Talent I have. Craft I continue to develop.

Both, I believe, are necessary.

I have one completed novel that I believe has potential to sell modestly well.And another WIP that I think is even better.I have given parts or all of these works to various readers and their feedback and mostly their keen interest is my best meter so far.

What I feel I need to know is who and how many am I talking to? How wide or narrow is my audience? Is it 50? 200? 10,000? More? Maybe 2?
That is a most important question to whether or not I should have books published.

I began writing for myself. I love correspondence and realized, after many years, that people I wrote to saved my letters and e-mails. In fact, I have often been contacted by someone who accidentally deleted e-mails from me to restore them.

I have learned that *some* of my writing affects people.

The other big question for me is if, even with talent, I can get published. I am not good at marketing (self-marketing anyway).I may never know how many readers I might reach with a book until I get someone promoting a piece. Oh, agent, my own agent, where are you?

Oh, wait... the actual question was "how can you tell?"

Find people who are known to have talent, or to have the ability to assess quality... and who are also honest. Show them your work. Get a second, third, fourth, fifth opinion. Learn from that, create something new, and try again.

Bear in mind they are assessing the result, not the creation process. It will be up to you to assess yourself honestly based on those external opinions. Many talent deficits can be overcome through additional effort. Some can't (I've seen them). But you can't figure out your own talent:effort ratio threshold if you don't get honest, (reasonably) objective assessments of the end result.

By the way, I wouldn't pay for those assessments. I don't think anyone will ever be honest with you about your talent level if they stand to make money off you.

I have no idea what the answers to these questions are, but I suspect if I did that I might abandon the quest.

Ignorance is, in this case, bliss.

The only way to really tell is to let people read what you've written. It's like a bad hairdo: you may think it's great and awesome and perfect, but until you get feedback from someone less crazy than you, you'll never know that a quadruple-pigtail-twist-updo is a bad idea.

If a person works, learns, works, makes mistakes, and works, it might not matter whether or not they have talent.

That said, I'm hoping the encouragement of writing professors and magazine editors is a good indication.

I spent the better part of my life as a working chef. Still I cook gourmet, but my feet don't tolerate being on 'em for ten hours a day anymore and my health won't survive all the goodylicious temptations. I know I'm a talented chef. My cooking is psychologically satisfying as well as nutritionally satisfying for me and my audience.

I can make instant macaroni and cheese that youngters will say is better than when their moms make it from the same recipe, almost, and same packaging and ingredients. A pinch of mustard powder and ginger powder, I add. For me, it's the little things that make all the difference. No more and no less tender loving care than moms gives, just that little bit extra that moms doesn't know about the art and chemistry of cooking that I do, that's not in the cookbooks, that's a matter of practice and application and knowledge and the little bit more tender loving care that makes what I make stand out from the ordinary.

Then there's poached salmon for the grumps. Poached in Chardonay and fresh dill and served with a clove flavored champaigne beurre blanc sauce.

I've noted that sophisticated palates are an acquired but not exclusive taste. Poached salmon goes really good with homefries and applesauce.

I do think you can tell if you have writing talent. Storytelling, more so. But the two are different, one is innate, the other learned.

As a writer you know when you have talent (and it isn't all the time) but it comes in those moments where you're totally in the zone, and later you think back on it and it appears to be somehow magical.

So you strive to have more of those moments. : )

Someone told me, not long ago, that my novel won't sell because people don't buy sad stories during serious recessions.

Someone recently told me that chick stories are really hot right now.

Mine is a sad chick story.

I write, hoping to be published, but also because I want to. If this sad chick story isn't picked up, hopefully the next one will be.

If you have it, you just know. Under the layers of self-doubt b.s., you know it to be fundamentally true.

I think that talent is something that just comes naturally. Sure, you can work at it and improve your skill but its something that just comes easy to you.

I just started writing six months ago and *gasp* I can honestly count the number of fiction novels I've ever read on both hands. After joining a critique group every single member that has read my work has commented on my talent. Writing (and especially voice)is just something that comes easily to me, crafting a story has been a little more challenging though.

Nathan,

I'm not one to tell someone else what they would have done (that's a lie, I totally tell people what they would have done, what they can do now and what they should do in the future), but I wonder if you would have given up writing.

You may have given up trying to write MG fiction, but there is still your blog, and your talent for essay writing and humor.

I think people sometimes give up writing for awhile, but it always comes back to bug them. Write, write, write, write, get writing.

That's been true for me anyway.

Getting published - well, that's just a small group of people's opinion at a given point in time. That's valuable, but that's all it really is.

I suppose you're always aware of some flair for language and storytelling even before you get serious. After that, you just compare with what's out there.

There is something to the reaction of those who read your stuff, too. That's one of the reasons why I feel it's important to write short stories. The feedback is more immediate and frequent.

I think that knowing what is good and what isn't is part of the "it" one needs to succeed as a writer. Some people are too easy on themselves, and some people are too hard on themselves, but being honest and seeing through bullshit, whether it is to describe someone in an intriguing way, or whether it is to recognize your own shortcomings, is necessary in writing. Those who have "it" probably know they still have a long way to go, and that's how they got "it" in the first place -- realizing what they need to improve. When you think you're "there," that's probably when you'll stop growing as a writer, a thinker, and an individual.

Nathan,

I'm not sure Terence will be keen on the pay cut...

I'm not sure anyone can tell they've got talent. Yes, it's subjective, but that kind of validation needs to come from an outside source. Otherwise, how can you be certain it's not just narcissistic grandeur?

"I'm hoping the encouragement of writing professors and magazine editors is a good indication."

Mag eds, yes. Writing professors, no.

Always pay attention to which way the # is flowing. With magazines, they have to pay you for stories, so they're not going to feed you any bull. If they say you're good, then you're good to them.

But with professors, you're paying the chool for the privilege of writing and being evaluated on that writing, which makes impartiality impossible.

As a writer looking to go commercial, you should only be interested in the opinions of two groups:

1) readers and potential readers of your material (who have no personal or business ties to you)

2) Publishers ina position to buy or potentiaally buy your work

Anyone else has a relationship with you that will compromise the impartiality of their feedback and opinions.

~Anonypalooza

Publication.

It isn't a perfect measure of talent, but currently, it is the best one we have.

It not only measures writing talent, but how willing/able you are to do all the rest of the job (query letters, synopses, taking editorial direction, etc.).

It also measures your patience, which is a job requirement.

Okay, so maybe it's not a perfect measure of pure writing talent, but it is a good measure of talent required to do the job.

You have to assign a goal to measure the "talent."

If the goal is to publish a story and then sell x number of copies, then sell another one and repeat...well, that's an attainable, clearcut goal.

To say you want to write "good" stuff is not.

Then it becomes a matter of how long will you continue your attempts to reach the goal? 5 years max? 10? A lifetime?

Most people move on to something else when it doesn't pay off quickly enough.

~Anonypottimus

You ask some tough questions, and I'd love to know if there's a definitive answer to this.

Give me a quantitative test of writing talent and I shall devote the rest of my life to making enough money to buy you a tropical island populated with servants happy to cater to your every whim.

Fair exchange, I figure.

Most writers of my acquaintance are horrendously insecure and bounce back and forth between believing they have no talent and believing other people have no ability to recognize it. A few have settled comfortably into that gray zone where they don't know if they have talent, and hope to sell something in order to have tangible evidence that they might.

The hardest part about all this is defining "talent." Sure you can just go with "the ability to write a compelling story using beautiful words," But then you need to define "compelling story" and "beautiful words," and then their definitions will need further definition. The whole thing just devolves into an exercise that results in measures which are both very precise and completely useless.

However, in the interest of some kind of conclusion:

If by "how can you tell if you have talent" you mean, "how can you tell if you can write a story people will enjoy?" Then I think the only sensible measure is the size of your appreciative audience. If they're willing to spend money to read your words, then that's a great measure of their appreciation.

That's not the only possible definition of talent, though. When I was a teenager, I saw a friend of mine read his girlfriend a poem that reduced her to tears. I don't think he ever got published. I don't think his audience ever grew beyond that one girl. However, at that moment, there was certainly no question in her mind that he had writing talent.

To be specific: the talent I want is the ability to write a story which entertains and leaves readers wanting to read more of my work. Do I have it? Some, I think. Someone has read these words this far, and this isn't even a story. Maybe a few of those people will click on the link to my profile, then follow it to my blog and read a few of my other rambles. That's tangible evidence in the "yes" category.

Are they willing to pay to read a story I wrote? Am I talented in that way?

Well, it's happened before. Whether it'll happen again is something I intend to find out.

Here's another perspective:

How many of you writers will keep writing AFTER your first book sells, but your second flops and then no publisher will buy your third? Are you going to sit down and slog through #4 at that point? Or maybe pick up that guitar that's been sitting in the corner for all these years...

Everyone says they want to write when they have either no track record (cuz they just know they're gonna win, baby! Their English prof and their kid says so!) or they still have a good record (debut comes out later this year! Yeah I'm writing #2 right now, outling #3, lookout world!)

But after you succeed (i.e. get published), and THEN you fail (i.e. can't get published) will you still write?

~The Anonymizer

Uh-oh, nathan--welcome to the world of high-traffice blogs--you've got spammers!

Whether it is football, writing, or even speaking. All things are a combination innate talent and practice. Some people have very little talent and must practice a lot. Some are savants, and practice only refines their art. One gauge of whether you have enough talent to make it might be, how much does your writing improve with practice? If it doesn't improve at all (Not sure that can actually happen), you are either a savant, or a dullard. If it improves only slowly, you need lots of the third element, determination. (Also known as bloody minded stubborness)

I write this without meaning any disrespect, but I wonder how useful a question this is? Should not the question be, how much are you willing to do to achieve your goal?

I'd reword the question for two reasons:

1. Talent, to me, connotes inherent ability. This means you either have it or you don't. Who decides this? Literary agents, publishers, and audiences? Does this mean that the author who sells the most is the most talented? Do critics and fellow writers decide talent? If so, does this mean that writers who have become part of the literary canon after their death but were largely ignored by critics and colleagues during life weren't talented?

2. Let's say you come up with a definition of talent, and it's based on some combination of commercial and critical success. (Btw, I'm not sure I agree with this definition, but for the sake of argument...) Each writer will have to go through the process for herself before she can decide if she has talent. People generally come to understand their strengths and weaknesses through experience, not through the advice of others. (If it were otherwise, we'd have avoided wars, global warming, and most stupid mistakes made by teenagers.)

So, is there any answer to this question posed here that can make any of us give up? Probably not. (But I'm sure many of us think we know someone else who will profit from the collective wisdom offered here!)

So, I'm not sure there's anyway to answer the question you've posed. It is possible, however, for most people to answer the question, "How much are you willing to do?" I don't know how honestly any of us can answer that question until we're in the midst of writing, but I do think it's a question likely to provoke more objective answers.

Despite my criticism of the question, thanks for posing it... very thought provoking!

I actually think that most people who are writers or want to be writers are pretty good at it. The thing is -- they may not be good at all types of writing. Not everyone is a novelist. Not everyone can write a humor column. By the same token, not everyone can write a prescriptive non-fiction book. The point is -- if you think you're a writer chances are you are. You just have to figure out what kind of writing is right for you.

I think the real confirmation came when I won the creative writing contest at college. I had had several people tell me I wrote well, but never really an unbiased, credentialed person.

The praise of friends and family is great, but I think there is always a lingering doubt, even when they try to be objective, that they cannot quite separate your work from you.

I don't know...

Maybe I will just have to send you a manuscript and see...

:-D!!!

I know, Query First!

When someone with literary weight offers an encouraging word about your work, take it as a good sign. It may not mean you're there yet, but it does mean your work shows promise. Run with that notion. Keep cultivating the talent that you have by reading good writing, and then write, write, write. Someone once said we all have 10,000 pages of bad writing in us. Don't give up too soon.

I really like a lot of the comments, especially those that suggest people should evaluate the reasons they write. I had an art instructor once tell me that any art is thirty percent talent and seventy percent technique. It’s important for an artist to learn the technique so any talent can shine through the work.

In the late eighties, two different literary agents, both of whom were well-respected, told me I had talent. The second literary agent turned down my first novel, because the story lacked structure, but he invited me to send future projects to him.

I studied the craft of writing and eventually decided to try writing a second novel. Now I have members of my online critique group, who have never seen me, judge me on the quality of my writing. Based on their comments and suggestions, I feel like I will have a marketable novel ready by the first of the year.

I don’t think my success or failure will be determined by publication, though. I believe that even if this novel isn’t published, my communication and writing skills have improved. I’ve also met a lot of really wonderful talented people. So I’ve lost nothing by this adventure and gained some lovely friends. That’s a win/win situation for me.

In general, the more talent one has (at anything, whether it's writing or music or sports), they tend to be drawn to that thing from an early age.

With writing, it's sort of silly for a 6-year-old to be writing books, of course, but they can read. I think the key for writing novels is to have read them since childhood. Starting with Winnie the Pooh and the Beatrix Potter rabbits and Where the Wild things are then on to your middle grade stuff (for me it was the hardy Boys and Nancy Drew (yup I read them both) along with the classics they make you read in school and the essays that accompany them, then onto Stephen King as a teen and finally into the stuff that you really like, which will spur you to write your own stuff.

But without that foundation of early reading, the level of "talent" will tend to be lower, because you have no understanding of what came before you, no perspective.

I would be like a parallel universe in which Eddie Van Halen didn't pic up a guitar until he was 30 years old. Yeah, he'd still ahve the innate ability, but without the early years of piano lessons and general musical experimentation that cemented who he was as a person, he wouldn't have achieved the same level of talent. there's just not enough time. True talent evolves over a lifetime, I guess is what I'm trying to say, and if you don't start something until adulthood, then you've already started to late to achieve ultimate talent.

~Anonaholics Anonymous

Good writers are good observers. I think the rest is a matter of time, trial and error, and hard work. But, if you aren't good at observing people, the world, and how everything interrelates, you're not going to produce good writing.

Does 'good' translate into "sellable"? I write very good stuff about the inside of a world of the life I lived. Band bus, Buddy Rich, Woody Herman. Big bands. I was the lead trumpet player. See...won't sell. The masses cannot relate to it and although it will never "sell". I still write it!

I write other stuff too that I feel is good (I know where the delete key is) and someday might 'sell'.

John Coltrane or Kenny G.? Miles Davis or Chris Botti? Art or something that 'sells'?

"....."it," as in the talent that it takes in order to have a book published."

Talent...subject...audience?
I feel talent has nothing to do with getting something published.
(present company excluded Nathan)

just my ....$.02

I generally find that people who think themselves to be extraordinarily talented are usually the least so. I think a healthy combination of realism and optimism is a good approach.

"See...[Band bus, Buddy Rich, Woody Herman. Big bands. I was the lead trumpet player.]..won't sell. The masses cannot relate to it and although it will never "sell". I still write it!"

I would think that could sell just fine, depending on how it's written. Lotta ways to go with it--a volatile behind-the-scenes truel-life tell-all biography? A hard-boiled mystery novel set amidst the early jazz greats? Just depends on the direction and then the execution of that concept.

~Anonymetrics

To be honest, I think too many people put too much stock in the concept of "talent." I mean, I agree it exists. Definitely.

But sometimes people use it as an excuse ("Why bother trying to write a book? I'm not a good writer" or "I don't need to edit my work because I have TALENT!").

Everyone can become a better writer, and the way to become a better writer is to LISTEN to what others tell you about your words and to THINK critically about the words you put down on a page. And to SIT AND WRITE.

I'm not saying doing these things will turn you into Stephen King or George Eliot. But they will still make you a better writer. I am about 98% sure of that.

I think purpose is more important than talent--not only do you have to SIT AND WRITE as I said, but you also have to know your writing process, your writing style, your likes and dislikes, the history of your genre, and your audience. These are things that can be learned.

Anon 1:34 -

I agree that people will find a way to do what they're good at.

6-yr. olds may not be able to write books in most cases, but they can still tell stories, and storytelling is an essential component of narrative writing. I was "writing" this way from the time I was 3 or 4, with a toy tape recorder and a microphone. (Audiobooks! :-P )

It's the same as kids who want to act putting on plays for their parents in the backyard. Sure they're not works of art, but they're baby steps toward the final goal.

I don't think a person can tell if they have a writing talent. Even if I get my books published, I'd probably still think that I got lucky. If any book after the first sucessful one was, I would say it came from the first book's luck. Personally, I write because I love it.

My dog really likes it when I read my stuff to her. Okay maybe she's partial.

Really, I LOVE the process of pulling together these adventures, worlds, people and events from the air. Without obsess over my talent level, I just do the best I can and enjoy. If it takes me somewhere, great.

Probably because I've received *just* enough praise to whet my appetite when i was young.

Also, if you read enough good work by great writers and you get the same feeling when you read your own work, that *might* be a sign that you have talent.

And if your Mom likes your work . . . well, who are you to question your *Mom*.

And because I am so completely obsessed and blinded--to the point of needing a seeing-eye dog--by the notion that I have writing talent that I'm posting the following link to my latest Red Room essay: http://www.redroom.com/articlestory/in-which-we-are-introduced-a-certain-bear-and-a-dubious-notion

Hope you enjoy.

Ink -
I have this on-going debate (mostly in my head) about the 10,000 hours idea.

One (apparently) has to put in the 10,000 hrs to master a skill, but do only the initially "talented" have the perseverence to last the 10,000? Or can anyone, even those with less inherent gift for the skill, acquire it, with dedication and practice?

What do you think?

I subscribe to the dedication-and-practice philosophy, assuming the skill in question is something most people have some ability in (i.e. I'm seriously never going to play in the NBA, unless I have several painful operations. Yeah. Not even then).

So, 10,000 hours minus (time I've already sunk into writing) = Wow. Lots more to go.

:)

Nathan:

I dont think the NBA analogy works. You can quantify basketball talent. How high can you jump? How fast can you run? Writing talent is much harder to pin down and is so incredibly subjective and whimsical.

To me, the simple answer is you cant. You can tell if youre able to dunk a basketball. You can't tell if you have writing talent. You can only believe you do, or you dont. Even if you are successful, there is still no definitive answer. Just ask all the successful writers who still seem to battle with the same self doubt. It isnt exclusive to aspiring writers.

Anon 11:43, I'm curious if you are published?

If you really believe it's that easy to be published, I'd have to assume you haven't your knowledge of the industry is sparse.

For the most part, talent comes from hard, hard work. With anything, say basketball, no one wakes up one day and is professional quality. Sure, some people, LeBron, have loads of raw talent, but they still have to work at it. Then there are others like Michael Jordon, who didn’t make his high school JV team. But as we know, hard work eventually paid off for him. Many college scouts will tell you it takes a mixture of talent and hard work to make it to the pros, especially baseball. Some very talented ones never make it to the Majors, some less talented ones work their ass off, stay dedicated, and make it.

I think writing is very similar. Some people are LeBrons, they have it. However, most are Jordons; they have talent, but they have to work very hard at it. And unfortunately, some are like the five-foot-two couch potato high school kid who says he’s going to be in the NBA someday.

Colette - thanks for that. That was really helpful to me.

I have no issue with non-fiction. It's fiction writing that makes me doubt myself. Something to ponder.

Thanks. :)

adam-

I agree and disagree. On the one hand, I agree the raw abilities needed to be a basketball player (i.e. being tall/athletic) are a bit more readily apparent to everyone. Whereas with writing, it's a little less apparent to the average eye.

But basketball is not so clear cut that it's quantifiable. People are trying, but it's a sport that's remarkably resistant to quantitative analysis. There are guys who have good stats but their teams don't win games. Why? Who knows - maybe their teammates aren't good, maybe they don't do the non-stat things it takes to win games. There's a lot left to interpretation.

I still think my analogy mainly stands. The people who are published writers are the NBA basketball players of the writing world. Even when they're not good-for-the-NBA they're still in the elite. And as the NBA shows, sometimes the best players aren't always the best paid. Shaq makes more than LeBron, for instance.

There's a common sentiment in this thread that anyone can be a published writer if they just put their minds to it. I'm afraid I just don't believe that's true.

I dont think it's the same, anon 2:01. Lebron James has so much talent, he couldnt fail, with hard work and effort, of course. If there was a Lebron James of writing, I believe he could still fail. The difference is the subjectivity of measure of talent, along with the whimsical nature of those measures.

"I'm afraid I just don't believe that's true."

Nathan - what do you believe?

"I have no idea whether I have talent or not. I have no idea if I'll be published or not. Since these are things I cannot control (well, not completely anyway), I've decided not to worry about them anymore.

Instead I'm going to write my first book and see how it turns out. Then I'll write a second book and see how it turns out. Hopefully more (and better) books will follow.

When I have a novel that I feel is publishable, I'll polish it up as much as possible and send it out into the world and see how it fares"

Ella1444 - excellent, i absolutely love your attitude and am going to bear it in mind :)

Adam-

I don't think LeBron would have made the NBA if he also didn't have an insane work ethic. He has all the raw abilities in the world, but he also keeps adding moves, perfecting his jump shot, and getting better. The only way to do that is to practice.

mira-

I think that writing is a combination of innate talent and hard work, just like everything else. I don't think everyone has it, though I agree with everyone in the thread that it's very difficult to distinguish who does and who doesn't.

Anon @1:43...thanks for that. It's all about what's going through the heads of the musicians.The character differences from a 5th trumpet play to a 2nd trumpet player. The difference between the 2nd trombone player and the other guys in the section. The lead alto player and the lead tenor player and the rythm section. All tongue and cheek but life on the bandstand and on the road. No murders or stuff. True life behind the scenes for sure. Funny, reflective and melancholy. I've got a few of them up at my Two Flats Down place. Not pandering for blob traffic here. Just so you'd get an idea. Thanks...I guess I need an overdose or the bass trombone player steals off with the drummer's chick (which would never happen) to add some spice.

-d

I don't typically comment but that is a dang good question, fine sir.

How does one know if they possess writing talent?

Hmmmmm?

Logic would say when the writing makes people late for work or stay up all night or beg for a sequel or pass book around as a must read or makes teenagers you don't even know say, "I don't read, but that was the best book I've ever read." And of course the writing would be polished and revised and edited and critiqued and beta-read and revised some more, etc...

But you see, that's logical, describing writing talent that way. That makes sense to me. So I will question you back...

If what I described above is true, why oh why have I been stuck in query hell? For. So. Long.

Professional athletes, Olympic athletes, celebrity actors, beauty queens, bodybuilders, musicians, politicians, etc., all come with inherent physical qualities that improve their odds of making it to the big top, and not without a little chemical or surgical intervention to boot. Writers, physical traits have zilch to do with talent. There's no magic steroid or plastic surgery that's going to help a writer make it into the major leagues.

If publication is a measure of talent, then all writers who share their work with the public are talented. Commercial publication isn't a measure of talent, it's a measure of popularity.

There's one thing that might be a measure of writing talent and it has broad potential, the ability to meaningfully reach another person.

Nathan, thanks for answering.

I agree.

I wonder if on some level, people know.

I remember I used to stare at a blank piece of paper. I felt this yearning to draw that paper toward me - I wanted to paint on that paper. Which always confused me. I have zilch talent for drawing. Just terrible. So, I never quite understood it that yearning....

