set a whole herd of (earth) cows on fire. Though at least they didn't rape them or stampede them through the Vatican (as far as I know).

My gift for self-editing only gets to the "WTF is WRONG with this!" point. But I am learning to do a search and destroy where the word "had" is concerned.

I now need to stop the humiliating habit of adding every adjective I know to help describe a snowflake. I must learn to just say "it's white, cold,and tiny." and be done with it.