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One more thing: Why does Diamond release the numbers?

If the data is out there, I think it’s tough to expect comics sites not to analyze it. Even if those numbers are incomplete, they’re the best info comics journalists have about what’s selling.

But I doubt Diamond’s intention is to provide fodder for well-read posts on comics websites. What’s their rationale for releasing the info?

I agree with what Jason Green writes. I don’t see talking about dropping sales hurting a book.
It’s often stated that if you looked at internet response, no one would read any more Jeph Loeb books (unless Tim Sale is drawing them), but his books sell big.
So it seems the internet is not a great barometer of what will sell. And I can’t believe it’s a great barometer of what will NOT sell.

I also keep getting books when they get cancelled. I either like them or don’t. For every book that felt rushed or forced in their last few issues there’s one that has a nice conclusion that wrapped up a series I love. So while I am sad when a book is cancelled, I get books I think are good regardless of it’s future sales forecast.

Mikael–publishers, distributor. Who cares? The point is that Mr Brandon and Mr Aaron are accusing analysts of causing harm when the “dangerous” information is coming from the supply side of the economy. These numbers arent being made up, they are released for the benefit of interested parties.

—Mikael–publishers, distributor. Who cares? The point is that Mr Brandon and Mr Aaron are accusing analysts of causing harm when the “dangerous” information is coming from the supply side of the economy. These numbers arent being made up, they are released for the benefit of interested parties.—

did you read my blog post? or are you reacting to excerpts? because i don’t think that’s what i said at all.

Personally, I think the open dissemination, discussion and analysis of the available sales information contributes to making the comics market a healthier place.

And I think so precisely BECAUSE said information shows, among other things, which types of material are particularly favored or disadvantaged by the market at a given time, and how the various creative, promotional and marketing measures taken by publishers affect sales month in, month out.

I think we’re all much better off with that type of information than without — and by that I mean everyone in comics, creators included.

(And if you’re one of those “the numbers are inaccurate” types, I’ve got no time for you, at this point. At this stage, the merits and limitations of the available information are clear and well-established to anyone who’s really interested, and if “it’s not correct” is all you’ve got to say, you’re either not paying attention, or you’re purposely out to misinform.)

And gosh darn it for all those speculators on Wall Street, forecasting profits and losses with almost no data, then punishing companies when the reported profits aren’t as high as the traders expected! “You only made $1 Billion dollars in profit? I was expecting $1.2! I’m selling!”

And when the stock price drops, the big investors with millions of shares, who sit on the board, expect heads to roll.

One factual note: Diamond does NOT RELEASE NUMBERS They release an index number. However savvy folks like Milton Griepp and John Jackson Miller extrapolate these numbers for their own charts which are NOT 100% accurate as to number. They do, however, give a very accurate idea of degree. Robert Kirkman demonstrated this at Charlotte a few years ago in his debate with Brian Michael Bendis.

And even if Diamond DIDN’T release index numbers, you could still figure out just from the top 300 placings which books are selling below cancelled books. The sales estimates are a red herring in this context.

Ivan- I’ll admit that I only read your essay on Friday, and formed my impressions then, wrote my notes then (and you and I talked a bit on twitter then), but I have not revisited the essay since.

So while everything I said this morning is an accurate representation of my impression on Friday, I am willing to take a fresh look at the concerns.

@darrylayo you may want to read heidi’s comment above as to “These numbers arent being made up, they are released for the benefit of interested parties.”

and i never said anyone was “causing” harm. i listed my impressions of potential pros vs cons.

it would be impossible to measure the effects of these kinds of things and i’m not much for anecdotal arguments.

Interesting comments.

http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/index/ivan_brandon_on_the_case_against_comics_sales_numbers/

I don’t know if releasing the (low) numbers of some books causes them to get canceled either, but I do know that there is usually no shortage of schadenfreude in certain sales figures rundowns, and I suspect that’s what Mr. Brandon, Mr. Aaaron and others are really reacting to… let’s just say that I am not remotely surprised to hear about that “Standard Attrition” forum, and leave it at that.

I think the numbers might convince retailers and customers to abandon a book that’s already selling like crap. But there are much larger forces at work that make something sell like crap in the first place.

One difference between the comics publishers and other media companies with rankings is that the other companies use the rankings for marketing. A bestselling book can stay on the charts for months; movies can have extended runs. Consumers use the lists to decide what to buy or to go to. Individual comics issues, conversely, aren’t marketed. The Previews system only works because the fans are, in a sense, a captive audience. If a reader wants new Spider-Man stories, there’s nowhere to go but Marvel. As soon as a series issue is released, unless it’s controversial for some reason, the publisher’s attention immediately shifts to the next issue. The ceiling on the comics readership would discourage promoting individual issues anyway.

Critics of the charts are right, in a way, that publicizing sales estimates has mostly negative effects, but that’s due to the way the issues are published. If issues were available for purchase for months at a time and marketed, high rankings would have the same effects on consumers that the rankings for other media products do.