Until I realized I wanted to paint with words.

I think on some level, we know.

How do you know you're good? When 1000, 10,000, 100,000 people are willing to spend money to read it? People don't buy your stuff until it's good, (whatever that means to them.) That's why it's pointless to worry about it too much. Writing is an act of faith. If you need assurance before you start, stop now.

Somtimes when you write something and you know when you read it is good!

I was once convinced I was destined for the stage. Took acting classes; participated in drama clubs; auditioned, auditioned, auditioned.

Eventually, I figured out that I sucked.

And not a little bit, either; the kind of suck in search of which vacuum manufacturers scour the countryside and sacrifice virgins.

It's hard to come to that realization. If you've spent a lot of time and money developing a skill, and wrapped your whole identity around having it, realizing that you actually don't have it at all can be crushing. I accepted it because it was better than the alternative (wasting more of my time, money, and self-image), but I have a lot of sympathy for "bad [fill in the blank]s" who are convinced they'll eventually make it if they keep trying.

How can I tell that my writing isn't like my acting? Feedback from objective sources. Requests for partials. Personalized rejections. None of this suggests to me that I'm the best thing to happen to writing since the printing press, but I doubt I'd be getting this far if I wasn't on the right track (or at least in range of the whistle).

If all I was getting was general platitudes and form rejections, or if I found myself resorting to the validations/consolations that I used with acting (Perseverance is the only thing that matters/the people taking "my" roles were just lucky/all the actresses in this town suck anyway and these idiot directors don't know talent when they see it/etc), I hope I would have the good sense to do what I did with acting: give it up and go find something was better at.

(costumes, for the record. I am like a serger NINJA).

Talent? Really, Nathan? C'mon. Should have asked 'How do you know if you have the tenacity and cunning of a used car salesman' because that's what it takes. If you don't have that, all your talent will never be seen.

Really good question. If I have time, I follow several comments through to the personal web pages in order to read what they're writing. And really, I sometimes don't like what they're writing and I think to myself, "well, they'll never be published."

But really, it's more that I don't care for that style. I don't have patience to read sci-fi, but does that mean those writers don't have talent? Of course not. I'm guessing there's an audience for everyone.

So who's to say? I suppose that's why we should query widely.

You write because you have to write, you need to write, and only later do you realize that this could be a job.

You ask people who are in no way related to you or obliged to be nice what they think of your work. Take that feedback and apply with an axe.

When I had the opportunity, an editor asked what one question I'd like to pose before reviewing my work. I asked, "Does this have voice?" (Another ineffable quality of good writing.) Afterwards, she said "Yes." That is how you know.

Does it resonate with another person? That's the answer for publishable writing. Does it resonate with YOU? That's the answer for if you enjoy writing.

I would love to know the answer to this from an agent or publishers point of view.
I have taken two writing courses-my last instructor was a critically acclaimed author. At the end of my course he wrote to me and said that I will probably sell my book faster than I know. I have had published authors critique my book and they have said the same thing but so far I haven't had luck. I know the first few queries I sent (including one to you) was pitiful but now I am pretty confident I am understanding the query process. I constantly question whether or not I have it and would love to know for sure. I think you can start off not having it but if you practice enough you can end up with it.

On some level, I do think that if someone is willing to put in the work, they would eventually reach the elite level. The question is whether or not that'd happen before their death. :)

Given that, if someone can quit writing - they probably should. If you can not write for a month without getting itchy fingers, then maybe you don't have the drive, determination, perseverance (and just plain insanity) needed to follow through with the necessary learning curve. :)

Jami G.

Susan,

I lean more towards the work end, I think, but natural talent will always play a role. And the thing about the 10,000 hours is that is what it often takes to reach true mastery. This is what the Michael Jordans' need, the Tiger Woods', the Beethovens', the Picassos'. A true and complete mastery. But you might, say, do five thousand hours and still be a damn fine writer, and be quite publishable. It's not a cut and dry thing. But the worlds' best have almost always hit that plateau of 10,000 hours (according to the studies).

But within that framework of applied effort a person's natural talent will play a keen role. Terence Kinsey might have put in the same hours as LeBron James. He's elite, pulling down a wonderful paycheck in the NBA... but he's not LeBron. Natural gifts will still play a major role.

And I think people hugely lacking in natural talent for a task will almost never put in 10,000 hours. That's a monstrous amount of work, really. I mean, an hour a day for an entire year will get you over 360 hours of applied practice... and that's a long, long way from 10,000 hours. If someone puts in 5,000 hours and still can't string a sentence together... well, it seems unlikely they'll put in another five thousand. I think talent works partially as a self-selector. Does your practice reap any results? If you have talent, it probably will... and you'll continue to practice (or perhaps increase your practice). If you don't have results... usually you'll find something else to do.

If a writer spends 3 hours a day, for example, for three years (let's say 3,000 hours) and they don't see much gain in their writing... will they really be willing to up their practice to five hours a day? That self-selection comes into play, and people will weed themselves out. And, frankly, I'm guessing it will generally occur long before three or five thousand hours are reached.

So I think talent feeds hard work, and hard work feeds talent. Very symbiotic, really.

Okay, I'm done. You may return to your regularly scheduled programming.

I think there are different types of talent when it comes to writing, as odd as that sounds now that I'm re-reading this sentence.

Some authors have juvenile language but amazing stories, so we return to them each time one of their books hits the shelves. Some can write about the most mundane things and change our world with their interpretation of life, with their language. We laugh, we cry, we fall in love (or hate) with strong characters because one writer can express emotion so well.

I've read over the comments and the main ideas seem to be if one is published, if one can get someone unknown to them without emotional bias with the ability to be critical to love the work, or one simply knows.

So, how can I tell if I have talent? I can't tell. But if I write something and one person connects with it, it doesn't matter to me if I, or anyone else, feels I have talent. I'd rather reach my audience and make them think, make them feel, than have someone tell me what a good writer I am, or what talent I have.

For me, I think itwas the first time someone I didn't know very well told me they liked my writing and wanted to read more.

I disagree that good or successful writers "have to write."

I enjoy writing. I tell stories to myself in my head even when I don't have writing implements handy, because that's just where my head is. But if it became obvious to me that I wasn't any good at this, and had no chance of ever being published? I would find somewhere else for my head to be. That doesn't make me love where my head is now any less.

Adam, not that you have to agree with me, but I do think it is similar. Nothing is exactly the same. LeBron played basket ball in high school and I’m sure in junior high, and although I don’t know for sure, probably at the Y when he was eight. And most likely, 340+ days a year with his buddies. Now, if a writer has an extreme amount of talent, they will get published. It may take a few contests, some minor stuff in magazines, a few manuscripts, and lots of work, but this is like LeBron’s early years. Once again, no one wakes up and is suddenly the best. LeBron had to do the leg work and so does the super talented writer. But how many super talented writers actually exist? Like LeBron, probably very, very few. If someone is that dang talented at writing, and they work at it, they will get published.

And just like professional sports, besides hard work success in writing is all about timing and luck. How many Jordans were on a losing high school team and no scouts ever came to their games? I do agree there are many talented writers who don't make it. Then there’s the Rodmans who never played until community college and became a star. Perhaps not the best, but definitely a star. There are these writers too.

Anon 2:01

My goal isn't to be recognized as a talented author. I work hard to entertain readers. Everything else (including depth of theme!) is hot fudge and whipped cream.

It's very hard to take ego out of this game, but backing away from the virtual Nobel podium can make the daily pages come a bit easier.

I don't like this question. Can we get a new one?

How in the heck do you know if what you're writing is actually good?

You don't.

That's part of the fun

Talent = Amazon rank # !

~Anonyplasia

When a literary agent sends me a nice rejection letter where he/she encourages me to continue writing, stating she simply isn't specialized my genre but liked the story.

When strangers, who do not care about my feelings at all, said they were touched by what I wrote.

When I get a positive paid critique session at an international conference by an award winning author, where my manuscript isn't edited every two words, where the feedback pushes me to stretch every bit of creativity, answering tough questions, but at the same I have an equal amount of enthusiasm and compliment displayed all over the page.

I can I have a potential writing talent when I am open to criticism and I am able to effectively use it to make my manuscript stronger and to improve myself.

Define "talent".

Nathan,
I totally agree with your comments. A lot of the people who have posted on this thread seem to think that if you are a talented writer, you will be published and that all you have to do is finish your manuscript, submit it, and it will be considered for publication.
Well, I seem to remember you reading a manuscript of mine recently and telling me I was a talented writer, but that you weren't interested. I had another NY agent tell me she loved the premise, the characters were well-crafted, the plot well-conceived, the dialogue strong etc etc, but it still wasn't right for her.
Talent does not equate to marketability; will not get you an agent, and probably won't get you published. Writing can be as personal as you like, but publishing is a business.
At a certain point in time, if I haven't landed an agent, the manuscript will go in the drawer, and I'll get on with something else. Just as I would if I opened a store and no-one bought what I had to sell.

This is a trick question, right? Talent and getting publishing are not connected. The former does not necessarily lead to the latter, nor does the latter prove the former.

Talent is like pornography, as the Supreme Court Judge once said. You know when you see it (and it's equally fun to watch).

I think the only way is to put it out there for people who have no vested interest in praising you to read and ask for an honest opinion. I would stick with people who read your genre and give it to more than one person. But in the end only you can decide if you need to be published or whether the writing in itself is satisfying enough. I know I couldn't not write, published or not. Now it's great to have the validation of being published and being told by people who have read my books that they love them, but I'd do it no matter what.

Are you saying that there comes a point beyond which a certain type of person can't improve?

I don't believe that. If you can improve, then there's always hope.

You may not be good enough today, but that doesn't mean you never will be.

Writing is so subjective, what your best friend thinks is awesome might be way off the mark in the publishing world, but hey, your best friend got to read a manuscript they enjoyed.

I think if you love writing you should write. I think if you want to get published you should put yourself out there. I think if trying to get published is making you hate writing, you should stop trying to get published :)

I've seen lots of folks ask for a definition of talent.

Can I have a definition of "published?"

Do literary journals count?

What about not-so-literary journals?

Do you have to get paid?

Does getting paid in subscriber copies count?

Will you feel published if your work appears on a website, or must it be in print.

Do you feel differently if the website is Agne online? If the print journal is obscure and filled with other writing that makes you cry inside a little when you finally get your copy?

I think the line between "published" and "unpublished" is almost as gray as the line between talented and not-so-much.

I don't really believe in 'talent'. There are so many skills required to accomplish almost anything. Tenacity, good judgment, taste, intelligence, to name a few.

There are undoubtedly people who find it easier to master the craft. And there are persons whose imaginations are more vivid and fecund than others. An innate ability to do something with more ease than someone else does not guarantee that one will do it well.

And getting published is certainly not a barometer of the worth of anything. Emily Dickinson wasn't published until after her death. It seems to me that she was fairly talented.

If your goal is merely to be published, I'm sure it's possible to do so merely by studying and working hard. Is that why you write, though?

How in the heck do you know if what you're writing is actually good?

You don't.

That's part of the fun


LOVE IT!!!!!

Ink - I knew you had more to say on the subject!

I agree that talent feeds hard work and hard work feeds talent. And that some self-selection most certainly occurs. I also think all that can start at a very early age (but doesn't have to).

And I agree that natural talent is required to achieve the level of Mastery of a Tiger Woods - but, as you say, we don't have to be Tiger to get published, right? After all, even golfers don't have to be Tiger to play professional golf and make a living at it. And publishing one novel doesn't even guarantee making a living at it (more akin to winning a lower level golf tournament, I think).

And I'm going to have to quibble with Nathan's analogy between published authors and NBA players, strictly from a numbers standpoint. Approximately 60 players are drafted into the NBA each year (I learned this today. Ask me no basketball questions. I know nothing sports related).

Nathan - surely there are more than 60 debut books published each year? Even if we narrow it down to debut novels, please tell me there are more than that?

I know it's a long shot to get published, but it's not that long is it?

Talent, who knows. I've been told I could write since I was a child. Again, we're talking subjective.

The real question is: Are my stories marketable right now?

susan-

But there are more people writing than playing basketball.

Talent is not part of the question.

We all have genius. See Elisabeth Gilberts's Ted.com speech at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86x-u-tz0MA

Since writing "feeds my soul", as Ron McLarty said, I will keep inviting the daimon of genius in and working at my craft.

Hmmmm....
Does an aspiring NBA player actually have a better chance than an aspiring author? Now, I'm intrigued.
My .0005 figure was just your chances of getting Nathan as an agent. I'm sure he'll tell you that not every book he represents gets published; in fact, I'd guess it's the same kind of percentage for the numbers of books sent to publishers that actually get published.
Nathan is a good agent, too: the percentages may be quite different (lower) with others who may not be as successful.
Plus, I don't think that every kid playing basketball on the school team hopes or expects to play in the NBA, but everyone who sends in a query letter has hopes of getting represented and published.
(Btw,I might ask all of you who have said you only write for personal pleasure, and don't care if you are ever published) why it is that you are posting on a literary agent's blog???)

A deeply personal question, and one I have yet to find my own answer to.

.......dhole

I love Yahoo Questions and Answers. "Since the US population is 298,201,327, even if we assume that 20% of the population is under 20, that leaves 59,640,265.[If]one percent of those people are even capable of playing ball, you have 596,403 candidates. Then assume one percent of that population plays ball well: 5,964. Then, assuming 30 NBA teams with a roster of 15 players per team: 450 players."

450 of 5,964 candidates who play basketball well (as opposed to, at all) is analogous to the 6 out of 10,400 who don't just write, but actually query. The result? .075 per cent success for aspiring basketballs players in the NBA compared to .0005 per cent for aspiring authors of finding an agent.
I like the odds of playing in the NBA way better than of getting an agent by querying by a factor of more than ten.

If you can't find the skill hiding in the lack of skill in the Da Vinci Code--even if you write lit fic--then you ain't got it. If you think every other author at your online writers site ought to be published then you ain't got it. If you give up, then you never had it.

I'm not sure I understand the last comment of your post. Since when does getting published equate to having talent? Lots of published authors have as their greatest talent self-promotion and the ability to write good query letters. I would imagine the most talented wouldn't get published simply because they're so original their works doesn't have a metric to judge it by.

Entering writing contests.

I've only found the time to enter two writing contests, so far. The second contest I entered I won the Encouragement Award (there was 1 winner and the Encouragement Award). I was encouraged! There is hope.

Let's say talent is made up of three parts: relevance, storytelling ability and eloquence. If we write relevant work today, we get published. If we write work that would be relevant two or three decades after we die, it may not get published.
Storytelling ability and eloquence may be what people usually mean when they talk about talent. But I think these kinds of talents have been covered in Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:12-28. There will always be someone with more talent and someone with less talent. All we can do is use whatever we were given, right?

I ask people who don't lie to me. When they get irritated that I'm whining about being a no-talent hack, I know I must have it.

I have less talent than many of the friends I've had over the years, but I also have more patience and drive to improve than many of them. My friends might be able to put out a better first draft, but get bored and never revise them. I work hard to improve my work constantly.

I've always felt that while talent is a good springboard, it takes more than talent alone to get anywhere, and similarly that a person can have very little talent but learn to become a master of a craft.

Even if I knew I would never be published, I'd continue to write just because I love writing. I actually think that if someone told me I was hopeless, I would (after the initial crying session) probably say, "Wanna bet?" and work even harder.

I think the hard work is the most important part of the formula. Not everyone will be published, but if you work hard and are willing to put the effort into what it takes to even have a chance, you're far ahead of the game.

That's one thoroughly analyzed analogy. Who wants to give me the odds of playing in the NBA and publishing a novel?

Late to the party. I belong to a critique group. We meet twice a month and are quite honest in our critiques of everyone's work.

I struggle w/ the do I have "it". You can keep learning, keep improving, keep writing, but maybe you just don't have what it takes.

Even if I knew I would never be published, I wouldn't quit writing. I love it and it gives me an enormous amount of pleasure.

Holy cow. I saw 249 comments and scanned a few before running scared.

I get the "I wish I was talented" litany from time to time from adults when I do author visits at schools.

Here's my response.

Interest + practice = mastery, which is perceived by most as talent.

Absolutely no one wants to hear this.

Sounds too much like diet + exercise + weight loss, I guess...

Oops! Meant diet = exercise EQUALS weight loss.

Epic fail...

No time to read whole thread but whenever this "talent" question comes up, I'm thinking "what talent are you talking about?"

There's talent for the poetics of writing.

There's talent for the story-telling of writing.

There's talent (and it is a talent) to know what story to write that people want to read.

There's talent to network and calculate the angles.

There's a talent to ignore the hurts and persevere.

Wow. This topic should help cull out the timid from the brazen.8^)

That is a great question, it's just not a question I ask myself. The only publication I have had so far has been very small time. I do want to be published more traditionally, but, if I never am, I will not stop writing.

I should say that I am intensely interested in improving. I want my writing to be the best it can be, but I am not sure how best to discern the amount of talent you have.

Honestly, I don't think that question has a concrete answer. It's all subjective.

Not all talented writers seek publication.

Crafting a book that will sell is not necessarily the ultimate achievement of a writer with talent.

The ability to effectively structure and communicate ideas uncommonly well does not always correlate with the desire or ability to write books, or to do the work required to get published

Publishing is a business that is swayed by trends, fads, random celebrity gossip as well as the desire to publish great writing.

I don't see being published, or not being published as being a true metric of talent.

But who is to judge if you are good or not? Does publication mean that you are good, does many sold copies say that you are good...? No, if you feel the need to write your stories, keep writing. You don´t write for fame or a famous name, not even for money, you write because you must, so have self confidence, believe in what you are doing. If you think that what you have written is good and true, then it is good and then even more people might think it is and maybe you will even be published...

I think it is all a matter of perspective. What one person likes another will not like; this is life. For example, there have been numerous books published which have gone through numerous rejections and still have made the best sellers list like the Harry Potter Books.

Hope you have a great day.

I was at The Etheridge Knight Tribute Reading/700 hundred people in the house/I said my poem,an epic alled Battleground/five minute piece that I know from heart/Dudley Randall got up after me to introduce Etheridge/ He said " Not only does one have to know their piece by heart and have it well crafted but they also have to have the big "G",and Etheridge has it." I know that I only have a minimal amount of genius but that after plying all these years I have lucky breaks and natural developed talent. Yes someone important will usually tell the writer that they have it in one way or another. An endorsement or financial gain enough to keep marching. Of course I disagree that parents and friends are really not important in the process/read you work to friends and siblings/they know/they're readers/feel their reactions/keep going/the rewards are great-spiritually and concretly,and often it's true,artists are the ones who can't do anything else,picked on by society for being lazy,hanging around thinking or playing.

1) You've been paid to write (five figures)

2) You've won awards

3) Praise from professionals

4) You got the agent you wanted

I don't know whether someone in the previous 260 comments has mentioned this old parable, but it's worth telling. A young man is torn between the violin, which feeds his soul, and a business career in the family dry cleaning biz, which feeds the family. He goes to The Great Master, who consents to listen to him play. He plays his heart out. At the end the master shakes his head sadly. "Feh," he says. "You have no talent. You'll never amount to anything." Crying, the young man puts away his fiddle and returns to dry cleaning. Years later, he attends a concert of the Great Master's and is allowed a brief audience. He asks the great man, "Do you remember my playing for you? You told me I didn't Have It and advised I go back to business. Apparently you were right. What I want to know is, how did you know?"
The old man leans forward. "I don't remember you at all. That's what I told EVERYONE who played for me. I figured, if they let that stop them, they didn't have IT. The ones with The Real Thing went on and didn't let whatever I said stop them."
Talent seems to matter far less in this business than sheer luck and being tuned in to the Zeitgeist.
I can only write what I would want to read. I can't live with a book for as long as it takes to write and revise one if I don't like the book myself. Thus I can't do "Twilight," and am a prisoner of my own point of view. Until I find someone who likes that POV, I have to be content with knowing that I did my best and stayed true to the books, caring about artistic integrity more than current fads.

I think, first, it starts with you believing in yourself. If you don't believe in yourself then it doesn't matter what you have, you will not be successful. Especially, in an industry that is going to reject you so often.

When you have talent, then you are naturally better at something then most people are without even trying. Your writing will gain notice from teachers with little or no effort on your part. You will most likely have a love for reading and words. And reading will be one of the ways you entertain yourself. Then the writing will come a little later as you try your hand at creating some stories.

I think if you never loved reading as a child, that an ability to write well, will not manifest as a talent. I think it’s the reading which shapes the talent and gives the initial ability with words.

The first thing to do is keep writing, irrespective of circumstance. Without that, there is no answer to the question.

Then, look at the credentials of anyone who's read your stuff. Parents and friends will probably say they like it, even if it's drivel, and schoolteachers are paid to be encouraging so their real interest is probably only saying the right thing just to pay the rent. If you've been writing for long enough, they may even be dead as well as insincere.

So that leaves people like blogging friends, crit groups and agents.

Who are they? What do they write? Is it any good? And in the case of agents (if you're at that stage), who do they represent? What kind of feedback did they give in that last rejection?

Hunches about our aptitude — in writing, as in other things — can be terribly unreliable, and sometimes we need a mirror to see clearly what's going on.

Blogging friends, crit groups etc — use them as you would a mirror.

If you're on the right track, it should be clearer from this — but be prepared to see plenty of zits.

Well, Nathan, I think I know whether I have writing talent in the same way you know whether I have writing talent. Is there any other way?

If someone really wants to write (I mean REALLY), first they need to learn the craft. Then I believe they need to be humble enough to take criticism (and critiques) and improve their writing. That's where the talent comes from, from persistence. Can they get published after that? One only hopes. =)

Recognizing writing you like is very much like falling in love. You either do or you don't. Attraction isn't a choice; it's either there or it isn't.

This is why some agents passed on JK Rowlings while someone else loved her work. This is why you query widely. Just like an internet dating service, except the pool of possible relationships is a lot smaller.

You want an agent who loves your work, believes in it enough to find a publisher to marry your words to paper and send it out so other people can find it and love it.

I think that sort of self-doubt plagues ANY of us *true* artist types. When we write from our hearts and pour our souls onto paper, any criticism can feel like a personal attack.

Personally, I wonder this all the time. I'm making a huge effort to make a go of this (not sacrificing work or family life, of course), and I'd be a fool if I didn't wonder if I was wasting my time with it all.

I make a pact with my wife that I'd be honest about how she looks in her jeans if she'll be honest about my writing...and she's been really supportive. But it's hard to know *for sure* whether her praise is biased at all.

In the end, I think I'm going to have to agree with other posters here. I'm going to just put my work out there and see what happens. I'm confident enough in my ideas and abilities that I'll let the world judge me for themselves. At this point, that's all I can do.

I see lots of folk who say they right because they have to write.

Really? Because I don't have to write. In fact, as soon as I sit down at the computer to write, there are a million other things I suddenly remember I have to do. Walk the dogs. Fold the laundry. Check my email. Make some tea. And so on.

Whenever someone says they have to write, I am reminded of Anne Lamott's essay "Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life." In the section about first drafts, she writes "The whole thing would be so long and incoherent and hideous that for the rest of the day I'd obsess about getting creamed by a car before I could write a decent second draft."

I don't have to write at all. But because I do write, I sure as hell have to edit. It's like wearing clean underwear. You never know when you might get hit by a bus.

Err... write, not right.

See what I mean about why I have to edit?

Talent is so subjective. Some people have a vivid imagination or wonderful stories but struggle to REALLY draw people in. Others have bland stories that are told in a spectacular way. Which is better? The fact of the matter is that it is very rare for an individual to have equal talent creating a story and telling it... those authors stand out for a reason.

I'm pretty sure I am a talented writer because this one time, I had a woman ask for my autograph just based on some ideas I told her I had for books. Granted she had been wine tasting all day before that, but still. I guess there's no real way to know if one has talent, so we each have to go by our own criteria. For some that would mean being published, for others, not so much...

A few years after the series finished, I went back and re-read the first couple Harry Potter books. As an older, better educated reader who knew the ending and the characters weren't as shiny as they were when I first read it... ouch. Ms. Rowling's writing definitely improved by the end of the series.

And that leads into my argument: talent is only one part of getting published in today's market. With sweeping successes of people like Dan Brown and Stephanie Meyer, it's hard to come up with an original idea that'll wow the "business people who can get you published." Many of them are looking for the next J.R.R. Tolkien. If the story isn't grabbing, it may not be the fault of your writing. To succeed in today's market, you need more than talent- you need VISION.

That said, if you don't get published, that doesn't mean you don't have talent. Talent and vision alike are in the eye of the beholder. But low-talent, high-vision is more likely to get published, because it'll entertain the general audience. If you have vision, and talent, even better. You'll enchant them.

So, how do you know if you have talent? You have talent if people are reading your short stories/novels and getting to the end. Your writing is enough to get them there. But vision? Vision's harder.

As a writer, I don't know if I have vision or not. But I'm sure as hell going to make my book sparkle and shine and make it look like I do.

I have read (or tried to read) many published novels by authors with little talent. I also know several truly talented individuals who will never be published. The difference? The unpublished lack the essential 99%-perspiration component that completes the process. Even with talent, it's just hard work!

Nathan,

Can I turn this question around on you?

As a soon-to-be-published author, what made you believe that you had writing talent?

christine-

I had serious doubts until I found an agent. Once that happened I began to breathe easier. Luckily I have an insanely supportive wife who believed in me and kept me going even when I wasn't so sure.

I think this happens with a lot of things. There seems to be a path to true understanding:

1. First try at something. You're just getting acquainted with this new thing (first few days)
2. You start to get the feel for this thing (a couple weeks or a month)
3. You're getting the hang of this, and think you're a bit good(6 months?).
4. You think that you used to be bad, even though you used to think you're good (18 months). You're finally good enough to realize you have a lot to learn
5. This is the hard step, where you finally know what good is. And you just have to get good at it. You could spend your whole life here, but at least you (hopefully) are able to make a good judgement of where you are.

Timelines may vary based on person/subject.

So, basically, you're just a schmuck like the rest of us.

:o)

Hi Nathan,

Just checked back and saw your response on Graphic Design.

There are lots and lots of bad designers out there. Just as there are lots and lots of bad published writers. I'm not sure if that's a sign of slipping standards or if I'm just getting old.

It's a no-win argument. If I say that bad writers (and designers) should quit, then I'm called all sorts of names like elitist and what not. If I say they should stay in the business, then I'm told that the industry should be held up to a common standard of quality.

You haven't really tipped your hand, though. What are your thoughts on it?

anon-

I feel like the worst professional graphic designers are still probably pretty good if they're making a living at it. And I feel similarly about published authors: if they're published and people are paying them for it they're generally doing something right.

I just disagree with the sentiment that "there are so many terrible published writers so who can say really?" You may not personally like their work, but published writers are still doing something right. It's not a crapshoot, at least not in the sense that you could throw a dart at a query pile and whatever you hit has just as much of a chance of succeeding as something an expert picks out.

Nathan,

Sorry if that statement was a little ambiguous. I know that most published writers have some sort of talent. But I'm aware that the world runs on connections and that there are people who get published because they're someone's nephew or wife. And as I write that, I guess your point has rammed home. In a modified, warped way. I suppose you either have to have talent or have to be very well connected.

Just like in graphic design.

Well played, sir.

Then there’s the Rodmans who never played until community college and became a star. Perhaps not the best, but definitely a star. There are these writers too.

And there's also the Mo Williams of writers, who talk a lot of smack but can't deliver.

I don't really understand the idea that "genre" and "literary" are somehow two different things. One is about setting/content and the other seems to have something to do with either philosophical import or artistic style. Or both.

And "YA" ... isn't that a target demographic?

So long as a question like "Do you write literary fiction, sci-fi, or YA?" doesn't immediate lead us to question the sanity of the questioner, this entire subject is doomed to confusion, and to otherwise intelligent people talking past each other.

To me, this looks like a 3D matrix with genre along the X axis, pulp-literary quality constituting the Y axis, and children-YA-adult on the Z axis.

And, just to make things fun, let's imagine it as a tesseract with story length as the W axis. :-)

For example, "The Sneetches" is a fantasy, literary, children's short story. It (x) takes place in an imaginary, low-tech setting, (y) addresses very serious philosophical issues, (z) was written for children, and (w) is *mumble mumble* words long.

Literary vs. genre makes about as much sense to me as liberal vs. height, or expensive vs. color.

Okay... I'm not reading through over 300 comments, so if I repeat something someone else said, sorry.

Here's how I think of it, though. Some people may have a natural talent for writing and that's great. Some people think I have a natural talent for writing... maybe I do, but I'm more interested in the skill of writing rather than the talent for it.

Just because someone doesn't have the talent for something, doesn't mean that they can't develop the talent for it. For instance, there are people who can just play the piano like a pro from a young age because they have the talent. But I know plenty of people without natural talent who practice for years and years and can still play the piano beautifully.

Writing is the same as anything else... learn everything you can and practice, practice, practice... and eventually you can be just as good as anyone with "talent".

Naya

If people other than your immediate family and friends say they like your writing, when they see it published, you may have talent.

Publication itself is an indicator.
Publication for money is another indicator.
Publication for money for larger and larger periodicals might be another.
Each year earning more money writing might be an indicator.
Getting fiction into journals instead of nonfiction into mags might be an indication of talent.

Just my opinion.

If one of my pieces gets published, I have talent. Later, when I read the piece in print, I see all the flaws and think, nope. No talent.

When other writing colleagues give positive feedback on my writing, I've got talent.

When my friends and family read my work and then,
say
nothing,
I want to delete all my blog posts.

I guess it depends on who you're looking to for affirmation.

I will never stop writing. I am in love with it.
More than anything, I love writing songs and making music. So what I like to do is randomly start singing one of my songs in front of someone who I know, hasn't a clue that I wrote it. When I get a, "who sings that, I like it?!"...that's when I know I've done good :)
I think my 7 year old niece put it best. Last year she told her teacher for career day, that she wanted to be a writer and a singer like Aunt Monica. That sure made me smile. I laughed, thinking - no I'm not, I take care of elderly people! But then I realized - I am a writer, even if I'm not getting paid to do it!
I guess what I mean is, if it's in your heart...don't stop. And just because a company won't publish your book, doesn't mean it's not good - it just means it won't make them enough money.

Although I've had my fair share of rejections, enough of those rejecting agents have said they like my voice and my writing and have requested that I send future projects if I don't find anyone to take on my first book.

So there.

You're the last person I have to tell that writing talent doesn't get your book published. You have to have a platform so that publishers are sure they can make money out of the product (you).

I recently contacted a top (and I'm not just saying 'top' for emphasis, I mean 'top') non-fiction agent. We had a few e-mails going back and forth. He said he liked the project. He even said he agreed I had the talent and expertise to write the book. The end result was that he didn't take me on because my profile wasn't high enough.

My book(s) impressed him.
I am qualified to write them.
It's a great project.
BUT!
I don't have profile.

Sorry if I sound bitter. I'm not. Honest.

I have a 'Follow Friday' going on my newest blog. I've highlighted your site today because I think it's worth it. Don't worry, you don't have to do anything. It's not an award or anything like that. Here is the link http://www.abloggersbooks.com/2009/10/my-follow-friday-nathan-bransford.html

Wouldn't that be hard to tell... Some will like your writing and others wont. Look at Stephenie Meyer, some much more experienced writers (Stephen King for one) said she 'can't write for darn' and 'she goes to bed with a thesaurus'. I am a novice (and an extreme one at that) and as far as I can tell she even broke a few rules. But I for one (in something like 20,000,000) fell in love with her words. It is also to her credit that I am almost finished writing the first draft of my first YA Supernatural Romance novel. My mother has been reading excerts to her yr 7 classes and I already have groopies LOL. Fingers crossed; I might someday share her rung ;)

sites that promote writing (i.e. ning groups) are not a good place to find out your skills and talent (and/or gift)... i've yet to find one that wasn't tainted by cliques--thus, good writers are often ignored, where as really, really crap work, work that makes your hair hurt when you read it.. it is praised to the heavens by minions.

i have the talent... i need the focus.

I always wonder if I'm having an American Idol moment. You know, when you're watching the show and someone awful gets up and is a horrible singer. I'm thinking, wow, someone in their family really failed them. They should have told them not to make a fool of themselves on national TV.

Anyway, I don't know if this amounts to a hill of beans, but since everyone I know is biased, I tend look more for things that aren't said, or things that are said days later after our initial conversation/review. I ask them how long it took them to read the MS. If it took the vast majority a day or two, I take it as a good sign. If it takes longer then that, not such a good sign. I wait to see if they bring things up days later on their own, without me dragging the subject up. And not just the normal, "How's the book thing coming along?" stuff. I'm interested in if they want to discuss the actual book more. It means they've been thinking about it. Has any word of mouth stuff happened? Have they mentioned it to someone else on their own? Does that someone else now want to read it? Do they keep harassing me to get on with the next book, and can they read what I've got now? Even if tall that happens, I still wonder if I'm in that American Idol moment.

By the way, I'll be surprised if anyone reads comments that are two days after the original post. Of course, I guess I did.

As with most things in life a writer experiences all the growth stages from child to adult. And like a child, a teen, or a young adult we see ourselves as accomplished when, at that golden stage of maturity, we discover we never really were all that. But maturity is a moving target; a successful author never stops growing. Why? Because the market is forever changing. An agent's desk is the portal to this changing market and thus the first hint of talent for a writer is -- a request. Until then, we're only perfecting a sill until the maket decides it's talent. --John Roundtree

Lord of the Geeks, I read it. :)

I think the American Idol people would never ask for feedback in the way that you do - or if they hear it, they discount it. Someone like you, who takes in every word, and looks for sign - you're a very different type of person.

I would be money you're not an American Idol type.

I've learned that it really doesn't matter if your work is good, you like it, others like, it even catches an agents eye. What matters is "who" you are, not "what" you do. If you don't already have a platform and your name out there, then the big wigs really don't want to deal with you.
Catch 22 or what?

Rather than ramble on, I totaly agree with Icy, the end reader decides. Part of my inspiration to write was because I couldn't find anything at the bookstore to read, simply put I write what I want to read. Hopefully others will like my work too.

Question for Nathan.

I have a 70-something (sorry, she's 72) MC but I was thinking of submitting the story as YA. Will the characters age be a huge deal?

After reading the posts by Gordan and J, I went back to re-read Nathan's post, thinking I must have misinterpreted what he was saying, but now I don't think I did.

J's examples of Schindler's LIst, Driving Miss Daisy, and The Poisonwood Bible (not to mention such classics as A Separate Peace and To Kill a Mockingbird) are exactly the kind of books Nathan was praising--books that tell wonderful, rich stories. The language is beautiful, yes, and the themes are strong, but none of them would have worked had they not been great STORIES as well.

It seemed to me that Nathan was not saying, "Hey, y'all, write me some crap," but that he was saying, "Don't sacrifice the story in an attempt to write great art."

As David pointed out, if you write a great story, the theme will take care of itself.

I currently write a Sims story that I share for free. But hey, if one day I write a straight text story and get paid for it that's cool. I don't think that money is really the issue here.

My story, based in the Sims game though it may be, has themes. It has ideas. It has metaphors and symbolism. True, I had no idea of any of that when I started it and I've found most of it by looking back and thinking about it after the fact, but it's there.

While writing the last update I spent a good few hours looking for one word, one word with the right sound and length and meaning to fit in with the rest of the update.

I am aiming to write quality literature. I see writing as art. I admit, I identify as a writer and as an artist. Honestly yesterday at work I was thinking about writing the end (which is quickly coming upon me) and started shaking.

The majority of the audience for Sims stories are teenagers.

My feedback tends to be along the lines of "I just sat at my computer for three hours and read the whole thing. I couldn't stop." and "How many updates are left? I don't want this to end!" and "This is my favorite Sims story." and "Generally I'm not into metaphor and stuff but I love this."

I was quietly proud the day I looked through the post history of a high school boy who said "Sweet Jesus this is good." and found him whining about having to read Jane Eyre for school in another thread. Jane Eyre is my favorite book. ;)

Why does it have to be either/or?

I don't think that you guys are really arguing against literature and art. I think that you're arguing against pretentious crap. And there is a difference between good writing with ideas behind it and being pretentious and snobby.

And the classist assumptions in the comments are amusing.

My parents were factory workers. I went to a working class rural high school that only had four AP classes. I have a two year degree in information systems. I took creative writing twice in high school but I'm certainly no MFA.

How does that make me stupid and unable to understand or enjoy great literature? I don't recall a gate on the classics aisle that would only let you in if your parents made x amount of money.

I would argue that literature that doesn't have mass appeal cannot be called great. I'm not sure it could even be called literature.

Sorry - I just had to stick up for those of us who see writing as an art. Art is not elitist. Art is not pretentious. Art is universal. That's what makes it art.

bryan-

Happy Birthday, and yes, that is what I was saying. (also agree with Beth that some of the books J cites are at that intersection of quality/accessibility).

Although I have to say, I mostly agree with J. I agree that challenging works of literature should be celebrated rather than denigrated by the masses. I cringe every time someone says an author like Faulkner sucks because the language is difficult to understand. To each their own, but just because it's challenging doesn't mean it's bad.

My tastes have a definite literary lean, so I didn't intend to give ammunition to the "mass appeal is all that matters" crowd. I'll be posting more about this on Thursday.

So, on topic, this is partly the economy. People want more escapism when times are rough.
When things ease up, people will want more thoughtful literature again.

So, Bryan, good morning!

I looked all over for a cake that said "Die, City of Windsor, Die" because I thought that was a lovely birthday sentiment, but oddly enough I couldn't find one.

I'm sure that's what he's saying though:

Happy Birthday, Bryan!

Have a great day!

Gordon has a point.

If you accept Nathan's own argument then he's pounding the nails into the coffin of his own profession. If we no longer need agents to screen for quality and simply judge works based on "sell-ability" then we only need publish those works that pass a "democratization" standard.

And we don't need agents to do that. With instant feedback via the web, one can find works of popularity instantly. Take Urbis as one of many examples where works can be posted and read for free and "rated."

Agents have relinquished their own value in that they have become nothing more than gatekeepers of their own tastes, which has increasingly become monolithic in its triteness.

Glad you said that. I hadn't given theme a second thought - until my novel was published. The book is read primarily by students who have to write book reports. They asked me what my theme was. After lengthy consideration I discovered a theme and a motif - whew!
I suspect theme often emerges as the story unfolds but I have no intention of making theme a starting point. Thank you very much for your thoughts on this.

anon-

You're taking what I said way too far. It's not that everything has become debased and that publishers no longer care about quality. They do - they care immensely, and I think the intense competition to get onto the bookshelf is resulting in superior books overall. Ever read the pulps of another era? They're almost laughable by today's standards.

People always think that everything is getting worse - I don't think they are getting worse. They're just changing.

Superior? In what regard?

Perhaps according to YOUR tastes and those of your profession.

Unlike most of your minions here on this board, some people still like a little depth and meaning and !GASP! buy those books.

Why? Because life is more than just about titillation, clever short-lived gratification, though there's nothing wrong with those ends in moderation.

Some of us actually think that in order for life to be full and whole that we need some things that are provocative, inspiring, and involve a little elucidation of life's quandaries and, yes, "themes".

We are 5-10 years away from the death of the publishing industry as we know it. No, not just a changed industry, but actual dodo bird, pony express extinction.

There will come a time very soon where we can all explore our own tastes (rather than peruse bookshelves filled with the tastes of agents) and pick and choose what we want and obtain it instantly.

Everything Just Makes Me Laugh

I remember when I was getting my MFA (in poetry) - I had a job in the art department. One of the people running the art department commented, re: painting, "everything that can be done to a canvas has already been done." And I had a friend who was an MFA student in painting - sitting right there, and I saw the look on his face - hurt? shock? disappointment? - what was that expression on his face when he heard those words?

***

Has everything that can be done to a printed page (or a Kindle screen) already been done?

*** (guess I'm in an asterisk-y mode today)

And then, I think when people criticize "literary" fiction, really, they are talking about "academic" fiction - I mean, just think of the thousands of people employed (that is, getting paid) right now! at this moment! to deconstruct, recontextualize, interpret, obfuscate, and in general analyze "literary" texts - at universities across the country - and in this particular line of employment, obviously, you're going to gravitate towards really complex texts, sans plot almost, because that's how you can best demonstrate your analytical chops, and get more money in your paycheck!! Woo-hoo!!

Well, I don't want to sound completely cynical (sure, why not!) - but definitely in poetry (which NB does not represent, and I assume the major reason is, there's no PAYING audience for it, in sufficient numbers), because it is so embedded in the analycentric (that's analysis + centric, although the word does seem to inadvertently reference an anatomical nether region) - in the analycentric "academy," narrative and plot are way down the list of admirable qualities in a poem, and complexity, even incomprehensibility, are way up! Because that gives you something to write about in your papers for literary journals, AND something to "teach" your students in the classroom.

Nature abhors a vacum!

***

Yes, this is the kind of comment that pours forth, when you have orange-flavored dark chocolate for breakfast.

Well, to boil it all down - there's a small market for obscure literary fiction (and poetry) within the "academy." That's where the (small amount of) money is for that kind of fiction/poetry. Luckily for fiction, there's all other kinds of stuff that people will pay money for. Poetry, not so much (although I loved the Pushkin-flavored Golden Gate poenovel...poemovel? Rhymes too much with hovel...)

Anyway, that is my chocolate-flavored opinion this morning (er, noon).

Wanda B.

I don't think it matters if you're writing literary or commercial fiction, theme has to come out of character. And should always be subtle.
As a writer, you don't consciously choose a theme. You put well drawn characters into a story idea. The main character has deep issues and beliefs to explore through the story narrative and those explorations will (if written well) be left in the mind of the reader at the end of the story.

Title of an MFA CRW thesis: It's a wooden leg, Ishmael, get the literal meaning down and the figurative will follow. Ahab's peg leg is a whale bone.
----
Not all that long ago the Big Six publishers still accepted unsolicited manuscripts. Agents weren't gatekeepers. (The Six Sisters, transnational publishing corporations, Bertelsmann, CBS Corporation, Hachette, News Corporation, Pearson and Verlagsgruppe. The Big Six U.S. conglomerates, Random House, Inc., Penguin Putnam, Inc.,
HarperCollins, Holtzbrinck Publishing Holdings, Time Warner,
Simon & Schuster, Inc., circa 2008) Not all that long before the big houses stopped accepting unsolicited manuscripts, literary agents were few and far between. Thousands now. It wasn't all that far in the distant past that writing workshops didn't exist. And not too terribly long ago, there weren't any book publishers as we know them today, just job shop book printers and binders. The advent of mass market and trade paperbacks in the early 20th Century changed the literature landscape. Technology changed the process markedly in the 20th Century. The one certainty of the future is change.

1947 357 publishers
2009 90,000 publishers with active ISBNs.

anon (or should I say Gordon)-

If your criteria for the excellence is that more books are published than ever before and readers get to decide what they want to read... guess what. More books are published than ever before every single year.

But hey - I agree, the industry's in for a major reckoning. Information can be delivered a lot easier when it's not bound in paper. The newspapers are figuring this out now, people will soon migrate over for most books too. It's going to be wildly different.

And I wouldn't fixate on agents - it's not our tastes that are on the shelves, it's publishers' tastes. I've said it once, I'll say it again: I can't force a publisher to buy anything.

All very interesting. As often happens with me, I find myself on the fence. I would like to sell a million copies but I would also like to be remembered a hundred or two years from now. Which want is wrong? Either? Neither? This could give a guy a headache.

I have signed up for NaNoWriMo (first time, wheeee!) and the novel I have in mind could easily lend itself to dense and inaccessable(?) but I hope the speed at which I will have to write it will force me to take a lighter and, hopefully, more readable path.

Anyway, good thread. I'm off to lay in provisions for next month. Must have coffee and munchies.

Word Ver: wignoc - Is that anything like a Gibbs slap to the back of the head?

The publication marketplace is diffusing toward digital delivery of literature, but I think that's just a passing fascination trend with prestige and convenience appeal. The real strength of paper publication is it delivers the most personal, intimate, individual reading experience available, what makes reading meaningful to begin with. Digital publication technology creates an added degree or two of reader alienation from a text.

Correct. I should use the term "agents" and "publisher" interchangeably, given that they are really cut from the same cloth. I actually wonder how many agents came out of a background in the pub houses originally. 50+% at least I bet, so what's the difference, really? I mean you're basically selling a colleague who is like minded.

And no, I am not Gordon. Obviously he has no problem posting his very candid opinions under his own name, so it makes no sense to assume that anything I have said is anymore candid requiring anonymity were I him. Grief! Seems you would do well to read something a bit more demanding intellectually yourself.

Anon at 9:24:

You are assuming that I refer only to digitally available media.

Quite to the contrary, there will come a day when one can peruse, sample, and choose online one's own tastes directly from authors and consortiums of authors, then if one chooses, order and instantly on demand printed hardcopy book be sent directly to you, all sans agents and trad. pub houses.

That will be a blissful day!

anon@9:26-

I'm not sure why you keep denigrating my tastes since they run toward the literary, and all of my upcoming titles skew literary, even the ones that are genre fiction.

As I said further up in the thread, my intent wasn't to celebrate mass appeal over everything else. All I'm saying is that the current trend in culture and in the industry is moving toward accessibility over the esoteric. Don't conflate that with my own likes and dislikes.

Authors, lets all imagine what exactly I have envisioned as actually occurring:

What it would mean is that you would "query" and "pitch" your work directly to the consumer. You'd provide a query and sample and still be blurbed by others, basically all self marketed totally. Authors would be categorized and combined by genre etc etc etc. Just imagine it.

The success of your work would be purely a function of the quality and appeal of your own writing and your own efforts to market it.

Talk about "democratization"!

Oh, BTW - I am a current "traditionally" pubbed author sick of pub house BS.

By 'BS' I mean that the industry's narrow mindedness has become so pervasive at all levels that it now has a bizarre personality cult feel to it.

Its revolting and totally counter to an environment where artists and art can thrive.

So my final advice to aspiring artists is ignore the admonitions of agents. Read prolifically first and decide what you like and want to write, then write what YOU want and write everyday.