SRS

Synsidar,

I think the DC marketing on the new 52 showed that advertising does work, whether it was profitable enough we will find out when/if they do anything marketing campaign.

Until then, publishers will continue to pretend that retailers are the ones responsible to market their books.

“I have a theory that no-one who reads Usagi Yojimbo ever stops reading it voluntarily, they just eventually die.”

Well if that’s true, then they must die happy b/c Usagi is THE most consistently well written/drawn comic book series being published today.

I believe the last issues of the last Disney/BOOM comics shipped this week.

Surprised to see that Angel and Faith is really only doing half Buffy’s numbers, now that they’re being published together. I’d actually give A&F a slight edge in creative team.

I read Usagi in trade.

The October/December issue of Previews lists the SDCC variants and an O/A Darkwing Duck Volume 3. No other trades.

DUCKTALES #6 ships this week, as does DARKWING DUCK #18. No Disney is listed on the “Coming Soon” page at Boom Studios’ website.

A couple of things. I’m curious with all the Buffy, Dollhouse, Angel, and Charmed books out; as well as GI Joe, Jurrasic Park, etc. why in the world V (the last version seen on ABC) wasn’t continued in a comic book. It’s become a bit of a trend, especially with prematurely cancelled TV shows that have a comic book readership following. This is more DC territory, as I believe V is still owned by WB, and DC printed the original V comic book WAY back in the day. But I would have been intrigued to see season three happen in a comic series…

As for the apparent failure of Jurrasic Park. The artists they choose for these minis are (IMHO) subpar. I can never figure out why companies get the rights to use these properties, then fail so badly when it comes to actually putting out a quality product. Excluding John Bryne’s recent mini, they’re just not worth it. Even Dark Horse’s recent Aliens “reboot” followed this pattern.

>I can never figure out why companies get the rights to use these properties, then fail so badly when it comes to actually putting out a quality product.

Bad artists work cheap and publishers expect the title (alone) to “carry” the book.

LL

Yeah the Zenescope books are definitly guilty pleasure books. But they never cross the line into Tarot level smarmyness. Tarot is by far the worst professional comic out today. It’s the type of book that really hurts the industry. I mean if Ballent wants to do a cheesecake book that’s fine but for the love of god get a real writer.

Noticeably absent is Walking Dead proper. As for IDW’s Cobra, the series is just as dark as under the first volume with Chuckles. I’m getting Sixth Gun in trade, and never realized it brought up the rear of the chart. This book is excellent.

“ICv2’s will be out tomorrow”

Already available: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/21453.html

Yeah, we’re all working fast today!

I have also finally updated the 1997-onward item count graph and raw data table to include the last three years, which helps illustrate the scale of what happened this month:

http://www.comichron.com/vitalstatistics/itemcount.html

Let’s hope Paul and Marc-Oliver can also work fast…we still don’t have September’s month-to-month charts yet!

When did retailers order books for October? I don’t think anyone had read any of the new #1’s when retailers ordered books for October.

Marvel’s Final Order Cut-off (FOC) for October was:

09/12/2011 (Monday) for books going on-sale 10/05/2011 (Wednesday). Three and a half weeks.

So, if DC has a similar schedule, then the New 52 was out for two weeks when the first October orders were due, for the second issues of those titles which were selling out on the stands. That is, retailers had two weeks of sales data to analyze when ordering issues of the second issues of those titles.

Also, DC initially offered limited returnability on the New 52 titles to encourage retailers to order sufficient quantities for expected customer demand. They have since expanded this through April of 2012.

There was also the preview issue and the huge media push via the DC blog and various websites, which would encourage customers to pre-order or subscribe for subsequent issues.

Rick, not when the original orders were placed, but I think this is where the Final Order Cut-off paid off really freaking well for DC.

If it lasts, man. If it lasts. Lots of comics projects start off super strong and then trickle. I have been cataloging my comics lately, logging them in ComicBase, and it’s been a tour of titles that briefly spawned great excitement – even multiple printings of first and second issues – only to trickle and fade away.

The online discounter I order comics from wanted orders for October to be in no later than August 31. That meant I had to order the #2’s before even reading the #1’s.

Two-months-before is how it always used to be, and how it remains for consumers ordering from Diamond’s print catalog. But retailers could still place Advance Reorders after that deadline, and then the Final Order Cutoff in the 2000s pushed the date as far ahead as it could go and still allow publishers to change their print runs. The bulk of comics are still ordered on that two-month cycle, but technology has allowed orders to be honored closer to the ship dates.

We see the reflection of that in the sales charts. Go back on Comichron and follow some hit series — particularly surprise hits — and you’ll see in the 1990s, it’s the third or sometimes the fourth issue where there’s a real sales bump. But by the time you reach Civil War, #2 has higher orders than #1. Retailers had a better sense of demand, thanks to the FOC for #2 being closer to when #1 came out.