If you desire to write commercial, fine, then do that, but don't let anyone tell you that's your only option if you desire otherwise.

good luck

Anon 9:51,

I feel your pain, but... what you're talking about is a massive, unregulated slushpile full of millions of titles, much of which will be terrible. And the general customer (who is not a hardcore bookperson) does not want to wade through millions of titles trying to find one good book to take on vacation... they want to snag a book off a bestseller's table on the way to the local GAP store.

I mean, who's scanning through all the Lulu titles looking for their next read?

Just my take.

Hey, so I was sort of skimming the Anons above. It all started running together in terms of: angry person who thinks publishing sucks and isn't really interested in what anyone else is saying. But then I noticed something important:

I'm a minion.

Awesome. That is so cool.

I've always wanted to be a minion. I don't know exactly what a minion does, but whatever it is, I want to do it.

So, what are my job duties? What's my first minion-like assignment. I'm ready to be brain-washed, bring it on.

Also, sorry to bring this up so early in my new minion job, but do minions have health insurance? Because I have this weird feeling in my toe. I think I need to have it looked at.

(Note: If this post is deleted, I shall accept it like a good little minion, who is feeling playful.)

anon (or should I say Gordon)-

Oh don't get paranoid. I've never posted anything anonymously in my life. I find it distasteful, and I'm way too much of an attention-hound. Plus, I don't give a f... what other people think. In fact, I'd rather they disagreed and hated me (Bad press is the best press, you should know that as an agent.).

So I assure you, and I'm only going to say this one time, I am not one of the anons in your blog.

Besides, I completely agree with what you say below:

And I wouldn't fixate on agents - it's not our tastes that are on the shelves, it's publishers' tastes. I've said it once, I'll say it again: I can't force a publisher to buy anything.

If you didn't give a ____ what people thought, you wouldn't respond to them or post at all.

I have observed some interesting responses in my crit group.
The group is eclectic and all are smart, educated, well read, informed, and open minded.

The esoteric writing is admired in pieces and rarely understood as a whole. The typical response is that it makes the reader work too hard.

The enthusiasm in the group for someone's writing seems to escalate when there is a fast moving, followable plot AND the writing is delicious, conveys the writer's voice well, AND–like the plot should be–is also followable.

i.e., If it reads like a beautifully filmed well-timed, strongly plotted movie.

Do you lose yourself in it and come away breathless?

The theme is the juicy stuff you take to the coffee house afterwards. I love the underlying levels, but the plot is what carries everything. (I have been learning how not to hide the plot!!)

Wow, I was debating just this thing in my head. Thanks!

Holy Bejesus! Did I ever miss a fun debate yesterday?!

That'll teach me to have work to do.

The first thing I write every morning, before working on my novel or a short story or whatever, is a message on my whiteboard: "Artisan at work." May seem corny, but it helps put me in mind to create something that others can also appreciate.

I guess I don't see it at odds with "literary fiction"--but neither is it "artsy."

I'd love to print your blog out and give it to all the English teachers my kids have now and have ever had. They can easily kill the love of reading for kids.
Was talking to my son's tutor this summer. My son will read To Kill a Mockingbird this year. The tutor went on and on and about the symbolism of it. I loved that book, but only because it was a good story. And I identified with Scout.
And yes, I'd rather write something people want to read.

I'm having a hard time writing what I REALLY want my character's age to be, 38, because I'm told that (and this is really revealing my inner dream and sense of optimism) younger actresses looking for good movie roles, including those in their early 40s, won't accept a role where the character is over 30. !?! I know! Of course there's Cate Winslet who's taking roles decades older than herself, but that is rare. there seems to be a 40 year old cut off for top actresses, until they reach the Susan Sarandon, Meryl Streep stratisphere.

Any comments on how to determine a character's age based on how you view the FILM(!) ?

How come no one is pointing this one out yet? I don't intend to start a gender war her, but the term 'something' associated with age was created by women.

As you said, Nathan. There's a big difference between 21 and 29. Think of the bigger difference between 41 and 49.

:)

When a police officer in a crime story does profiling, they bundle up victims or wanted criminals in certain age groups, hence the 'something'.

A writer has to be clear of his character's age, true. But the character can choose to be specific or not about her age depending on whether or not she wants to be mysterious and alluring.

It depends. If it's a major character, I'd like an age, or even a 'late-twenties' or 'early forties'.

With walk-ons, I'm okay with '-something'.

I'm sort of on the side of the more important the character (or scene or object), the more detail I expect. For walkons, I don't care if the dogwalker is 20-something and carrying a cup of coffee. I don't need to know if it's Starbucks or McD's. If we're expected to meet the dogwalker, then we need an age and a brand of coffee.

I'm not so much bothered by the lack of specificity--what bothers me about "thirty-something" etc. is that it sounds so trite. It's a cliché, and by ascribing it to your character, it makes him or her a cliché, too. Real people are not thirty-somethings or twenty-somethings, but caricatures are.

I think it makes the reader feel like the character is ashamed of his age. If you don't say the real age you wonder why that's the case. Just my opinion...

I would only use it for groups, as in, "A cluster of twenty-somethings stood by the bar complaining about their jobs."

The real answer is, of course, "It depends."

A strong writer who is otherwise selecting words (especially verbs) carefully, can use that bit of vaguery to great effect.

It's a problem when the rest of the writing is also vague and non-specific.

In a sea of specific, a non-specific descriptor can 1) (ironically) stand out or 2) provide a subtle reinforcement of more descriptive statements nearby.

There's cultural information packed inside that phrase. The challenge is to understand the additional meaning so that the phrase is used with deliberate intent and not merely because it was the first thing to leap to mind.

So really, it depends. And I would also add that if you are noticing and are irritated by the use, then it's probably not well done.

taken out of context, it doesn't bother me, perhaps in the mismatched wardrobe of poor writing it would be the glaring sight of a tee shirt tucked into boxers.

Just an after thought. How do you feel about people who say things (as I occasionally do) such as "I recently celebrated the twenty fourth anniversary of my thirty ninth birthday"?

I would say that if a character is defining him or herself or another character as decade-something, it makes sense. If the author gives the age of a main character in those terms, then it doesn't.

There isn't always a huge difference between a 21 year old and a 29 year old. Often, for sure, but I'd think that if the author is saying twenty-something, they're saying the character's age isn't something they want to define that character. I would argue it's like leaving out the character's height and weight; sometimes they're important for the story, but often, they're just not.

I think it depends on the circumstances in the story, and the tone of the book. If the story's being told from the POV of a character who would use that expression, then it's appropriate. Saying either "Yes, you can do that whenever you want" or "No, you can never do that" is massive oversimplification.

Angie

I agree with Flemmily. I tend to think it means at the older end of the decade mentioned. It implies a caution about telling your age, so the character must have a certain need to be vague about his/her age. Or if the story's setting were, say, in a bureaucratic office with the twenty-somethings being the singles connected to a singles scene after work and the thirty-somethings were the getting married and beginning families crowd, and the forty-somethings were multitasking away their existences between carpooling kids and being involved in extremely competitive careers and the fifty-somethings were struggling with fitness issues, etc. Then the use of it would pigeon hole the author's character into a type not just an age.

"Twenty-something, (etc.)" seems more like a casting thing for movies or tv.

It is all about perception. How does the woman/man/child/alien/vampire,etc
look to the other character(s)?

Where it becomes trickiest, for me anyway, is when there is an age progression. The movement from childhood to adulthood so that, um different things can happen while retaining the personality of the character is challenging.
So I think, eighteen may be too young for some activities, twenty-one may still be too young. Twenty-four or twenty-five moreso, twenty-eight is good for the man but the woman should be twenty-four.But then again, where (????) were they between eighteen and twenty-one?
(I could pull my own hair out.)

So the basic question remains: how important is defining just exactly what age that is? It might affect different readers differently. It also might just clutter up the writing, all those factoids. Once they are um of age they are no longer without the right gear.

I also think that "Thirteen Moons" is just Excellent in age progression, as an example. And he is very specific.

I think it works well for plurals.

Two thirty-something women.

I mean, what are you going to say? Karla is thirty-two and Samantha is thirty-four.

It doesn't bother me, although I think it's the best fit for light fiction.

Nathan, it depends on where the phrase is. In one of my novels, a character assesses another character as "twenty-something" because he cannot know the actual age. Yes, he could also say "in her twenties," but if the quicker phrase communicates, why not?

Prescience or insanity?

It can't be both?

Ha. I'm joking. I don't even know what that means, I just thought it'd be fun to say.

I think if I were reading queries, this would bother me. I'd be trying to quickly get a detailed sense of the story. Not knowing the age would keep things vague. Also, I'd wonder how well the author knows his own MC, if he doesn't even know their age. Or if he was just trying to be clever, which would probably be irritating after the 5,639th query.

In a book - I pretty much agree with what people said - it depends on the author's intent. It could be used well, or used poorly.

In the same vein, would it be ok in a story/query to refer to your protags as "college-aged kids"? Or should you be like "College Kid A is 19, College Kid B is also 19, but looks 5."

Idk, I try not to put ages exactly into the text, but giving their age an approximation by saying that they are juniors at university.

I understand your point, Nathan. I mean a 21-year-old is far different than a 29-year-old, but it doesn't bother me that much. For one thing, even 21-year-olds are different from one another. I've known mature ones that seemed to be in their thirties, and I've known not-so-mature ones that don't seem out of their teen years yet. I figure the dialogue and action will tell me more than a specific age.

Of course, I don't see such expressions as often as you do, I imagine. :-)

I should clarify, however, that I always give specific ages in my writing.

Posting a comment to this as it is the latest entry, but I have a question about a previous post regarding writing a manuscript.

Nathan, you talk about having page numbers on every page except chapter pages, but I'm using Word, so, does anyone know how I can do this? Have tried going through page setup and header/footer setup, but no joy.

btw, writing my FIRST DRAFT of my FIRST NOVEL, woohoo!

oh, and, I agree with using thirty-something, but not twenty-something. When people are between the ages of 27 and 37 - they are at that stage where it'd be impossible to guess their age - that's what i think anyways.

Cheers

The more I write, the more I see that firm detail is very important. The best advice I've taken and not give at every opportunity is "a thing either 'is' or 'is not'" So in this instance, a character is either 27 or 30 or 10.

I really like Kate Higgins' suggestion, to indicate characters ages through milestones.

My book's main characters are a 32-year-old man and a 29-year-old woman, who both put their careers ahead of relationships and have been dating for three months when the plot starts.

I find myself counting backwards to make sure I know how many years ago they were at various points in their lives, and I guess that people who create vital characters of indeterminate age don't want to have to do this.

I pretty much agree with all your comments. At least say "early, mid-, or late twenties." That narrows it down somewhat.

But I also think in some novels it's more important than others. Adult novels don't seem to rely quite as much on age to tell the story. However, children's and YA literature are all based around the development at a specific age, so tell what age that is.

One of the first things I come up with when I start developing a character is his/her exact age.

I work at an independant.

One thing that people often forget when the whole 'price' thing comes up is that price is not the only factor in buying books. It is a big factor, but it's not the only one. For a lot of us, it's also about the experience. Generally with selling books, the cheaper you get, the more impersonal you get. And a lot of people don't like their book buying experience being an impersonal one.

Walking into an independant bookstore and having staff chat with you and track down the perfect book to suit your needs is very, very different to going to a huge chain and pulling the same book out of a bargain bin, and very different again to buying an electronic version online. A lot of my customers are people I know by name, people who come back over and over. And while there's a large number of people who are obsessed with getting the lowest possible price, and people who find it more conveniant to buy online, these people are not generally my customers to start off with.

But am I scared? God yes. It's always been a tough fight for an independant bookshop to stay afloat, and it only seems to be getting harder.

I know the experience of buying books is important. I'm just hoping it's important enough.

I don't think books are going to fade away completely - at least not any time soon. There's a tactile component of reading a book you can't get with an e-reader. You can toss it around, spill things on it, pile 60 pounds of textbooks on top of it, wave in you BFF's face when you got the last copy of the "hot" book she really wanted because you stood in line for the 12:01 debut at the store (in costume!)and she didn't. And you don't have to recharge them.

Sure things are changing, but the multi-media aspects of digital reading (interactive maps, pictures, etc.) open doors for more content than a printed book can allow.

Places like Wal-Mart have always had competitor price matching, and they've always had the volume buying power to keep their prices down. It's a sales tactic - they can do the same sales on the major titles as B&N with only a fraction of the space required. Target's got similar abilities. They'll eventually equalize.

RR-

"Publisher's don't get 50% of the revenue from the price of a book"

Just to clarify, publishers do generally get 50% of the list price for a book, which is what the ABA points out in their argument against the price cutting by the chains. Also, according to the ABA, as far as anyone knows the publishers aren't offering WalAmaTarGears special terms.

"And the writer still gets his/her 10/12/15% or 7 1/2/% or 8/10% of what the publishers get, so no one looses out but the middle man."

Writers generally receive these royalties based on the list price, not on what the publishers receive.

"Readers should be retrained to but their books directly from the publishers digitally, which cuts the cost of everything and gives more money to the writer and saves the planet."

I'm not sure that this will fly with consumers, who want a one-stop shopping experience, or with authors, unless they're willing to share more revenue with the authors when they sell directly.

May I just say something that seems to be getting ignored in all the Amazon/Walmart hoopla?

People who buy books will continue to buy books. I go into a Target, and I buy a book that appeals to me. Yes, their prices are part of that appeal. But after I go to Target, I go to Borders, which, on a good day, carries other books, the ones in the mid-list that aren't going to be discounted, and I buy a few more books.

And then I go wireless on my Kindle, and I buy yet more books.

I buy books because I read. If there's a book I want, I will buy it, pretty much regardless of the price.

So, rather than fighting about who's going to charge what, make the full-sale books appealing to the bookbuyer, and really, there shouldn't be a problem.

The REAL problem, as I see it, is that fewer bricks and mortar stores are carrying those mid-list books that I would gladly pay full price for. And if I can't find them, then I won't buy them.

Well, since we're on the subject of Wal-Mart, here are some photos of your new target audience...

www.peopleofwalmart.com

How close to the minimum possible are the prices of printed books now?

If there were no more mega advances, there'd still be all sorts of fixed costs that can't be eliminated or reduced significantly. That's the impression I have, anyway.

POD machines in bookstores would eliminate warehousing and distribution costs, but the cost of each book would then be fixed at a higher price than can be attained by printing lots of copies in specialized print shops.

Nathan,

Please clarify for me: If Wal-mart is charging only ten dollars (10) per hardcover, though the hardcover price is typically (25) dollars, who gets what?

Thanks.

Toby-

On a $25 hardcover:

WalMart pays roughly $12.50 and if they charge $8.99 they lose about $3.50

The author usually gets 10-15% of the list price, so let's say 10% and $2.50. Deduct 15% agent commission ($0.38) and they get about $2.12.

Publisher gets $10 ($12.50 minus author share), which covers cost of the book, shipping, overhead, and (hopefully) profit.

I love change. It's so exciting to be a writer in 2009.

This is the future. Everything moves faster now. Technology means products become outdated the minute they become available.

Things won't be "settling down." They'll only move faster and change more often.

This new reality isn't good or bad. It's just different. Those of us who take advantage of the new landscape will thrive. Those who sit around and complain will fail.

Thanks for presenting this with a rational viewpoint, Nathan.

The worst thing any of us can do is panic. Irrational fear makes situations seem worse than they really are and it makes tides harder to turn.

The bottom line (as I see it) is still reassuring: people are buying and selling books, and an influx of capital to the publishing houses is not a bad thing if they can reinvest it wisely.

If someone starts whacking large droves of readers, then I'll panic. Mostly because I would fear being on the hit list, but also as a writer who sees his potential audience going under...

The compensation and pricing models will change, but that's an eventuality in any given free market. This is the time when the creative persevere by using their resources to adapt to the new selling environment.

When I buy a good bottle of wine for $8.99, it does not make me think all wine should be $8.99. I'm just happy I found a great deal, and I still buy more expensive bottles.

What does this price war signal to me? Likely it means we'll have the top ten holiday sellers each year now which are priced ridiculously low. Publishers can't afford to cave on pricing in general. I personally don't buy books at places like Walmart or Target, except for one or two authors. Even then, it's usually from Amazon. The boxes have crap for selection, truly poor. They're there for impulse buying generally. Why they don't park the top ten books by the cash registers along with candy I don't know. With such a convenience oriented culture, it's hard to imagine life ever becoming good again for the individual bookstore. The ones that do survive will find ways to tap into this necessity of convenience. I believe the deep discount will work to sell more of the best sellers, which of course helps the publisher. It won't help the box stores much, because I don't think folks are going to hit up their local bigbox for a new release and then buy other things while there. It works far more the other way around. Pushing your cart of groceries by the book aisle and seeing the new King book for $9 will make you more likely to toss it in the cart, but that person didn't come in for it in the first place. Hopefully they'll see the good deal and stop to gander at other titles (all 57 of them) and buy a second book. At least it will help the very few authors who get their books into these stores in the first place.

Somehow the image of the big dogs all at war reminds me of a very old Warner Bros. cartoon where everyone is in this huge pile throwing kicks and punches, when either Bugs or Daffy creeps out unnoticed from the bottom, holding the prize. (Was it a football?)

Anyway, I'd like to adopt this Looney Toons model of reality and hope some underdog manages to squeak past the tussle and beat the big ones at their own game.

I'm betting on the duck or the wabbit.

I think people need to keep this in perspective. They are only going to be able to do this with some top sellers, not all the books.

My book club doesn't read the best sellers (and there are 60 people in our club) we prefer to read first time authors and unknowns, we figure the Kings and Meyers make enough money, good on them, but they don't need more from us.

They can have all the price wars they want, I still love going into a small independent bookstore and browsing and supporting them.

The consumer has the power, if you don't like this policy, then don't shop there and don't buy your books there.

This may also help first time authors, in that the publishers will stop handing over inflated advances to big names, simply because of their name and not the quality of their writing or books.

Some of these authors have become like those football players who are way over-priced for what we are getting.

Without naming names, there is a best selling author who has written a series 15 books, and the price is overinflated. She writes the same dribble in each book, and basically has no respect for her readers because the books are shorter and the writing is lame, but she sells based on her name.

If nothing else, I can see a bright side to one point of news. If indeed e-readers become common and catch on and everyone starts reading books that way, the price of good old fashioned ink on paper shall likely decrease, and thus it becomes much easier to turn my collection of just shy of 400 books into a well and proper library.

I think it's the economy and this surely will not help. Well at least where I live. At the begining of the year you could drive about 5 miles and be at one of the local booksellers or at a major chain. Now unfortunately all the local booksellers folded much earlier this year and the only chain that remains is Books-A-Million. If I actually want to go to a bookseller I'm driving appoximately 40 miles to get to Books-A-Million and 60 miles to get to Barnes and Nobles. One thing is clear is that these economic times are taking a toll on everyone.

Oh, but "Anonymous" ... can you imagine being one of those writers? *dreams*

;^)

Relevant to this discussion, copies of WICKED author Gregory Maguire’s new novel, THE NEXT QUEEN OF HEAVEN, will be FREE, although with quite a few twists, including the expectation that people who receive a free copy will give money to charity or someone else in need: Article here.

Great post. Excellent information. Thanks!

And, really, that dog looks thoroughly miserable. Poor thing.

I hate to say it, but it sounds like a brilliant marketing strategy for Wal-Mart and Target.

For about $3.50 per book, they can attract more customers into their stores, and those customers will almost certainly buy other products while they are there.

$3.50 is a small expense to pay if their other sales/profits increase.

This could be really bad news for both the large and independent bookstore chains, where the sales from the bestsellers make up a significant portion of their profits.

If Wal-Mart and Target persists with the slashed pricing, book retailers of all sizes could be in danger of going out of business.

And if Wal-Mart and Target's price war goals are

(1) to increase foot traffic into their stores

AND

(2) to drive the larger book retailers out of business,

then they could easily afford reducing ALL books' costs for an indeterminable period of time - as long as the increase in their other products sales cover the per book loss.

Scary.

In a time when video games and big screen TVs are turning our kids (and some husbands) into zombies, Its refreshing to see the big chains put so much focus on book sales. Even if it's the big name authors who get the attention it ensures that those book aisles won't be replaced with guitar hero demos. And as much a I love to read words on pages and not monitors, e-books are examples of how the book industry is keeping up with a technology obsessed market.

Take a look at the size of Walmart's book section, compared to, say, Barnes & Noble's.

I'm no mathematician but wouldn't you estimate B&N carries at least 50 times as many books?

This is the part that worries me. If people start thinking Walmart is their destination for book purchases, and Walmart then starts to dictate what gets published... well, that means 98% of the books we now publish would not be published.

And writers think it's hard to get published now.

Why can't there be more Steve Fullers out there?

Good attitude, man. I'm with ya.

Someone on TeleRead mentioned that all the independents have to do is buy $9 books from Amazon and sell them at cost--a sort of Robin Hood redistribution of wealth. Interesting idea, though not viable in the long run.

Rachelle-

Definitely agree. I also think there's some confusion out there since the $8.99 deal is only available on pre-orders on WalMart.com for very few titles. But if there's a perception out there that people can get bestselling books very cheaply at physical WalMart stores that's going to drive people to the stores to look for books, further driving the consolidation, even if the deal is really only available on the website.

Nathan, you say "Right now, even as WalMart, Amazon, Target and Sears fight it out for e-tailing primacy, publishers are still receiving the standard amount for every copy sold, or roughly 50% of the hardcover list price, meaning WalAmaTargEars are the ones taking a loss."

What is it about book buyers in particular that these stores are willing to take such a loss just to get them into the store?

Nathan,
What's your bottom-line take on this in terms of how it will affect those of us who have finished our first novel (just this week)and are polishing that query letter to send out?

Should we continue? Will agents such as yourself continue to accept and/or read unsolicited query letters?

I'm not worried, mind you. I write because I must. But things HAVE gotten a bit cloudy of late.

Word verification: premi. As in "Is my concern premature?"

I like Rick's wine analogy - okay, maybe I just like wine, BUT if I get a great deal on a bottle (never $8.99 but we'll go with that), then I actually buy more expensive bottles to go along with it. I justify that I've saved money by finding a good deal and then spend more than I would have if I hadn't gotten the sale bottle. Also, I don't shop at Walmart - so there will still be people like me around feeding the book economy. I love buying books - and wine.

dana-

Most analysts I've read believe they're trying to use books as loss leaders so that people will buy other things. WalMart is trying to out-Amazon Amazon online, and so it made sense for them to go after their bread and butter. If WalMart, not Amazon, is perceived as having the cheapest books it cuts into Amazon's edge.

It's not so much about the books as it is about their broader businesses. That's also why some people are worried about them making so many inroads into the book market. As Eric at Pimp My Novel pointed out, books would have to compete with sofas, clothes, you name it for front-of-website treatment. Yet another challenge.

Sadly, even in New York City, bookstores have closed. Two of my favorite B&Ns closed a few months ago, and I'm still in shock. I've never found anything to read in Wal-Marts, except mass market paperbacks and some discounted hardcovers. The whole thing just makes me sad. Please buy all the e-books you want, but also try and keep your local bookstore in business.

Thanks, Terry.

I think Wal-Mart has earned a little satire. :)

A book is one item I select regardless of its price. If after I selected a book, I find a better price for it, I may go for that, but choosing a book based on its price...I don't think I have ever done that. Exciting new books, whatever their form or price may be, will for sure keep me!

I too am "holding on for the ride."

I learned a long time ago not to jump on the latest, newest, thing in technology.

"Wait for it" has become my mantra. And here is definitive proof; if you wait a few months, something new will happen. Something different, and at the very least, xomething more affordable.

Nothing new under the sun indeed.

..........dhole

Okay, as usual, the business side of things it abit beyond me.

Without really understanding it, I like with Susan Quinn said very much.

However, one part really stood out for me, as an author. And I do realize, of course, that this has definite effects on business - that it's scary for independent bookstores. I'm not trying to diminish that.

But here's what stood out for me.

On a $25 hardcover, the author makes $2.12.

On a 9.99 e-book, if the author gets 40%, which is what Amazon offers, after the 15% to the agent, the author gets $3.40.

I just find that really interesting.

Umm, you actually have to buy your dog the pirate costume AND the prisoner costume in order to get a free book. :)

Personally, I hate shopping online. I spend a lot more money when I go into a bookstory than I do online, because it takes too long to browse online. Online shopping for books is only good if I know what I want or if it's a special order, otherwise going into the bookstore is faster and more profitable for the retailer when it comes to my purchases. I walk into a bookstore to buy A paperback novel and I walk out with an armload of books that I couldn't leave in the store.

If the publishing business self-destructs, that will not mean the end of good stories, although they may or not still flourish in book form.

I expect to anger a lot of people here, most of whom write commercially or aspire to. I'll say this. If writing were no longer a way to make money, I think there would be fewer books (or stories) but better ones, because people would write from their heart, not their wallet.

The noveel I'm working on is from my heart. The main reason I expect to seek traditional publishing is that is the best way (at present) to reach a good audience. I will accept money if it comes, but that's not why I'm doing this.

I've also been checking into channels to publish work free on the web (e.g. blog novels) with an option for the reader to buy or donate. Some of the sites out there seem to be evolving toward providing a quality experience for the reader and a good prospective audience for the writer.

Let's see what happens.

-Steve

I'm going to stay anonymous because I don't want to get spammed for what I'm about to say.

I am a mom and hopeful writer, whose husband has been out of work a lot the past couple of years. He's in construction; I work part-time.

I don't buy books because I can't afford them. If they are not in the library, or someone doesn't loan me a copy, I don't get to read them. It means I miss a LOT. But what else can I do?

I am not thrilled about this whole Kindle thing... I don't want to read a book on a tiny screen the way Captain Picard read his Star Trek Enterprise mail. For one thing, staring at a computer screen for work is hard enough on the eyes.

And I can't afford a Kindle to begin with. And God forbid I drop it! Oh my word! I wouldn't be able to read any thing until it was repaired or replaced.

So what I'm saying is this... while I have been accused of being a hypocrite because I want to write but don't buy books, the simple truth is I can't afford them. Perhaps I'm old, but I think $5 is too much to pay for a gallon of milk, and $25 is too much to pay for a novel. That's 1/4 of $100 for something I will finish reading in about a day! I can take my whole family to the movies for that.

I don't expect to make money writing. I don't look at it for the income. I do it because I love it, and maybe I'll be able to earn a little side money eventually. I think of it as pizza money, basically. Or a car payment.

Not a living.

Not that our words aren't worth it, but that... it just ain't gonna happen, economically speaking. Only people who are wealthy (or childless) can afford the luxury of books.

At least, that's the way I see it.

No, wait a minute, it's been so long since I went to the movies that I've forgotten how expensive they are... unless we hit a second-run matinee, we can't even go to the movies for $25.

I guess that's why we don't go.

I planned a Dickens derivative in my new post, rethinking that.

I know that writers are by nature sensitive. But I think that the fear is not conducive to what they should be doing; getting on with being great and thinking of new ways to turn or go with the tide.

If anyone truly believes in their work and works to prove what they believe, they have nothing to worry about.

Thanks for throwing the horrid picture of the dog in the pirate costume in thee. I may have to gouge out my eyes. ^^

That said, I'm forwarding the link to my aunt, who will appreciate the horridness of it all. :-P

Thanks for your insight, Nathan! I almost bough a Kindle recently, and I'm glad I held off. The Nook looks... very exciting.

Kudos to Stephen King and waiting off.

The recent problem with our economy is going to affect the publishing industry, like any other, but will it be long-lasting? Will it be like the pirated music downloads or more reminiscent of the Dustbuster? Only time will tell. Will it kill my dream of becoming a published author? Maybe. Will it change the way I write or if I continue to write at all? No, because unlike most professions, being a writer isn’t contingent on your success or failure. If you are a writer, you write.

Steve, if you thought your comment was likely to anger a lot of people wanting to make a living as writers, this may result in waves of apocalyptic fury from everyone else.

Free writing "from the heart" is not necessarily "better." In fact, most of it is just bad, bad, bad. How many people here have suffered through an open-to-everyone writing workshop with no vetting for membership?

Yes, we can all hate on Dan Brown and J. K. Rowling, but these pop hacks are Steinbecks compared to the painfully confessional, over-artsified, or clumsily plagiaristic stuff that gets enthusiastically distributed for free by people writing solely for enjoyment.

"Oh, your weekly submission is a YA story about a teenage girl who slays vampires? Neat. I'll put it next to what seems to be a therapy session transcript and the ... uh ... four pages of color terms apparently intended to describe emotions."

The cold calculus of the marketplace can certainly be discouraging, distasteful to our artistic sensibilities, and even result in some uncomfortable outcomes (like megastar advances draining publishers' coffers) but the underlying reality is that for-profit professionals like agents, publishers, and booksellers constitute the only barrier between readers and really, really, REALLY bad writing.

I always find it interesting how people argue they don't believe e-books will ever replace the physical experience of book buying-beause that's how it works FOR THEM. But. What if it isn't about us? What if Big Business is looking forward to other potential, perhaps bigger, markets as well...

I look at my eleven yr old and his friends who've grown up with iPods and wii's and computers in the classroom and parents without landlines. I look at my teen and his friends with their smartphones and netbooks and anti-old ways attitudes. I look at my six yr old niece and her friends who've never seen a payphone and worry about their enviromental footprint. They're only ten, twenty yrs from adulthood and all that consumerism. And they LOVE their technology.

I have to think Big Business is looking at them too and thinking of the future...

Another perspective:

I have a note posted at my writing desk (mainly precipitated by the recession and my gargantuan freelancing tax tab) that reads, "BUY NO BOOKS." I've been borrowing from the library or buying cheap at yard sales all year.

You should know that when I saw the "10 hotly anticipated titles" link on your post, I clicked. I'd pay $10 or less for a book, and I'd feel good about it. I didn't know I was killing publishing as we know it.

Are there enough of me to mediate the impact?

If I need a doggie vampire suit, I have one-stop shopping? Nice.

The Qui?... This is not good. I'll let you have the jokes, that's just bad...

:) Smile it's Friday!

Okay, I'm still trying to understand this. I re-read Nathan's post. So, the big thing about this is pricing for books will come down.....

Hmmmm......

The positive is that means books may reach more readers, and readership could go up in general.

The negative is the bottom line for publishers and independent bookstores, and possibly regular bookstores, may suffer.

Although if readership increases, it might not.

Either way, this will probably strengthen e-publishing.

So, we'll just have to wait and see what happens and how this affects things.

But authors - e-publishing is our future, from my perspective. E-publishing gives us greater profit, more control and ease of access. So, most likely, this will be a good thing for authors, not a bad one.

I think.

I'm bemused by the whole brouhaha of e-books and publishers fearing the deep discounts of retailers. What is stopping publishers from selling their own e-books? The science fiction/fantasy publisher Baen Books (www.baen.com) does exactly that.

In addition to distributing their own e-books (http://www.webscription.net/default.aspx) They sell them in multiple formats so every reader on the market is served. Plus the books are DRM free so the purchaser of the book is able to transfer it to any other device when the first one dies or becomes obsolete or gets replaced with better technology.

Their customers are loyal and pirates more or less leave them alone. Part of that is due to Baen's Free Library of E-books. Most of these are the early books in a series so readers can decide if they want to invest the money, time and emotion into a multi-book series.

Sounds like a pirate friendly place, that looses money hand over fist, doesn't it? According to Toni Weiskopf, pirates looking for pirated Baen books are directed to the publisher for the book in question. Baen Books takes the view that few pirated e-books floating around the web are a form of advertising. It also happens to be true. Every author in the Free Library has a back list that keeps selling in dead-tree versions.

I think as readers and writers we all need to speak up. See, WE read blogs and know what happens from rock-bottom pricing. Realistically, starving artist actually starve (along with everyone else in the food chain). But when I tell this to an avid reader--I mean a purely recreational reader--they're shocked. People hear you've written a book and say, "geez, why do you still work"? Um, it's all about lights, heat, and power, friends. I advocate affordability, but only when it's necessitated. If you can spend $5+ on a coffee, you can spend $20 on a book. Period. I don't support resale, borrowing, or libraries because I have the $20 (from my day job). I also tend toward the up-and-coming instead of the already on top. Like everyone, I evaluate my book purchases but I feel a certain sense of charity when I pick up the new Joe Schreiber instead of say a Stephen King. Just my two cents. Take a stand and people will follow--if only a few.

When do you see the average sales for a commercially-published e-book hitting in the thousands per quarter? My agent suggested that as a possible alternative for a book of mine that isn't selling to print publishers, but I'd rather have sales in the thousands than in the hundreds.

I'm excited about the Nook, but I still won't get an e-reader until I know for sure the books I buy will remain mine, even if the authentication servers go down and the company goes out of business.

What's an independent bookstore? I dimly remember something like that. Didn't they all become used bookstores already?

I just have to say: I LOVE bookstores. I love them. It's an entire experience. Something akin to going to the movies in my mind. A place you can get lost in potential adventures. Get away from everything for awhile. Even the vibe in the air is different. Deep chairs to peruse. Then you scuttle away like a pirate with your "booty"; a handful of treasure just waiting to be unleashed.

As far as cheap prices, well, I tell ya's, maybe it will be alright for midlist because folks will be more prone to buy that extra unheard of author with some of the extra money..?

Basically, I think everything is gonna be alright. Don't get your panties in a bunch. Write that story. Sing your song. The money will come.

Everything must change some time. It's inevitable. With the book industry it has been an unusually long time coming. With the growing dependence on everything technologic it only makes sense that books will lean that way too. But like the movie theatre there will still be a niche for printed books.

The way I see it there are three ways to meet that change.

1. Fight it. Stomp your feet, shake your fists at fate, sulk, mope, and blame somebody, but do your best to avoid it.

2. Ignore it. Pretend it isn't happening and go on as usual until that path comes to a dead end.

3. Embrace it. Live with it, deal with it, and change with it. Try to make it work to your advantage.

I'm going with three. I don't expect to be the next Stephen King or Dan Brown. I'm not writing to be rich and famous. I write because I love to, it makes me feel more alive than anything else. Making a partial living off it would just be a plus.

Even if my only option turned out to be self publishing on ebooks, I would still write. Maybe I'll even be able to pay the phone bill off it.

First, thanks for the link to the dog pirate costume - I plan to buy one and I don't even have a dog :)

Second, I would challenge all writers, published, not or in between to find a book this weekend and purchase it at full price. Yes you heard me full price. Support an author. Oh and spend some time searching - really look for that gem which WalAmaTargEars doesn't deem a bestseller (aka a pure breed) and find a "mutt." Mutts often make the best reads!

Hmmm. I, for one, have no desire to read an e-book, no matter how adorable "the" device is, because ebooks make my eyes go blurry, and I also am bored by Walmart's list of cheap books. That's not to say that I doubt that the publishing industry is in for some changes. However, as Marshall McLuhan says, the media itself speaks a message. Warm, smooth, papery codexes aren't done speaking.

Gotta agree with J.Nelson Leith on that one.

People romanticize "writing from the heart" like it's some kind of mystical experience. It's not - it's a rough draft. You write out the book the way you want it, but the way you want it isn't necessarily the way readers want to read it.

Most of the slush that never gets published is "from the heart", as is most of what's run through author mills. But the ones who've written it see it as their "vision" and don't want to hear that there's anything wrong with their baby.

Write from your heart; edit from your head.

Well, let's say ebooks do make print books extinct. I don't think they will, but let's say they do, or they get to the point where it is print books that are rarer buys than ebooks. Anyway, my question is, if that happened, what would stop the publishers from just selling directly to the public and forgoing the expense of bookstores?

Just an odd question I came up with as I read this post.

Jodi

welcome to the music world. When itunes made one song worth only $1 it ruined the music business. If you by only one song from an album it should atleast be worth $5 or more. If you buy the album you should get a deal-- but a record only being worth about $10 is the same as a book being worth $10-- really the same amount has probably gone into making both.

Get ready for the big one-- you have just begun to see the ride wait until your industry gets a huge hit like the record business.

"Write from your heart; edit from your head." Josin L. McQuein

I love this! Get your heart into that first draft, and then polish/edit/revise so that what your heart meant to say shines forth.

And your paragraph shows that brilliance, JLM!

First, thanks Josin. You actually expanded on what I was saying, but I agree with where you took it.

Also, in response to several comments above: Why do we have to diminish the legitimate complaints and concerns people have as if they are simply throwing tantrums, being "glass half empty" pessimists, or afraid of change? This is not an honest or rational way of engaging with a serious issue.

This is particularly true of the cross-market gamesmanship of Wal-Mart, which is not simply a technical innovation that can be adapted to. If super-actors who are effectively insulated from free-market accountability through diversification can undercut the profitability of one market in order to profit in others, this poses a very real existential threat to the parasitized market.

No dedicated bookseller, large or small (never mind independents) can survive if a cross-market actor consistently sells under cost. It essentially transforms books into a marketing tool for selling Wal-Mart/Target clothes, soda, and dishwashing liquid.

All the happy thoughts in the world won't save a sabotaged market: only carefully considered anti-trust measures designed to foster genuine, itemized competition.

Why do ebooks cost so much. I recently looked up the price of the current book I'm reading. Same price as the paperback. Call me old fashioned but I'd rather be holding a paperback for the same price. I know it's the future, but I'm not about to pay the same money to beam down some 1s and 0s to my reader as I'd pay for a good old fashioned book.

J. Nelson Leith,

I couldn’t agree with you more! I don’t think it’s pessismistic to look reality square in the face. That’s the only way to deal with it and make effective changes. Reality is what it is: the good, the bad and the ugly. Sometimes it’s more ugly than at other times, but you can’t succeed unless you look at it without flinching.

When this conversation started yesterday, I checked two Forbes lists for 2009: richest billionaires in the world and richest Americans. The Walmart heirs actually fill the spots for 11th, 12th, 13th AND 14th top billionaires in the world, as well as the 4th, 5th, 6th AND 7th richest Americans. If they want to corner the market on books, they have the money to accomplish it.

To Anon 2:43 AM

I'm with you all the way. I borrow books, or get them from the Library.

Some people cannot afford a $25.00 book, and from the $25.00 to $30.00books I've read from the Library, they just weren't worth it.

Those inflated prices are there to pay all the middle people involved and keep the big names big. Some of us just can't afford to support that.

So be as judgemental as you want for those of us who don't buy books, but not everyone has that extra cash to fill agents, publishers, authors, distributors pockets with those over inflated prices.

Good for Walmart and others who are making it affordable.

Wal Mart is evil. I strongly recommend you read the above Pulitzer Prize winning series by the Los Angeles Times. It tells you everything you need (or feared) to know about the real cost of "low prices."

Nathan,

I work at a Barnes and Noble and I had to laugh at your "THE" Alex, "THE" Que and "THE" Nook and that you didn't have a problem with "THE" Nook. The reason I thought it was hilarious was because our managers and everyone else at BN is having fits about us calling it "THE" Nook. According to them it is not a noun but a "lifestyle". I pause for laughter :) So as you are emphasizing the "THE" with the Nook, we are constantly being reminded that it is just "Nook". And the jokes about Que? What about the Nookie jokes? :) Thanks for your great blog!

J Nelson - I understand your concern. I have seen free books that are pretty unreadable. But I was talking about something other than just technical proficiency. People wruiting for money will write what they think will sell. People writing from their heart will write what they care about. In the long run, I think the things people care about are the things most worth reading about.

An outstanding example of this is the book "In His Steps" by Charles Sheldon. This is a classic of Christian literature. It is reputedly the number 2 all-time Christian best seller after the Bible. Sales estimates range from 8 million to 30 million. It is credited with popularizing, if not inventing the phrase "What Would Jesus Do". Sheldon cared so little for commercialism that he failed to register copyright and the book was picked up by several publishers who published it on their own and gave him nothing.

Some have said that the quality of the writing is poor by literary standards, I wouldn't know. I found it on a free site the other nuight and read several chapters. It is compelling.

Live Like Him!

-Steve

As an emerging author the situation feels quite drastic.

I can go into a local store and purchase a book by a well-known author for less than I can get my own discounted books from my own publisher.

How can we compete. No one wants to buy an 'unknown' when a 'big' author is so cheap. At this rate there will soon be no new books. The market will close down

I vote for Travis Erwin because of the line "David Copperfield is a guy who makes shit disappear."
I want to read this book because of that one line.


I want to read the other finalists' books as well.

My vote for Travis Erwin. Difficult to choose with all diverse styles and subjects.

I vote for M.
Congrats to all!

I vote for M!

Travis is my choice. But it's a tough choice!

Congrats to all of the finalists, it was a difficult choice. My vote goes to miridunn. So beautifully written!

I vote for K and A. My interest is piqued... All entries were nicely done.

Congratulations to all the finalists.I would like to vote for "M". It sounds like a fantastic YA novel.

K and A gets my vote. They were all good, but that's the one I'd probably buy at the bookstore.

Miridunn made me cry...

Big congrats to all.
My vote goes to TRAVIS Erwin for fabulous voice. That was a tight, funny, engaging opener.
But I also want to say I loved the intriguing hook of Lisa Marie's and the haunting flow of Alana's openers.
I was wowed, too, by Chuck H, LT Host and mythicagirl in the honors list. Hope to hear more from all of these people.

This is tough, I liked a couple of them, but I'll go with M.

I also liked M but in the end I have to vote for TRAVIS ERWIN....love that wry humor!

Congrats to all top 10 and runners up - all fabulous. Is it just me or does it seem the quality in the 2nd super para contest was even better than the first time around?

Tough vote. M's was the first to catch my eye, and Josin's, but I think I'll give my chit to Alanna. But it's close. A squeaker.

Peace, Linda

My vote goes to Travis Erwin.

I was torn between his paragraph and Josin's. I definitely want to read both their books. So, Nathan, please make an announcement when they're published! :)

Congrats to all the finalists!

My vote goes to Simon! But they were all great!

I vote for Josin L McQuein.

K and A

Wow. I mean really.

I want to READ THEM ALL but I guess if someone put a gun to my head, I would want to read these three first:

M
Josin L. McQuein
Maya/pretty cyrillic maybe chinese character

Followed by:

Simon C. Larter
K and A

Congrats to all of the finalists! My vote is for M.

Good luck!

I had a hard time choosing between Alanna and miridunn -- both did a wonderful job. So evocative. Great work!

In the end, though, Miridunn has my vote. The character she created, I want to follow and learn more about. Whereas the second-person lyricism of Alanna's is gorgeous in this paragraph but very, very hard to sustain over a whole book. (I assume the whole book doesn't go backwards, and that's fine, but if it isn't second person then this opening may be a little misleading.)

Congratulations, finaliss!

My vote: miridunn's.

I'm going to be a weenie. I can't vote. I think they are all really good, and any choice I'd make would be based on my own genre preferences rather than quality.

Congratulations to all the finalists and the runners-up!

Oh, and the post is hilarious too!

Maya gets my vote!

Travis Erwin!

My vote's for M.

There aren't nearly enough histrionics going on here. I guess I'll have to fill in the gap. *Ahem* Fie, Nathan Bransford! A pox upon you! A plague on both your houses! That is, if you have two. If not, just the one then. By not choosing me, you have cheated yourself out of a bazillon dollars! Perhaps even KAzillion dollars! Fie, I say. Fie!

Oh, and I vote for Maya. ^_^

Yeah Jenn and Amalia! My vote is the same. K and A. great first line.

Congrats to all and to Nathan's bleary red-veined gorgeous eyes!!! Thanks for the chance.

Josin L. Mcquein. Seriously funny, would love to read the book.
Congrats to all.

I narrowed it down to K and A, Travis Erwin, and miridunn. Truthfully, I'd be most likely to read the books by K and A or Travis Erwin, based on what I would imagine the rest of the book would be like, but this contest is for best first paragraph, so I must vote for:

miridunn

I read all 2500+ entries and that one haunted me. Surprised Axelrod's not one of the finalists. Thanks for the contest!!

Miridunn. I don't know if it's because I'm a mother and losing a child (even one unborn) is something my mind cannot fathom, or what, but I've thought of that paragraph ever since I read it.
Congrats to finalists and honorable mentions!

Word verification "elater." Like an electronic see ya later!!!! Or a person who can make you extra happy, an elater.

These are wonderful! Um, are you going to count all these by hand? I vote for Simon Larter. That smile made *me* feel cold!

re: voting-

Yeah, I count by hand. I had a poll for one of the contests and it was too difficult to manage because it was impossible to keep tabs on who's voting.

I try to make the vote based as much as possible on merit rather than popularity, hence the manual voting, no anonymous comments, and prohibition on campaigning.

My top choice, bringing goosebumps to my arms is

miridunn

Second choice is Josin L. McQuein. Hilarious :)

All are great, but definitely Alanna's.

These were all stunning, but my vote is for Miridunn. Congrats to all, and thanks for the comp, Nathan!

Congrats to all! My vote goes to: Travis Erwin.

Been reading the comments (Thanks for the very kind words) and I have to say to Cara Powers that I think you have confused my paragraph with that of L T Host. Sorry if that means you wouldn't have voted for me but I need to set the record straight. My paragraph had way more than two sentences.

Word Ver: harboner - not touchin' that!

I vote Travis because it made me laugh

Travis Erwin

I vote for M

Travis' reminds me of Catcher in the Rye, one of my fave first paragraphs (even though the book didn't sit well with me) and it's not just the mention of David Copperfield.

So Travis all the way!

Gotta be Travis. Hooky as hell.

Josin L. McQuein :)

Congratulations to the finalists and hons mens.

My vote is for miridunn.

Maya. Such beautiful language.

Another M vote.

Congratulations to all the finalists and everyone on the longlist!

I'm voting for Travis Erwin, but they were all very good.

Thanks to Nathan for doing this contest.

My vote goes to Miridunn.

I vote for Lisa Marie. It really held me all the way through. :)

My vote goes for Travis Erwin. Intriguing and humorous, a combo I love.

On a side note, congratulations to all the finalists!

CoD

Simon Larter

My vote goes to Alanna. Definitely the best out of the bunch though many were enjoyable (particularly Josin's who made me giggle)

I vote for Larter. I love the subtle tension between the characters, and between them and their environment. The descriptions are very vivid.

I probably would have voted for Travis because his paragraph was exquisite - except for one certain four-lettered word which entirely ruined the voice.
So I'm voting Josin L. McQuein. Been there, experienced that, and if the book is anything like the vampire excerpt on her blog site, I want to read it.

Congratulations everyone!

My vote goes to Maya.

Miridunn.

(Second choice Josin.)

All excellent but my vote goes to Travis Erwin.

Simon Larter.

I vote for Travis.

Partly because I love his paragraph, and partly because Miridunn's paragraph made me cry too much.

I cast my vote for "M": My name is not Mara Dyer, but my lawyer told me I had to choose something...

Travis, because he's making me want to read a type of book I normally wouldn't look for. And I live in Texas :)

Glad I stumbled on this blog. Some really good paragraphs here.

The one that most made me want to read more was K and A's and their "Arrival."

thanks, K and A

Alanna. Yep.

Definitely Alanna.

My vote goes to: M.

Thanks for a fun contetst, Nathan!

My vote is for Travis Erwin.

What?! Really!? We are absolutely stunned, honored and humbled. Thank you, Nathan!

This is incredibly difficult to choose between these paragraphs!

Travis: love the humor.
Simon: nice way to hook us from the start.
Lisa Marie: we love how you captured this aspect of loosing someone you love (plus mystery – great!)
Maya / מיה, simple: yet stellar!

So… top choice… er… um… hm….
Okay: Travis (it’s certainly different!)

Also, those honorable mentions were fabulous!

Chuck H.: we’re not entirely sure what’s going on, but we’re intrigued to find out.
Miss Tammy: anything that starts: “John Davis smelled like Play-Doh,” demands immediate attention.
Bill Baynes: this caught us so off guard! Love it! Just a few lines, but already it’s got us thinking.
Henriette Power: like the imagery.
atsalem: again, we like the imagery.

What a fun and interesting contest. And it’s so exciting to see people enjoying our writing!

My vote is for Travis Erwin!

AH! 666 Comments! This post is cursed by the Devil! *fixes this problem by posting*

My vote's for Travis! Josin at a CLOSE second. :-)

Congratulation to everyone who made finalist and runner-up... and congrats to all the entrants for being brave enough to enter.

And congrats to Nathan for reading them ALL. ... You deserve one of those Swedish massages. ^^

One strong yeehaw! vote for Travis Erwin, a man of few words with a humorous kick and a hint of fun to come.

My vote goes to miridunn because it is so wonderfully heart breaking.

Travis!!

Josin

I'm going to vote for Josin L. McQuein because that's the one I'd be more likely to read. I don't know how else to pick!

But that said, K and A's gets my vote for being the most intriguing, M's is...wow! (but I don't care much for thrillers), miridunn's amazed me for the unique and very poignant way she portrayed grief, so quickly, (so well, in fact, that I'm not sure I WANT to keep reading), and Lisa Marie's has, perhaps, the most unusual aspect of all of them. Just the idea of a grieving husband desperate to know what his wife was about to cook, in an attempt to re-connect with her in some way. That is so powerful and so...specific. Not some vague and general "He missed her." In fact, I think that paragraph is a writing lesson in and of itself!

Wish I'd written any one of them, but it's M.

Miridunn

Travis Erwin is my favorite.

Congratulations all!
I am torn between miridunn and Josin L. McQuien... Such different books, but both so amazing!

Wow!! These are all really good. I suppose if I can't vote for them all, then my pick would have to be K and A.

Best of luck to everyone. The finalists were all great.

I like the Travis Erwin. Clever and cool!

This is totally weird. I voted earlier today, and SAW my comment posted, but now it's gone. I only mention it because maybe it's happened to others; check if your vote is still there...

I vote Maya!

Simon C Larter. Well done, I'd like to read more.

Alanna. With heartfelt congratulations to all, I vote for Alanna. Her paragraph leaves me in wonder . . . and wondering.

I vote for Josin L. McQuein.

Tough choice. A toss up between Travis and M.

I vote for Travis. It made me laugh (although my real favourite didn't make the lists).

Congrats to all. Good stuff (even though some were too long -- sorry)

First of all, thank you! so much for the honorable mention. I'm beyond flattered, and psyched to keep going with my story.

I'm casting my vote for K and A.

Several different styles. Not my favorite style, but for writing I vote Alanna.

K and A. I must know more.

I vote for M.

Thanks for doing this, Mr. Bransford! You're awesome.

I will be deeply humbled by this--right after I AM TOTALLY THRILLED AND ABOUT TO BURST! Thank you so much for the vote and votes and comments.

Lisa Marie

Lisa Marie gets my vote...I want to know what she was cooking...

k and a

Not seeing my comment, so forgive me for the chicago-style voting, but I vote for K&A - it does exactly what I want in a story, starts getting me immersed, asking questions about what's going on (in a "I'd like to know more about that" way instead of a "huh?" way)

Midirun's is also impressive, as is Josin's.

Still prefer K&A for sheer immersive fun, though.

Some very talented writing here. If I were standing in a bookstore reading the first paragraph of ten books (which I do, all the time) and these were my choices, there's only one I'd buy and want to spend several hours reading.

Travis Erwin. The man has voice. It's compelling.

Maya is a likely runner-up, but I'd have to read the second paragraph to make a decision.

Josin L. McQuein is my vote.

I vote for Travis Erwin. This paragraph grabbed me and made me want to read the book. I especially liked his metaphors.

I vote for Josin L. McQuein

Though I also really like K and A

"VI) I will be sole judge. Unless I chicken out."

I read them all but...
I had to use you rule and thought I'd turn it over to someone who likes to read but doesn't 'write'. I thought I'd step aside and see what happenes.I promised I wouldn't argue...um, I mean debate. She liked Jackie's and made little notes for me and sort of graded them. That was fun too.

Thanks for hosting.
-d

Of ALL the entries the one of Meridunn seems to me the most promising for an intimate and revealing much-needed novel about this topic.

I vote for Travis Erwin.


I have to add that i was excited to see David Kubicek in the long list. Of the entries I was able to read his had been my favorite so far.

I vote for miridunn!

My vote goes to Travis!! Congrats to all the finalists, good job all!!

M!

Alanna

M gets my vote.

Miridunn for me please. I was glad to see it was a finalist

I am voting for M. I was totally hooked by the idea that a high school student who is taking the SAT's has a lawyer who advises her to use a pseudonym. I want to hear what she did to rack up a body count!

My vote is for M!

my vote goes to M! i love the intrique!

I'm casting my vote for M. This paragraph is very intriguing and I'm dying to know what is going to happen next!

If was reading the book right now, I would never be able to put it down until I finished it. This looks like so much fun to read!

Wow! I Love M. What a great entry and it really makes me want to read the book! I'm curious about her story.

Josin McQuein gets my vote.

(Nathan, thanks for The Office reference. It (almost) makes up for all the @#%$&^ the Top Model references).

I liked Maya's style but M. was the one that had me most interested in her story. So, M. is my vote.

I vote for Travis Erwin!

Tough choice, but I'm going with Alanna.

M

My vote's for M; the world needs more [fictional] snarky teenaged serial killers.

My vote is for Lisa Marie. (I want to find out what's on that list and why.)

Congrats to all the finalists.
I vote for Travis.

I loved K and A's.

My vote goes to K and A - I really want to know what happens next!

You may just have to publish all ten of these works Nathan!

Josin L. McQuein

Tough to pick just one but M gets my vote. She hooked me and I want to know more!

Dwight! Shame on you for taking credit for Nathan's hard work!

I vote for: Josin L. McQuein

With congratulations to all the winners.

TRAVIS!
TRAVIS!
TRAVIS!

His paragraph came screaming out of 2,000 some odd entries and knocked my flippin' socks off! Loved it!

Somebody sign him please so that I can read his book!

M! Out of all of them it's the one I want to know the rest of the most.

MAYA.

My vote is for M. I love true crime, and very seldom like fictional crime stories, but I'm intrigued now. Teenage killers fascinate me.

They were all awesome, but M's first sentence hooked me immediately. A close second would be K&A. Thanks to Nathan for hosting.

Vote easily gots to Alanna. Wow.

I also loved Henriette Powers and mythicalgirl both in the subfinalist list. If you are not published yet, please keep the faith and keep going because it won't be long. Not on any list, but one I liked was Wendy Sparrow.

I appreciated almost all the finalists and subfinalists but am puzzled over one popular finalist which I personally found melodramatic and predictable. Without saying which one, I wonder if I'm the only reader who feels this way?

I vote for Maya / מיה

Congratulations to all of the finalists and honorable mentions, and congratulations to everyone else for entering!

[Word ver: "whecul"— as in we all cull out the winner!]

They were all terrific, but I vote for Travis.


Great contest, Nathan.

I have to go with Josin and "Geometry Purgatory" because it stuck with me for days after I read it.

Congratulations to all the runners up, and finalists. The only thing I will miss from not being chosen as an honorable mention is that supply of beets. I really love beets, and tthe presence of said commodity makes or breaks my enthusiasm for the salad bar anywhere I go out to eat.

I really can't comment on ALL the submissions; I read through the first about 800, and gave it up as an insurmountable task. Kudos Nathan for your frequent posts of "keep them comming" through this week.

I gotta tell you though, after skimming through some of the submissions after that 800 mark, I was pretty grateful I only have a following of 4 on my own innocuous blog.

So to repeat, my vote goes to Josin McQuein, though it was a really tough decision. They were all such excellent submissions.

.........dhole

word verif: sycoman. Yeah; psychoman pretty much describes Nathan Bransford at this time, but he loves his job, and we love him, so . . .

Okay, this is harder than I thought. I can narrow it down to four pretty easily (based mostly on my personal reading taste--Josin, M, miridunn and Travis.) But picking ONE? Much harder . . . The thing with these four more than any of them (for me, because I can see why they are all finalists) is that the voice in the paragraph already shines and speaks to me that I really want to find out what's up with the character--I instantly care (or am at least interested) in the main character.

But I'm going to pick M.

Why? Because in one paragraph she (or he) managed to convey voice, character, and leave me (the reader) with questions I want answered.

*tacks a vote to Alanna*

M is for MORE.  Hook, voice, stakes...sold. She has my vote

Another vote for Josin L. McQuein

Alanna, of course!!

My vote is for K and A.

And I must mention my second fav too, Travis Erwin - love it!

Tough all as all are great but in the end it has to be Josin but ....

My vote goes to miridunn.

My vote goes to Josin L. McQuein.

Crap this was hard! But, I have to vote for Travis Erwin. His paragraph drew me in and I wanted more.....

an honorable mention from me to M...loved that one as well.

Good job all!

My vote is for miridunn.

Congrats to the finalists and longlisters, and thanks to all who entered. It has been a very enlightening experience. :)

These are all awesome... I'm so impressed and hooked... great, great openings.

But I have to vote for Travis.

I'm voting for - Jackie Brown.

Travis was a close run second.

Mild grumble ~ I only got to read four books this week; I read every entry. (It took the same amount to time as three books: so, much harder to find my place!)

I vote for M. Intriguing write up!

Another vote for M!

Jackie Brown

The choice for me comes down to K and A, M and Travis.

Tight body suit aside, K and A's piece tailored off a tad towards the end.

In the end I can't vote M because the phrase nom de plume irritates me and makes me think of French class in high school.

That leaves me no choice but to VOTE FOR TRAVIS. I do not like the word fraught either but the line " a dude that made shit disappear the best hook of the bunch.

And Nathan, your dedication to we wannabes forced me to do what i said I never would. Start a blog. Since I had to register for this contest I might as well begin tossing out my flavor of rancid baloney to the world.

Simon Larter is my vote. I love the way he uses descriptions in such a fresh way. "A smile that could chill a martini"....absolutely brilliant.

M gets my vote, I really like the sound of the main character. I look forward to reading more!

My vote is for Lisa Marie. Excellent choices!

Very hard to choose between these.

I've been trying for days.

Maya

Very tough choice.

Travis Erwin

I cast my vote for K and A.

Thanks for having this contest!

My vote: M.

Is M's a true story? I'm ready to read the rest. I choose M.

My vote is for Alanna...hauntingly beautiful!

Two leapt out at me: M and Josin L. McQuein. Tough choice but Josin gets my vote.

K and A.

(Though I loved Josin's as well. It was tough.)

I was pleased and surprised when a critique partner alerted me that my paragraph had made the longlist. Thank you very much, Nathan, and thank you, too, for the opportunity. It is sometimes hard in this business to receive recognition for one's work, and your contest is such a fun way to try for it. I think you should win all the beets for your tremendous effort! Short of that, my vote is for miridunn.

K and A. And if it becomes a book I want to read it.

My vote is for Alanna.

Well done to all of the finalists and those garnering an honorable mention.

Nathan, you must have a very special sort of mind to be able to distill all those entries into a final ten, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Congratulations to all the finalists! How exciting! I can't wait to read the winning entry!

I'm torn between M and Miridunn, but I guess I have to give the final nod to Miridunn. It wasn't easy!

While I appreciate Josin McQuein's distain for geometry, and miridunn's poignant words, this B student NEEDS to hear "Mara Dyer's" story.

M's paragraph catches my attention and leaves me wanting to read the rest.

My vote is for K and A...
Loved it!

Josin L. McQuein

i like Maya but my vote is 100% for "M"

Voting for miridunn

Dawn Marie,

Re. the voting - many of the contestants entered through anon or name/ID. They can't participate in the voting.

Also 800+ votes isn't too shabby.

But yeah, this contest stirred things up abit. :)

Nathan - this is totally off topic, obviously, but I saw a preview yesterday. They're turning the Road into a movie. Looks scary - brrrr. Think I'll skip that one. You can tell us how it was. :)

miridunn

Dwight would know that Scranton does not have a sheriff. He is a volunteer deputy for Lackawanna County.

Now that you're going to be published, you have to be held to a higher standard.

Josin L. McQuein

Simon C. Larter. There's a lot packed into that paragraph.

My vote goes to M!

Tough call -- but I go for Alanna, who made me feel that I was in the hands of a master storyteller. I remember reading miridunn's as I went through the submissions, though, and that arrested me. So much good writing. Congrats to all.

Wonderful competition!

Voting is closed! I'll leave the thread open so people can discuss the finalists, but votes will no longer be counted.

My vote is for M. Hope I'm getting it in in time!

Miridunn.

Blatant bias since he is my most beloved brother. But I do think that his paragraph is the best. Simon Larter's paragraph drew me in and I really do want to read the rest now.

Go ahead brother!

I vote for Travis Erwin.

Travis for me!

Stunning! Congrats to all. I vote forrrrr
miridunn!

I almost voted for Alanna. Very, very close. Both incredibly good.

I wanted to give a shout out to Vanessa in honorable mentions. Loved your simple, yet catchy opening paragraph. :)

Congratulations to all the finalists! It's really hard to choose between them. (I haven't read the other posts, so I hope I'm not too late to vote.) If we can vote for one, I say "Lisa Marie". If we can vote for two, I will add "maridunn". (Hopefully, I spelled that right.)

If anyone wonders, these were the two I'd like to keep reading the most. They stick with me.

I realized I was too late and was going to delete my posts.

My last post said: "Oh. Too late", since my name's here anyway.

Now I've left three useless posts. :)

Alanna

Not my genre but I'm very interested in reading more. Nicely done. Thanks for sharing.

My vote is for M.

Mara Dyer who are you and what have you done? I really want to read more.

FAULKNER is better than STEINBECK?!? OMG, we might have to throw down.

However, you clearly know a fine paragraph when you see one. Travis, you can feel free to query us too.

Rej-

Yes, it makes me a traitor to my beloved California, but Steinbeck's simpletons/characters (but wise! from the earth!) kind of drive me crazy.

Thanks for the terrific contest, Nathan. Congratulations to the runners up, finalists, and Travis. Ride that confidence wave.

And a salute to all who entered. Brazen chutzpah, and/or trepidation overcome are necessary attitudes for publishing success.

-AKA Terry DeHart

HMMMPH.

Woo-hoo, Travis! I loved that opening.
Nathan, thank you for what you offer writers. It was fabulous to read these entries and then why the finalists made the list.

Congratulations Travis and all the finalists!!

And thanks Nathan for the time you put into your blog and all your phenomenal insight. No one knows how you do it, but we're lucky you do :)

Travis, I just knew yours would win. I really liked your Amazon contest book and this opening paragraph grabbed me as much as that one did!

I also voted for Travis! YAY ME! Uh...I mean YAY TRAVIS!

Huge congratulations to Travis, and infinite thanks to Nathan, for hosting such a valuable contest!

And to everyone who voted and/or commented on my paragraph, I have to echo Maya; it felt incredible to know that strangers were hooked by my writing. And then to learn that some of those people have published YA novels I love and are admins of blogs I adore? Wow. Just...wow.

So thanks again- it was an honor to be chosen as a finalist and to be voted as a runner up. I have learned so much.

I read some first paragrpahs of my favorite books this weekend and concluded that Nathan is right - many great books are born from not-so-great first paragraphs. Many of them wouldn't have had a chance in this contest. But, I did learn something about writing and every time that happens, I become a better writer. So, thank you Nathan for that!

And congrats to Travis (although I stubbornly still think that Maya's was the best).

Hey, lol, that was me prattling on about McEwan. Of course, any time some idiot prattles on about McEwan or McCarthy in your comments it's a pretty good bet it's me. I figure Vegas is giving it out at 3/2.

And, of course, congrats to Travis! A fun contest for everyone. Except Gordon.

Wowie Wow Wow! That was an incredibly helpful post! Thanks!

Can you go into more detail about "gimmick"s?

Congrats to Travis and the runners-up!

Thanks for doing this, Nathan! I didn't submit a paragraph this year, but it was an entertaining and educational experience, as always!

Congratulation, Travis.

Thank you, Nathan.

This was an interesting exercise. I learned quite a bit from it.

YAY! Congratulations, Travis!!!

Congratulations to Travis and the rest of the finalists!

I got a lot out of this contest, not least the experience of trying to read over 2500 posts! (I bailed around the 1600 mark.) As for that Bulwer-Lytton entry, I assumed it was a joke and nothing more. It made me chuckle, anyhow.

I thought there were some very good first paragraphs there, and I'm not surprised by Travis's win - it is a memorable conceit. Be interested to see where it is taken.

As one of the ones that used the word 'blood' I cannot help but wonder why the preponderance of that word. It, and things associated with it, are everywhere at the moment. Though I find the vampire genre moribund, it is popular, and I'm guessing many of those entries that used that word will be in that genre. Mine wasn't, but reading it without further contextulisation I can see that it might be mistaken for such. What this first paragraph contest has taught me is that even when you think you've got your piece crystal clear, it might not always be so. Thanks Nathan for inadvertantly getting me to think about my work in another light.

Congrats TRAVIS!!!

Honestly I had trouble voting so I didn't. ALL of the finalists were incredible! The caliber of the entries was impressive.

I have a preference for LIKING SF so I would have voted for K and A (is that two authors?).

What struck me about the contest was how educational it was. I fell head over heels for the one-sentence paragraph. I researched it even.
Found this:

http://preciseedit.wordpress.com
/2009/03/02/the-one-sentence-par
agraph/

I looked up one-sentence openings in many of my favorite books.

I also then realized that as a stand-alone, the one-sentence paragraph in comparison to more information can be too dependent on what comes next, even if it does a fine job setting up a story, mood, character.

But Bill Baynes knocked me out! His one sentence paragraph was just so elegant. Wow! Double Wow!!

Overall, the *chosen* paragraphs struck me by their elegance.What beautiful and talented company alights here.

And I got the added bonus of getting lost in word clouds.

Such sweetness.

I am new to your blog and learned SO MUCH just with this one entry. THANK YOU.

I haven't read any of the entries, but would like to congratulate Travis just the same.

Hopefully I can join the next contest.

Congratulations Travis!!! Keep that smile on. I hope this makes your difficult year much better.

And thanks Nathan for a great contest and a bonus of expert advice.

Everyone else, lots of wonderful first graphs. Keep writing and learning.

Congrats to Travis, it really is an excellent paragraph. Well done, man.

I have a quick request for Nathan.

I love all the advice and you're usually really clear and easy to understand while you dispense your wisdom. I was wondering if you could expand on this a little:

"And on the trust issue: I shy away from anything that feels like a gimmick. A novel is simply too long for gimmicks. Not only do they get exhausting, anything that is clever merely for the sake of being clever comes at the expense of trust between author and reader."

What would you consider "gimmicky" and what would you say is "clever for the sake of clever?"

I'm not sure I've got the right idea about what this means. For instance, if Billy Pilgrim is unstuck in time, would that be a gimmick? How about... well... anything by Chuck Palahniuk? I love all of his stuff as well as everything Vonnegut wrote, but they always include some little quirky thing ("Rant" actually did seem too gimmicky) that makes the story tick.

Thanks a lot.

And to Gordon - Dude, lighten up a little.

Congratulations to Travis! Congratulations to everyone who participated. If you're like me, you've learned a lot these last few days. My deepest sympathy to Gordon. You missed the point, dude. Too bad.

Word Ver: geuts - scottish for intestinal fortitude?

Re: gimmicks, I elaborated a bit up the thread. It's impossible to generalize too greatly about them, though, because every paragraph/story is different.

Hey- I voted for Travis- do I have the makings of an agent? : )

Congratulations to all. I will join Mira in expressing that this was a hard contest for me too. On one hand, it gave the week a level of excitement it wouldn't have had, but on the other, my paragraph didn't have any of the mentioned over-done elements. I could make myself crazy trying to figure out why it wasn't picked (but I won't). I admit I'm disappointed for myself, but I still enjoyed the contest- especially the pro-Faulkner part!

Very well done, everyone!

Mira, if you are still around, don't be bummed! You are in good company. I saw many excellent writers submit paragraphs here.

It would be interesting to know if any of the finalists' entries were made up for this contest. I would imagine that the more compelling openings have a complete story behind them, but I may be wrong.

This was such a great learning experience. Thanks Nathan and everyone who participated. So much fun!

Travis, congrats! I hope this encourages you to finish the MSS.

Nathan, thank you for running the contest. I missed most of the first part but caught up pretty quickly and enjoyed it immensely!

M, Congrats on being shortlisted. I just wanted to point out something. Your paragraph reminded my of Jodi Picoult's 'Nineteen Minutes' which is about a teenager that kills his classmates and it mentions Death Cab for Cutie somewhere in the first chaper (maybe second). While I'm sure you haven't read it, it made me instantly think of it and almost made me think you were trying to emulate her writing. I wasn't going to mention it as I'm 100% sure that's not the case but if I were you and there was a chance other readers might think that way, I would hope that someone would point it out.

Kia x

Congratulations to Travis and to the runners-up! I really felt like there were a lot of great entries -- so many that I, er, was a weenie when it came to voting.

I really enjoy the discussion about what makes a great first graph and also how important that is to the balance of the book. What I take away from all this is, yes, the first graph needs to establish voice, trust and chops. But a novel is loooong. It's about sustaining a level of story and craft over many many pages. Every paragraph is important, but it's also just one of many.

Word verification: "piker." Which is what I'm in danger of becoming if I don't get to work.

Nathan,

How on earth did I only find out about your blog last week? Thank you so much for running the contest - talk about a crash course on how to write an opening! (A crash course with good timing, I should add - for me, anyway.)

Seriously. Thank you.

K.Olson

Congratulations to Travis Erwin and all the runners-up!

(I just returned home from a 4-day whirlwind of a vacation in Southern California, so I missed most of the winner announcement excitement here on this blog. I had stopped in briefly to congratulate the winners, but haven't yet had time to read the entry paragraphs or comments. Looks like there’s a lot to read.)

Nathan, I am amazed that you could put in so much time in helping out authors and even more time with contests such as this, and you get comments like "Gordon Jerome."

You know, we all love you, Nathan!

I haven't read the 114 comments before mine, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'a gimmick.' In your post you note that a novel is too long for gimmick and that an opening that is cute for the sake of being cute doesn't work.

I wish I understood this so that I don't do it! :)

Hooray Travis!
Also, just a reminder to miridunn and Jackie Brown to write those dang things so we can find out "what happens next". Promise?

Thank you too Nathan for being a cyborg. Your blood must also run with enough caffeine to wire a city.

ok, off to write (songs).

Ctrl+F, guys. Ctrl+F.

Hurray, Travis!

Great notes, Nathan, very helpful. Ignore the haters.

Congrats, Travis. Fun entry, and well done!

Congratulations and well done, all!

Thanks for all your voluntary work in hosting the contest, Nathan! I didn't get my paragraph posted in time, but it was a great learning experience nonetheless. Congrats to the finalists and winner!

Travis - after reading your comment, I'm really glad you entered and won this contest. When I see your memoir in the window at Borders, I'll feel like my vote helped propel you to finish it.

Nathan - a belated and heartfelt thanks. I read about 80% of the entries, and doing that gave me a glimpse of what it must be like to be on the receiving end of countless queries.

Reading the finalists and long list helped me understand aspects of my own writing that need improvement. Lots of agents and editors tell writers what to do or avoid, but by running this contest you're showing us.

wtg, Travis! Congrats!

*admires you undyingly*

:-)

Congrats to Travis

Nathan,
Thanks again for all your effort. Your gifts of time and sage advice are not lost on all of us out here with stories to tell.

Gordon,
Did you really need a contest like this to learn that reading taste is subjective?
Most of us lost the contest too. Boo hoo.
Get over it man.

Just wanted to add my CONGRATS to Travis and my thanks to Nathan for running the contest.

And thank you for writing this sentence: "anything that is clever merely for the sake of being clever comes at the expense of trust between author and reader." You put into words everything I've been trying to identify as what's wrong with my own novel. I've skipped depth and that all-important third dimension for the sake of clever quips. I lost sight of the most important thing: tell the damn story. Thanks, Nathan!

Congrats Travis, and to all who made the finals.

Nathan...

Did you read the thousands of entries on your kindle or your iPhone?

Congratulations, Travis!
Thanks, Nathan, for the contest. It's great to see such a range of creativity among writers. :-)

Congrats to Travis and all the finalists - this was a great contest. Oh yeah, and Nathan rocks because I learned about word clouds.

Congrats, Travis!
Thanks for another great contest, Nathan. I'm grateful for your list of trends in first graphs as well as the reasons you chose your finalists -- sound advice for for the thousands of us who didn't win! Finally, no one should fret about not winning; it's always better to lose than not to try!

Travis, you rock. Bask in well- deserved glory. Ditto all the finalists. And everybody who entered. Lots of really creative stuff here.

But non-finalists shouldn't take this as an excuse to wallow in a slough of despond. As Nathan said, sometimes positioning kept a piece buried with similar ones when it might have been a standout in another spot. Lots of reasons something excellent might be ignored in such a quick reading.

And blog-god that he is, Nathan is just one (albeit superpowered) person. Taste is subjective.

My entry came from a story that has already won two other contests. It didn't place here. Does that make me a loser? I don't think so.

It's just that this is Travis's moment. And he deserves it.

I can't believe you were able to spot a previously published entry. Who ARE you?!!

What a fun contest. I found that it was easier for me to spot what didn't work (for me). But the amount of paragraphs that could certainly be made into books I'd like to read was overwhelming.

Also, I got goosebumps for the two people you asked, "seriously, email me." Cool for them.

Your blog is so fun.

Good Job, Travis.

Thanks, Nathan, for the contest.

Congrats, Travis!

And, thanks Nathan for letting us all in on what draws you into a novel! I've really enjoyed this contest!

K. Found the thread expansion on gimmicks. Still thinking on it. Hmmm...

If you run out of post topics, some specific examples of this might be helpful.

Thank you, Nathan. Fascinating lessons. And now I know what "trope" means too.

Congrats, Travis! Excellent, indeed. And thanks to Nathan for all the great first paragraph writing tips. Most helpful.

First of all, Travis, well done! and I'm glad you are happy.

Alanna, I love "backwards" writing and your paragraph filled me with appreciation.

Nathan, I have learnt a lot from you today and regret posting a hurridly typed first paragraph after shying away from revealing my actual manuscript.

I shall now serve myself up a slice of humble pie, with sauce.

Travis!
The opening made me smile - I did want to know more.
Jackie - your paragraph sent chill down my spine - I would love to read the rest too. It is haunting.

Thanks Nathan, a great learning experience, as usual.

Obviously, you have, again, decimated my writerly self-esteem and confidence. :)

WORD VERIFICATION: jackf? Is this you replying already? lol

Congratulations, Travis. Well done, sir. And all in the space of six sentences, too!

Congrats to all the other finalists as well. Each of the paragraphs was arresting in its own way, and the variety was amazing!

For may part, like I said last week, I'm a finalist, and that's enough. It's those little bits of validation that keep us going as writers, isn't it?

And Monsieur Bransford, many thanks for the opportunity, and for the encouragement you've given me. That'll keep me going for a good long while!

Oh wow TRavis! Congratulations! Even though I wasn't even close to being chosen, this contest gave me an incredible incentive to go back and re-examine my WIP. THANK YOU NATHAN! My husband is getting tired of hearing me talk about you and your blog everyday, but I just can't help myself.
Travis, I'm not having a great day today, but reading your comment, so full of rightful pride and happiness in having your paragraph selected, gave me a smile.
This is the best blog ever!

Yay for Travis and Fabulous for Josie and others. Okay, I voted for Josie but it was a great contest. I am so happy my paragraph did not have any common glitches. Fun for all. Thanks, Nathan!

I vote for Simon/Thank-god I can get more e-mails now. I learned that the the drama I accused everyone else of having is my problem/My grandson is Nathan Isaac Stoller/when I sent you Natie my synopsis disguised as a query it spit out funny/w lil' #'s all over the place/ I'll send it again from the micro-space. I want the male stripper sheriff to give me a massage next year/and for my phone to ring/ "Hello is Francy there/I want to critique your manuscript." At sixty-two yrs. old I should be able to know that I'm a first rate poet and that fiction/non-fiction is just as difficult as poetry. Thank-you all/ Alanna/Maya/ Myra/Justin/Anon.1/11/and 111, I'm going to get busy now and create a novel that when I close my eyes I can see every word perfect.

Congratulations Travis and all the finalists. Such great entries.

Thanks for running the contest again Nathan, it's really interesting and a great learning experience.

This contest has been very,very, very, mega-helpful in my own writing. Thanks Nathan!

Also re: Gordon, if a genius writer is going to be completely discouraged from ever writing again because they didn't place in a first paragraph competition on a blog, I doubt they would last long in the publishing industry anyway.

Yeah! Congrats to all the runners up and especially to Travis. Your paragraph was a stand-out and very fun read.

:)

I'd be very curious to know: How many of the finalists and honorable mentionees have finished their respective works and how many are still works in progress?

Would you guys be willing to tell us?

Congratulations, Sir Travis!

I look forward to buying your novel.

Congratulations.

Well done Travis, I totally loved your opener...they were all great, but yours rocked a little bit more!

Congratulations Travis and to all of the finalists.

Thank you Nathan for having this contest. I'm looking forward to the next one.

Congrats to Travis and all the finalists!

Nathan - once again you educated with style and humor. Nicely done (and thanks!).

I was wondering if you saw any qualitative differences in the entries this year, compared to para-contest numero uno? More vampire entries? Different genre weightings? More similes?

Since I know you're really a computer, your mechanical brain should be able to spit that right out.

:)

Thanks again for a great contest!

Faulkner achieved his immortality in the same fashion as Gertrude Stein: by generating "literary fog" (in Ralph Keyes' words) that people were too intimidated by to call the nonsense that it was.

Steinbeck rules all; Faulkner's mother was a fish. And that's the game!

:D

Interesting result.

I liked Travis' voice, but I couldn't get over the literary allusion to David Copperfield in the first passage of a 'coming-of-age' story. Being such a well-established characteristic of The Catcher in the Rye, I'm certain I would've compared every aspect of the remainder of the story with Salinger's.

On the flip side, it was presented in a slightly different context and the writing was capable. Perhaps the story goes on to sufficiently stand alone.

Regardless, congratulations to him and everyone who submitted. You put yourself out there and win or lose, you should be proud of yourself.

The remainder of Travis' non-fiction account is just as stellar as the first paragraph.

Congratulations to the runner-up finalists, too.

Thank you, Nathan, for hosting an exciting time for striving writers.

Congratulations to Travis and the finalists, and to everyone else for entering. Nathan, you amaze me. Thanks for the contest.

I feel like I'm repeating many others, but the insight and tips were very helpful and I really enjoyed being a part of this contest. I look forward to trying again next time.

Reading as many of the entries as possible and re-reading my own entry afterward, was kind of like speaking a thought out loud that had been running around and around in my brain getting blown out of all proportion: It put it into perspective and helped me look at it more objectively.

Congratulations to Travis, the runners up and honorable mentions!I'm incredibly impressed with the overall level of talent and skill presented here.

My heartfelt thanks to Nathan; nice to meet you. People's comments are precious to me! I am suitably astounded to be a finalist and runner up. Congratulations to Travis -- who I was rooting for. This wonderful exercise, which allowed me to hear so many voices of support, has added more coal to my little engine! I THINK I CAN!!!!!Please find me on twitter @miridunn or visit by writing place at www.miridunn.blogspot.com . Now excuse me while I go google "query letter" :-)

John @4:32

FWIW - mine is still "in progress", and the remainder of chapter one has very little to do with Geometry class. That's me dropping the reader something familiar before the world goes pear shaped.

I have read everyone's replies who addressed me, and I've posted those responses on my blog. I would have posted them here, but I can't leave a comment that long.

You're welcome to check out my replies if you wish. My blog can be found through my name/link as I'm sure you already know.

Sincerely,

Gordon

Well, I'm back. Thanks for what you said, Dawn Marie and Sheila.

Gordon, I read what you wrote. I agree with some parts. However, I think you missed the boat on Nathan's motivation. He really was just trying to do something fun on his blog - as well as give folks both a chance to shine and learn about writing. There's nothing machevellian here. Not even if you spell machievellian correctly, which I can not.

For me - like I said, this contest stirred up alot. I'm still processing it.

However, I'm also - still - very happy for the winner and runners-up and wish them every literary success!

Congratulations, Travis! Well deserved indeed.

Thanks for your hard work, Nathan. I learned a lot from this, and it was great fun, too!

Jeez... I didn't break a single one of those rules! and you couldn't fit my paragraph in ANY of those cliched boxes... did u even read mine. L. T. Host's? Seriously? Have you read the Human Stain?

Travis's was funny... sure... but it kinda fell into your favored formula, which I've now decoded. It goes something like this.

[This and this genre] does [this and this] [this way], but I am going to do it [this way].

I mean really, do we have to explicitly tell you how our story is different from all others in the genre right in the first paragraph? That just spells cheap gimmickry to me.

Congratulations, Travis and everyone else who made the finals (and everyone else who remained honorable).

oh god... i just became the whiny loser...

my bad.

congrates to all the winners seriously, despite shortcomings they were excellent contributions... and travis' was really funny.

Congratulations to Travis and to all the finalists!

Great contest, and amazing on Nathan's part to surf through so many entries.

Congratulations Travis! Though I picked M, it was a close call and I was going back and forth.

I picked four as the standouts, and they all made in to the five finalists. Woo hoo! If I fail as an author, maybe in my next career I'll be an agent . . .

(just kidding.)

John,

My novel is only about 15,000 words done, but because it's historical fiction this comes after a lot of research and probably a novel's worth of note-taking. I'm certain there's more research in my future!

Maya

Word verification: copping, which I suppose is what I'm doing right now... copping to the fact that my novel isn't close to being done yet.

I would have loved a query critique, but it's probably only fair for that to go to people closer to being done!

Did no one else notice that 9 out of 10 finalists had either an M in their name, a W (an upside down M) or a double nn (basically an M)?????

I'm changing my name to Mirium Waminni

And I've just worked out why!....it's subliminal messaging and I know for a fact Nathan's office looks out over a Mcdonald's placed on the shore of a small pond

Think about it!

Thanks again for the contest, Nathan, and an even bigger thanks for the detailed explanation behind your selections. Lots to learn from.

And huge congrats to Travis, who I voted for. Out of all of them (each reaching a level of accomplishment in their own right) I felt his was well-edited and did the job without overwriting. There was a genuine quality to his writing that made me feel as though it really was plucked from a book he was working on. I also got the sense that he wrote with the reader in mind.

Again, and I hope this doesn't come off harsh, most of the paragraphs were so densely crafted that "I wasn't able to lose myself in the paragraph and forget the hand of the author who was writing it." I was exhausted by a few, and felt an entire book of overly dense prose would wear me out before long.

But congrats to all the finalists, and well done, Travis.

Congrats, Travis!

After viewing the finalists, I can definitely see why my paragraph didn't win :) It's not that my paragraph is bad (at least I don't think so), and didn't use any of those common tropes Nathan mentioned, but the paragraph just didn't stand out...especially when compared to the FANTASTIC entries that made the final list and honorable mention list.

Congrats everyone!

Gordon,

Thank you, but I'm afraid I'll have to pass, however I wish you all the best in your future endeavors.


John,

My honorable mention is complete but not done, since I'm an edit fiend. It's also not my first novel. It was a tough choice between entering the urban fantasy intro or a contemporary about a teenage girl coping with prison life, but I went with the UF because of the "verily" use as I'd hoped the writing style plus the subject matter would make it stand out.

I'm going to utilize Rick Daley's really cool query site http://openquery.blogspot.com/ before I send a query out on the UF, though I've got a couple other manuscripts out on partial submission.

TRAVIS! Congrats again dude! Love the fish pic!

Thank you for taking the time to hold this contest! It's fascinating to see the thought processes behind your decisions. The finalists and winner put up some fantastic openings, and I'm glad I got to participate alongside them!

This was heaps o' fun! Thanks for another great contest, Nathan!

Mira: I relate. Sigh, move on, sigh. Donuts.

Gordon: huh.

Travis: Good onya!

Congratulations, Travis! Well done. I voted for Maya but had three "winners" in mind and one was you. It was a tough decision. : )
Congratulations to all of the finalists, and thanks to Nathan for doing this. As always, it was so much fun. Looking forward to the next one.

Oh yay! I feel so proud that I picked the winner!!!!! Way to go Travis!

YAYY TRAVIS! you go Guy! whoop whoop whoop!

What fun this was - thank you!

Congrats Travis!!! The voice of your character reached out to me way before Nathan named you the winner...

Gordon, my boy, if a writer left a piece of paper white because they couldn't handle a friendly, well-intended competition-I have a feeling that same writer (with or without Nathan's blog)would have left that page blank long before they wrote "The End"

I have learned so much from this stupendously, ultimate blog-and if, by God, I choose to leave my paper white-it's because of my own insecurities that have NOTHING to do with an agent's feedback of my work--I truly feel bad that you failed to learn from this contest---All writers need thick skin...so you best get used to it...

And Nathan...Luv u man!!Thanks for doing this, you're a stupendously, ultimate agent!!! I love this blog so much, I'd pay to read it!! But I hope you keep it free :)

John,
My honorable mention is spit shined and ready to go. (as long as I don't look at it, then it's subject to change ;)

@John 4:32

My honorable mention (Titled Frankenstein's Little Angel, by the way) is finished but I'm not finished with it. Firstly, it's too short at 27,000 words but I have hopes of being able to extend it to about 50,000 without it sounding like I did. Anyway, thanks for the interest and thanks again to Nathan and everyone for this contest/feedback.

:D

This blog always makes me smile. Thanks for the contest and wonderful resource of first paragraphs to learn from.
Also, thanks guys for the interesting discussions.

:D

Congrats to Travis and all the finalists! And thank you, Nathan, for an informative and inspiring contest.

Sorry I'm late to the party, Nathan - I'm in the process of moving this week - but I just wanted to say "Congratu-freakin'-lations, Travis!"

Congratulations to Travis and the runners-up and all the others who made this contest not only a wonderful learning experience but an enjoyable literary escapade, as well! And huge thanks to Nathan for making it all possible and allowing us a glimpse into "the agent's mind"--so helpful as we move forward with our project.

In response to those asking about where we are in the writing process. This is our second novel we have written together (yes, we are a writing team of two) and it is in the beginning stages. All the comments have been so encouraging and inspiring that we are extra-jazzed to continue! It is especially great to have this support as we embark on our new venture since our first novel is still unpublished (napping in the shadows of rejections) and it's so exciting just to know people are reading *something* that we wrote, enjoying it and are eager for more. To those of you who wanted to know when you can read more of Adelaide's adventures, and whether that pirate ever gets his ship, feel welcome to click onto our work-in-progress blog for updates.

Cheers, all! And thank you again, Nathan!

atlastakeaim; john @4:32

You read the first paragraph from my work-in-progress; 21,000 words down, 89,000 to go.

Thanks for your interest in its future and, yes, I promise to finish this, my first novel. I ignored self doubt's e-mail this morning and blocked his addy. I knew he'd be back, but he ain't getting in.

this contest was fun to be in, and to follow! I always try to make my first paragraphs sound as little like a first paragraph as I can. Defnitely no waking up, no mirrors, no gimmicks. Just, you know, here we are. This is the novel, and this is it starting. Why should it be different from the rest?

Congratulations, Travis!

Nathan - thank you for the honourable mention. I've only recently discovered your blog and this is my first time participating - fantastic entries, thoughts and discussion from everyone. I'm so glad I entered, and that I took the time to read all the comments left (my boss, however, may disagree). Great stuff! The finalists were all outstanding, and I look forward to seeing what they produce in the future.

John @ 4:32: I'm halfway through my second draft. Right between 'maybe I'm a word magician!' and 'at least I can burn it for warmth'.

Please finish your story Alanna and find someone to publish it...Your writing is inspiring and haunting and I think you've got the talent....

Anon: 7:56 PM Well said!

I'm still baffled as to where this all came from?

Nathan or others who agree with him have not pointed to where authors are saying that agents hate writers. Nobody seems to have an answer for this.

Nathan explained he wrote this blog before the contest, so I can only assume it has nothing to do with the contest.

I think when anyone puts out a statements such as Nathan did in this particular blog, he needs to back it up with at least a few facts.

Is this just ranting on his part? I don't know. We all rant, editors, publishers, agents, writers, marketing people, but to put it out in public with nothing to substiantiate it, of course he's going to get some people who disagree.

I think Nathan does an awesome job of blogging, generous with his advice and information, but like everything else, you cannot take his word or anyone's word or advice as Gospel, as said many times over, this is a very subjective art form.

I'm still waiting to see where writers claim that agents hate writers. I know my agent loves books and encourages his writers and if he ever made a statement like that with no facts behind it, on a public forum, well, it would not sit well with me or with many of his authors (since we have discussed this blog today).

anons-

I'm not going to give these people the traffic by linking to them or forward you e-mails I've received. Believe me or don't believe me, it's completely beside the point of the post anyway.

I can be sensitive at times, but my real problem in the blog and online world is that I don't get emotionally involved. Sometimes I pick fights and join debates just because I know I can win and enjoy the exercise. So I have to take a step back and ask myself if it's worth the potential of offending someone. I usually have to keep it within my friends who know me too well to take anything I write seriously. Or go back to arguing with my characters. :P

Nathan, it's not a matter of not believing you, and no, I for one do not want to see any private email exchanges. I guess, I just wondered where this was all coming from.

I belong to writer groups, and read many good (non flaming) writing message boards and blogs, and never once did I ever read a writer say that he/she feels agents hate writers.

That's a pretty strong statement you put out there, and more than a few of us are curious as to why you would lump many writers into this category if a few drama diva's queens or kings are ranting about agents.

It's obvious if one is in this business they love the written word and want to work with wordsmiths to get the best possible book out there.

A few rants here and there are not indicative of how the majority of writers feel about agents.

In summary, I guess I just didn't see the point of your blog today, other than you felt you needed to get something off your chest to the few people who perhaps were disrespectful to you in private.

I'm still confused though. :)

anon-

I didn't lump everyone in together. I said it's a small, vocal portion who actually gets vocal about those sentiments. I'm confused why you're confused.

mira-

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it.

I don't think you're a Philistine, Nathan (although you clearly suffered from a temporary lapse in your usual good judgment when you rejected my recent submission)!
(JUST kidding!)

Seriously, though, I find your blogs very helpful and supportive. I even gave you kudos recently in Mike's "What is your biggest frustration as a writer" contest (Mike's Writing Workshop - Yahoo Groups).

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go Google "Luddites."

Carol B

All this talk about getting books you can't sell...I've read this blog over a million times and it just won't. Sink. In. I feel like you'd have to be a descendant of McCarthy just to get a book deal. It is disheartening! I am 31 and I'd like to get a book deal. Yeah, it may take some time but I don't want to be 50 and publishing my first book! I want to have years and years to write. Ugh, just a wide-eyed novice, I guess.

Writers are artists and artists are notoriously sensitive. Regarding agents, my experience has been exceedingly positive. There are certainly those less willing to share themselves with unpublished writers, but so be it. There are many who do share, and their generosity, support, and great information far outweighs the slights from others.

And you, Nathan, are a shining example of what an open, generous, well-informed agent is all about. Those who don't get you or get agents in general are sorely missing out. IMHO.

Thanks, Mira! I appreciate your kind words. I’ve recently realized, while surfing the web, just how many writers there are out there! Good Lord, the slush piles must be mountains high. Earlier today, a writer in one of my writers’ groups posted part of an email they received from an agent in response to their query. It was a long paragraph, more like a formal review, praising their book. It was so complimentary, I thought the author was about to be offered a six or seven figure deal, or to have their book entered into auction for bidding. Not exactly. The last sentence in the agent’s email stated that, in today’s market, the agent wasn’t sure the book would sell enough copies and they were therefore not going to represent it. The writer sounded calm, just shared the information matter-of-factly. That’s where most writers are at, I think. I’ve seen those kinds of posts in writers’ groups several times within the past couple of months.

Nathan - very sincerely meant.

Very.

Gawd! It is YOU who is the sensitive one!

Given that 95% of the posters on your blog are slobbering butt- lickers who heap sycophantic praise on you at every opportunity, the few who registered some discontent are the ones who you center out? Is your ego so tender? Don't you have better things to do? How self-possessed can one be?

And you're wrong about Jordan totally. He never suffered in silence at the many "slights" he had to endure, he actively sought retribution at every turn, he humiliated his foes on and off the court at every turn, including physical assaults, in your face boasting and most recently evidenced by his pathetically whiny hall of fame speech where he called out and picked on every petty offense he'd "suffered" going back thirty years. Jordan was adept at putting a ball through a hoop like no other, but my admiration for him stops there.

Backfence -

What a small world! I'm also a member of Mike's Writing Workshop and used to write for Mike's newsletter. I've been very busy, so I haven't stopped by or submitted articles for a while, but that's a very large, active group with some great discussions.

Nathan, I'll just leave any more opinions on this to myself, it's obvious that one has to agree with the majority on this forum.

Have a great evening.

Peace.

Don't rule out mental health issues. There are higher rates of depression (and thus panic and anxiety and agoraphobia) and Bipolar Disorder (thus the above, plus irritation and agression) among writer than among any other group, with the exception of maybe poets. Factor in a few Borderline Personality Disorder folk and you have most likely a chunk of your most sensitive types.

If Bipolar people make up 2% of the entire population, their rate among writers is much higher (no statistics available but this is an educated guess), then a sizeable number of your readers are under theinfluence of neurological disorders that make them oversensitive, reactive-- and prone to long rants.

I'm anonymous because I have Bipolar. I run an online support forum for Bipolar Disorder and this year am leading a group into NaNoWriMo. This is my secret life. I would lose my job if anyone knew I had Bipolar (so there are valid reasons why we are paranoid sometimes) :)

All my best to you. :)

Anon 9:20......no. It's not worth it.

Marilyn, I hear you, but times pass. The economy will turn around, and that writer will find a home for their book - if it's that good - no doubt about it. :)

So, now, I've posted tons on this thread. Time to stop. Besides, I have a mid-term tomorrow. It's on chapters 1-9. I'm debating. It might be a good idea to actually read chapters 1-9. I think I'll wander toward the book and see what happens.

Nathan, thanks very much for the opportunity to talk all of this out.

lol. My word. I do appreciate the anon's help in proving the point of the post.

Nathan, I think you are coming across as unprofessional and "sensitive." Steel yourself, Nathan. lol

Not everyone is going to bow down and agree with everything you say or advice in the publishing industry.

Just like not everyone is going to love a writer's work. You say you've been accused of hating writers in your blogs at times. To use your own advice - "Steel yourself sensitive Agent!"

I know it's hard to resist a group of people you probably will never meet adore you, but for the few who don't think you are the God of all Agents....STEEL YOURSELF! lol

I've never posted 3 times in a day but I've finished my ms and I'm bored - I'm waiting on beta readers and need a week of downtime before I start my next ms so I'd just like to say...

Anon@9:21 - I'm certain that you do in fact have a story in you somewhere or you wouldn't have found this blog. You just haven't found it yet - but I'm glad you're here.

Most of the other Anons after that don't deserve the energy of feedback and prove that Nathan is a saint for keeping the Anon function.

And then anonymous comments were closed.

Thanks, BofA, I appreciate the sentiments but let's just let anon fade into the blue yonder from whence he/she came.

I deleted my previous comment because after another review, I realized that it is unlikely the Anons are the same person. (The timing of their posts are too close together)

Sorry second Anon.

But still - my comments about Anon. 9:20 stand.

Late to the party as usual...and, wow!

What I've noticed is that the writers who approach their work with a professional attitude are the ones who tend to take rejection the best -- not that rejection is ever easy or fun, but they don't personalize it the way that that, oh, a certain departed Anon did. It's not easy for a lot of us to arrive at that place of professional detachment -- it sure took me a long time to get even to that neighborhood (oh, and Mira, I am an INTP. Not sure how that factors into your theory).

To the Anon who is 31 and doesn't want to get his/her first book deal at the age of 50...excuse me why I go laugh. Or cry. Or drink. Or perhaps some combination thereof. You know what, it comes when it comes, if it comes. Setting arbitrary deadlines is a recipe for unhappiness, in my experience.

And to assuage one of the other Anon's concerns, I am a very happy client.

Although, as I understand it, Michael Jordan was an absolute jerk at his Hall of Fame induction...

Mira, I just wanted to say that I actually always look for your comments here and I truly enjoy reading your writing! I mean, I know commenting on a blog isn't exactly your publishing dream, but you have a Voice... I think you have that writing magic that will some day draw a lot of people to your books. I mean, who knows, maybe your first book will be a memoir about being a writer cobbled together using your comments on other people's blogs... wacky idea but I would actually read it. :) Don't give up! I would be disappointed if you stopped writing!

Nathan,

I wonder if I'm the only one that sees the irony in this. A significant theme of this post and the comments has been people being supportive toward you in the face of mean things various overly "sensitive" (or is it "insensitive"?) writers have accused you of. But, as you point out, you are also a writer, so some sensitivity on your own part is surely allowed. :)

-Steve

Writers, for good or bad, represent the The Aloneness of Craft. And of the Business.

Agents are often part of a team at an agency. Assistants who were promoted. Or publishing professionals who jumped ship from being...

An editor, who is part of a team at the puiblishers. Assistants who were promoted.

Writers are sensitive because we work alone. Because we dangle by one thread, reaching for another that everyone refers to as the "luck" of being published, with oblivion in between.

When a writer's completed book doesn't sell, she/he is devastated personally and professionally. Agents sell yet another client. Editors edit yet another book.

When a book doesn't sell, agents and editors go on with their careers. The writer disappears... alone.

Sometimes you'll hear us screaming on the way out. It doesn't hurt anyone but ourselves -- because, professionally, ourselves are the only one in publishing we can hurt.

Nathan, anyone who thinks you give writers a hard time needs to get out more.

I'm a hard nose older guy, but your blog is an almost perfect blend of advice and guidance -- stern at times, but always useful.

Then there's that other agent . . . :-)

P.S. Carthaginianites:

Aren't really known for anything?

You have got to be kidding. It was the direct descendants of same who founded the town of Blaine, Missouri, if I'm not mistaken.

And, yes, Blaine does in fact smell very much like the sea.

Okay, I just popped over here to read this morning, but I have to post because my verification word is "graill".

Considering the topic here, sometimes it seems like we're all after the grail, doesn't it?

If you have a child, not everyone will think it's cute.

If you Join the army, someone will shoot at you.

If you write, not everyone will think it's some celestial text penned in golden angel's blood by the 12 muses.

Sensitivity is not restricted to artists, just that art, by it's very nature, is a public forum event and therefore garners more focus and opinion.

For example, if someone walked up to you in the street and made and said "You know I can see where you were trying to go, but this route is much longer and doesn't have a view of the canal", you'd be pretty affronted. If you happened to be of the mind that the route you were taking was the single best route and the other ways were just cheap and tacky and for gaudy, foppish people, you'd probably fly into one.

Art, sport, TV, literature: all these things are designed for a public medium, regardless of whether or not they make it.

TO bastardize a quote from Henry Ford: Those who think they will or will not be offended by a thing, are probably right.

Word verification - Fuxpi: what is said when you can't remember 3.14285714285714

The fact is, you can't be sensitive about your work if you plan to make your living as an artist. Art is inherently subjective. Example: I thought Juno was a BRILLIANTLY CRAFTED movie, best dialogue I've heard in ages, and handled the issue of teen pregnancy with grace. Yet, FOX News insists that the film GLORIFIES teen pregnancy. I'm right, of course, but still :-). No matter how brilliant your story or writing are, someone will absolutely DETEST it. Might as well prepare yourself now, or its going to be a long road.

I don’t think many athletes are sensitive about their ability – it’s not subjective, like writing. They get feedback every time the ball leaves their hand, foot, racket, etc. An athlete KNOWS what he or she can do. (S)he’s not going to play a game and have some people say it was brilliant, others say it was okay, and others say it was the worst piece of garbage they ever saw.

Athletes are allowed to develop an inner confidence that is more elusive for writers. That’s why we, as writers, are more sensitive, I think.

Susan Quinn said: "I noticed right away my sensitivity levels zooming to the stratosphere. That could easily be facetious, but it is not - I became more sensitive once I started putting my heart, soul, tears and laughter on the page. So I sympathize with you tender hearts. I do. Really."

So true. It was the same for me. I was completely normal until I started writing (age 24). Before, I never used to cry over a movie no matter how tragic. After a year or two of serious writing, I first noticed a change when I suddenly cried at an old Star Trek TNG episode because it was so moving. Nowadays, I cry every time I watch Matthew Cuthbert die. I cry all the way through the third episode of (Gaskell's) North and South (BBC). And don't even get me started on Phantom of the Opera. Deluge! I used to make fun of people like me. ;o)

People often ask me if I write to "express myself." Asking what they mean by it usually reveals that they believe writing must be some sort of outlet or even therapy to help a person deal with stress, pain, whatever. But it's the other way round: the writing is the cause of much of the pain, stress, anxiety, etc. (Whether the result is worth all that pain and stress remains, for me, yet to be seen.)

But I believe without pain there can be no art.

And if people think the writing biz is tough, they ought to spend a little time in other fields.

Part of life is figuring out which criticisms are legit and intended to assist you, and which are someone else's 'unfinished business' that you really need to disregard.

Great post.

I think sports is a good analogy for writers, and it's the one I always have in the back of my mind when I'm about to give up. As a writer, you have to be a marathon runner, not a sprinter. When I'm lifting weights, it's the last few reps that make the difference (and that's when it's also the hardest). I ALLOW myself to feel down--I'm as sensitive as the next person and every single rejection makes me feel lousy. But then I get out there and start running again.

Shiela, have you ever talked to anyone ever about sport? Opinions over the quality of a performance or inate ability is probably THE driving force behind its media success.

The fact that two people can watch the same game with the same outcome and completely differ on their opinions on who 'should've' won not only underpins the allure of thing but also underpins the fact that some Sport is an form of art.

Sportsman live and die on confidence, sometimes from week to week, hell, sometimes in the middle of a match!

Writers are not special. It's the medium and the ungainly timeframe that matters. If you spent 4 months polishing your car for an international motor show, the feelings would be just as distressing.

word verification - Ecents: online money

Thanks for writing this. It's right on.

T.

Intense sensitivity is not just a phenomena restricted to writers; artists and animal rescuers make that list too. They all do one thing very well, they pour every ounce of their heart and soul into their work, be it on parchment, canvas or,in the case of the animal rescuer, the dying and abused.

I don't think they feel their emotions any deeper than anyone else but where they excel is sympathizing with another, be it character or creature. They coddle their work like a babe birthed from their own body; give breath, substance and ultimately they want to protect it. And here in lies the problem.

When the rejection form letter come the receiving individual views it as a personal slight. Due to the amount of emotional investment in the work the result is injury. I think Agents should remember that, but at the same time writers have to understand it wasn't personal. It was business.

As hard as it maybe despite the amount of emotional frustration one is feeling you have to retain your professional decorum. God knows that is difficult and I'm far from perfect. I can't count the number of times I've choked on a reply to keep from spouting off at the mouth. I've also shoved my hands in my pockets to stifle the urge to strangle the individual.

We must keep our professionalism when dealing with business. We can not let our emotions over some our mind. Instead take it bottle it up, search for the words then let it out through ink and parchment.

geez! I had hoped my comment was obviously giving my appreciation for Nathan rather than anyone thinking I was serious.

As for wondering if there are writers out there who think agents are evil... I can think of one bitter writer from a writing group online who does believe that and will encourage others not to submit to agents.

If you need more examples, check out one of those agent feedback websites. Holy crap the things people are bitter about- the agent responded too soon, the agent took to long- it is ridiculous.

Quite frankly, there are always people out there willing to hate. I am confused why someone would think there are no writers who think agents hate them. Heck I am sure you could find someone out there who believes Mother Teresa or Ghandi hates them.

Give it a rest.

Claiming literary agents hate writers is like saying primary school teachers hate children.

Great advice. I've just found your blog (living under a rock in Africa can leave a person a bit behind...), and love it.

Cheers
Holli in Ghana

This made me chuckle! Great post Nathan!

My skin is definitely thicker now that I've been around the block a few times. I even requested that my agent send me my rejections while he's shopping my new manuscript. But two days later I changed my mind and told him I'd rather not know. Guess it's not that thick.
I have to constantly remind myself that it's not personal, and to disconnect somewhat from my work but the things one knows rationally don't always make it to the more emotional part of the brain.

Nathan,

I did get a chuckle at how mad one (or maybe a few, who knows, who cares) annons got and directed their ire at you, demanding you produce proof. If they'd bother to read your blog history, they'd see where you've had to close down annon comments many times because someone came on flaming because they didn't like something you did (like who you picked to win a contest) or said (this happens to a number of agents, and many do keep the info on their blogs)

Those who want proof need look no further than some of the old posts on your blog.

Great topic, Nathan. I was devastated when I got my first bad review. I thought I was not talented enough, or even worthy enough to be a writer. But I never slashed out at anyone. And, I looked at it this way. I really enjoy writing. And, the more I write, the better I get.
And, the contest was fun!

Wow! This was a great post and so true.

I really don't want to know people think my writing sucks, but if it sucks, then don't beat around the bush just come right out and tell me. I'll go cry then try to make it not suck [so much] hopefully.

You know, this comment actually sucks! =)

Maya - thank you. That completely made my day, and I copied and pasted it to look at when I feel discouraged. Thanks!! :)

Your paragraph in the contest was just gorgeous. I'll absolutely look for your book. :)

Other Lisa - sorry I didn't mean to imply Rationals weren't writers. And even if I did, I think Twain, Neitzche and.....oh what was his name......alittle obscure, but still....oh, yeah, Shakespeare would just tell me I had no idea what I was talking about.

And you're an Architect? Cool. You're in good company with another obscure one.....oh yeah. Einstein.

I'm an INFJ, so there's a good chance we'd be friends if we met, since we match up. That's kind of cool.

Really, I just popped in to watch the legions of anonymous commenters froth over your sensitive writer-types statement.

LOL
JK
:D
G.

Thank you for this post. I loved the bit about Michael Jordan. Truth is, some people are born to complain (and I have those days as well.)

I couldn't agree more. I appreciate the fact that you take extraordinary care to present both sides of a matter, before you carefully slip in a well worded slice of advice. Obvious advice, that could be far more simply put:

Stop your whining and keep working!

Even tempered humour is a better way to vent, I find. At least it makes me laugh.

It's just as I've always believed, that motive is vitally important. Sometimes my motive is split (1) to have the labor of my heart published--so I listen carefully and edit, edit, edit (2) I, also, write it just the way I know is perfect, print it, and put it in my personal file. I'm new here and agree with the others, please, keep telling us the way you see it. Thanks.

I'm in danger of becoming a serial commenter, if not worse, but one of the comments reminded me of a Winston Churchill quote:

“Writing a book is an adventure. To begin with, it is a toy and an amusement; then it becomes a mistress, and then it becomes a master, and then a tyrant. The last phase is that just as you are about to be reconciled to your servitude, you kill the monster, and fling him out to the public.”

Now, Churchill probably didn't have a hard time getting published, but flinging your work out into the public doesn't have to mean "book deal at a large publishing house".

Several things came to mind when I read this post:
1. I actually have a pretty high tolerance for specific criticism. Either the person is totally off-base and I can ignore the comment, or they have a good point, and now I can change my work for the better. The reason I don't get offended is because the person is trying to help me improve my work.
However, I've gotten upset by a rejection letter for a totally unrelated reason. I spend a lot of time as a science researcher "selling" my work for grants, etc. and am fairly successful at this.I had this idea that a polished, professional, well-researched query would meet positive results. So my response to the "I don't think I'm the best agent for this" form letter, I had a moment of "oh, no! Does my work stink that badly? Was there something horribly wrong with my query? Am I just another one of those talentless pests agents complain about??"
2. I've been on several critique sites where people lashed out at those who didn't give a glowing review. It gets annoying fast.
3. I find it weird that people expect one to be angry at the agent/editor who did the rejecting. One of my friends found out I'd gotten a rejection letter, and proceeded to say some...unkind... things about the agent, who seems like a very nice person. She wouldn't believe me that it was probably me who failed to choose an agent properly or wrote a crappy novel, and swore that the person must be "incompetent". It was really weird-- why would I be mad at the agent or editor?

I realize I'm a bit late in replying, and maybe I'm more zen about this than the average writer, but I take feedback from a professional as having merit. They're in the business. Until I'm published, I'm not.

Sure, I get dejected when I get a rejection or the feedback isn't good, but then I tell myself, "This person knows something about writing. There was a reason (even if they didn't give one) that it failed. So what's the reason? What can I do to make it better?"

But maybe that's also to do with the fact that I am consciously putting myself in the position of student. I'm still learning. When I get it right, then maybe I'll graduate to published.

Last year at a writing conference, I wound up going to a party after the day's events. Present was an agent who, though she'd asked me in a previous year to send in my manuscript, sent me a form rejection when I did. I, slightly tipsy (wine and I have this ... history) told her as sincerely as possible, "Thank you for rejecting me." In the eight months between the rejection and the party, I'd had time to realize that whoa, it really did need a LOT of work.

Naturally the agent was slightly embarassed, probably because when someone says "You rejected me," they're a little bitter about it. I feel bad now for causing her any unintended discomfort. But I really was glad, because it gave me an opportunity to grow as a writer in fruitful and unexpected ways, ways that I hope will help me get published.

I am not sure how familiar you are with personality types? I am an INFP, who as a whole "make good writers, teachers, and psychologists" We are one of the most sensitive personality types as well.

The only thing to consider, is many good writers are in touch with emotion. That's how they know how to write stories that move the reader.

However, I believe sensitivity can be channeled for good. To be an effective writer, as much as you need to understand emotion, you need to also understand how to CONTROL emotion. Sensitivity can be used for good through writing - but when it the business end of things, its time to put the sensitivity aside. A truly sensitive person knows when not to be over-sensitive.

Another facet of the issue is people not being confident in their abilities. Do I care if someone rips my stories apart in a critique group? Of course not! I encourage it. This is how I learn. I find it truly exciting - to find out where my weaknesses are, why they are weaknesses, and how to fix them. HOW INSPIRING! That doesn't mean I don't mourn the death of parts of my manuscripts, but it's hard to dwell on it too long when there is work to be done - and the work that follows is always the most rewarding

My advice is to take rejection and channel it into something productive. Honestly, if you can't take the criticism of a few agents and publishers, how will you handle the rejection of the hundreds of people who may not like your story? Yes - even if you are "good enough" to get published, that doesn't mean that your book will be a bestseller or get five stars on Amazon.

Honestly, a little compassion could be shown towards the Literary Agents and Publishers. Many times books don't even earn back their production costs. They HAVE to be picky. Maybe writers could be a little more sensitive towards the time of these people and the amount of pressure they are under. It's the wrong kind of sensitivity that becomes a problem. As a writer, you have to please a lot of people. You can't be self centered.

A good start might be for people not send in unedited first drafts of their stories.

This is, of course, only my opinion. Which I think is the point. We all have them - so even if we like our story that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to like it too.

On a side note - understanding personality types is wonderful for character development. I always take the Meyer Briggs tests from the mindset of my characters to make sure i truly understand the character i am writing, and also to help me further develop them.

*steps off her soap box*

Just follow the rule that money comes to the writer. That's why I don't waste my money on lots of conferences and classes. I don't think the expenditure of time and money makes a whit of difference. You either have talent or not. Why spend hundreds of dollars to find out you don't?

I am one of the lucky ones because I do not have to work because my wife has done an amazing job of giving me a chance to chase a dream, actually several at once. So I have not allowed my job to suffer or to give up things for my family.

However, I do have to say I almost lost my way a couple of times. My characters became so real to me that I was starting to have very dark and detailed feelings about each of them. Some I loved so deeply that I could imagine a relationship with them, while others I wanted nothing more than to destroy them. I would get so worked up over them that I could feel myself spiraling out of control. These were the moments that I knew I had to take a break, one break came at the point of our 4 year old knocking a glass of water into the keyboard of my laptop. But each time I came back stronger and more resolved to push the book to the next level.

So when is writing unhealthy? I am going to go with when you become some obsessed you find yourself in love with a character or to the point where you want to kill them because you are so attached to the work you are having a hard time separating it from reality.

If doing it doesn't make you happy (most of the time).

Anything that "[ruins your life and your relationship with others]" isn't necessarily the fault of the thing itself.

Might be the manner of your doing of the thing.

The passion for writing can't be ignored. It's a mind and heart thing. It saves me from a bad day. I can write anytime- anywhere.

Yes we should encourage others to write. Anyone can learn to write well, not everyone has a talent for writing. Sometimes that matters.

So many subjective terms here... let me first say that my definition of "unhealthy" is the point where, if the author previously had one (i.e. mentally unhealthy don't fit into this definition), a person looses their grounding; perception of reality, of what needs to be done, fall by the wayside. If it becomes a form of necessary escape and not an exercise of the mind and heart then, I think, it is unhealthy- just like any other activity that does this.

The difficulty with telling people they shouldn't write, or pursue publishing, is that whoever is doing the telling is making that person submissive to someone else's opinion. I, generally, don't think that's a healthy thing for a person to do with their craft. I also am not comfortable in that role of telling people to give up, that requires assuming a responsibility that is no one's but that artist's. Honestly- so much *stuff* gets published these days who would I be to judge anyway? If someone came to me with "Twilight" I never would have thought it would be published, never mind the phenomenon it is; "Ahab's Wife" I would have sworn should win all kinds of accolades and awards; "Not without My Daughter" I would have passed over for the Pulitzer. Perhaps it's fair to say (as an industry professional mind you- and I am not she) "you should hang up your hat" but instead "the market isn't interested in this kind of book right now" or other comments along the lines critiquing that brings attention to the very subjectivity being presented.

Just my $1.50 (pro-rated for inflation).

It's funny - I was just thinking about this question. I finished my first novel not long ago, and found it to be a really fun process - it was fun to find myself thinking about my characters like they were friends and even getting crushes on them.

So then I decided to start on another book, a memoir, or maybe fictionalized memoir, that I've been thinking about doing for a long time. I went back and starting reading old journals as research. I wasn't at all prepared for what an emotional punch there would be for me in reading about my thoughts and experiences from 20 years ago. It's made me kind of depressed and confused, and I can see that if I carry this project through, it's going to be difficult for me. I still want to do it, but I'm a bit scared of what it might do to me, and indirectly to my family if it ends up getting me depressed.

I think I'm going to keep going with it, but I actually asked my husband to monitor me for signs of depression. If he thinks I'm getting too depressed, I will back off and get some distance from it for a while.

As one nears the end of one's life and looks back and reviews, the spiritual things become more important. Success seems just a transient, ephemeral thing and a 'so what?'. If writing is something we've enjoyed and got a thrill from doing, then not a second of doing it was wasted - whatever the outcome. It was totally worth while. It's the enjoyment and the discoveries made along the way that are important.

"As one nears the end of one's life and looks back and reviews, the spiritual things become more important. Success seems just a transient, ephemeral thing and a 'so what?'. If writing is something we've enjoyed and got a thrill from doing, then not a second of doing it was wasted - whatever the outcome. It was totally worth while. It's the enjoyment and the discoveries made along the way that are important."

I love this...thanks for posting it.